View Full Version : 'Mohamed' most common given name in Brussels over the last 3 decades
I stumbled across the list (top 100) of most common given name in Belgium (http://www.statbel.fgov.be/figures/d22c_fr.asp) between 1900 and this year. The statistics are broken down by gender and region. Heavy immigration from Morocco and other Muslim countries has left its traces... Mohamed has been the most common male given name in the Brussels Region since the 1980's. If we merge the stats for "Mohamed" and "Mohammed" (just a spelling difference), it was already the most common in the 1960's and 70's, and 5th most common in the 1950's !
Let's note that other Muslim names top the 2000's list in Brussels, such as Ayoub (3rd), Bilal (5th), Mehdi (6th), Yassine (9th) or Hamza (11th) for boys, and Imane (3rd), Rania (4th), Yasmine (6th) or Yousra (7th) for girls.
Belgium-wide, Thomas has been the most common male given name since the 1990's, following Kevin in the 1980's, David in the 1970's and Patrick in the 1960's. Before that it had been "Jean" since the 1930's.
For female given names, Laura has been the most popular since the 1990's, following Julie (80's), Nathalie (70's), Martine (60's). Before that it had always been "Maria" since the early 1900's ("Marie" in Wallonia).
The early 2000's have seen the rise of previously unusual names such as Manon, Léa, Océane or Margaux for girls in Wallonia. Boys names remain more standard, except for Lucas (5th most common in the early 2000's) or Dylan (22th).
Figures for the whole population in 2002 (http://www.statbel.fgov.be/figures/d22b_fr.asp) show that no less than 3% of the people (6% of women) in Belgium are named "Maria" or "Marie".
This table shows the 100 most common family names in Belgium by region (http://www.statbel.fgov.be/figures/d21a_fr.asp)
That is an interesting statistic. The demographics of Belgium are evidently changing and have already shifted to a more diverse population. Although problematic, there are distinct advatages to living a society that is diverse over a more homogenous one.
Goodness, in Belguim? :souka: Anyways, I read somewhere that Mohamed is one of the most common religious names. But I'm not altogether certian. :?
Just for reference, there are about 85,000 people of Moroccan descent in Brussels, i.e. 9% of the population.
can't say that I'm surprised...it's all well and good to try to keep ur roots but having everyone in your area with your same name would be quite confusing...
where is the integration now:?:? :?
Just think of all the kids that will be called Moe by their friends!
Just think of all the kids that will be called Moe by their friends!
This isn't the US. People don't give more local sounding nicknames in Belgium (or in general in Europe).
I agree with Duo. Where is the integration here ? Since Mohamed has been the most common boy name in Brussels for over 50 years, most of the babies born in the last few years are 2nd or more likely 3rd generation (if not 4th) of immigrants, but they still keep 100% Arabic names. In the US, I have noticed that even 2nd generation immigrants have English-sounding given names - sometimes keeping a name from their ancestor's country in the middle name. If they don't, as Sabro said, their name will be Anglicised by their friends.
In Europe, Muslim immigrants do not adopt local names, they do not adopt local clothes and customs, and often don't even speak well the country's language after 2 or 3 generations. Think how much of an American is an Italian or Jewish immigrant who doesn't celebrate the 4th of July or Thanksgiving... I guess that they would not be considered well integrated if they never did, or refused to participate in such celebrations when invited by friends, under the pretext that it doesn't belong to their culture. Well it's exactly what is happening with European Muslims, except that they even want laws to change to accommodate their culture and religion !
No we don't slaughter sheep at home in Belgium. That is illegal outside slaughter houses. Why would Muslims be exempt ? The Jews, who have a similar custom, never asked for exceptions, although there is a huge Jewish community in Antwerp.
The Jews, Hindus, Buddhists or whatever don't complain about not being able to wear their traditional clothes in public institutions in France. Muslims do, they organise nation-wide demonstrations and even threaten the government if they don't comply to their demand. What's that for a mentality toward your host country ?
