View Full Version : Greatest German contributions to the world ?
To continue the series (after Japan (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16125), Belgium (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16861) and the Netherlands (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16865)), let's now consider the most substantial German contributions to the world.
philosophy, classical music, dogs, beer
Miss_apollo7
01-05-05, 16:37
classical music, beer and cars.... :cool:
I put philosophy mainly because i really enjoy nietzche's writing and am looking forward to read the others, hegel and goethe and the rest.....
second i would put cars most defenetely and lets not forget that the man responsible for the conception of the rotary engine, used today by mazda in the RX series, was a german :p.
joel.lindgren
01-05-05, 22:11
BMW, Audi and being the absolute best in the car industry.
Cars, classical music, philosophy and other. I missed beer for some reason, so put an extra point there.
:sorry:
Other being the electronic and industrial music coming out of Germany and it's surroundings, like (early on) Kraftwerk, and (later on) DAF, Nitzer Ebb, Front 242 (belgian), Laibach (slovenian), Rammstein.
:-)
SirJeannot
05-05-05, 23:01
cars, the best in the world from far imo (i own a vw, my father an audi :cool: ), beer (i drown in beer each time i go to germany :blush: ), classical music (the austrians have a part of the credit aswell), speedlimitless highways :p
Miss_apollo7
06-05-05, 22:22
cars, the best in the world from far imo (i own a vw, my father an audi :cool: ), beer (i drown in beer each time i go to germany :blush: ), classical music (the austrians have a part of the credit aswell), speedlimitless highways :p
Yes, I agree with cars too. (Although I own a Toyota Yaris, which I bought recently, and I love).
My parents own a Volkswagen Passat, which is a great drive.
I also love Mercedes, BMW and Audi, however, too expensive for me....I prefer my Toyota Yaris. :blush:
I find it difficult to vote on this for some of the items mentioned due to the fact that Germany didn't really exist as a unified country until the mid 19th century and some of these items predate Germany. What area are we talking about here? Mainly Prussia or some of the smaller states that existed? Plus I have always thought that beer was more Czech than German.
Yes, I agree with cars too. (Although I own a Toyota Yaris, which I bought recently, and I love).
My parents own a Volkswagen Passat, which is a great drive.
I also love Mercedes, BMW and Audi, however, too expensive for me....I prefer my Toyota Yaris. :blush:
I thought u had a lupo?
Btw, a consideration for car buyers, skoda is good, chzech owned by WV, and not expensive
I find it difficult to vote on this for some of the items mentioned due to the fact that Germany didn't really exist as a unified country until the mid 19th century and some of these items predate Germany.
That's true to a degree, but up to Napoleon the "Holy Roman Empire (of German Nation)" existed. You could say everybody living on the territory of the empire was/is German, although perhaps I would confine that to the part of the population that actually spoke a German dialect.
Miss_apollo7
08-05-05, 15:31
I thought u had a lupo?
Btw, a consideration for car buyers, skoda is good, chzech owned by WV, and not expensive
Not anymore, you are right about VW. Sold.
But now I have a Toyota Yaris....BRAND NEW!!!! I bought it and it was delivered to me in April....I have had it for only about a month now. I will show pictures soon to post. It is metallic blue - and I love it.
Not anymore, you are right about VW. Sold.
But now I have a Toyota Yaris....BRAND NEW!!!! I bought it and it was delivered to me in April....I have had it for only about a month now. I will show pictures soon to post. It is metallic blue - and I love it.
I guess congratulations are in order :cool:
I hope you do lotsa fun drivin around in your new Yaris :wave:
Miss_apollo7
08-05-05, 16:41
I guess congratulations are in order :cool:
I hope you do lotsa fun drivin around in your new Yaris :wave:
Thank you.... :wave:
VW Beetles, Beer, Eccentricity, they do it almost as well as the English. :)
Oh yeah, and you gotta love their breeds of dogs.
I actually had a pair of shoes, which I used more than 10 years! :bravo:
My father used to drive Volks Wagen Beetle.
He had it for 9 years, and not a single repair was required. :cool:
Sensuikan San
11-05-05, 04:48
No brainer ...
Bratwurst
Knackwurst
Blutwurst
Schinkenspeck
Porsche
BMW
Beer ...
.... and (...dear sweet lovely...) Elke Sommer ! (O.K. ..... I'm older than some of you other guys ...!)
Regards,
ジョン
Sensuikan San
11-05-05, 04:50
I forgot to mention ....
ME !
Had it not been for WWII ........
You lucky people, you !
Regards,
ジョン
Kraftwerk
Beer(yet again)
Currywurst(modern sausage)
Engineering
Berlin
Mauritzio(Techno musician)
VW Camper van
Andy Warhol hotel
TV Com tower
Used record stalls in market (records were immaculate)
Sorry, I really liked Berlin!
I chose Philosophers. Gottlob Frege (http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/frege/) is my favourite.
Having what has happened in the past, they've been able to make many films using stories that relate in someway, i would agree in this being a contribution.
But isn't Karl Marx jewish? Wouldn't Marx's philosophy be an indirect Israeli contribution?
But isn't Karl Marx jewish? Wouldn't Marx's philosophy be an indirect Israeli contribution?
No, why ? There was no Israel when Marx was writing. Not all jews associate themselves with Israel, many jews see Israel as an abhorration. Marx was not a beleiver and he had even renounced his jewish backround, therefore that makes him a german philospher.
No, why ? There was no Israel when Marx was writing. Not all jews associate themselves with Israel, many jews see Israel as an abhorration. Marx was not a beleiver and he had even renounced his jewish backround, therefore that makes him a german philospher.
If many jews see Israel as an abhorration, then why are many Jews living in Israel and calling their country Israel?
I know but that is why I asked if it is INDIRECT jewish/Israeli contribution. I didn't say "direct" Israeli contributionss
But isn't Karl Marx jewish? Wouldn't Marx's philosophy be an indirect Israeli contribution?
