View Full Version : European cultures : (1) The French
I have been studying the cultural differences between European countries for many years. I have lived in 5 EU countries (UK, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain) and learned each language, which helped a lot analysing cultural differences. I also come from a small country (Belgium) with 3 cultures/languages and lived from 30min to 1h away by car from 4 countries (France, Luxembourg, Germany, Netherlands).
As a native French speaker with a culturally French education, and having been countless times in France, I know France almost as well as a French person. Not being French helps me see the country as an outsider and clearly seeing what is typically French from what is not. I will thus start this discussion about European cultures with France. I have read several times and would like to recommend you the 2 following books about European cultures by Richard Hill. I have met the author, bought the books from him, and I can say that I agree on almost every sentence he wrote : EuroManagers & Martians (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9074440134/maciamojapan-20/104-6066459-7917524) and We Europeans (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/9074440118/maciamojapan-20/104-6066459-7917524).
This little introduction is in itself very French. ;-) I will proceed point by point, sometimes introducing a comparison, to define what makes the French what they are. Please understand that when talking about cultures, we have to generalise, and that the view given is what is regarded as normal in a particular country, rather than unusual. It does not work for everyone. It's just a trend and may change with time (over generations).
1) The French like complicated things.
In a political debate on French TV, it was once said "In France it is simple to complicate things, but complicated to simplify them". This summarises to the perfection one of the fundamental aspects of French culture.
- Illustration :
The American mistrusts complex things and tends to oversimplify. The Frenchman, by inclination and education, mistrusts simple things and tends to over-complicate. It is for this reason that no Frenchman, by American standards, can ask a simple, straightforward question when speaking in public. By French standards, no American speaker can give a full, sophisticated answer.
- Example : The Economist (http://www.economist.com/World/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4433398) describes the French tax system to be of 'fiendish complexity'. They cite, for instance over 40 deductions in the French pay-slip, as opposed to just 2 in Britain.
2) The French are theoretical. They prefer rhetoric, abstractions and ideas to facts and practical thinking.
- if Shakespeare had been a Frenchman, he would have said : "To be or not to be, that is the question. But the question is badly formulated."
- The French favour design over practicality. They like innovation for the sake of creativity, even when there is no practical need for it. (btw, this is all the opposite of the Japanese)
- The French raison d'etre is "measured intellectual performance".
3) The French political dilemma : an autocratic egalitarian society.
They claim to follow the 18th-century Revolutionary values of "liberty, equality and fraternity" (written on coins, stamps, etc.), but France is actually one of the most hierarchical and vertical society in the Western world. The political and economical systems are extremely elitists. A few chosen ones study at the Grandes Ecoles, then join the administration at a high-level from the start to "learn how the system works, and make connections", then become top executives in major public (or private) companies. There are very close ties between big businesses and the government in France, and executives are criticised for knowing better how the government and administration works, than their own company. This creates a huge gap between the top of the company and the rest.
French society and language are also exceedingly formal compared to most other countries.
4) The importance of forging relations.
Like the Spaniards, the French like to create relations with someone over a long lunch before starting making business with them. They need to get to know what kind of the person they are dealing with, and create an emotional bond.
Disregard for the customer is a way of life in the French business world.
...
Indeed, in French eyes, putting oneself readily at the disposal of a total stranger is an affront to one's self-esteem : like the Spanish, the French have difficulty in recognising the difference between service and servility.
5) The decision-making process
French people (e.g. managers) typically make a quick decision that they might revise later on. This is the opposite of the Germans who think carefully about all the possibilities then make a decision that they will not change afterwards.
6) The râleur character
This also came up in debates on French TV. A Swedish journalist said that one of the first things he had to learn when he arrived in France was "râler", a difficult term to translate as it is so typically French (the word doesn't exist with that meaning in Quebecois French), and which we could translate as "complain about all and everything, not always with justification". The Swedish journalist explained that he had never met people who complained more than French, anywhere in the world.
French people like to strike, protest or demonstrate to voice their discontentment, while the others complain about people striking and demonstrating...
One ironic example of the French râleur is the commuter in his car who complains in the traffic jam about the fact that other people have also decided to come to work by car : "Why don't they all come by public transports ?" In other words, they are never satisfied and don't try much to understand the other person's point of view.
André Gide, a French writer who received the Nobel Prize of Literature, said that "French people are Italian people in bad mood".
There is more to say, but I will stop here for now.
That is really fascinating, Maciamo, thanks for this topic and all the info you have posted! :cool: Errrr... I can't really contribute much :bluush: but I'm interested to keep my eye here anyway! :relief:
Hehe - my (Japanese) ex said that I was "very French"... except for the fact that I don't drive too fast (!!!). Uhhh, at least, not when there's someone else in the car... :winklove:
You know Maciamo, what you wrote applies not only to the French, but to all southern europeans. We are all just like that, with the possible exception that we are not as obsessed with egalité like the French are, mostly because we do not claim paternity of the modern concept.
For us, the main characteristic of the French was always their Arrogance, as they seem to believe that all must conform to french standards when in France and also thinking of their system as the best possible; and by thinking that everyone in France should speak French.
For us, the main characteristic of the French was always their Arrogance, as they seem to believe that all must conform to french standards when in France and also thinking of their system as the best possible; and by thinking that everyone in France should speak French.
But the French system is the best possible, is it not? :okashii: And of course everyone must speak French and conform to French standards when in France! :box: It goes without saying!
:giggle: I kid, I kid............. (like it's not obvious, lol)
You know Maciamo, what you wrote applies not only to the French, but to all southern europeans.
There are clear differences as well as similarities. I don't know so well about Portugal, but I stayed a few months in Spain, and it struck me as so culturally different from either France or Italy. The Spaniards and Italians differ from the French in that they are less formal and distant, less theoretical and intellect-obsessed, and not as complicated. Just an example to show the differences of legislation between France and Spain. In France, you need a university diploma for anything : to have a real estate business, to open a restaurant, a hotel, to be therapist, masseur, or whatever. In Spain, anyone could open a real estate agency without qualifications. The French are more than obsessed about paper qualifications.
Regarding the economy as a whole, the difference between France and Italy is huge. While successful French companies are usually big and state-owned (in any case big), Italian ones are mostly SME's. The French government is also much better organised, structure and willing to display France's grandeur, than the chaotic and incapable Italian government.
For us, the main characteristic of the French was always their Arrogance
I'd say that the French are conceited, condescending, proud of their culture, have an exagerated opinion of themselves and the achievements of their country. EuroManagers quoted a Frenchman saying "We French are full of ourselves, but justifiably so".
...as they seem to believe that all must conform to french standards when in France and also thinking of their system as the best possible; and by thinking that everyone in France should speak French.
I could agree about the fact that everyone living in a country should speak the national language (if there is one). The French often refuse to speak English even to tourists (even when they can), because they still can't admit that French language has lost its place as the world's lingua franca. So, addressing a French person directly in English, without even trying to speak French, is a blow to their self-esteem. I can understand that because, although I am not French, it pisses me off when Japanese people (or other non-Westerners) assume that I am an English-speaker just because I am a Westerner.
:giggle: I kid, I kid............. (like it's not obvious, lol)
If you had a french flag in your 'residence' place, I would not have been quite so obvious... :p
There are clear differences as well as similarities.
Yes, there are differences, It's just that I think that the ones you pointed out aren't the ones, for the most part...
The Spaniards and Italians differ from the French in that they are less formal and distant, less theoretical and intellect-obsessed, and not as complicated.
You're right about the spanish being informal. They differ from the portuguese heavily in that regard.
They often use terms like "se quieres obtener este libro" in ads and newspapers and so forth... in Portugal, that is *unthinkeable*. To address grown people in that manner is a gross insult. Such treatment is reserved for small children, or people one knows really well, not the public at large.
I often mention this to them, and they get surprised at our formality.
This was not always the case, mind. A bare 30 years ago, spaniards would have used the "se usted desea obtener este libro" form to say the same, which is much more correct.
And I did notice that they also don't care about their academic titles, which is odd :souka: In Portugal, everyone should be addressed by their title, so that one is usually called "dr. X", "Prof. Z" or "Eng. Y" in one's daily lives (indeed, employees would show NO respect for people without a title).
For example, if I go to a shop, the keeper usually says "welcome, doctor" (which is correct; I would warn him if my title was another, should that be the case). Whenever I ask for something, it will be answered "yes, doctor", and so on. This is particularly true at professional level.
Spaniards, on the other hand, have recently lost that habit. I have seen often spanish graduates decline the right to be treated by their title here. They do not seem to realize that by doing so they lose a great deal of respect... :mad:
It's all a product of the times we live in, where good manners are all but forgotten...
Just an example to show the differences of legislation between France and Spain. In France, you need a university diploma for anything : to have a real estate business, to open a restaurant, a hotel, to be therapist, masseur, or whatever. In Spain, anyone could open a real estate agency without qualifications. The French are more than obsessed about paper qualifications.
Let's just say the spaniards *lost* their obsession. Rest assured you'll have a hard time establishing yourself here without a diploma (and the TITLE it carries with it).
Also, would you really trust someone without qualifications :souka:
Regarding the economy as a whole, the difference between France and Italy is huge. While successful French companies are usually big and state-owned (in any case big), Italian ones are mostly SME's. The French government is also much better organised, structure and willing to display France's grandeur, than the chaotic and incapable Italian government.
Italian and spanish companies are often big at a *regional* level, because the countries are far less centralized than France or Portugal. In Portugal we usually have big companies, most of which used to be state-owned (and the state often keeps a 'golden share', even today).
See Spain: in the Energy sector, the big companies are Endesa (Castille), Gás Natural (Catalonia) and Iberdrola (Basque Country). Unión Fenosa was recently sold to ACS to keep it castillian and HidroCantábrico belongs to EDP (Electricity of Portugal, the BIG portuguese energy company, which is trying to use its monopoly in Portugal to expand to Spain).
It is more of a regionalism vs. centralism issue. At the proper level, our companies are always big.
I'd say that the French are conceited, condescending, proud of their culture, have an exagerated opinion of themselves and the achievements of their country. EuroManagers quoted a Frenchman saying "We French are full of ourselves, but justifiably so".
Indeed. And they have been bugging us with THAT for over 800 years... :relief:
I could agree about the fact that everyone living in a country should speak the national language (if there is one). The French often refuse to speak English even to tourists (even when they can), because they still can't admit that French language has lost its place as the world's lingua franca.