Maciamo-
I think you are making presumptions about the US that don't ring true. At least listen to a third generation Japanese American named Sabro. I have no desire to anglicize my name. Learn it, pronounce it, and I will answer to it. As far as integrating and assimilating-- that is as far as I am willing to go. Leave my name and my diet out of it. And after three generations on my mother's side and eight on my father's, the US is not my host country, it is MY country-- and the state has no right to dictate what my name is, what I should wear, eat, or what customs I will follow.
English "sounding" given names are probably the rarity, unless you include those with inventive spellings like Mychael, Zhon, Jan-et. (Sometimes it seems that we name our girls after strippers and porn stars- Amber, Diasy, Jade, Star, Goldie.) TV character and entertainer names (Brittney, Dylan, Brad) as well as the more common Bible Jewish names are still popular (John, Rachael, Michael, Joseph, David). In California, you are more likely to have Juan, Maria, and Jose in your class than John, Mary and Joey. And if you are a teacher, you will likely run across a Laquiesha, Yang, Nguyen or Mohammad. Here there isn't a majority ethnic population, Europeans simply are the largest group in the plurality.
I find it difficult to understand why European countries would have laws governing how people dress and what customs they follow. It seems like a bit of "over the top" state control. Our clothes and customs have a wide range and variety. What you see in the inner city is different than the suburbs. Little Saigon is different than Little Tokyo, South Central and East LA look like different countries. You can wear whatever traditional clothing that you want to. Our school dress codes will make exceptions for clothing worn for religious reasons... although Sikh daggers are problematic. With rare exception, I don't see why the state should care what a person wears.
In California, you can slaughter sheep at home. There are standards that need to be met which are rather strict, especially if the meat is to be sold. I remember the Portillo family used to raise live stock and chickens in their yard next door to us in East LA. Chickens, pigs, goats, and young cattle. They would slaughter the animals and process the meat in the back yard with giant pit barbeques, pots, and grills.
Maciamo-
I think you are making presumptions about the US that don't ring true. At least listen to a third generation Japanese American named Sabro. I have no desire to anglicize my name. Learn it, pronounce it, and I will answer to it. As far as integrating and assimilating-- that is as far as I am willing to go. Leave my name and my diet out of it. And after three generations on my mother's side and eight on my father's, the US is not my host country, it is MY country-- and the state has no right to dictate what my name is, what I should wear, eat, or what customs I will follow.
English "sounding" given names are probably the rarity, unless you include those with inventive spellings like Mychael, Zhon, Jan-et. (Sometimes it seems that we name our girls after strippers and porn stars- Amber, Diasy, Jade, Star, Goldie.) TV character and entertainer names (Brittney, Dylan, Brad) as well as the more common Bible Jewish names are still popular (John, Rachael, Michael, Joseph, David). In California, you are more likely to have Juan, Maria, and Jose in your class than John, Mary and Joey. And if you are a teacher, you will likely run across a Laquiesha, Yang, Nguyen or Mohammad. Here there isn't a majority ethnic population, Europeans simply are the largest group in the plurality.
I find it difficult to understand why European countries would have laws governing how people dress and what customs they follow. It seems like a bit of "over the top" state control. Our clothes and customs have a wide range and variety. What you see in the inner city is different than the suburbs. Little Saigon is different than Little Tokyo, South Central and East LA look like different countries. You can wear whatever traditional clothing that you want to. Our school dress codes will make exceptions for clothing worn for religious reasons... although Sikh daggers are problematic. With rare exception, I don't see why the state should care what a person wears.
In California, you can slaughter sheep at home. There are standards that need to be met which are rather strict, especially if the meat is to be sold. I remember the Portillo family used to raise live stock and chickens in their yard next door to us in East LA. Chickens, pigs, goats, and young cattle. They would slaughter the animals and process the meat in the back yard with giant pit barbeques, pots, and grills.
there is a difference,,, i know many americans with asian origins with anglo-saxon names...like jerry woo or john tang or watever... the thing is that why are there so many mohameds in brussels alone, i mean some could at least try to have sm sort of name that would be locally adaptable as well.