'Jewish' is a religion, or an ethnic origin, not a nationality - Marx was a Jewish German, just like Steven Spielberg is a Jewish American - I don't think we would ever say Spielberg is a great Israeli filmmaker.
If many jews see Israel as an abhorration, then why are many Jews living in Israel and calling their country Israel?
I know but that is why I asked if it is INDIRECT jewish/Israeli contribution. I didn't say "direct" Israeli contributionss
there are only 5 million jews in Israel. There is more than that in the city of New York alone. Marx will remain for me a german philospher.
If many jews see Israel as an abhorration, then why are many Jews living in Israel and calling their country Israel?
I agree with Duo. According to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews#Population), there are about 13 or 14 million Jews in the world, and only 5 million of them have chosen to live in Israel.
As was said, being "Jewish" means follow the Jewish religion and traditions. Marx was a notorious atheist, and therefore could not be considered a Jew.
True, Duo-san, Tsuyoiko-san and Maciamo-san. I agree that Karl Marx is German. But I sometimes identify him as Jewish, not based on his beliefs but based on his heritage. I also regard him as German.
But if Jews never existed at all, neither would Karl Marx.
Being Jewish is part of Marx's heritage no matter how much he had rejected it. In fact, I assumed that being a Jew is not about traditions and beliefs in religion but about birth. Isn't being jewish kind of, like, a person's birthright. Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Jews born Jewish? Jews didn't choose to be Jewish. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism doesn't encourage converts. Even though non-Jews may have become Jewish and Jews may welcome non-Jews into their fold, Judaism rarely advocates conversions of non-Jews.
You can become a Catholic or not. you always have the choice to renounce your Catholic beliefs. Even if you are baptized Catholic, it doesn't mean you are born Catholic. Simple drops of water can't give you an identity but the blood of your ancestors can give you an identity and a heritage. Your parents' blood's still part of who you are. Even if a Jew can renounce his beliefs, he cannot change his ancestry as a leopard can't change his spots. He can forget his roots, and can reject his roots but can't change it.
You can change your nationality (e.g. citizenship) but can you change your roots? There are Americans who consider themselves Americans but even the most patriotic Americans can remember their roots/ancestry. That is why I heard of Japanese-Americans, Filipino-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc.
I am an ethnic Chinese and I was born in USA so I was both born Chinese and American. Because I grew up in Philippines for the past 20 years, I always considered myself to be a Filipino but I still also identify myself as Chinese because it's part of my heritage. Even if I reject or ignore my Chinese heritage, I am still Chinese even though I see myself more as a Filipino. Because I have Chinese bood. A leopard cannot change his spots.
Being Jewish is part of Marx's heritage no matter how much he had rejected it. In fact, I assumed that being a Jew is not about traditions and beliefs in religion but about birth. Isn't being jewish kind of, like, a person's birthright. Correct me if i'm wrong but aren't Jews born Jewish? Jews didn't choose to be Jewish. Unlike Christianity and Islam, Judaism doesn't encourage converts.
No. Someone can convert to Judaism. What is more, Jewish law mention that only people whose mother is Jewish are considered as Jews. But because one can reject Jewish religion, one can also stop being Jewish. Note that Karl Marx's father converted to Lutheranism, and so he grew up with a Christian education and later converted to Atheism. Ethnically, like most Jews, he is far from a pure Jew (is there any pure 100% jews anyway, except in organic shops ?). So I don't see the point of classifying him more as a Jew than a German.
You can become a Catholic or not. you always have the choice to renounce your Catholic beliefs. Even if you are baptized Catholic, it doesn't mean you are born Catholic.
Catholicism is just a branch of Christianity. However, I have realised that many Japanese (or Asians in general) tend to think that Caucasians are necessarily Christians. So they create a link between race and religion, the same way as you do with people of (partly) Jewish descent and Judaism. Likewise, many Westerners would associate Arabs with Islam, while there are also Christian Arabs (esp. in Egypt, Palestine, Lebanon and Syria). It is more tricky with the term "Jewish" as it refers to both the race and religion. As there aren't any pure Jewish race anymore, it refers mainly to the religion. Many people could have Jewish ancestors and not know it. I read that Hitler himself could have had some distant Jewish ancestry, which is pretty ironic.
You can change your nationality (e.g. citizenship) but can you change your roots? There are Americans who consider themselves Americans but even the most patriotic Americans can remember their roots/ancestry. That is why I heard of Japanese-Americans, Filipino-Americans, Italian-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc.
This is because the USA is a fairly new country and people can still trace back their roots. Imagine all the ethnical mixture that will take place in the next few centuries. Do you reallly think that people will keep record of ALL their ancestor over, say, 20 generations ? That would be over 1 million ancestors just for the 20th generation (over 2 million in total). 20 generations only bring you back to about 500 years in the past. The Jewish diaspora took place 2000 years ago, so about 80 generations ago. Anyway, as there are no records left in most countries for more than 3 or 4 centuries (except for the nobility), it is impossible for most people to determine whether they have Jewish blood or not. Even if someone's mother's mother's mother' mother's... etc for 20 generation was Jewish, the person could officially be Jewish and yet have no trace of Jewish DNA left if not a single father had Jewish blood for 20 generations, as we only inherit half of our parents' DNA and after so many generation, some ancestors' DNA disappear altogether. This is just to demonstrate that the concept of "Jewish race" can be almost meaningless. There are blond and blue-eyed Jews ! (I have met some).
Even if someone's mother's mother's mother' mother's... etc for 20 generation was Jewish, the person could officially be Jewish and yet have no trace of Jewish DNA left if not a single father had Jewish blood for 20 generations, as we only inherit half of our parents' DNA and after so many generation, some ancestors' DNA disappear altogether. This is just to demonstrate that the concept of "Jewish race" can be almost meaningless. There are blond and blue-eyed Jews ! (I have met some).
I am the opposite to this. I am not officially Jewish, as my mother is not Jewish, but going back on my father's side, both of my grandmother's grandfathers were Jewish. So we stopped being 'Jewish' 4 generations ago. But I clearly have Jewish blood - I look Jewish, as do most of my dad's family.