Yes, it's the second bit that ticks us off. After all, to get ANYWHERE in Europe we basically have to go through France, and they *still* expect us to speak French. C'est très ennuyant que je dois parler leur langue a chaque fois que je vais aller faire un tour du cote de l'Allemagne, par example :p
I can understand that because, although I am not French, it pisses me off when Japanese people (or other non-Westerners) assume that I am an English-speaker just because I am a Westerner.
Weeelll... we gotta admit that English is so widespread that any westerner wealthy enough to come to Japan probably does speak it... :lol:
Regards,
Keoland
They often use terms like "se quieres obtener este libro" in ads and newspapers and so forth... in Portugal, that is *unthinkeable*. To address grown people in that manner is a gross insult. Such treatment is reserved for small children, or people one knows really well, not the public at large.
Same in French, but it is changing among young people (especially in non business situations). The Italians use the informal form more freely than the French, Portuguese or Germans.
Also, would you really trust someone without qualifications :souka:
But do you usually know people's qualifications everytime you enter a shop, real estate agency or restaurant ?
Italian and spanish companies are often big at a *regional* level, because the countries are far less centralized than France or Portugal. In Portugal we usually have big companies, most of which used to be state-owned (and the state often keeps a 'golden share', even today).
Many Italian companies are still family-businesses. The Italians tend to distrust people outside their circle of family and friends. France is so formal and hierarchical that everything has to be on a national scale. Very sucessful companies in Italy are typically SME's (all the brand clothes, pasta makers, sport car makers, etc.), while really big companies are typically scandal-ridden or dysfunctional (e.g. FIAT, Olivetti, Parmalat, Italian banks...). French SME's son't have such a good reputation, but look at public companies like SNCF with its TGV (the first and most developed network in Europe), EDF with its nuclear power stations (the most in Europe), Air France, etc. Big banks and telecom companies are also much more successful in France than in Italy.
Yes, it's the second bit that ticks us off. After all, to get ANYWHERE in Europe we basically have to go through France, and they *still* expect us to speak French. C'est très ennuyant que je dois parler leur langue a chaque fois que je vais aller faire un tour du cote de l'Allemagne, par example
Not if you fly there. From Portugal, I'd expect you to fly to go anywhere in Europe (esp. with all the discount airlines nowadays), except Spain (for which you don't have to pass through France).
Weeelll... we gotta admit that English is so widespread that any westerner wealthy enough to come to Japan probably does speak it...
Does one need to be wealthy to go to Japan ? If you work there, your salary is adapted in function. If it's because of the flight, I usually find some under 500 euros return (but to/from London or Paris, not Lisbon).
The thing I find most perplexing about the French is the reluctance to accept new words into the language, or to borrow words from other languages. Probably the Japanese are too far the other way, but I think we have it about right in English. I can't see how progress is possible if you won't accept new words to express new ideas.
The thing I find most perplexing about the French is the reluctance to accept new words into the language, or to borrow words from other languages. Probably the Japanese are too far the other way, but I think we have it about right in English. I can't see how progress is possible if you won't accept new words to express new ideas.
The French are far from being unique in that regard. Look at the Finnish, Chinese, etc. which are more extreme than the French. In Finland, there is a special government commission to create new words when they don't exist. In France, the law only stipulated that foreign/English words couldn't be used when a French equivalent existed. But there are in fact penty of English words in French (most sport names, hundreds of computering terms, etc.) ]
Don't forget that English and Japanese are both hybrid languages, created from importing massively most of the vocabulary of another language (respectively French and Chinese). So it's much easier for these languages to accomodate new foreign words.
In Finland, there is a special government commission to create new words when they don't exist.
That sounds like FUN!!! I want to be in that government! :yeahh: :D
Hmm yeah, in school we were taught about some French people being resistant against incorporating English or American words into the language... but it was kind of implied that it was mainly older, more reactionary types who were against it... that younger people more readily assimilated words from other languages... which made sense to me at the time... :relief:
I am also for the prevention of foreign words into the local languages if there are equivalent terms in meaning and usage that can be utilised instead of foreign word.
Well, I must admit this is quite an accurate description... You just forgot our obsession
about our "exception culturelle"...
Oh! and it's not that most french people don't want to speak english, they actually can't!
Do you find any cultural differences between wine consumption countries v. beer consumption countries? I know people drink both, but I read an interesting data on beer/wine oriented countries somewhere before...
I know it was my poor French ability, but one of the reason why I quit studying French was that I realised I should study more English, not in France, but in a multilingual country.
This is just my excuse not to study French any more, not my generalisation at all. :)
I lived in France (Paris) for 4 years and I was surprised how ultra "Bourgeoise" the french are The ""FAMILY"" is the big thing in france.
no wonder they are having problems now
They should drop the 'Egalite, Fraternite, Liberte" from their currency because this was the France of a dream long gone.
France is an eliteist white country of priviledge with a surprising emphasis on ENA Science-Po, Ecole des Mines etc no wonder they are rioting!!! What a straightjacket! for the "non" french
I have watched a popular weekly debate programme (called "Ca se discute") on a French TV channel with topic "Why do French people have such a bad reputation abroad ?". The people invited to the debate where 3 Americans, 1 Irish, 1 Pole, 1 Afghan and 1 Quebecois, all living in France, and 3 French living abroad.
It was a very interesting debate, and served as a good self-criticism for French people. Many agreed that the main defects of the French are to be :
1) argumentative and raleur ( interestingly there is no exact translation in English, the closest being "grumpy", or "complaining a lot about anything"). They mentioned that French people were not afraid to say what they thought, even if it led them into trouble. This is even true in politics (e.g. argument about the war in Iraq). No wonder that the adjective "frank" comes from "France".
2) pretentious/arrogant/chauvinist (about their country and culture) => especially Parisians. Many people tend to confuse Parisians for all French people. However, even the French themselves agree that Parisians are much more arrogant and unpleasant than average. Unfortunately, most visitors to France get their first (or only) impression of France in Paris.
3) irrespectous of rules and laws => they mentioned that when a new law passed, an average French would determine him/herself whether it was reasonable enough to respect it. That is why even some police officers do not bother fining people smoking in non-smoking areas, if they disagree with that law, which is unthinkable in most of the English-speaking world.
4) bad at speaking foreign languages (especially English, although most English speakers cannot criticise them on this), or more specifically, be unfriendly to people who do not try to speak French (but so are people in English-speaking countries about English in my opinion). => especially Parisians
5) dirty (e.g. dog turds in the street; no shower before sex...), though elegant and charming.
Among the other (good or neutral) things they mentioned :
1) the image of the French lovers - although many women interviewed agreed that it often meant a lot of baratin ("sweet talk") uttered too lightly. The 3 Americans also agreed that French people are much more open about sex than Americans. People are not ashamed to talk openly about it, or to display nudity at any time of the day on TV (in commercials, series, movies...). French men also flirt more easily with anyone in the street, and are generally not afraid to have their advances turned down or "lose" (no fear of being a "loser" like in the US). Another interesting remark was that French women flirt less than American ones, and expect more initiative from men. One guy said that French women over 30 years old will rarely call a man if the man doesn't call them.
2) the relaxed and enjoyable lifestyle (the art de vivre). On this point, one American guy said he hadn't got used to French timetables yet. He explained that when you want to make a business phone call (esp. to a government office), you shouldn't do it before 9:30 to 10am as they only get started with their day and may be a bit grumpy or disorganised, then not between noon and 2 to 2:30pm as it is lunch time, and many place already close at 5 or 6pm, which leaves little time available. On many points, French-speaking Belgians are like the French, and this one is no exception. Despite being a Belgian, I also found it difficult to adapt to this system after living in countries like Japan, the UK or Germany.
3) the importance of feelings over money in relationship => the Americans agreed that in the US, no matter how good or sincere a person was, money typically came as a determining factor in a relationship, because people had to be "winners" with ambitions and money. They said it was normal to ask someone you were dating "how much money do you earn ?", which is unthinkable in France. People in France tend to hide how much money they make. In France, someone with a nice car get it scratched by envious people who think they'd deserve it too. Contrarily to the USA, people who succeed are much more respected.
In France, the law only stipulated that foreign/English words couldn't be used when a French equivalent existed.
I think you are speaking in formal sense. I notice the French like to use the word gstoph, but they do have the equivalent garrêth, especially when they are talking to their kids.
I could agree about the fact that everyone living in a country should speak the national language (if there is one). The French often refuse to speak English even to tourists (even when they can), because they still can't admit that French language has lost its place as the world's lingua franca. So, addressing a French person directly in English, without even trying to speak French, is a blow to their self-esteem. I can understand that because, although I am not French, it pisses me off when Japanese people (or other non-Westerners) assume that I am an English-speaker just because I am a Westerner.
I donft think the French are pretending to not able to speak English. I think on average their English speaking ability is not well because on average they are not very keen to learn foreign languages, with a certain number of exceptions. However if a Frenchman is to go live in Australia, Canada (not counting Quebec)...etc they will make effort to learn English and assimilate into the new host countries. They think it is normal.:-)
Itfs true it is not a good idea to speak directly to a French in English it is best to use some broken French then some broken English then they will do the same and bother to reply. This does not include the blacks and the Asians who are French citizens, ironically they are more willing to speak English to you if they can, at least from my personal experiences.:souka:
I have watched a popular weekly debate programme (called "Ca se discute") on a French TV channel with topic "Why do French people have such a bad reputation abroad ?". The people invited to the debate where 3 Americans, 1 Irish, 1 Pole, 1 Afghan and 1 Quebecois, all living in France, and 3 French living abroad.
I donft think French people have such bad reputation abroad, maybe just to other Western countries?:? In Asia in general they donft have bad reputation. If a French person goes to say HK for vacation s/he will be treated pretty much the same as an American who goes there for a visit. Most Asians who still live in Asia sees European decent people pretty much the same, generalizing I know but I think it is like that. I notice European decent people who donft have much experiences with Asians also tend to generalise Asians too.:blush:
Pretentious/arrogant/chauvinist (about their country and culture) => especially Parisians. Many people tend to confuse Parisians for all French people. However, even the French themselves agree that Parisians are much more arrogant and unpleasant than average. Unfortunately, most visitors to France get their first (or only) impression of France in Paris.
Yeah even some of the French from other provinces complain about the Parisianfs chauvinist/, pretentious/arrogant attitudes.:lol:
irrespectous of rules and laws => they mentioned that when a new law passed, an average French would determine him/herself whether it was reasonable enough to respect it. That is why even some police officers do not bother fining people smoking in non-smoking areas, if they disagree with that law, which is unthinkable in most of the English-speaking world.