Do Belgians have trouble saying it or keeping them all separate in their minds? I don't understand what the problem is. Is it any different than having millions of men named James or John (Which are Jewish, not Anglo Saxon)?
... and if I understand what you guys are saying-- some of these men are third generation Belgians. This isn't their "host" country anymore, it is their "home" country. Their name is Muhammed- and they are Belgian.
Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.
Nicknames are always common. The ones that I don't get are the ones that are actually as long or longer than what they are replacing or contain consonants that the original lacks- John/Jack Maggie/Margret Bobby/Robert...
Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.
Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.
Oh I know what you mean, I know several Indian students, but they do not have those long difficult names. Their names are more like Sheetal and Ajurn. Which are very easy. However, I still think people should try to make the effort to learn people's name from another country. :-)
Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.
Only if their siblings are called Curly and Larry:D
(I'm going to have a fatwa against me for saying that. It's sabros fault, get him first, not me)
Do Belgians have trouble saying it or keeping them all separate in their minds? I don't understand what the problem is. Is it any different than having millions of men named James or John (Which are Jewish, not Anglo Saxon)?
James or John are English names. Jacques or Jean are French. Giacomo and Giovanni are Italian. I don't know the Jewish version, but it certainly isn't James and John...
... and if I understand what you guys are saying-- some of these men are third generation Belgians. This isn't their "host" country anymore, it is their "home" country. Their name is Muhammed- and they are Belgian.
They are all 2nd, 3rd or 4th generation of Arabs (mostly Moroccans) born in Belgium, but only 5% of all people of Moroccan descent in Belgium have chosen to taken on Belgian nationality, despite being eligible after 5 years of (legal or illegal) residency. This is another sign of them not willing to integrate into Belgian society. How would American consider 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants would are automatically granted American nationality for being born in the US, yet nevertheless refuse the US nationality ? This is what is happening with 95% of Moroccans... Do you find this normal ?
Most indians I know have shortened their names down to easy to say nicknames and, in some cases, use an anglified name for example, Harjit to Harry, Abdulla to Abby (one of my school friends did this), Sukjivan to Suki. Even within their own ethnic groups they will shorten names down, not all the time, but it does happen.
Exactly ! So do the Italian immigrants in Belgium. Why is it that Arabic immigrants refuse to do that, even after 4 generations in the country ?
Maybe Belgium should pass a law encouraging all Muhamads to shorten to Moe. Give them a break on taxes or a toaster or something.
Nicknames aren't common in Dutch-speaking and especially French-speaking culture. At best they would shorten a given name (e.g. Sebastian => Seb; Caroline => Caro), but not modify it like English speakers do (e.g. William => Bill; Henry => Harry; Cassandra => Cassie...).
So I cannot see how the Belgian government would encourage the use of nicknames for Muslims or anybody else... It just isn't part of the local culture.
Perhaps they should outlaw religion to make you happy- as there already seems to be a national dress code. Allowing the state to enforce assimilation and to adapt into the culture of the mainstream would certainly diminish conflict and discomfort. Before I was born schools made kids from different culture adopt American sounding names and punished them for speaking their native languages.
I don't think that these communties here are comparable to those in the US. They are very different from each other and so are ethnic relations here. There is consistent and persistent effort by these communities to resist assimilation and integration. The name factor is just another that adds up to the pile. I find it in no way normal that 3rd generation children have such different names from the local culture they reside in. Sure it can be acceptable, but the magnitude of this factor is brough to the light by the sheer amount of the same name out there... i mean it just doesnt make sense to me... it's just another stance to imply that look we are not one of u...well then i must ask why are u living here if you want to be so distant from me?
I'm third generation and my name is Sabro. How "Anglo sounding" is that? Does this lack of "assimilation and integration" make me a bad American?
James or John are English names. Jacques or Jean are French. Giacomo and Giovanni are Italian. I don't know the Jewish version, but it certainly isn't James and John...