Audi's, Beer and Classical music.
I would have put Sauerkraut (sp) but then I would probably just be joking. In honesty I havent eaten it for years. I also like German chocolate, and Art museums.
Has anyone here read Joyce's Ulysses? It seems as if half the book is about the ways and combinations you can be jewish or can't be jewish. It's really a matter of definition.
As for the greatest german contributions..... hmmmm...
- classical music (Beethoven, Orff)
- philosophy and german contribution to the historical phase of enlightenment
- literature (Hesse, Kafka, Mann)
- cars (BMW and Porsche)
- a technically descriptive and exact language only the germans, well, some of them use ;)
Those are the most important ones that came to my mind right now.
Sensuikan San
11-09-05, 02:22
Has anyone here read Joyce's Ulysses? It seems as if half the book is about the ways and combinations you can be jewish or can't be jewish. It's really a matter of definition.
...... I'd love to see your observations on "Finnegan's Wake"! :rolleyes:
Sleinte! :beer:
ジョン
( I now scurry off to refresh my reading of "Ulysses" ! - he may well have a point!)
I'll quote what R.A. Wilson wrote about that topic in 2001 in a bit more general context. Of course there is a lot more to Ulysses! I just exaggerated for dramatic effect. ;)
Schrödinger's Jew
97 years ago today Leopold Bloom, a fictitious man, wandered the streets of Dublin, a real city; and Joyce scholars still argue about his odd odyssey. I would like to add to the confusion with a note about Bloom's "Jewishness."
"Is" Leopold Bloom a Jew?
Not according to Orthodox Rabbinical law, which defines a Jew as the child of a Jewish mother. Bloom as the child of a Protestant mother "is not" a Jew.
According to Nazi law, however, a Jew "is" a person with a known Jewish ancestor. Bloom as the son of Rudolph Bloom [born Rudolph Virag], "is" a Jew.
See how easily a person can "be" and "not be" a Jew at the same time?
On the third hand, most humanists define a Jew as one who believes in and practices the Judaic religion. By this definition, Bloom who neither believes in nor practices any religion "is not" a Jew. But Marilyn Monroe, who practiced and probably tried to believe in Judaism while married to Arthur Miller, "was" a Jew by that definition-- for those few years, if not before or after.
Extensionally or phenomenologically, a Jew "is" somebody considered Jewish by all or most of the people he meets. By this standard the multi-ordinal Bloom "is" a Jew again.
Once more: in terms of pure existentialism a Jew "is" somebody who chooses to consider themselves Jewish. Bloom obviously doesn't consider himself Jewish but Irish, most of the time. Only when under verbal assault by the anti-semitic Citizen in Barney Kiernan's pub does Bloom define himself as Jewish ["And Jesus was a Jew too. Your god. He was a Jew like me."] Here he obviously has in mind the "known Jewish ancestor" rule, because he adds "And so was his father," to which the Citizen replies, as a correct Catholic, "He had no father," and Bloom, unfamiliar with that theology -- logic played with deuces, eights and one-eyed jacks wild -- can only pragmatically reply, "Well, his uncle then."
But recalling the incident later, Bloom says "And he called me a Jew, which as a matter of fact I'm not." Here he returns to his customary "believer in Judaic religion" definition.
I suppose Joyce made Bloom such a tangled genetic and cultural mixture to expose the absurdities of anti-semitism; but I also suspect that he wanted to undermine that neurolinguistic habit which postmodernists call "essentialism" and which Korzybski claimed invades our brains and causes hallucinations or delusions every time we use the word "is."
And I don't think I'd have the willpower to read Finnegan's Wake. Joyce isn't really entertaining enough for me.
Wow, this thread is getting offtopic, but interesting! I think I will have a go at Ulysses - I can really relate to the Jewish/not idea. I enjoyed A Portrait of the Artist, that was very easy to read. Finnegans Wake is impossible, so I'm told, so I'm thinking Ulysses will be a happy medium!
Germany? Though industrial achievements come to mind, the biggest german influence is definitely on thought and ideas.
And not only philosophical ones - the whole concept of modern warfare can be traced directly back to Germany.
As for Marx, I think an internationalist communist would consider religion and nationality to be a "bourgeois invention to submit the proletariat", so I'm not sure he was at ease with being neither Jewish nor German :?
Miss_apollo7
23-10-05, 18:49
(...) As for the greatest german contributions..... hmmmm...
- classical music (Beethoven, Orff)
(..) .
I agree, however Orff's "Carmina Burana" can be too bombastic, and sometimes too sinister when the volume is turned up too much!!! :blush:
OCKTOBERFEST!!!!!!!! WO0T!!
Seriously though, german tribes provided part of the foundation for modern britain (aswell as the germanic peoples of scandanavia).
It provided two world wars, and as horrible as they were, they did shock europe into a new kind of thinking and doing things.
Love germany, but my genetics are probably making me bias. :p
Edit: also on the case of Jew or not aJew, i think this thread has clearly shown that there isnt really such a thing as judiasm, just a religion and some poorly defined rules to make you an ethnic jew.
The fact is Ethnic jews as they really and legitimately existed died out by inter-breeding centuries upon centuries ago, thats why isrealis are called isrealis and not jews.
You'll also not many isrealis dont particularly follow a jewish lifestyle, so the number of jews in isreal is probably even smaller.
I personally think its a bit silly and dangerous to attach an ethnic slant to a religion, especially one so wide spread and for so long, homeless, im surpised judiasm has survived as long as it has, i guess its testiment to its stubborn nature.
I think judiasm should become more like the other organized religions, accepting converts and you know, releasing it from the ethnic connection, though there would no longer be the chosen people (which i also think is a bit dangerous of an idea).