Maybe, the French joke about that this is the reason why there can never be a gHitlerh in France.
Bad at speaking foreign languages (especially English, although most English speakers cannot criticise them on this), or more specifically, be unfriendly to people who do not try to speak French (but so are people in English-speaking countries about English in my opinion). => especially Parisians
The first time I went to Europe, I went with my sister. The French were the only European among all other Europeans who didnft try to communicate with us in English. At that time I spoke not one single word of French, and my sister had never learnt French in her life. She was instantly put off by such attitude, she thought they were making things difficult for tourists as English is the world language not French even though we were in France afterall we were just visiting. I wasnft as annoyed as my sister. I ended up learning French later on but not my sister.:haihai: Yes it was in Paris!:D
The image of the French lovers - although many women interviewed agreed that it often meant a lot of baratin ("sweet talk") uttered too lightly. The 3 Americans also agreed that French people are much more open about sex than Americans. People are not ashamed to talk openly about it, or to display nudity at any time of the day on TV (in commercials, series, movies...). French men also flirt more easily with anyone in the street, and are generally not afraid to have their advances turned down or "lose" (no fear of being a "loser" like in the US). Another interesting remark was that French women flirt less than American ones, and expect more initiative from men. One guy said that French women over 30 years old will rarely call a man if the man doesn't call them.
Never dated Americans, so I canft compare French to Americans, the two white Europeans decent people I have dated are Swiss and French. In terms of flirting they flirt equally the same, openness of sex, the same. Not sure about their womenfs sexual behaviours. though.:bluush:
The relaxed and enjoyable lifestyle (the art de vivre). On this point, one American guy said he hadn't got used to French timetables yet. He explained that when you want to make a business phone call (esp. to a government office), you shouldn't do it before 9:30 to 10am as they only get started with their day and may be a bit grumpy or disorganised, then not between noon and 2 to 2:30pm as it is lunch time, and many place already close at 5 or 6pm, which leaves little time available. On many points, French-speaking Belgians are like the French, and this one is no exception. Despite being a Belgian, I also found it difficult to adapt to this system after living in countries like Japan, the UK or Germany.
I am not so sure about this. I know for a fact many of the CEOs of companies in France go to work as early as 7:00 and come home around 20:00 to 22:00 and sometimes as late as 5:00 to 7:00 in the morning. I think it depends on what type of business. Some businesses open late and close early, thatfs true.:keitai: :beer:
the importance of feelings over money in relationship => the Americans agreed that in the US, no matter how good or sincere a person was, money typically came as a determining factor in a relationship, because people had to be "winners" with ambitions and money. They said it was normal to ask someone you were dating "how much money do you earn ?", which is unthinkable in France. People in France tend to hide how much money they make. In France, someone with a nice car get it scratched by envious people who think they'd deserve it too. Contrarily to the USA, people who succeed are much more respected.
Yes, thatfs why they donft really buy big cars to show off like the Americans.:hey:
I donft think French people have such bad reputation abroad, maybe just to other Western countries?:?
That's probably more in Europe and North America. They repeated many times that France tends to have a very good reputation as a country, and was still seen as a model for many things (lifestyle, fashion, food, romance...). But most Europeans/Americans will have heard the saying "France is such a beautiful country; the problem is French people". :p They mentioned that a few times in the debate on French TV (at least they are aware of it :blush: ). Yet, many of the foreigners living in France said that they liked the friendly atmosphere outside Paris, like chatting with the butcher or cheese seller or other customers, or the farmer that would help them when they are lost or their car has broken down. One thing to remember is that you will also be treated better and have a more enjoyable experience if you can speak some French. I think that it true for most country about speaking the local language.
Maybe, the French joke about that this is the reason why there can never be a gHitlerh in France.
Indeed. And that is why democarcy works better in France than in many other countries. Strikes (esp. public transports) were often mentioned among the negative things about France. But strikes and demonstrations against the government whenever the population disagrees with a new law (still happened 2 days ago :p ) is what, IMHO, one of the prerequisite to true democracy. That is the voice of the people. The French still haven't forgotten their revolutions, and will let their rulers know that they can still topple them if they don't do a good job.
I am not so sure about this. I know for a fact many of the CEOs of companies in France go to work as early as 7:00 and come home around 20:00 to 22:00 and sometimes as late as 5:00 to 7:00 in the morning. I think it depends on what type of business. Some businesses open late and close early, thatfs true.
It doesn't really depends on the type of business, but more on the responsibility level of the person. Self-employed people and company managers tend indeed to make much longer hours than average. However, in the public administration or regular shops, the working hours are quite restricted.
Yes, thatfs why they donft really buy big cars to show off like the Americans.:hey:
It depends what you call "big car". Here, a BMW or Mercedes Benz is considered fairly "normal". I was talking more about luxury sports car like Ferrari (which easily cost 10x the price of a BMW) or the even dearer Bentley or Rolls Royce (or long limousines in the US). You hardly ever see such cars in France or Belgium (but you do in the UK, Japan and especially US).
It doesn't really depends on the type of business, but more on the responsibility level of the person. Self-employed people and company managers tend indeed to make much longer hours than average. However, in the public administration or regular shops, the working hours are quite restricted.
Yes you made a good point that the level of responsibilities of individuals do make a difference in the number of hours they work.:cool: But I believe the type of business or job also influenced the employer/employeefs working hours. Like you said in the public administration or regular shops the working hours are indeed quite restricted.:haihai:
It depends what you call "big car". Here, a BMW or Mercedes Benz is considered fairly "normal". I was talking more about luxury sports car like Ferrari (which easily cost 10x the price of a BMW) or the even dearer Bentley or Rolls Royce (or long limousines in the US). You hardly ever see such cars in France or Belgium (but you do in the UK, Japan and especially US).
Hmmm No, I donft really see Bentley or Rolls-Royce here thatfs true but even with BMW and Benz are not so common in France. I notice the people who drive BMW are usually diplomats; with Benz it really is not so common in France, unless you want to count "Smart" by Mercedes Benz which I tend to see those more often on the road rather than Mercedes Benz. Most French have cars that have short bottoms, and the cars are quite small and they are usually French cars like Peugeot or Renault. Some Italian and Spanish cars are also seen.:car:
Hmmm No, I donft really see Bentley or Rolls-Royce here thatfs true but even with BMW and Benz are not so common in France. I notice the people who drive BMW are usually diplomats; with Benz it really is not so common in France, unless you want to count "Smart" by Mercedes Benz which I tend to see those more often on the road rather than Mercedes Benz. Most French have cars that have short bottoms, and the cars are quite small and they are usually French cars like Peugeot or Renault. Some Italian and Spanish cars are also seen.:car:
Look, I have lived most of my life near the border of France, I see cars immatriculated in France (recognisable from the plate) everyday, and I can tell you that BMW and Mercedes (or even Audi) are quite common, and certainly more common than Italian, British or American cars. In Belgium it's impossible to walk 5min in a city/town or drive 5min on the motorway without seeing several (big) BMW, Audi and Mercedes. These are "ordinary" cars, unlike Bentley's or Ferrari's, which are seen once a year or so.
Look, I have lived most of my life near the border of France, I see cars immatriculated in France (recognisable from the plate) everyday, and I can tell you that BMW and Mercedes (or even Audi) are quite common, and certainly more common than Italian, British or American cars. In Belgium it's impossible to walk 5min in a city/town or drive 5min on the motorway without seeing several (big) BMW, Audi and Mercedes. These are "ordinary" cars, unlike Bentley's or Ferrari's, which are seen once a year or so.
I see, :souka: but I am married to a Frenchman who has lived all of his life in France. Unless there are differences of the types of cars on the road between the section of France you live close to and the section of France we live in, I donft know how else to explain our different point of views.:?
I feel equally much amused and embarrassed to see how many of 'stereotypes' apply to me - even though my French blood is a relatively small amount (or in the words of my mother "like putting sodium into water" :okashii: :lol: ). But I find myself very much identifying with.........
argumentative and raleur... not afraid to say what they thought, even if it led them into trouble.
Argumentative is my middle name. Maybe it doesn't strike people that way on the internet, because in writing I can make a good effort :smug: but in real life - whew! :souka:
irrespectous of rules and laws => they mentioned that when a new law passed, an average French would determine him/herself whether it was reasonable enough to respect it.
not ashamed to talk openly about it [sex], or to display nudity at any time of the day
Ummmmmmmmm... yeah. Me. :sorry:
when you want to make a business phone call... you shouldn't do it before 9:30 to 10am as they only get started with their day and may be a bit grumpy or disorganised
Hell, my whole working time is spent being grumpy or disorganised... no, both! And heaven help those who call first thing in the morning... :bluush:
the importance of feelings over money in relationship
But I think a lot of people agree on that, yes? I certainly hope so! :souka: (unless that is why I am single... :( )
Strangely, I find Paris to be very friendly compared with the UK (especially London); I found people willing to easily start a relaxed conversation in some bar or other, in a very friendly way and to include you into their circle of friends, which was nice ^^... in the UK by contrast, I find people more reserved in these circumstances... especially in a bar, they will think you're trying to pick them up, or else they will be trying to pick you up... there is less of a how I say 'sense of cameraderie' and a more threatening feeling overall. :souka:
But generalisations / stereotypes, although interesting to discuss :p are of limited value anyway... there are always people who don't fit the stereotype... and then people like me who fit the wrong stereotype! :bluush:
Some of the things, like the working hours thing, are becoming IMO a bit old-fashioned... sure there is still truth in it, but as someone pointed out, things like non-late working depend on the company / business, and how senior the person is; some people will do it, or professional people have to do it.
That was an interesting post. You have me interested in the french culture now. A few stereotypes of Frenchmen apply to me. I am very argumentive, and I don't like recieving gifts that cost more money. Wouldn't you rather have someone put their feelings into a gift rather then get an expensive piece of technology? The expensive item is good too, but I'd rather have something that someone put thought into. Not a sleek new iPod, but maybe a book the person thought I would like.
1) The French like complicated things.
- Illustration :
- Example : The Economist (http://www.economist.com/World/europe/displayStory.cfm?story_id=4433398) describes the French tax system to be of 'fiendish complexity'. They cite, for instance over 40 deductions in the French pay-slip, as opposed to just 2 in Britain.