James: From Greek Iakobos became Latin Jacobus (whence French Jacques) later also Jacomus whence Old French (and then English) James. In Gaelic the name is Seusmus (whence Hamish)
John:From Latin Johannes. ultimately from Hebrew for "God is Gracious". Common Biblical name, but especially popular as that of John the Baptist
I have a book of names. Sabro was mistaken for James, but not for John, which is Jewish in origin
I'm third generation and my name is Sabro. How "Anglo sounding" is that? Does this lack of "assimilation and integration" make me a bad American?
That's perfectly fine...but if SABRO is not the most popluar name in the recent years in the US now is it ;)
James: From Greek Iakobos became Latin Jacobus (whence French Jacques) later also Jacomus whence Old French (and then English) James. In Gaelic the name is Seusmus (whence Hamish)
John:From Latin Johannes. ultimately from Hebrew for "God is Gracious". Common Biblical name, but especially popular as that of John the Baptist
I have a book of names. Sabro was mistaken for James, but not for John, which is Jewish in origin
Sabro didn't say "of Jewish origin" but Jewish, but, after checking it the Jewish equivalent is "Yôḥānān" not "John" (and it doesn't sound more similar than it is spelt). My point was that the spelling and pronunciation of names which have been present in a culture for a long time (no matter their origin) change to adapt to the sonority of a particular linguistic group.
This thread is about integration into a new culture (and linguistic group). I expect an English-speaker called "John" to change their name to "Jean" if they live in a French-speaking area, Juan if they live in Spain or Giovanni if they live in Italy. I do it for myself naturally, and I actually find it weird to use the French pronuciation of my name in English or the English pronuciation in French. So you can understand how weird I find it for parents from immigrant families to all give their children names of their ancestors' country without any attempt to find names that will make life easier for them in the host country where they are born and will almost surely live all their life. A few months ago I read and heard on TV that many Arabs in France complained about not being able to find a job just because of their Arabic names. To that, some better integrated Arabs replied that they changed their name to a French name and never had any problem, despite clearly looking Arabic.
The real problem with Arabs in Belgium and France is that they almost do not try at all to adapt to their host country and on the contrary try to recreate their country and culture of origin in Belgium and France. They refuse to use European names, they refuse to wear European clothes, they refuse to speak properly the language of the country where they live, they ask the government for exceptions to be made just for them, they cause lots of troubles (e.g. insulting or assaulting people in the street, vandalism...), very few finish highsschool or attend the free universities, and then they call the French or Belgians racist for not given them jobs when nobosy could get such jobs with their qualifications. Those who really try to integrate, and study like any regular European do manage to get a good job and escape poverty and problems. But that's only a tiny percentage. Why ?
That's perfectly fine...but if SABRO is not the most popluar name in the recent years in the US now is it ;)
It is not. But I am not changing it just to integrate or assimilate.
I don't read French, but isn't Muhamad the 28th most common name?
I'm third generation and my name is Sabro. How "Anglo sounding" is that? Does this lack of "assimilation and integration" make me a bad American?
That's ok if you behave like a regular American. However, if you insist on speaking with a Japanese accent eventhough you were born in the US, refuse the US nationality you were granted at birth because you want to remain solely Japanese, wear kimono everyday despite people staring at you, ask the US government for an exception to be made for Shintoist to give them the right to use marijuana legally because it has been used for centuries in Shinto ceremonies, then start burning cars because the US government doesn't want to recognise the holiness of the Japanese emperor (just a example), then having a 100% Japanese name will only add to the above-mentioned lack of integration.
All the above is the way Moroccan immigrants behave in Belgium or France, without exageration. Just substitute "Japanese" for "Arabic", "Shintoist" for "Muslim", "marijuana" for "ritual sacrifice of sheep", and "Japanese emperor" for "Allah" (which cannot be made fun of, even in cartoons), and you have a typical example of what I and an increasingly big majority of French, Belgian and Dutch people are complaining about (as well as other Europeans).
I don't read French, but isn't Muhamad the 28th most common name?
I don't want to sound like a primary school teacher, but which column did you check ? Belgium, Brussels, Flanders or Wallonia ? And which decade's data did you check ? (all the decades of the 20th century are listed, for females first, then males).