Judiasm is actually very interesting, its for all intents and purpouses an ancient world religion, the jewish god isnt loving and fair, hell, from what ive read, he isnt even all that kind to his own chosen. :S
So yeah in short, im really suprised it has survived through the ages, and yet it deserves an applause for it, even though it hasnt really suceeded in maintaining the jewish ethnicity, at least it gave it a good go.
Also as Mac said, western religion isnt connected to race here, which is why there are churches from the north of norway to cape-town in south africa, south america is like, catholic-land, north america still holds christianity in high regard, its everywhere and includeds all races and cultures, even japan has a few christians milling about.
iann_allein
08-01-10, 00:44
you forgot Rammstein!!
German philosophy is dangerous ....:worried:
Aspirin. Health comes first to me.
Karnival in Dusseldorf, Koln and Mainz.
How about fairy tales ? Many Disney stories originated in Germany
From the former list, I am for Philosophers, Musik, Dogs and Cars, in that order.
Chemistry (and not only pharm. producsts) is something that the Germans have been good always and are still IMO the masters of it.
Ah!! We should not forget that most of what we know modernly about the Atom is because of the Germans scientists (Einstein, Schrﾃｶdinger, Planck, Heisenberg, Pauli, etc.).
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/upload/2009/10/is_it_evil_to_sell_mond_over_d/relativity_light_bending.jpg
http://www3.hi.is/~hj/QuantumMechanics/orbitals.gif
The scientific revolution of the 20th century (Relativity and Quantum Mechanics) were due mostly to the German Science.
To that, we should add that the most important mathematicians of Europe in the last three centuries have been mostly French and Germans.
http://rchsbowman.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/gauss-3.jpg
+++++
Apart from that, there have been very original artistic / architectural movements, like the "Deutsche Expressionismus"...
http://asterion.almadark.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/confusion01.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_amVfOoAc1dc/Rvx535R8xpI/AAAAAAAAABE/h-EXBxThDM4/s400/metropolis.jpg
... and the Bauhaus.
http://www.theboundary.co.uk/images/Bauhaus.jpg
Now that I think about it Germans have made a lot of contributions almost in every realm of human knowledge.
They have the right to be very proud of their culture.
(The only thing that I don't like of them, is that sometimes they are a bit arrogant "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt genesen")
Regards.
From the former list, I am for Philosophers, Musik, Dogs and Cars, in that order.
Chemistry (and not only pharm. producsts) is something that the Germans have been good always and are still IMO the masters of it.
Ah!! We should not forget that most of what we know modernly about the Atom is because of the Germans scientists (Einstein, Schrﾃｶdinger, Planck, Heisenberg, Pauli, etc.).
Wolfgang Ernst Pauli shoulnd't be considered german but austrian. He was born in Vienna and moved to the USA right after the german annexation of Austria. Later he was naturalized north-american.
Regards.
For me the greatest contribution to the world came from Martin Luther who founded the Protestant Reformation.
That apart Germany and German nationals have delivered so very much that is so very valuable to the world. It is precisely that which created the shock when the Weimar Republic fell and the events that followed began.
But even then England (NOT Britain) was in the lead, because the Germans were only repeating what England had done during the Boer War.
As for the (in)famous Schrﾃｶdinger, I would baulk at naming him amongst the greats on the basis of his proposing to be an absolute bastard to his cat!
A ke bono kane kotto
15-04-10, 11:08
For me the greatest contribution to the world came from Martin Luther who founded the Protestant Reformation.
How is that a world contribution ? It only affected a part of northern Europe and the USA. At least everybody can use cars or electronics.
Protestantism broke the stranglehold of the Roman Catholic church.
It brought people into a relationship with God that was direct and not dependent on priests who were in turn (and still are) controlled by Rome.
It also started the move towards the availability of the Bible in other than Latin and so allowed people to read for themselves what was written there.
Protestantism also allowed people to be Christians first and members of a church second, totally unlike Roman Catholicism which in many ways is distinctly UN Christian.
In short it started the great reformation which in turn opened up learning and advancement that had previously stalled under The Vatican control.
And ALL down to Martin Luther who kicked the whole thing off. The man who in his own way cried 窶弋he emperor is naked窶.
The effect has been world wide. Wherever there is a Christian church that is free from the influence of the Vatican and the pope it is attributable to the great work and contribution of Martin Luther.
As for the (in)famous Schrﾃｶdinger, I would baulk at naming him amongst the greats on the basis of his proposing to be an absolute bastard to his cat!
Who is also austrian, btw. :innocent:
Who is also austrian, btw. :innocent:
I am reliably informed that his cat was German!
Cambrius (The Red)
15-04-10, 17:24
I voted for classical music.
Before I continue, replying to what @Gwyllgi said, it is interesting to share for those that don窶冲 know it, that interesting part of Welsh lore窶ｦ
The gwyllgi compound noun of either gwyllt "wild" or gwyll "twilight" + ci "dog") is a mythical dog from Wales that appears as a frightful apparition of a mastiff with baleful breath and blazing red eyes.
It is often referred to as "The Dog of Darkness" or "The Black Hound of Destiny", the apparition's favourite haunt being lonely roads at night. It is said to resemble a mastiff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mastiff).
http://is2.okcupid.com/users/924/558/9255581323476418650/mt1108771635.jpg http://www.neffinesse.dk/art/oekaki/872.jpg
http://nli.northampton.ac.uk/ass/psych-staff/sjs/images/blackdog.jpg http://waleshome.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/hell-hounds1.jpg
I think that the contributions of @Gwyllgi could be divided in three main parts.
The historical contributions of Martin Luther and undeniable and in my opinion (if we except the religious wars in Europe) very interesting and positive, just as he discribed.
I am not friend of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church) and I feel right now not in the mood to defend anything they have done. Just to point that anti RCC is one of the main three conducting lines of the participations of @Gwyllgi in this forum... and this is the part less interesting to me.
That apart Germany and German nationals have delivered so very much that is so very valuable to the world. It is precisely that which created the shock when the Weimar Republic fell and the events that followed began.
But even then England (NOT Britain) was in the lead, because the Germans were only repeating what England had done during the Boer War.