2) The French are theoretical. They prefer rhetoric, abstractions and ideas to facts and practical thinking.
- if Shakespeare had been a Frenchman, he would have said : "To be or not to be, that is the question. But the question is badly formulated."
- The French favour design over practicality. They like innovation for the sake of creativity, even when there is no practical need for it. (btw, this is all the opposite of the Japanese)
- The French raison d'etre is "measured intellectual performance".
3) The French political dilemma : an autocratic egalitarian society.
They claim to follow the 18th-century Revolutionary values of "liberty, equality and fraternity" (written on coins, stamps, etc.), but France is actually one of the most hierarchical and vertical society in the Western world. The political and economical systems are extremely elitists. A few chosen ones study at the Grandes Ecoles, then join the administration at a high-level from the start to "learn how the system works, and make connections", then become top executives in major public (or private) companies. There are very close ties between big businesses and the government in France, and executives are criticised for knowing better how the government and administration works, than their own company. This creates a huge gap between the top of the company and the rest.
French society and language are also exceedingly formal compared to most other countries.
4) The importance of forging relations.
Like the Spaniards, the French like to create relations with someone over a long lunch before starting making business with them. They need to get to know what kind of the person they are dealing with, and create an emotional bond.
5) The decision-making process
French people (e.g. managers) typically make a quick decision that they might revise later on. This is the opposite of the Germans who think carefully about all the possibilities then make a decision that they will not change afterwards.
There is more to say, but I will stop here for now.
1) I agree. But maybe not only french ppl. Italian rules and taxes are so complicated that is not possible to follow all them. Or this is the reason why I don't follow them :blush:
2) mmm... yes and no, in my opinion. I mean: european latin culture is mainly theoretical (it comes I suppose from greek culture and catholic theology). Anglo saxon have a pragmatic attitude (Including germans, of sure). In philosophy this is much more evident. But as a matter of fact it seems to me that french people are able to put abstractions into reality. Not the same for italians (don't know about spanish or portugal)
3) yes, it seems like this.
4) don't know. But I surely like to lunch with someone to know him/her better.
5) yes. And in Italy is almost the same. Quick decisions. Quick change of mind. Then again a change, and then another one...and so on. :-)
It's true that french ppl want you to speak french. Even if I met many kindly french that tried to understand my mix of italian french and english. Yes, in Paris too.
As you said, french ppl doesn't fargot their revolution. Thank to god, I add.
Sometimes they are rude, but without french history, europe could not to be Europe. Simply. In good and bad things. But maybe this is just a personal opinion, not an historical evidence.
Here are two quotes from the book A year in the merde, by Sephen Clarke (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1582346178/maciamojapan-20/104-6066459-7917524), that I think characterizes well the French mentality, especially in Paris :
- (after his French boss told a "striking" cafe waiter that he didn't care that he was on strike and wanted his dessert)
"I was witnesing an important lesson in Parisian life. I must't try to make people like me. That's much too English. You have got to show them that you don't give a shit what they think. Only then will you get what you want. I'd been doing it all wrong, trying to win people over. If you smile too much, they think you are retarded."
- (page 96, complaining about the ubiquitous dog turds on the Parisian pavements)
"Well, yes, it kind of sums up the French philosophy of life. You only ever think about yourselves. Instead of getting together to stop dogs from pooping on pavements, you just learn how not to step in the merde."
- (page 38, leaving the office for lunch)
"We left the building at 12:30 with "bon appétit" ringing in our ears. The people who saw us called it out like you would say "Happy Christmas". Every lunchtime, it seemed, was a celebration. And why not ?"
Here is something I heard on LCI (a French news and debate channe) and I found excellent :
"Paris is hell, but that's still the place where Parisians prefer to live."
hehe, that's pretty funny. :giggle: But to be fair Paris has nice points, but I think it depends whether you have money or not, and what you do for a living. Like life in any city, "it's alright for some". :wary:
In The Secret Life of France (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0571236111?ie=UTF8&tag=eupedia-21&link_code=as3&camp=2506&creative=9298&creativeASIN=0571236111), Lucy Wadham largely confirms my description of French culture and mindset.
Compared to the English, she perceives the French as :
- theoretical, obsessed about ideas (as opposed to the pragmatic, factual English)
- conformist and conservative in term of clothing (unlike the eccentric Brits)
- formal and civil when it comes to language (whereas the English are polite but informal)
- relaxed in their attitude to time (a world away from Germanic punctuality)
She rightly points out that French humour is actually more wit, with a heavy use of puns. The Brits, in contrast, like to make fun of themselves (something the image-conscious French can't understand) and have an acute sense of comic, absurd and sarcastic humour. Lucy Wadham writes that the French tend to prefer grandiose tragedy over comedy.
The French and English-speaking definition of freedom differs a lot, Wadham explains. For British or American people, freedom is linked to the sense of property and private space. Being free means owning your own house and having the right to protect it against intruders. I will add that "No trespassing" signs are indeed rare in French-speaking countries (or most of Europe outside the UK and Ireland). The French sense of freedom equates being freed from the burden of working so as to have free time to dedicate to one's hobbies and past times. This cultural difference is best illustrated by the attitude of the French vs British nobility in past centuries. While the French nobles had to leave their castle to attend the King's court in Versailles, the British aristocracy spent as much time (and money) in their castle as possible, because a big castle was the paragon of their status. Freedom for the French meant being able to enjoy your time as you liked, even if that meant staying at the King's court and abandoning their castle.
Gender roles represent another major cultural gap across the Channel. The Brits, like other Germanic and Protestant nations have become strongly feminist, giving rise to a strong tension between men and women. Men go out together, and women together, but the two groups do not mix much socially when they can avoid each others. France, like other Latin and Catholic countries, is just the opposite. Gender roles have not been shaken much by feminism in France, and society has consequently preserved a certain gender harmony, where men enjoy socialising with women and vice versa. Indeed, the French would be very bored without these constant male-female interactions and seduction games.
This relates to another primary cultural divergence. Aesthetics is one of the deepest French values. Beauty, elegance and charm are a national obsession. People have to be beautiful to be valued in France, however superficial that may sound to the British ears. In a society where both men and women put so much care (and artifice) about the way they look, it is only natural that seduction and gender roles should be of primordial importance. Wadham writes : "Paris is all about Beauty. Everything else - including such things as commercial gain, prosperity or efficiency - is secondary." She goes on saying that plastic surgery is five times as common in France as in Britain.
Seduction inevitably leads to sex, another French forte. According to a Durex survey I mentioned in the Interesting facts about France (http://www.eupedia.com/france/trivia.shtml) on this website, the French are the nation where people have the most sex in a year. Wadham reveals a hidden facet of Parisian bourgeoisie that is much more difficult observe than other cultural aspects of France : adultery. The second chapter of her book is entirely dedicated to it, and the book's title makes a reference to what she calls the Secret Garden, in reference to the French saying that everyone is entitled or his or her jardin secret (meaning "secret love life"). She explains that adultery does not carry the same strong negative feelings as in the UK, or even Italy, and that the French accept it as an inevitable and necessary part of life, as long as it is kept discreet. She says that most married people have at least one secret lover, and that both husbands and wives expect their partner to have one - although they don't want to know about it. France is still a libertine nation.
This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium, and maybe not that common outside the Parisian bourgeoisie. French-speaking Belgium would be much more like puritan Britain, I would say, where men and women are jealous and uncompromising about cheating. The figures speak for themselves; Belgium has the highest divorce rate in Western Europe just above Denmark and the UK.
This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium
...And not shared with France too.
It's just another typical anglo-saxon cliché about France. Useless.
Btw, the part about the French nobles also is completly false.
The Brits, in contrast, like to make fun of themselves (something the image-conscious French can't understand) and have an acute sense of comic, absurd and sarcastic humour. Lucy Wadham writes that the French tend to prefer grandiose tragedy over comedy
Please Maciano, stop to talk about france and French culture...
1- To make fun of ourself is the national sport in France...
2-We prefer tragedy???
Shakespeare was English...Molière was French...
The biggests success of our cinema in our country are:
-Bienvenue chez les ch'ti (comedy)...
-La grande vadrouille (comedy)...
-Les visiteurs (comedy)...
-Le corniaud (comedy)...
-Astérix et Obélix (comedy)...
-Le bronzés (comedy)...
-Le diner de cons (comedy)...
-etc...
VonRoust.. It is a subjective writing of Maciamo.
He just cited... An English article..
And says he largely agrees with it.
Well, I don't.
In The Secret Life of France, Lucy Wadham largely confirms my description of French culture and mindset.
It only proves how wrong the English think about Europe.
People in Belgium have a tendency to have a garage sale of their own heritage and culture.
First they supported the Spanish, then the Austrians, then the French, then the Germans, and now the British and Americans.
People in Belgium have a tendency to have a garage sale of their own heritage and culture.
First they supported the Spanish, then the Austrians, then the French, then the Germans, and now the British and Americans.
What are you talking about ? It is not because what is now Belgium passed from one country to another that Belgians "supported" these countries. I fail to grasp your point.
Please Maciano, stop to talk about france and French culture...
1- To make fun of ourself is the national sport in France...
VonRoust, you misunderstand a lot of what I write. I think it is because of your level of English. French people might like to make fun of other French people, or to criticise the government. But it is a rare thing to hear French people in an international community making fun of French language, culture and historical heritage. The French are very chauvinistic about their country, language and culture. Almost every time I tell a French speaker that French language has a poor vocabulary compared to English, French people almost automatically protest and try to defend their mother tongue. It's funny because it is also true of native French speakers in Belgium. I am myself a native French speaker, but my multilingualism has led me to have a more critical view of my own mother tongue.
2-We prefer tragedy???
Shakespeare was English...Molière was French...
The biggests success of our cinema in our country are:
-Bienvenue chez les ch'ti (comedy)...
-La grande vadrouille (comedy)...
-Les visiteurs (comedy)...
-Le corniaud (comedy)...
-Astérix et Obélix (comedy)...
-Le bronzés (comedy)...
-Le diner de cons (comedy)...
-etc...
Yes, I have seen all these films, and like all of them. But in the passage I quoted, Lucy Wadham wasn't writing about film-making, or literature for that matter. She was referring to French social and political life, to the way people interact with each others. One excellent example of grandiose tragedy is what is happening with Dominique Strauss-Kahn now. ;-) You have to admit that there is little comedy in French business or politics. Contrarily to American, Australian or British politicians or CEO's who like to open a meeting or conference with a joke, the French look very serious. High-ranking French people like to look important, grandiose... France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people (especially Scandinavians) as well as English speakers (especially Australians and Americans).