It sounds like you are going to have to adapt.
I don't think I behave like a regular anything. Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese. In the 1940's when my mother was growing up, they weren't allowed to speak Japanese in schools, and those with Japanese names were given "American sounding" names. Although I did take a few Japanese classes, I never learned the language. The Japanese don't wear kimonos all that much anymore, and neither do I. I wear a tie at work, but I would prefer a Hawaiin shirt. There are only about a million Japanese Americans and smoking marijuana or burning cars would garner little notice.
The largest ethnic group in Southern California are Mexican. You can speak Spanish your entire life in the US. Read your newspaper and watch the most popular TV station in Los Angeles and listen to all your radio program in Spanish. They keep their culture, food, dress and religion. I went to school and we celebrated September 16th, Mexican Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo and November 1st, All Saint's day. I used to know the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish. I wouldn't be alarmed at all.
I don't want to sound like a primary school teacher, but which column did you check ? Belgium, Brussels, Flanders or Wallonia ? And which decade's data did you check ? (all the decades of the 20th century are listed, for females first, then males). I tried to pick through the French and I found the Males for apre 1-1-2000 decade or for the previous period. I looked in the first column. I know you combined the numbers of the various spellings of Mohammed, but I didn't think the numbers added up to Thomas, Kevin or Maxime. I didn't do the math though.
Isn't Mohamed, Muhammed.... the most common name on the planet?
I know the most common surname is Patel.
I tried to pick through the French and I found the Males for apre 1-1-2000 decade or for the previous period. I looked in the first column. I know you combined the numbers of the various spellings of Mohammed, but I didn't think the numbers added up to Thomas, Kevin or Maxime. I didn't do the math though.
In my original post and thread title, I did say that Mohamed (with 1 "m") was the most common male given name in Brussels (one of the 3 states in Belgium, and the capital). Muhammad is alternative spelling in Roman characters, but Moroccans prefer "Mohamed" or "Mohammed". In Arabic script, I believe they are all the same.
It sounds like you are going to have to adapt.
I don't think I behave like a regular anything. Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese. In the 1940's when my mother was growing up, they weren't allowed to speak Japanese in schools, and those with Japanese names were given "American sounding" names. Although I did take a few Japanese classes, I never learned the language. The Japanese don't wear kimonos all that much anymore, and neither do I. I wear a tie at work, but I would prefer a Hawaiin shirt. There are only about a million Japanese Americans and smoking marijuana or burning cars would garner little notice.
The largest ethnic group in Southern California are Mexican. You can speak Spanish your entire life in the US. Read your newspaper and watch the most popular TV station in Los Angeles and listen to all your radio program in Spanish. They keep their culture, food, dress and religion. I went to school and we celebrated September 16th, Mexican Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo and November 1st, All Saint's day. I used to know the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish. I wouldn't be alarmed at all.
I hope you understood that my example about Japanese-Americans was neither directed at you, nor something I thought happened at all in the US. As for the Japanese not wearing much kimono, it depends on the age and gender (some older women wear it almost everyday), but I only used that as a comparison for Muslim women wearing a headscarf or even worse, a burqa (covering the face completely).
I have noticed (and other members have confirmed it) that Turkish women in Turkey wear much less the headscarf than Turkish immigrants in Europe. I haven't been to Morocco, but I have been told by several people who have that Moroccans in Belgium also wear more the headscarf than in Morocco. I believe this is justly to display their difference within European society.
So going back to my hypothetical example about Japanese immigrants to the US, if they wanted to behave like the Moroccans in Belgium, they would have to wear kimono more than Japanese people in Japan. In that case, I believe that mainstream Americans might find it strange. If they did all the things I mentioned, other Americans would look at them suspiciously and criticise them for not integrating into American society, trying to recreate Japan outside Japan and conflict with American value on purpose, for the sake of conflict. I don't think this ever happened with Japanese, or any other immigrants to the USA. Most immigrants to Europe are fine. It is almost only the Muslim, and especially the Moroccans that cause serious problems.