I have always believed that a deep understanding of Nazism comes not from studying the years 1933-1945, but to look at the events and culture and political developments of the period 1914-1933.
As a good Welsh, @Gwyllgi wants to remind us that the U.K. is a composed entity...
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland encompasses the most of the three. As its full name suggests, it includes Northern Ireland (http://www.eupedia.com/ce6/world/A0825464.html) in addition to Great Britain.
Great Britain is composed of three areas: England (http://www.eupedia.com/ce6/world/A0817363.html), Scotland (http://www.eupedia.com/ce6/world/A0844104.html), and Wales (http://www.eupedia.com/ce6/world/A0851313.html).
As for England, it is the largest and most populous portion of the United Kingdom.
In practice, the terms are often used interchangably through metonymy (http://www.eupedia.com/ce6/ent/A0832930.html), though those living in the UK but outside of England tend not to be fond of the practice.
... however, I didn't understand why he brought here the events of the Boer war in South Africa. It will be interesting if he elaborated more about that.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Now, here comes the most interesting part.
As for the (in)famous Schrﾃｶdinger, I would baulk at naming him amongst the greats on the basis of his proposing to be an absolute bastard to his cat!
I don't know if the analogy of the cat in the box was fortunate or infortunate. However Schrﾃｶdinger is much more than talking about living or dead cats.
Schﾃｶdinger was not the man that initially proposed the dual character of paticle-wave duality of everything (it was the French DeBroglie http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_de_Broglie ), however the Schrﾃｶdinger equation and its predictive results in understanding atomic structure, undoubtly put this man among the absolute Geniuses of all times. I don't know how an educated person could say otherwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_orbital
http://www3.hi.is/~hj/QuantumMechanics/scrod.gif
Regards.
Before I continue, replying to what @Gwyllgi said, it is interesting to share for those that don窶冲 know it, that interesting part of Welsh lore窶ｦ
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]
It窶冱 interesting that you窶况e taken the time to see just what a Gwyllgi is! But in fairness like so many things he does get 窶彙ad press窶.
Most things mythical are poorly communicated between 窶彡ultures窶, even poorly communicated between societies within the same culture, and round the parts where I live even an everyday story can change substantially from one end of the village to the other.
窶抖hat Blodwyn Jones, she窶冱 had twins, not identical though, the girl has darker hair. Still fraternal twins run in her side of the family isn窶冲 it窶
(Note how in colloquial Welsh a statement often ends with what would otherwise be a question)
By the time the story has reached the OTHER end of the village it has become:-
窶弋hat Jones woman, been at it again she has, Two different babies, look nothin窶 like each other. Two fathers obviously. Mind you, her mother and her grandmother were just the same. Easy isn窶冲 the word to describe them!窶
So it is with Gwyllgi. Black dogs in British folklore traditionally have a bad reputation, often well founded if only in myth, but a reputation which in some cases with Gwyllgi ignores also being a guardian to travelers on the road.
Many stories exist of a man traveling alone at night through places such as Bettws-y-coed ( http://www.dakotaboo.com/postcards/images/bettws-y-coed,%20swallow%20falls%20(grosvenor).jpg (http://www.dakotaboo.com/postcards/images/bettws-y-coed,%20swallow%20falls%20(grosvenor).jpg) ) on an unknown path and finding a Gwyllgi padding silently beside him snarling whenever he stepped to left or right.
Next day when retracing his steps in daylight then finding that where the Gwyllgi walked to each side of the track was a precipitous cliff that he would otherwise have fallen down in the dark.
In reply to Sirius2b
I (think that I) have a sense of humour. An odd one maybe, but one nevertheless.
I also believe in the principle that life is too short to drink cheap whisky, or take serious things too seriously. I also much prefer cats to Schrﾃｶdinger, a prejudice that I built up when reading Physics as an undergrad nearly fifty years ago!
As for the Boer War, it窶冱 often forgotten that it was the English who first made use of concentration camps for Boer civilians and where the inmates were systematically starved to death.
http://www.erroluys.com/BoerWarChildsStory.htm (http://www.erroluys.com/BoerWarChildsStory.htm) for one authenticated account.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/513944.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/513944.stm) from 窶弋he Beeb窶 (BBC)
One of the most famous Welshmen of the Twentieth century, David Lloyd George, was utterly opposed to the Boer War and especially the manner in which the English were prosecuting it, an opposition that blighted him politically in the eyes of many for the rest of his life.
There is a great deal for the British, even the English, to be proud of, but a great deal to be utterly ashamed of as well.
It窶冱 interesting that you窶况e taken the time to see just what a Gwyllgi is! But in fairness like so many things he does get 窶彙ad press窶.
OK.
Most things mythical are poorly communicated between 窶彡ultures窶, even poorly communicated between societies within the same culture, and round the parts where I live even an everyday story can change substantially from one end of the village to the other.
......
So it is with Gwyllgi. Black dogs in British folklore traditionally have a bad reputation, often well founded if only in myth, but a reputation which in some cases with Gwyllgi ignores also being a guardian to travelers on the road.
There is a lot of reason in what you say.
It is fascinating how rich the folklore of many European cultures are.
I for my part, if I ever meet a Gwyllgi I will not be so hasty to take for granted its intentions... I will look carefully for maybe it is well intentioned. :innocent:
Regards.
In reply to Sirius2b
I (think that I) have a sense of humour. An odd one maybe, but one nevertheless.
I also believe in the principle that life is too short to drink cheap whisky, or take serious things too seriously. I also much prefer cats to Schrﾃｶdinger, a prejudice that I built up when reading Physics as an undergrad nearly fifty years ago!
Life is too short, so we have to take the best of it, I agree.
As for the Boer War, it窶冱 often forgotten that it was the English who first made use of concentration camps for Boer civilians and where the inmates were systematically starved to death.
http://www.erroluys.com/BoerWarChildsStory.htm (http://www.erroluys.com/BoerWarChildsStory.htm) for one authenticated account.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/513944.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/513944.stm) from 窶弋he Beeb窶 (BBC)
I will read the articles with detail. Thank you.