What are you talking about ? It is not because what is now Belgium passed from one country to another that Belgians "supported" these countries. I fail to grasp your point.
Well.. It's very simple. People in Belgium are accustomed to blow with every wind.
I am Dutch, and I know the Dutch have also done that. But don't make an intellectual fuzz about it.
But if there is one thing I don't like, is the way English write about other people.
English humor is very rare.
Only brought by true English intellectuals.. Like the Monty Python team.
For the rest the English are quite boring.
And a lot of humor is very cheap. For instance.. Benny Hill..
In The Netherlands cabaret and also stand up comedians with a sharp political and sarcastic style of entertaining were influenced by comedians in Paris.
In Belgium the people were totally unaware of that.
Some Belgian artists were only accepted in Belgium, after they had a successful tour in The Netherlands.
I know the people of the French speaking part of Belgium wanted to identify themselves with France years ago, but the French only see them as "More Roman than the Pope".
I speak 4 languages, Dutch, German, French and English, and I pretty well experienced what Europeans think of each other.
And my sympathy goes to...
France.. Twelve Points... Douze Points.
Germany.. Eleven Points ... Onze Points.
This were the points I give. The rest gets nothing.
One remark.. I hope the French kick Sarkozy out of office soon.
And Maciamo, it isn't very wise to cite a text from an English writer.
They didn't die from the first lie they wrote, and even all the other lies they produced after that.
The best way to solve a lot of problems in the EU is to throw the English out!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KaIE8Tc0Lw&feature=related
The best way to solve a lot of problems in the EU is to throw the English out!But they do a lot of things with European countries...
With the passage of time, our economics and political differences will disappear and they will understand that U.E. is the best way to peace and social innovations...
The French has changed their point of view about England since "Eurotunnel" have been built...and i think the reverse is true :drunk:
They are our oldest allies and our best enemies...
The French are theoretical. They prefer rhetoric, abstractions and ideas to facts and practical thinking.
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.
Find me, in the English litterature, something that can compare to La Démocratie en Amérique by Alexis de Tocqueville: nothing, niets, nada!
Have you ever read Das Spektrum Europas, of Hermann Keyserling? If not, you should. This book was first published in the 20's and is still amazingly insightful. Here again, the quality of equivalent British/American essays is just appalling.
IFrance is still a libertine nation.
This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium, and maybe not that common outside the Parisian bourgeoisie. French-speaking Belgium would be much more like puritan Britain, I would say, where men and women are jealous and uncompromising about cheating. The figures speak for themselves; Belgium has the highest divorce rate in Western Europe just above Denmark and the UK.
Divorce rate is per se of no significance if marriage rate is not taken into account.
In France, like in Scandinavia and UK, about half of all births happen out of wedlock. Surprisingly, Belgium clusters with Southern Europe with less than 25%, which probably reflects the strength of the Catholic church in Flanders.
I recently had a look on Mrs Wadham's book. Honestly, it's a heap of sweeping generalizations and flat out demented assumptions. One of few interesting pages is the one when she says being ashamed at the pervading and illogical British hatred of the French, which she admits is not at all reciprocated.
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.
I'm feeling something,....feeling strong emotions.... emotions of ....hmmm,...nationalizem?
Viva la France!
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.
And you expect me to think that you are not entirely biased toward your country ? (to the point of jingoistic bigotry, obviously)
Divorce rate is per se of no significance if marriage rate is not taken into account.
In France, like in Scandinavia and UK, about half of all births happen out of wedlock. Surprisingly, Belgium clusters with Southern Europe with less than 25%, which probably reflects the strength of the Catholic church in Flanders.
You are not contradicting my assertion that France is more libertine than Belgium, Britain or Germanic countries. The French are much more free about sex, more open about marriage and take cheating more lightly, almost as an inevitable part of life.
It's interesting that in that regard the French are culturally closer to the Japanese, with the notable difference that the French are less scrupulous about dissimulating their affairs (the French would have sex with their extra-marital lovers at work, in a car or even in the conjugal bed, rather than in a discreet and anonymous "love hotel", ubiquitous in Japan).
The thing I find most perplexing about the French is the reluctance to accept new words into the language, or to borrow words from other languages.This is my first post on the forum. I am the first generation born in the US from a French speaking family from Quebec. I am trying to understand my French heritage and this seems to be a wonderful place to learn. I believe to learn a culture one has to understand their history. Not the history of kings and queens but the history of the people. So I pose this more as a question then a statement. My understanding of Modern French is that in reality it is a relatively new language. Before the French revolution if one left Paris and traveled into the interior of France a person would have a great deal of difficulty understanding the langauge. In fact one village would find it difficult to understand the next village. The French revolution took great efforts to standardize the language and eradicate these dialects. Eventually not speaking proper French was taken as a sign of ignorance and through time generalized to all non french languages. This is just a speculative thought.
The thing I find most perplexing about the French is the reluctance to accept new words into the language, or to borrow words from other languages.This is my first post on the forum. I am the first generation born in the US from a French speaking family from Quebec. I am trying to understand my French heritage and this seems to be a wonderful place to learn. I believe to learn a culture one has to understand their history. Not the history of kings and queens but the history of the people. So I pose this more as a question then a statement. My understanding of Modern French is that in reality it is a relatively new language. Before the French revolution if one left Paris and traveled into the interior of France a person would have a great deal of difficulty understanding the langauge. In fact one village would find it difficult to understand the next village. The French revolution took great efforts to standardize the language and eradicate these dialects. Eventually not speaking proper French was taken as a sign of ignorance and through time generalized to all non french languages. This is just a speculative thought.
The standardisation of languages is a very recent process. It is not until universal compulsory education was introduced in the late 19th or early 20th century that one standard language became spoken by the whole population of large European countries like France, Germany, Italy or Spain. It is only since WWI (when soldiers from all parts of the country met on a daily basis), then with the media revolution (radio from the 1920's, then TV in the 1950's) that people who traditionally spoke dialect started preferring the standard form though.
France was actually somewhat of a pioneer in standardising language in the late 18th century, although modern French is just a slight evolution of the traditional Parisian French dialect of the 17th and 18th centuries. What changed most is the way of speaking rather than the spelling or grammar. It is probably easier for modern French speakers to understand 17th century Parisian French (e.g. Molière) than it is for English speakers to understand 17th-century Southeast English (Shakespeare).
The standardisation of languages
Pity
The joy of finding and listening different languages/dialects with the one language in a country is tremendous. Hope I am not around when everyone speaks one boring same same same old language within a country. yarn....
For you Sile :good_job:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_France#Language_education
2) pretentious/arrogant/chauvinist (about their country and culture) => especially Parisians. Many people tend to confuse Parisians for all French people. However, even the French themselves agree that Parisians are much more arrogant and unpleasant than average. Unfortunately, most visitors to France get their first (or only) impression of France in Paris.
Maciamo, like you I traveled quite a bit. I agree that Parisians are more pretentious and chauvinistic than the rest of France. But with regard to other countries, the impression that the French are worse on that front is mostly due to a "first impression"; other cultures for instance (brits and Americans) will put more smiles and nice forms to it, but if you discuss deeply with an American or a Brit you will very quickly come to face with a firm belief that (as Americans put it) "America is the greatest country on Earth".
Same thing with the dutch, spaniards, Italians and Germans.
I once had a conversation with a nice British lady. the convo then fell on Johan of Arc; Within seconds, the Union Jack was brandished up and high and I thought she would burn me to the stake right there!!!
"This delusional slut!!" she went....
Maciamo, like you I traveled quite a bit. I agree that Parisians are more pretentious and chauvinistic than the rest of France. But with regard to other countries, the impression that the French are worse on that front is mostly due to a "first impression"; other cultures for instance (brits and Americans) will put more smiles and nice forms to it, but if you discuss deeply with an American or a Brit you will very quickly come to face with a firm belief that (as Americans put it) "America is the greatest country on Earth".
Same thing with the dutch, spaniards, Italians and Germans.
I once had a conversation with a nice British lady. the convo then fell on Johan of Arc; Within seconds, the Union Jack was brandished up and high and I thought she would burn me to the stake right there!!!
"This delusional slut!!" she went....
Eheh, Italy the greatest country on Earth as firm belief? Good joke! =D xD
Eheh, Italy the greatest country on Earth as firm belief? Good joke! =D xD
Ricardo,
During the final of the world cup 2006 (France - Italy) I was on an italian cruse ship in the Mediteranean.
So I watched and cheered my team (France) alone with my wife in the middle of thousands of Italians. I can tell you, Italians are quite chauvinistic when it comes to their team. When Zidane head quicked the Italian, I thought they would throw me overboard.
Also dont talk to an Italian about Mona Lisa because as a frenchman you might be treated just short of a thief...
I guess in a sense every country wants to be respected; if one country starts to believe that someone else is trying to take over, the locals will draw the claws; the question is how deep is that chauvinism and under pressure how hard will you fight to defend your way of life....
It doesn't matter where in the world there are always some people who are either arrogant, ignorant, superior, chauvanistic, pretentious, or just plain stupid (lol). I don't think these faults are dependent on any one nationality, rather they are human and depend entirely on the mentality or outlook of the individual.
It doesn't matter where in the world there are always some people who are either arrogant, ignorant, superior, chauvanistic, pretentious, or just plain stupid (lol). I don't think these faults are dependent on any one nationality, rather they are human and depend entirely on the mentality or outlook of the individual.
We this kind of attitude we are never going to be able to discuss cultural differences between countries, and specificities of regions like Paris. I do believe it makes a big psychological difference to be raised in in a proud and beautiful city like Paris, once the centre of the Western world, and still the global capital of fashion, gastronomy, etc. It's not that difficult to imagine why individuals who are used to the Parisian lifestyle since their childhood could be tempted to look down on country backwaters or less gorgeous or exciting parts of the world. City people have always had a tendency to feel superior to country people. The apotheosis of city life resides in Paris, London and New York more than anywhere else on Earth. However, Paris is special by being more elitist than London or New York in many respects. London and New York are overwhelmingly populated by outsiders who moved in and created cosmopolitan cities. Paris was built by the French elite for the French elite, and looks down on outsiders.