You know in the US they have places called little Tokyo, little Shanghai, little Taipei, little Seoul, little Saigoncetc and people within the area still speak their languages and live among themselves keeping their own customs. Some choose to mix with whites but others just hang around with their own kinds.
I think immigrants still celebrate their festivals too. For example, I know that Chinese New Year is still celebrated in Australia and in the US among Chinese communities.
It is true that Asians donft really wear much of their traditional clothes, Asians tend to like European fashions more in this contemporary era. Many Asians are nuts about LV, Prada, Channel, Gucci...etc.
With names I find that Korean and Chinese tend to have adopted English plus keeping their Chinese or Korean names and surnames translated into roman letters. For example, Vivian CHOW Wai Man, Jimmy LIN Zhi Ying, (cap locks are the surnames.) So in short it is just Vivian Chow, Jimmy Lin cetc.
My husband dad comes from Italy he changed his Italian name to a French version of the name. Let me explain what I mean, for example the name Anthony which is English, Antoine is the French version of it and Antonio is the Italian version of it. His name was not Antonio of course, just an example.
With my husbandfs given name his grandmother wanted to name him this Italian name but he got the French version of it instead, because unlike his grandmother who likes to cling on to her roots his father has chosen to be assimilated into the French society. I think many Europeans tend to assimilate well into the host societies more than people who come from different cultural backgrounds.
I know the Vietnamese who live in France, after 5 generations still speak and keep their customs and believe. I wonder whatfs different about them and the Arabs that caused Europeans to dislike Arabs so much, do Arab perhaps provoke Europeans more openly?:?
Maciamo, when you were in Japan did you attempt to assimilate? Did you adopt a Japanese sounding name? When you moved back to Belgium did your wife take a French sounding name and abandon all Japanese customs? Do you think all people should try their hardest to blend into their host country or is any diversity acceptable, allowable or desireable?
You know in the US they have places called little Tokyo, little Shanghai, little Taipei, little Seoul, little Saigoncetc and people within the area still speak their languages and live among themselves keeping their own customs. Some choose to mix with whites but others just hang around with their own kinds.
True, but this is a very tiny part of the total population, and maybe not even mainly made of people born and raised in the US, but temporary migrants who later go back to their country. In France, 10% of the population is now Muslim , and almost all of them are ethnic Arabs. It's almost as much as the percentage of Blacks in the US population, except that it took 500 years to reach that percentage and only 50 years in France.
I think immigrants still celebrate their festivals too. For example, I know that Chinese New Year is still celebrated in Australia and in the US among Chinese communities.
I have no problem with immigrants celebrating their festivals and traditions, as long as they are not demanding (not just "asking") from the government that exceptions be made for them when it comes to do illegal stuff during the performance of those traditions. If the government says "no conspicuous religious symbols in public institutions for everybody of every religion", then respect the law. That's just that simple !
With names I find that Korean and Chinese tend to have adopted English plus keeping their Chinese or Korean names and surnames translated into roman letters. For example, Vivian CHOW Wai Man, Jimmy LIN Zhi Ying, (cap locks are the surnames.) So in short it is just Vivian Chow, Jimmy Lin cetc.
Yes, I noticed that the Chinese (more than any other Asians) do that, even in China, when doing business with Westerners, so that it is easier for them to remember or pronounce their name. That's a pretty good idea.
My husband dad comes from Italy he changed his Italian name to a French version of the name. Let me explain what I mean, for example the name Anthony which is English, Antoine is the French version of it and Antonio is the Italian version of it. His name was not Antonio of course, just an example.
With my husbandfs given name his grandmother wanted to name him this Italian name but he got the French version of it instead, because unlike his grandmother who likes to cling on to her roots his father has chosen to be assimilated into the French society.
I never considered my given name as a fixed in spelling or pronunciation. When I was in Italy, I used only the Italian spelling and pronuciation, never the one written on my birth certificate. Same in Spain, or in whatever else Europea country, whenever a translation was available.
I know the Vietnamese who live in France, after 5 generations still speak and keep their customs and believe. I wonder whatfs different about them and the Arabs that caused Europeans to dislike Arabs so much, do Arab perhaps provoke Europeans more openly?:?