(Naturally I knew that the Boer concentration camps were not one of England best moments).
One of the most famous Welshmen of the Twentieth century, David Lloyd George, was utterly opposed to the Boer War and especially the manner in which the English were prosecuting it, an opposition that blighted him politically in the eyes of many for the rest of his life.
Naturally many of his time and in present, recognize Lloyd George as one of the most influential and visionary man of his time.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/37/86796592_e136a2733b.jpg
There is a great deal for the British, even the English, to be proud of, but a great deal to be utterly ashamed of as well.
Probably. All things they have to live with (the good and the bad), I guess.
( I as a Mexican have no grudge against British ( why should I? )
And I see that as an oportunity to appreciate the most of their culture and good things... that could come from a relaxed and friendly relationship, whenever possible. )
Regards.
Invictus_88
20-04-10, 00:53
Immanuel Kant, and Friedrich Nietzsche. In ascending order.
Germany is strongly engaged in GMES and carries out an important part of its GEOSS contributions in the context of this European initiative. In general Germany has a share of approx. a quarter (+- 5%) of the European GEOSS contributions. From the numerous contributions of the United Nations Germany bears about 10%.
Rastko Pocesta
20-10-10, 17:49
Classical music and philosophy.
Wagner, Beethoven, Kant, Nietzsche, Wheat Beer, Sausage.
Germans have made a huge contribution to Europe and the world in almost all areas.
Here I will only say one thing that may have missed in previous posts:
German economic system, management, discipline.
What is German economic system?
Do you think Germans invented discipline? How do they contribute it to the world? Can you export it to, let's say, Nigeria?
What is German economic system?
Do you think Germans invented discipline? How do they contribute it to the world? Can you export it to, let's say, Nigeria?
LeBrok
I thought about the German business and corporate culture where discipline is a its part.
German management style, business culture etc. are taught by business schools around the world.
People around the world can learn and strive to implement best practices and this is the German contribution.
Several sites:
www.simplehrguide.com/german-management-model-should-we-study-it.html (http://www.simplehrguide.com/german-management-model-should-we-study-it.html)
...
The German Management Model is based on following basic principles:
Long-term Strategy
Common agreement with Trade Unions and Employees
Mutual Respect to Authorities
Formalism
Focus on Personal Contribution
Focus on Performance
Maybe, within several years we will have to learn the secret of the German Management Style. The success of German companies during last few years is truly worth studying.
www.germanculture.com.ua/library/facts/bl_business_culture.htm (http://www.germanculture.com.ua/library/facts/bl_business_culture.htm)
The German style of competition is rigorous but not ruinous. Although companies might compete for the same general market, as Daimler-Benz and BMW do, they generally seek market share rather than market domination. Many compete for a specific niche. German companies despise price competition. Instead, they engage in what German managers describe as Leistungswettbewerb, competition on the basis of excellence in their products and services. They compete on a price basis only when it is necessary, as in the sale of bulk materials like chemicals or steel.
The German manager concentrates intensely on two objectives: product quality and product service. He wants his company to be the best, and he wants it to have the best products. The manager and his entire team are strongly product oriented, confident that a good product will sell itself. But the manager also places a high premium on customer satisfaction, and Germans are ready to style a product to suit a customer's wishes. The watchwords for most German managers and companies are quality, responsiveness, dedication, and follow-up.
...
www.worldbusinessculture.com/German-Management-Style.html (http://www.worldbusinessculture.com/German-Management-Style.html)
www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/germany-country-profile.html (http://www.kwintessential.co.uk/resources/global-etiquette/germany-country-profile.html)
Pdf file:
http://andreasfeinmarketing.com/download/US-Artikel/sbmfeb01.pdf (http://andreasfeinmarketing.com/download/US-Artikel/sbmfeb01.pdf)
One book:
Markus Richwien, Cross-Cultural Differences - Japanese and German Management Styles from the German Perspective: Hofstede's Dimensions applied on German and Japanese Managers' Leadership Styles
etc.
There are a lot of sources and more recently as it is considered that Germany successfully cope with the economic crisis.
...
Ok, I agree with you that the German business/corporate culture and practice easier to implement in a European country than Nigeria.
For example, to simplify, suppose that a management team wants in a Nigerian company to adopt a corporate culture of a German company that serves as a model.
This is a difficult task because one of the factors the corporate culture is the national culture, but leaders of the Nigerian company can not change national culture.
But still a good practice in German companies may be introduced, and success will partly depend on how much they are capable as leaders.
...
We can discuss and about German business model but I think it is better to discuss some from Germany.
Thanks Garrick, I see what you mean now, though the thread catered more to the inventions, and not to a German style of doing things. On other hand maybe we should extend the inventions to include a culture or a style.
In Italian Contributions thread the Italian shoes should be included, and this would get the most votes from women. J This is not sarcasm, just agreeing with your creative thinking.
I didn窶冲 agree that Germany have their own economic system, but if you just narrow it down to German management style I gladly agree.
Sorry for the short response, but I窶冦 chronically running out of time recently and I窶冦 tired from overdose of work.
Thanks Garrick, I see what you mean now, though the thread catered more to the inventions, and not to a German style of doing things. On other hand maybe we should extend the inventions to include a culture or a style.
In Italian Contributions thread the Italian shoes should be included, and this would get the most votes from women. J This is not sarcasm, just agreeing with your creative thinking.
I didn窶冲 agree that Germany have their own economic system, but if you just narrow it down to German management style I gladly agree.
Sorry for the short response, but I窶冦 chronically running out of time recently and I窶冦 tired from overdose of work.
LeBrok
Ok. Someone may find a lot of the literature about the German management and corporate culture.