We this kind of attitude we are never going to be able to discuss cultural differences between countries, and specificities of regions like Paris. I do believe it makes a big psychological difference to be raised in in a proud and beautiful city like Paris, once the centre of the Western world, and still the global capital of fashion, gastronomy, etc. It's not that difficult to imagine why individuals who are used to the Parisian lifestyle since their childhood could be tempted to look down on country backwaters or less gorgeous or exciting parts of the world. City people have always had a tendency to feel superior to country people. The apotheosis of city life resides in Paris, London and New York more than anywhere else on Earth. However, Paris is special by being more elitist than London or New York in many respects. London and New York are overwhelmingly populated by outsiders who moved in and created cosmopolitan cities. Paris was built by the French elite for the French elite, and looks down on outsiders.
What is being discussed is snobbery, which is not a cultural difference. That, unfortunately, is to be found (in one form or another) everywhere. Personally, I haven't found Parisians to be any worse than in other places like London or Athens.
I agree that city dwellers look down on country people, but the sentiment is also returned. Country people are also quite disparaging about city people and find endless source for amusement in the (supposed) ignorance of city dwellers to the country and it's way of life. It is all very silly really and has been going on as long as I can remember, more than likely since man first began to live in towns and cities as opposed to those who farmed the land.
Maciamo,
I will first clearly state that I am French although I am not living in France anymore and being married with a German.
Well, I read the whole thread and I am pretty amazed by several things :
1/ Talking about "the french culture" you stated almost only negative things (the first 6 points you mentioned are critics more or less disguised).
2/ Your reference and therefore your "analyse" is not neutral but based on anglo-saxon books. Therefore, your way of talking about "French culture" is a comparison with the anglo-saxon one. Is the anglo-saxon THE culture we (human beings) have to refer to juge another one ?
These 2 points are related as these kind of english books treating about French culture are almost only critical or often simply the evidence of a lack of sensitivity (is that an english word?) and comprehension of another culture as theirs. Everyone could personnaly juge what culture is the most arrogant...
These 2 points have also in common to seem to be neutral or innocent although there are not. Maybe (and that's what I think) you didn't even notice that they were ideologically charged.
3/ Getting more specifics. I agree with some points. The 1st 3 for example. The 4th and 5th ones sound a little bit more problematic to my ears because there are a bit big (english) clichés that are mostly not true.
4/ The english language. Well, except that is again a typical pro-english motivated refraint, as someone said before me: French don't speak english to tourists cause they mostly cannot. As simple as that. And the explanation lies principaly in the way we learn foreign languages at school : "never speak, but listen and write". People don't trust themselves. beside, I'd like to add that : a/we don't have to speak english and it's disturbing to take that lack of knowledge (or lack of envy) as a reproach. No one has to to tell us we have to speak english (as harsh as it sounds). b/ other european countries don't do better. Spain, Italy for example. And young people in GB or Ireland can also only one language. For me it's basically the worst.
5/ Arrogance ? Actually, I never fully understood that point. But as a French abroad I often feel the arrogance of the others. Well, I guess, you never see "arrogance" in your own culture but it's basically in diverse forms in every culture. I lived in Germany and in many ways there are arrogant (well, problems come always from the others...). Not talking about the Danish with their national flags everywhere (even on the birthday cake!) and their anti-european tendancies (well Danemark is better...), Italians and so on, it's endless...
One thing : "service" is different in France and in the US. The feeling that the french taxi driver or waiter is arrogant come often from the fact that he doesn't want to take the time to be polite and helpful with the american tourist.
And the last thing about that : how contradictory to say that the french dont show off with big cars/money and that they are arrogant ? In Germany cars are a very strong status symbol (as in the US), is that not a kind of arrogance (I have money and I show it to you/you don't have this car so you're poor ...) ?
6/ However, I would add : the need for being independant (well, contrary to Germans we never considered ourselves "inferiors" to Americans). Which can been seen as "arrogance".
Also : as the British (we have many common points to my opinion), we had an empire, we lost it and our prestige, we are very critical towards ourselves and tend to dislike us a lot as in the same time we love ourselves and are secretely very proud of being what we are. Hence, like the British we are in a kind of "identity crisis".
7/ Playing with our language is very important. There is a lot of humour in the french society. Words are often used in 2 different meanings at the same tme which lead to ambiguity. We play (I mean the ones who can and care for that) a lot with it. Hence, our society is very "sexualised". Language play a strong part in this sexualisation of the society. That is very french !
8/ Down on earth. As the Germans and unlike the British, French generally don't like to spend the money they don't have on their accounts.
9/I disagree with your sentence : "France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people". Actually I agree with the part about France but it's the same or worse in Germani countries such as Germany, Austria or Switzerland where titles are eveywhere in the public life (on the ring bell you are Dip. Ing. etc) and where hierarchy is as strongly seeable as in France if not worse sometimes. Scandinavians are much more informal. And of course THE reference : the US and the Brits...
10/ you wrote : "The French take cheating more lightly, almost as an inevitable part of life". Wow. Yes and now. Reading that could lead to believe everyone is cheating all the time. It's a very serious question and a source of broken families and divorces. That is not taken lightly, there is simply less hypocrasy than in the anglo-saxon societies and less puritanism and morality. And as you added : "It's interesting that in that regard the French are culturally closer to the Japanese". Well, maybe because as the Japanese, French are pretty much laics. Well, I guess that's again a very positive french thing you failed to notice.
But this is huge boll***s : "with the notable difference that the French are less scrupulous about dissimulating their affairs (the French would have sex with their extra-marital lovers at work, in a car or even in the conjugal bed)". This is an americanised view of France. Ridiculous.
2/ Your reference and therefore your "analyse" is not neutral but based on anglo-saxon books. Therefore, your way of talking about "French culture" is a comparison with the anglo-saxon one. Is the anglo-saxon THE culture we (human beings) have to refer to juge another one ?
My point of view cannot be an "Anglo-Saxon" one since I am a native French speaker with relatives in France. I have met French people from all parts of France, studied with French people, worked with French people, frequented French expat communities abroad (e.g. in Japan), and watched French TV since I was a child like any French person. It's not because I am critical that I am biased. On the contrary, I believe that the only way to truly understand one's own culture is to distance oneself from it by living far away from it and embracing another culture for long enough to see things completely differently once you go back home. I did it several times, since I have lived in 6 non-Francophone countries and learnt the language and culture every time. Each of these experiences brought me new insight into my native culture. I did quote the work of two English writers here, but only because I agreed with these specific passages. It's really not much among all the books I have read, and sometimes English people can be right about the French, especially if like Richard Hill they have lived abroad most of their lives and a long time in France or Belgium.
It also made me realise that Francophone Belgium is really just another region of France, with its small regional peculiarities, but on the whole is overwhelmingly part of the French mainstream culture and way of thinking. In fact, southern regions like Auvergne or Languedoc are less similar to Parisian and North French culture than French-speaking Belgium is. Before living abroad, like most Belgians, I would never have agreed that the Francophone Belgians are so similar to the French, but viewed from a distance (be it India, Australia or Japan), it is painfully obvious.
As for the rest of your comments, it looks like you haven't been much out of France, except on holiday to neighbouring European countries. You keep comparing the French to the Brits, the Germans or the Italians, but I don't see any reference to the Indians, Thais, Chinese, Papuans or whatever other truly different culture. For example :
9/I disagree with your sentence : "France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people". Actually I agree with the part about France but it's the same or worse in Germani countries such as Germany, Austria or Switzerland where titles are eveywhere in the public life (on the ring bell you are Dip. Ing. etc) and where hierarchy is as strongly seeable as in France if not worse sometimes. Scandinavians are much more informal.
You are comparing neighbouring countries with a common history going back to the Paleolithic (let's say 40,000 years ago), and that only split from each other in the Middle Ages (about 1000 years ago, although Alsace and Lorraine last switched in the 20th century). From a genetic point of view many North and East French people are nearly undistinguishable from West or Southwest Germans and the Swiss. When you know that a substantial part of the character (including national character) has its roots in our genes, it's pretty evident why the French and the Germans aren't that different, apart from their languages.
And of course THE reference : the US and the Brits...
...
This is an americanised view of France. Ridiculous.
Why would you think that I take the USA as a reference culture ? I personally never mentioned the US or Americans once ! (I did quote a passage of EuroManagers comparing the Americans and French, but the author is neither).
My point of view cannot be an "Anglo-Saxon" one since I am a native French speaker with relatives in FranceOh please Maciano, you take UK as a reference, it's obvious. You like France but not the French, that all...
Same conclusion with the threads "Greatest contributions to the world", you forget to mention a lot of French "contributions", but the English one is full...
spongetaro
05-10-11, 17:13
Oh please Maciano, you take UK as a reference, it's obvious. You like France but not the French, that all...
Same conclusion with the threads "Greatest contributions to the world", you forget to mention a lot of French "contributions", but the English one is full...
The problem is not the "Greatest contributions..." thread but the sociological threads like "Do the French lack humour" that are only made on Maciamo's personal impressions
Oh please Maciano, you take UK as a reference, it's obvious. You like France but not the French, that all...
Same conclusion with the threads "Greatest contributions to the world", you forget to mention a lot of French "contributions", but the English one is full...
That's not true at all. The list of French contributions (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?16869-Greatest-French-contributions-to-the-world) is the longest (along with the British) of the 16 lists I have made. I have used all the 20 fields available in the poll and had to pack as much as possible into each category. What would you have added to the list, and instead of what ?
The problem is not the "Greatest contributions..." thread but the sociological threads like "Do the French lack humour" that are only made on Maciamo's personal impressions
So mistaken again. I thought I was clear at the beginning of that thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?17494-Do-the-French-lack-humour) when I wrote "I admit that I prefer the French style of witty humour and wordplays to the light-hearted and self-derisory British humour." I was actually contesting what the Economist wrote.
Anyway, I think that the reactions of the French members to this thread have shown another facet of the French mentality : they cannot accept criticism of their culture because they see it as superior to other cultures.
So mistaken again. I thought I was clear at the beginning of that thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?17494-Do-the-French-lack-humour) when I wrote "I admit that I prefer the French style of witty humour and wordplays to the light-hearted and self-derisory British humour." I was actually contesting what the Economist wrote.
Anyway, I think that the reactions of the French members to this thread have shown another facet of the French mentality : they cannot accept criticism of their culture because they see it as superior to other cultures.
Why should anyone accept criticism, if one knows that an opinion is valid and true.
Americans and English often offend the French, I don't understand why.
The Belgians, are a bunch of imitators of French and Dutch culture, or even German!!!
Goddamn! Be proud of your own culture!