The difference is that they don't break the law while keeping their customs and traditions. They don't provoke people (verbal abuse, vandalism, violence...), they don't talk with a strong accent on purpose, they don't attack the values of their host countries, etc. like Muslims do. A few months ago, the Muslim communities across Europe menaced European governments that if they didn't scrap freedom of speech (about Islam) they would destroy Europe. That's not something people like to hear, especially after all those terrorist attacks and burned cars in the previous months.
There are lots of East Asians in Europe too, but we never hear from them. Very discreet, pretty well-integrated (Asian restaurants are more popular and numerous than ever).
This article of the Economist (http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=7086222) mentions that there are 9x more people of Arabic descent in French jails than people of French descent. In Belgium, I heard that 30 or 40% of all people in jail are from Moroccan descent, in spite that they only make up aout 5% of the total population. Chinese ? Indians ? Eastern Europeans ? Latin Americans ? Black Africans ? All of them combined don't make a tenth of all the troubles caused only by the Maghrebans.
Maciamo, when you were in Japan did you attempt to assimilate? Did you adopt a Japanese sounding name?
Yes, I did. I got my name in kanji within a month of arriving (including a hanko). Legally I was not allowed to change my name (Japan has tough laws in this regard), but it sounds easy enough for Japanese to pronounce almost perfectly.
I certainly did learn as much as I could about Japanese culture and society - with as result all the cultural guide of Japan Reference (http://www.wa-pedia.com/culture/), as well as the language, society and travel sections (I am a bit disappointed that an veteran member like you shouldn't know that). I never looked for food or clothes from my country, but readily embraced Japanese food and clothing. I started learning the language as soon as I knew I was going to move to Japan (a few weeks before), and spent my first 5 months taking intensive Japanese lessons. Yet I was NOT an immigrant, as I only moved to Japan because of my girlfriend (who became my wife), and was ready to stay there for a while for the experience. I never ever had in mind to spend the rest of my life in Japan or give up my nationality.
If I did all this as a foreign resident (NOT immigrant), you can imagine that I naturally expect no less from immigrants (not just foreign residents) to my country...
When you moved back to Belgium did your wife take a French sounding name and abandon all Japanese customs?
She has only been here for a few months and started to learn about the local culture. There is no need to abandon one's original culture completely though, as long as it doesn't seriously conflict with the host society (fairly obvious, isn't it ?).
Do you think all people should try their hardest to blend into their host country or is any diversity acceptable, allowable or desireable?
They should try their best to blend into their host country, if that is what is expected of them like in France or in the Benelux. I guess it is always ok to do that. In some countries (UK, USA...), people don't mind so much the coexistence of various cultures, but always as long as they don't cause troubles and respect the law and the country's fundamental values. In either case Europe's Arabs are not well integrated as they do cause troubles, do not respect the law (hence the extremely high pecentage of Arabs in French and Belgian jails) and do not respect the country's fundamental values (e.g. freedom of speech, even about Mohammed, women's rights...).
I think that sabro has a hard time understanding our references because he does not experience the same context as we do. Race relations in the US are much more different from here. AND i don't agree to people that say that ethnicities live well integrated amongst each other in the US. That's just an illusion. However, that illusion combined with no cultural barrier in the US, by that i mean there is no cultural wall that these ethnicities can bounce against because the US is an immigrant nation, make race relations in the US seem more transparent and flexible. I think it's hard for americans to understand the European experience. Imagine this sabro, here in brussels all western females age 15-30 are victim of taunts and street hassling from mostly the marrocan/arab male youth. To me this is a big sign of disrespect and failure to integrate......adding the fact of the name is just another factor that piles up on the strenous race relations here.