But, especially recently, is increasingly used and the expression of the German economic system, since German economy achieved high scores, this expression are used, among other, and among politicians:
www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3280955,00.html (http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,3280955,00.html)
Merkel Calls for Rejuvenation of German Economic System
www.thehindu.com/news/international/article492145.ece (http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article492145.ece)
Merkel suggests world should adopt German economic system
Yes the term is used but it is misleading. System means something more substantial, profound and a basic form. German economic system is same as in England, USA, France and most European countries. It's is capitalistic free market economy.
Now the differences that we see are in style of managing the same system, the same base of economy. Obviously Germany have their own style of running economy a bit different way than in GB, they have different tax system, social help network and many other things. But the core how they produce GDP, and allow the capital to flow, invest, and companies to compete, is basically the same. That's the system.
Yes the term is used but it is misleading. System means something more substantial, profound and a basic form. German economic system is same as in England, USA, France and most European countries. It's is capitalistic free market economy.
Now the differences that we see are in style of managing the same system, the same base of economy. Obviously Germany have their own style of running economy a bit different way than in GB, they have different tax system, social help network and many other things. But the core how they produce GDP, and allow the capital to flow, invest, and companies to compete, is basically the same. That's the system.
LeBrok
Ok. As you have seen the term is used, it may be a variation on the same or similar meaning:
German economic system
Economic system of Germany
German (econimic) model.
I think your logic is correct, but and those who use this term, in fact it is mostly about how a particular system that can be specifically called.
Here's an example:
http://econpapers.repec.org/article/rjrromjef/v_3a2_3ay_3a2005_3ai_3a3_3ap_3a65-90.htm (http://econpapers.repec.org/article/rjrromjef/v_3a2_3ay_3a2005_3ai_3a3_3ap_3a65-90.htm)
I'm not so crazy about taxonomy, as long as we know what we are talking about. I just expressed my opinion about this subject.
What is left to do for you is somehow explain how German economic system is contributed to the world, as per title of this thread. Usually it means it was exported or assimilated by other countries. Who else is using German Economic System?
If no one else, then this invention is only beneficial to Germany, and not to the world.
I'm not so crazy about taxonomy, as long as we know what we are talking about. I just expressed my opinion about this subject.
What is left to do for you is somehow explain how German economic system is contributed to the world, as per title of this thread. Usually it means it was exported or assimilated by other countries. Who else is using German Economic System?
If no one else, then this invention is only beneficial to Germany, and not to the world.
LeBrok
One of the characteristics of the German system is, among other things, particular economic model known as 窶彜ocial Market Economy窶 (Soziale Marktwirtschaft)
You can see that others are invited to adopt this system (and it would be contribution).
Certainly, in some European countries adopted some features of this system.
You're right, the question remains whether this particular system.
Maybe it's better to be characterized as a variant of the existing system.
It is an interesting discussion and it would be good if someone from Germany to participate and give his/her opinion.
Mzungu mchagga
24-02-11, 18:49
For me personally, economic systems in general are closely bound to conceptions of justice and thus some kind of product of economic philosophy, which in turns again reflect standards of cultural mentality and ethics.
For instance, no matter how good the economic and social system in Scandinavia works, it could never be transfered to the USA, as it would be considered as a huge impact of freedom, which has more relevance in the US. Scandinavia in turns couldn't take over the economic and 'unfair' social system of the US. And USA and Scandinavia both belong to the Western World, it would become even more complicated in other regions in the world.
It is not that easy just to 'import' or 'export' economic systems from or to other countries. If a system works very well in a country and is appreciated by people of another country, of course elements of it can be taken over. But not the whole system as one to one, but parts of it modified to the needs and mentality of the people.
For me personally, economic systems in general are closely bound to conceptions of justice and thus some kind of product of economic philosophy, which in turns again reflect standards of cultural mentality and ethics.
For instance, no matter how good the economic and social system in Scandinavia works, it could never be transfered to the USA, as it would be considered as a huge impact of freedom, which has more relevance in the US. Scandinavia in turns couldn't take over the economic and 'unfair' social system of the US. And USA and Scandinavia both belong to the Western World, it would become even more complicated in other regions in the world.
It is not that easy just to 'import' or 'export' economic systems from or to other countries. If a system works very well in a country and is appreciated by people of another country, of course elements of it can be taken over. But not the whole system as one to one, but parts of it modified to the needs and mentality of the people.
Mzungu mchagga
Yes. So if you notice are given: the system, management and culture.
People in one country can learn how the economic system works in another country, can learn the style of management but this can not be implemented in the same way due to different cultures, and of course other important differences.
Ok, the leaders of the organizations can change the culture although it is a laborious process and requires their strong commitment and engagement.
If it comes to national culture capabilities leadership of change are limited.
So it can not be fully replicated system from one country to another, especially if the cultural differences (of course, and not just cultural) are large, but certainly it is important to learn from the successful system.
I think the increased interest for the German economic system (I use the term as it is used, okay, this is not contrary to the general system of the capitalist system, but one of its variants) due to the fact that in recent years, especially in times of economic crisis, proved to be successful.
This is a great contribution to the German world and others can learn German system, management and culture, and try to adopt some of the things for which estimates that it is useful and possible in a particular situation.
I think that the topic of the German "economic system" and current economic success (specially relative to much of Europa and USA nowadays), deserves its own thread.
I have so many things to say about it, but I do not do it for fear that I will be losed among so many other themes exposed here.
Really, I think it is a extremely relevant and interesting nowadays... and therefore, I think that I deserves its own thread. Someone really should open it.
Regards.
crudshoveller
26-02-11, 16:54
Surely 'Jewish' is a cultural and religious distinction? The Jews may be more inclined and determined to keep their 'racial purity' than some other groups, they are after all Gods chosen ones, but there has never been a foolproof way of keeping a stray cockerel out of the chicken run. Jewish is not a truly ethnic distinction since their recognised racial group is Semitic, which includes many non-Jews, including the Arab peoples. Arabs raised by Jews or Jews raised by Arabs are indistinguishable from the rest of the particular herd. Like all cultures of long standing, much of what passes for traditional Jewish culture would be unrecognisable to their distant ancestors. Some Jewish cultural traditions certainly reach back into the mists of time, but elements of Jewish tradition are acknowledged as borrowed from other cultures, as has happened with all cultures. Also, powerful manipulators arise everywhere who are wont to apply their own agendas and skew the mix whenever opportunity arises. This phenomenon is very apparent in the genesis and evolution of the Christian religion and Christian teaching of course.