My ancestors are Celts, and come from Belgium and Northern France for sure!
I am proud of it, NOT to be Dutch or Belgian, but CELTIC!
If there is one country in Europe that wounded continental Europe with many wars over and over again, it's the English. Or the Normans. The Vikings and the Saxons.
Did you ever read some history? :useless:
Ricardo,
During the final of the world cup 2006 (France - Italy) I was on an italian cruse ship in the Mediteranean.
So I watched and cheered my team (France) alone with my wife in the middle of thousands of Italians. I can tell you, Italians are quite chauvinistic when it comes to their team. When Zidane head quicked the Italian, I thought they would throw me overboard.
Also dont talk to an Italian about Mona Lisa because as a frenchman you might be treated just short of a thief...
I guess in a sense every country wants to be respected; if one country starts to believe that someone else is trying to take over, the locals will draw the claws; the question is how deep is that chauvinism and under pressure how hard will you fight to defend your way of life....
Riccardo*
You made a typical Spanish mistake, they use to call me Ricardo. xD
Anyhow, if we're talking about football ok, you're right, and add that there's a BIG rivalry beetween Italy and France. But it's really rare to find a chauvinist Italian! The most of us think that Italy is full of problems and Italians are full defects, on the contrary of many people that I heard from other countries.
Maciamo
I said that your point of view is anglo-saxon because YOU started this thread by quoting english or american writers. Because wherever you come from, YOUR guideline is definitely an anglo-saxon one. And I stand by my previous comment or please just bring anything serious to discuss this point of view, anything else that "I come from Wallonie..."
Beside, that only answer you gave leads to the question of your own identity. And the fact that you discovered very late and painfuly (I quote you : "I would never have agreed that the Francophone Belgians are so similar to the French, but viewed from a distance it is painfully obvious") that your culture was also (well actually it's "mainly" and not "also") French gives some answers to why these contradictions toward the French culture. You're just pissed to be so French ! So be Belgian. Maybe it's impossible... but that's another question.
I've been out of France in many countries. I lived outside Europe. Maybe not as often as you. Maybe, but who cares. It's not a contest. Everyone has his own experiences but it doesn't seem that everyone has the same abilities to analyse a culture...
Ah that's just rich to say that I didn't quote Indians, Thai, Chinese or Papuans because ...you did not either, as far as I noticed you 're good at quoting english books, not much more.
You seem to stress one needs to have a critical point of view but your only words about French culture are negative ones. I started to give some positive aspects of the french culture without denying the negative ones. You can go on if you are of goodwill and are as neutral as you claim...
Don't pretend to be surprised if people react with criticism toward you. 1/Because it's unfair from your part to stress only the negative aspects. Or just rename the thread, please. 2/Because your critics are typical anglo-saxons ones that are to be read in every (bad) book about France written from an English journalist or a pseudo-neo-ethnologist traveling from Saint Germain des Près to Provence to buy overpriced wine and complaining about the coffee (yes, there are not many Starbucks in France, dear !).
All your text about my so-called comparison between France and Germany is totaly irrelevant. 1/ I never said that French and Germans are the same. 2/ your point about Paleolithic times is just pedantry that doens't bring anything intelligent to this conversation. And I don't even talk about your pseudo ethno-genetic analysis cause it's obvious you don't know what you're talking about.
You are able to start a thread about "the French culture" and then say : 'it's pretty evident why the French and the Germans aren't that different'.
Well, in my opinion, that seems enough to disqualify you for talking about the whole thread.
3/ well, you simply contradict yourself. I quote you again : "France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people". I replied saying : it's not true, France has similarities to "Germanic" countries. And now you tell me that: "it's pretty evident why the French and the Germans aren't that different". ... Well make up your mind !
So, what I don't like is :
- that you present and insist only about negative trends.
- that you try to pretend things are simple when they are actually much more complex.
- that you adopt a strong anglo-saxon point of view (you quote only english books). And the fact you don't really now what your own culture is gives some answers.
- that you pretend to have a "neutral" approach when you are biased and that "criticism is healthy". That is true but only when it's constructive but that's not your case.
- so I feel you are simply not honest. Maybe you're not even honest with yourself, first.
Last thing :
Maybe French people tend to see their culture as superior. Maybe I do in some extend. Maybe I am just honest and know what the good sides and the bad sides of my culture are. Maybe it's just my culture and I can't change it anyway. And I am very critical toward the French culture.
But to see it's own culture as superior is the case of every country in this world, dear. (Did you really travel with open eyes/ears and brian and met anyone) ? What is typical French for me is to think that "it's typical French to be proud of our own culture". In other terms, French are proud but tend to be the only ones to be ashamed to be proud. And then tend to be very critical towards themselves, wich is a kind of auto-destructive culture. This is the French culture we're living in.
Thank you
Maciamo
I said that your point of view is anglo-saxon because YOU started this thread by quoting english or american writers.
I didn't quote any American writer. Anyway I had to quote something in English for the purpose of this forum, as it is in English only. Stop wasting my time.
You're just pissed to be so French ! So be Belgian. Maybe it's impossible... but that's another question.
I am fed up with this kind of petty behaviour. I see myself as European and I am proud of my multicultural background (genetic, linguistic or other), be it French, German, Dutch or English. But you just got yourself banned for pissing me. Next time think before attacking the admin of a forum in your second post.
Ah that's just rich to say that I didn't quote Indians, Thai, Chinese or Papuans because ...you did not either, as far as I noticed you 're good at quoting english books, not much more.
Have you read all my posts on the forum, and my articles outside the forum (including the France Guide (http://www.eupedia.com/france/)) and my other forums in link (Japan Forum (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/) and China Forum (http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/china-forum-142/)) ? Once you have read everything come again. I don't know you as you just signed up here, but you can know me and my opinions very easily. So before you make stupid assumptions about me, just read a bit of context before.
3/ well, you simply contradict yourself. I quote you again : "France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people". I replied saying : it's not true, France has similarities to "Germanic" countries. And now you tell me that: "it's pretty evident why the French and the Germans aren't that different". ... Well make up your mind !
It's hardly a contradiction. It's because you are uneducated. Germanic countries are essentially Scandinavia, the Netherlands and North Germany. Most of Germany was originally Celtic, and it is now Celto-Germanic, like Britain or Belgium or Northern and Eastern France. Simple people are easily deceived by words. It's not because a country is called Germany that it is the source of Germanic people (not any more than France is populated in majority by Frankish people (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24350-Is-France-a-misnomer)). You cannot possibly understand anything I write if you make this kind of mistake. See things for what they truly are, not what people call them. To illustrate this, it's not because I write in English and quote works in English that my point of view is English (or "Anglo-Saxon" as the French stupidly insist on saying, although the Anglo-Saxon where an ancient tribe from North Germany/Netherlands, not any modern group of humans ; that is a term that annoys me every time I hear it).
So, what I don't like is :
- that you present and insist only about negative trends.
You will note that I have so far only written threads about the French and the Belgians (in this series) because they are the two cultures that I know the most intimately. That's also why I am more comfortable criticising them. But I don't understand how you can perceive everything I wrote here as negative. You are oversensitive. Saying that the French are râleurs or like complicated things (and actually that also applies to French-speaking Belgians - same mindset) is not exactly a well guarded secret, nor a personal opinion - it is more like a well-accepted truth among French speakers themselves. No administration is more complex than the French and Belgian ones. No people on earth are more ready to complain about work or go on strike than French speakers.
- that you try to pretend things are simple when they are actually much more complex.
Do you want me to write a book ? How many of my threads or articles about France have you read ? All of them ? Have I been less critical of other countries ? You should try reading some of my articles about Japan or the USA ! I don't write enough positive stuff about France ? What about the list of greatest French contributions (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?16869-Greatest-French-contributions-to-the-world) (all of them my suggestions), or when I earnestly defended the French (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24137-Do-the-French-deserve-their-reputation-as-weak-kneed) when the Americans accused them of being cowards because they opposed the war in Iraq ? You are the kind of person who judges a book by opening a page in the middle and quote things out of context, except that here the book is Eupedia and the page is this thread. How do you expect to be taken seriously ?
Je continue en Français, après tout le linge sale se lave en famille^^
Tout d'abord je tenais à te préciser que nos remarques ne contiennent aucunes agressivités d'aucunes sortes, du moins je n'ai pas l'impression qu'il y en ait dans nos messages respectifs.
Ensuite ce n'est pas que l'on refuse d'être critiqué mais je trouve personnellement que tu nous charges énormément, pour toi nous sommes:
Arrogant
Fier
Chauvin
Feignant
Râleur
Condescendant
On est intolérant envers ceux qui parlent mal notre langue
Même tarif pour les étragners aux forts accents
Elitiste
On rigole des gens dans leurs dos
On est trop formel
Notre langue est trop rigide
Etc...
Ca fait beaucoup quand même, non?
En plus tu nous dis ici même que l'on n'accepte pas les critiques, or on ne rejette pas TOUTES les critiques (oui on est chauvin/râleur/fier), mais certaines d'entre elles me semblent injustifiées et d'autres sont de vieux stéréotypes.
A la limite si tu faisais subir le même traitement de faveur aux autres pays je ne dirais rien, mais ce n'est pas le cas. La France est le seul pays pour lequel tu as créé autant de sujets aussi critiques.
Et concernant les topics "Greatest contributions..." tu t'es parfaitement appliqué pour celui de l'Angleterre et j'approuve tout ce que tu y mentionnes, c'est un très grand pays et tu as parfaitement choisi leurs plus beaux cadeaux, mais ce n'est pas la même chose pour nous, désolé.
Tu listes "la pétanque", "teffal", "la chanson Française" ou "la mongolfière", pourquoi?
Pourquoi ne pas avoir cité le système métrique, la chimie avec Lavoisier qui a découvert et listé presque tous les éléments connus, la médecine en générale (surtout la vaccination avec Auzias-Turenne et Pasteur), l'organisation des premières coupe du monde de rugby et de football, les innovations sociales ou encore l'encyclopédie?
C'est quand même plus valorisant qu'un sport marginal ou qu'une invention obsolète.
Enfin, ce n'est que mon avis^^
To illustrate this, it's not because I write in English and quote works in English that my point of view is English (or "Anglo-Saxon" as the French stupidly insist on saying, although the Anglo-Saxon where an ancient tribe from North Germany/Netherlands, not any modern group of humans ; that is a term that annoys me every time I hear it).