I think that sabro has a hard time understanding our references because he does not experience the same context as we do. Race relations in the US are much more different from here. AND i don't agree to people that say that ethnicities live well integrated amongst each other in the US. That's just an illusion. However, that illusion combined with no cultural barrier in the US, by that i mean there is no cultural wall that these ethnicities can bounce against because the US is an immigrant nation, make race relations in the US seem more transparent and flexible. I think it's hard for americans to understand the European experience. Imagine this sabro, here in brussels all western females age 15-30 are victim of taunts and street hassling from mostly the marrocan/arab male youth. To me this is a big sign of disrespect and failure to integrate......adding the fact of the name is just another factor that piles up on the strenous race relations here. You are right in the first sentence: I have never been to Europe, nor do I have much of an understanding of race relations in Europe at all. I never meant to give the impression that there are no problems with integration or assimilation in the United States... I was only suggesting that the whole melting pot idea is one paradigm and possibly not the only one or the best one. Belgium is changing. Decisions that you make collectively will shape the culture and society that your children will live in. If you want to avoid the turmoil that the United States went through during the last century, avoid some of the decision we made early on.
The United States is in a flux caused by the growth of our "hispanic" population through immigration, both legal and illegal. Some of the same old complaints and problems are resurfacing in the immigration debate.
The taunts and hassling are unexcusable. Crime is crime. Rudeness is rudeness... these things know no cultural boundaries and laws should be enforced and respected. Whenever there is change, there is conflict, there is stress-- there are adjustments to be made and some cherished things will be lost in the process. It isn't easy and it is constant.
Check out the movie Crash... it has a great deal to say on the state of racism and race relations in California. I saw it on DVD for the first time last night.
I've seen it as welll...quite good :)
The largest ethnic group in Southern California are Mexican. You can speak Spanish your entire life in the US. Read your newspaper and watch the most popular TV station in Los Angeles and listen to all your radio program in Spanish. They keep their culture, food, dress and religion. I went to school and we celebrated September 16th, Mexican Independence Day, Cinco de Mayo and November 1st, All Saint's day. I used to know the Pledge of Allegiance in Spanish. I wouldn't be alarmed at all.
That's terrible. Any group of people who migrate to other country must try their best to adapt themselves to the culture and way of life of the host country not the other way. Just for showing a little bit of gratitude.
Greetings.
Exactly ! So do the Italian immigrants in Belgium. Why is it that Arabic immigrants refuse to do that, even after 4 generations in the country ?
Its the same here also. They do not see they have to merge with the local culture yet if it was reversed, even just for a holiday for example we would be expected to adopt their culture. Women for example would be expected to cover their face in some Muslim countries.
Its a worrying trend i feel.
Aristander
28-09-10, 06:16
That's terrible. Any group of people who migrate to other country must try their best to adapt themselves to the culture and way of life of the host country not the other way. Just for showing a little bit of gratitude.
Greetings.
I agree with you 100%! My wife and daughter are both teachers. My daughter specializes in teaching children where English is their second language. She has told me that she will spend all day teaching children to speak, read and write English and have their parents who speak English pick them up after school and immediately start conversing with them in Spanish. She says that the immigrants from Mexico almost universally do not try and adapt to the culture that they live in they only learn enough English to get by at the supermarket and a lot of these parents are second generation American citizens.
This is not seen from other cultural groups that immigrate to America, the Asians who immigrate here seem to more fully embrace the American culture and adapt to it. 35 years ago we had a big influx of Vietnamese and Cambodian immigrants to the area of the US I live in. We also have a number of Hindus who live in the area. After one generation the children of these immigrants have fully integrated into the local culture and are valued members of the community and leaders at the schools they attend.
This isn't to say that all of the immigrants from Mexico don't try to fit in some do but American "equality laws" have made it way too easy for them not fit in. They can be entertained in Spanish (multiple radio and TV channels in Spanish) be taught school in Spanish, vote in Spanish and transact any sort of business in Spanish, even take their citizenship exam in Spanish (this strange since one of the requirements for citizenship is knowledge of spoken and written English.) So why should they try and learn to adapt themselves?
I grew up in South Texas and have been exposed to the Mexican culture and Spanish language my whole life, I took the trouble to learn Spanish when I did not have to. If I moved to a country in Europe or Asia I would try my best to master the local language and customs.
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