Just my twopennyworth.
But I would be interested to know who the very first person claiming to be Jewish was, or when the term first arose - and what that person or group's recent, and more distant, ancestors had been. Who were the first Englishmen or Germans for that matter. I think this kind of self-aggrandising divisiveness fizzles into nonsense when put under the microscope and pushed to the wall. Follow our individual genetic lines of descent back far enough, ethnic boundaries disappear and we are all turn out to be distant cousins of one kind or another - Hitler, Bin Laden, Mugabe, that fellow who massacred scores of American Indians and Gadhafi too.
crudshoveller
26-02-11, 17:01
Since it considered so cucial in preserving nationhood, according to universal military thinking, I suggest inclusion of the guided missile too.
crudshoveller
26-02-11, 18:46
For reference I had in mind the Hs293 and the Fritz X. It is possible many people have still never heard of them.
For instance, an air-launched Hs293 sunk HMS Egret in 1943 - blew it sky high with a strike to the ship's magazine. Those things really did work!
For reference I had in mind the Hs293 and the Fritz X. It is possible many people have still never heard of them.
For instance, an air-launched Hs293 sunk HMS Egret in 1943 - blew it sky high with a strike to the ship's magazine. Those things really did work!
Well, I heard of it... it was lauched from the air (in that case, a Do 17)... just has the best anti-ship missiles of today (such as the Russians Moskit or Yakhont)...
(corrected information)
And another example of guided WWII German missile...
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wasserfall_(Rakete)
(corrected...link)
Regards.
crudshoveller
28-02-11, 19:59
Excellent Sirius. [It was a Do217 that sank Egret but close enough].
For reference m'sieur, don't take this as my saying guided missiles were the greatest German contribution to humanity - just one other step forward into the technology of today that has (arguably) brought some benefit to those who presume to keep the world safe for the rest of us.
As an aside - do you know of any Mexican contribution in the field of pioneering aviation, or was there was too much all-consuming political strife going on at the time in the country to allow time/effort/funds for such experimentation?
Excellent Sirius. [It was a Do217 that sank Egret but close enough].
Strike three!!!! :embarassed: :embarassed: :embarassed:
(Thanks for your comprehension, anyway :good_job: )
As an aside - do you know of any Mexican contribution in the field of pioneering aviation, or was there was too much all-consuming political strife going on at the time in the country to allow time/effort/funds for such experimentation?
On the contrary, the only true interest to experiment with aviation in Mexico were precisely the times of the Mexican Revolution.
The first sight for precission bombing, the first aereal combat, and the first ship sank by a plane, and the breaking several times the altitude record, were all that happen in Mexican Revolution (1911-1917)
http://www.fata.unam.mx/ciencia/2010/historia-de-la-aviacion-mexicana-primera-parte
After that, none was done that deserves mentioning, that I remember.
After WWII, when there was a worldwide general interest in Rockets and the possibility of space travel, there was also here some initial interest in the matter... so we started a native space program in the end of 50s, early 60s...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD5CN8JykQU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VD5CN8JykQU)
... but I guess that, as common in our History, Mexican politicians decided the money will be better spent on expensive cars and suits... :embarassed:
Regards.
P.S.
Being you Canadian, you probably be interested in knowing that Bombardier is doing some good things here. http://www.thestar.com/article/433845
crudshoveller
02-03-11, 20:21
Strike three!!!! :embarassed: :embarassed: :embarassed:
Being you Canadian, you probably be interested in knowing that Bombardier is doing some good things here.
Strike four!!!! Sirius. Not that you were to know but I am not Canadian - I just live and pay taxes here. The Eupedia questionnaire asks where one lives and does not elicit further clarification so that's where the deficiency lies.
However, not all is lost because I did used to work for Bombardier as it happens - and for de Havilland some time before that. Glad to hear Bombardier is creating jobs in Mexico anyway.
Just for curiosity crudshoveller, what nationality do you identify yourself?
crudshoveller
03-03-11, 15:33
Just for curiosity crudshoveller, what nationality do you identify yourself?
Ah, I am Englander. I have Britisher EU passport for when I visit to the foreigners and distant parts of our oblate living-shere.
Thank you for your kind interest LeBrok.
I live between Alliston and Barrie in Ontario - retired now but formerly worked here in aerospace in Montreal and Toronto. Good news for Canadian aerospace with than big aircraft order yesterday, eh?
Lots of easy-come-by informations here eh? One has to take care though, as much of it must be taken with a pinch of salt (as we Englanders say when confronted with shady fact).
Crudshoveller, are you deliberately writing in a non-standard form of English? Do you speak in this fashion?
Spion Stirlitz
02-04-11, 03:10
I like this thread... but I think that the issue about the German economic system has not been developed.
In particular, it would be interesting to discuss why some countries in the West could manage to keep their industrial base when contronted with Asian competition and others simply don't.
I think that it has to do with the presence or absense of social considerations and the understanding that Reality is complex and the "simplicity" of neoliberalim and specially Monetarism, are only a facade of the Financial Capital to appropiate the resources of the countries in a destructive an negative way in the long term.
In front of that, the simple XVII Century-style Mecantilism of Chinese works fantastic... no to mention the "Japan Inc." and South Korean models of development.
Germany is doing OK in industrial and export competitiveness for a number of reasons. Mostly because it didn't allow (as of today) its state-social structures to be dismantled in the same manner, as, say, the USA.
*
gl
John Logie Baird invented the TV didn't he? He was British
And I'm sure the first light bulb was invented by British chemist Humphry Davy
The modern light bulb has over 22 people claiming to have invented it.
PS German cars are f*****g awesome!!
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