Quite rightly, to refer to the modern English as Anglo/Saxon is inaccurate and usually displays an ignorance and bias on the part of the person who uses it.
Et aller ça continue :wary2:
The term "Anglo-Saxon" is sometimes used to refer to peoples descended or associated in some way with the English ethnic group. The definition has varied from time to time and varies from place to place.
"Anglo-Saxon" can be used in a variety of contexts, often to identify the English-speaking world's distinctive language, culture, technology, wealth, markets, economy, and legal systems.
Germans says "Franckreich" and not "France", ignorance or stupidity? Make your choice^^
Tu listes "la pétanque", "teffal", "la chanson Française" ou "la mongolfière", pourquoi?
Pourquoi ne pas avoir cité le système métrique, la chimie avec Lavoisier qui a découvert et listé presque tous les éléments connus, la médecine en générale (surtout la vaccination avec Auzias-Turenne et Pasteur), l'organisation des premières coupe du monde de rugby et de football, les innovations sociales ou encore l'encyclopédie?
C'est quand même plus valorisant qu'un sport marginal ou qu'une invention obsolète.
Enfin, ce n'est que mon avis^^
Ok, merci pour les recommandations. Je vais remplacer Téfal et la pétanque par les scientifiques français (il y a la même catégorie pour les Britanniques) et le système métrique.
La première encyclopédie remonte à l'antiquité, notamment avec Naturalis Historia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalis_Historia) par Pline l'Ancien (bien qu'il y ait pu y en avoir d'autres perdues à ce jour). La 1ère encyclopédie moderne peut être attribuée à Chambers avec sa Cyclopaedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclopaedia,_or_an_Universal_Dictionary_of_Arts_an d_Sciences) en 1728. L'Encycopédie de Diderot et d'Alembert de 1750 fut plus proche du vrai encyclopédie moderne, mais pas autant que l'Encyclopædia Britannica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encyclopaedia_Britannica), publiée in 1768, qui sera republiée en 15 édition sucessives jusqu'en 1900, et qui fut la vraie première encyclopédie multi-volumes.
Pour l'organisation des 1ères coupes du monde de rugby et de football, j'avoue n'être un fan d'aucun de ces deux sports, mais d'après Wikipedia la 1ère coupe du monde de football fut organisée en Uruguay en 1930. Il n'y a pas vraiment de coupe de monde de Rugby vu le peu de pays pratiquant ce sport, mais la première compétition internationalle fut organisée entre l'Angleterre, le Pays de Galle, l'Ecosse et l'Irelande en 1883.
En ce qui concerne les innovations sociales, je suis sûre qu'il y en a, mais lesquelles ? Je suis tout ouïe. Ne vas pas me sortir les 35 heures, hein. :smile:
Et aller ça continue :wary2:
The term "Anglo-Saxon" is sometimes used to refer to peoples descended or associated in some way with the English ethnic group. The definition has varied from time to time and varies from place to place.
"Anglo-Saxon" can be used in a variety of contexts, often to identify the English-speaking world's distinctive language, culture, technology, wealth, markets, economy, and legal systems.
Germans says "Franckreich" and not "France", ignorance or stupidity? Make your choice^^
Mmm, the definition is as inaccurate as the use of the term. There is no longer a Anglo/Saxon language, culture, wealth, market, economy nor legal system and I don't think I have ever heard it used in any of these contexts. In my experience, the term Anglo/Saxon is (more often than not) used as a derogatory description for the English or those of English or partial English descent.
But, as you say, ignorance or stupidity? I think both........
Et aller ça continue :wary2:
The term "Anglo-Saxon" is sometimes used to refer to peoples descended or associated in some way with the English ethnic group. The definition has varied from time to time and varies from place to place.
"Anglo-Saxon" can be used in a variety of contexts, often to identify the English-speaking world's distinctive language, culture, technology, wealth, markets, economy, and legal systems.
Only French speakers refer to the English-speaking world as Anglo-Saxon. It is extremely common in France (I hear it everyday on TV), but simply not used by other people because it is confusing as well as historically and linguistically wrong. British people do not descend exclusively or even in majority from the Anglo-Saxons. Most of the Scots and Welsh are first and foremost of Brythonic descent. The English are more Germanic, but also because of their Danish ancestry (Jute, Viking, Norman). In any case, genetics has now proven that even the English are only about half Germanic. Altogether, it is likely that less than one quarter of the genes in Great Britain are of Anglo-Saxon origin. It is all the more wrong to refer to Americans, Canadians or Australians as Anglo-Saxons, since only a small fraction of their overall ancestry is English (Australians, who have the highest proportion of ancestry from the UK, is actually predominantly Irish and Scottish, with very little English ancestry).
La première Coupe du monde de football a été organisé en Uruguay, oui, mais c'est sous l'impulsion de Jules Rimet (alors président de la FIFA) et du journal l'équipe qu'elle naquit.
D'ailleurs la coupe en elle même s'appellait "le trophée Jules Rimet".
Si on considère Pierre de Coubertin comme l'instigateur des jeux Olympiques modernes je ne vois pas pourquoi Jules Rimet n'aurait pas le droit au même traitement de faveur pour le football...
C'est à peu près le même topo pour la Coupe du monde rugby.
Alfred Eluère et Albert Ferrasse sont les premiers à avoir proposés l'idée mais se sont heurtés aux refus des Anglo-saxons pendant presque 50 ans, et c'est grâce à la détermination de Ferrasse qu'elle fut organisée amenant le rugby vers le professionnalisme, chose que ne voulait pas l'IRB.
Pour l'encyclopédie je te l'accorde, ce n'était qu'une esquisse, dommage^^
Pour les innovations sociales je pensais plus aux "congés payés" et à la "couverture maladie universelle" apparus durant la révolution Française de 1936. Peut-être que d'autres pays l'ont inventé avant mais je n'ai pas trouvé de sources mentionnant le contraire.
Concernant les 35 heures je pense en effet que c'est une bonne chose...
Au vu de la tournure de ta phrase j'en conclus que tu es très sceptique sur cette idée mais pour moi cela montre que tu n'es pas de ma génération (j'ai 30 ans) et que par conséquent tu n'as pas dû connaître la gallère du chômage.
Je suis sorti du système scolaire à 21 ans avec un BTS, motivé mais manque de bol le secteur du bâtiment était en roue libre et n'embauchait pas. Résultat plus d'un an de chômage...
Peut-être que c'est utopique mais se dire que l'on pourrait limiter le temps de travail de chacun pour permettre à d'autre de pouvoir bosser c'est plutôt altruiste je trouve, mais très peu d'entreprises l'appliquent.
Et je suis actuellement aux 35 heures (vrai 35 heures pas un truc bidon qu'on peut voir dans d'autres bureaux d'études), et je gagne suffisemment ma vie.
Le deuxième gros point positif des 35 heures c'est que depuis que ça a été mis en place notre taux de natalité augmente chaque années et est le plus fort d'Europe (il me semble).
Pourquoi? Parce que les familles ont plus de temps pour faire et élever des enfants, c'est aussi bête que ça.
Je suis d'accord pour dire que ce système ne peut pas marcher à tous les échellons de notre société, un cadre supérieur ne pourra jamais s'y soumettre, mais pour le petit ouvrier, l'infirmière ou pour l'humble employé de bureau que je suis ça nous suffit amplement.
La majorité des gens travaillent pour gagner leurs vies, pas pour se faire un maximum de pognon.
Et franchement je ne comprends pas votre réactions quand à l'utilisation de l'expression "Anglo-saxon"...:sad-2:
On l'utilise dans différents contextes et tous ceux qui ont un minimum de connaissance historique savent que c'est un dérivé d'un ancien therme désignant un ancienne tribut, arrêtez de nous balancer vos cours d'histoires parce que là vous nous prenez vraiment pour des cons...
Ca a des sens différents suivant le contexte dans lequel on l'utilise, ça n'existe pas ce genre de cas dans les autres pays?
Et si vous pensez que cela vous donne le droit de nous traiter d'ignorants ou dire que l'on est stupide pour ce genre de chose et bien allez-y, ce n'est plus moi qui vais vous retenir, salut :indifferent:
Only French speakers refer to the English-speaking world as Anglo-SaxonNot only French speakers...
""All I can say about my own experience is that in the anglo-saxon working culture...""...this sentence have been written on this forum by "Cimmerianbloke", a german...
Not only French speakers...
""All I can say about my own experience is that in the anglo-saxon working culture...""...this sentence have been written on this forum by "Cimmerianbloke", a german...
Cimmerianbloke is a French-speaking Belgian living in Germany.
Il y a comme une erreur !
Ce thread est bourr de clichs et de lieux communs.
Les Franais ne sont pas de culture "latine" !
La France est compose de beaucoup de rgions qui ont chacune leurs spcificits.
La France ne peut pas tre compare systmatiquement avec l'Italie, l'Espagne ou le Portugal.
La France partage des traits culturels vidents avec la Belgique ou l'Allemagne.
Ces clichs sont insupportables.
It's a mistake. The French are not "southern europeans" but western europeans. And also not "latin". C'est un cliché, un "lieu commun", une "idée reçue" comme on dit en français.
It's a mistake. The French are not "southern europeans" but western europeans. And also not "latin". C'est un clich�, un "lieu commun", une "id�e re�ue" comme on dit en fran�ais.
France is is a stange that starts from ancient times to modern,
as most of European cultures is a mix (Gascon, Gaulish, Germans Normands and Northern Celts etc)
the unification started after Carlomagnos when he gave his son a teritory like modern France but took heart and bones at France revolution and Napoleon's wars. after that France become one nation.
Surely France as Spain and Portugal is not Latin but has enough Latin and belongs to Latin family of languages.
albanopolis
07-05-13, 16:22
My opinion is that there are 4 main cultures in Europe.
1)Romance speaking countries cultures. Italy and France have very similar cultures. World class art, architecture,culinary sciences and hard sciences. France has some Germanic elements. Both cultures are hard to penetrate. The only cultures to my point of view, where English speaking culture has had minimal penetration. Both cultures are not imitating English speakers.
2)Germanic culture. Discipline and hard work as the spine of this culture. Hard culture to replicate. Without a doubt successful culture but has not many admirers, since many view the Germanic culture as military democracy.
3) English culture is a successful culture with many Germanic and romance elements. The best value of this culture is its openness. The most successful culture in history. Tremendous impact in every country's culture.
4)Every one else culture. This countries are trying hard to copy English speaking culture, with few local flavors.
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