View Full Version : R1b in Europe origins mostly from Phrygians and Galatians?
how yes no 2
19-12-10, 18:21
Celts are usually thought to have reached Asia minor during their maximal expansion in 3rd century BC
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Celts_in_Europe.png/300px-Celts_in_Europe.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts
We can even see that spread of Celts (alternative name of Celts is Galli/Galatea) corresponds to Galatia region in Asia minor
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png
But, how likely is that a tribe would cross to another continent and go deeper in land from sea coast separating itself from the base and escape route? I would say not really likely. logical question is could it have been other way around? could it be that Celts origin from Galatia area of Asia minor?
in fact, Strabo who writes about Galatians in his Geography tells us the following in notes for book I chapter 3 regarding his mention of Kelts
138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia
We do associate Celts with spread of R1b in Europe. Belaresque in his work claims that European R1b in fact came to Europe from Asia minor...
The indication for this is hotspot of variance of the European R1b in west part of Asia minor
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjour nal.pbio.1000285.g001&representation=PNG_M
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285
in fact, by zooming on variance figure
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/showImageLarge.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pbio.1000285.g001
one can see that this hotspot correlates fairly well with maximum spread of Phrygian kingdom
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Turkey_ancient_region_map_phrygia.gif/653px-Turkey_ancient_region_map_phrygia.gif
In Antiquity, the Phrygian cap had two connotations: for the Greeks as showing a distinctive Eastern influence of non-Greek "barbarism" (in the classical sense) and among the Romans as a badge of liberty. The Phrygian cap identifies Trojans such as Paris in vase-paintings and sculpture, and it is worn by the syncretic Persian saviour god Mithras and by the Anatolian god Attis who were later adopted by Romans and Hellenic cultures. The twins Castor and Pollux wear a superficially similar round cap called the pileus.
The Phrygian cap that was also worn by King Midas to hide the donkey ears given to him as a curse by Apollo, was first referred to in Aristophanes' Ploutos (388BC) but illustrated in vase-paintings a generation earlier.[1] Greeks were already picturing the people of Midas wearing the tall peaked caps before the earliest surviving literary sources: a mid-sixth century Laconian cup depicts the capture of Silenus at a fountain house, by armed men in Eastern costume and pointed caps.[2]
In vase-paintings and other Greek art, the Phrygian cap serves to identify the Trojan hero Paris as non-Greek; Roman poets habitually use the epithet "Phrygian" to mean Trojan. The Phrygian cap can also be seen on the Trajan's Column carvings, worn by the Dacians, and on the Arch of Septimius Severus worn by the Parthians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_cap
Troyans are thus depicted by Greeks as carrying Phrygian caps which may indicate their Phrygian origin...
in Europe there are tribes claiming that they origin from Troyans, which might be in fact about Phrygian origin
one of them are Franks whose historic movement seems to correlate with the current spread of R1b U152
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/U152-Myres.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Franks_expansion.gif/299px-Franks_expansion.gif
Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
in fact, in Serbia name for Franks seems to have been Fruzi (Frug for singular), which is very alike to word for Phrygia
The mountain's name derives from the old Serbian name for the Frankish people: Fruzi (sing. Frug; adj. Fruški). The literal translation of "Fruška Gora" would be "the Frankish Mountain". It received this name due to its function as a natural border during Frankish campaigns. During the time of the Roman Empire, its name was Alma Mons ("Fertile Mount").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fruska_gora
Thus, Franks might indeed origin from Phrygians
By similarity of tribal name Frisians might as well origin from Phryigians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Frisia_716-la.svg/338px-Frisia_716-la.svg.png
this however might have been much earlier wave as it seems that their legends of origin do not mention Troyan war and as their culture shows continuity with old cultures in their area of influence
Archeologically, Frisians share a local development with other people like the Belgae in northwest continental regions, dating to the Elp culture (1800-800 BC).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisians
I would argue that zone of influence of Frisians in fact correlates with spread of clade U-106 of haplogroup R1b
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/THYYn0iOp2I/AAAAAAAACiw/GTn5liL2F68/s1600/u106.jpg
Hmm.. I am Dutch, and the name Frank means "free". A free man.
The Frisians are more related with the people of Scandinavia, than with the Dutch.
Consider the continent of Europe as a region where transport was difficult in the early ages.
Important were the shipping routes between Scandinavia, Great Britain, The Netherlands, Belgium and Northern France.
So around the North Sea lived people that were related with each other.
Vikings, Saxons, Frisians, areas like French Normandy had a viking population.
They were the European sea people.
The Franks were much more continental. Farmers.
In history we were told as a kid, that the Netherlands consists of 3 tribes.
Frisians and Saxons in the north and Franks in the south.
But yDNA has shown that history books need to be written again.. ;)
The south of The Netherlands has a massive population of Celts.
We are direct family of the Irish and the Scots.
The Franks seemed to have passed our region, and didn't leave much offspring.
That is to be investigated still.
At least the Franks invaded France, giving their name to the country.
And they were real bad ass fighters. As in the book of Gregory de Tours - Histories.
how yes no 2
20-12-10, 01:02
So around the North Sea lived people that were related with each other.
Vikings, Saxons, Frisians, areas like French Normandy had a viking population.
They were the European sea people.
The Franks were much more continental. Farmers.
In history we were told as a kid, that the Netherlands consists of 3 tribes.
Frisians and Saxons in the north and Franks in the south.
what about Batavi?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batavi_(Germanic_tribe)
Batavi are branch of Chatti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti
and considering this thread linking R1b in germanic and celtic people to Asia minor, it may be that Chatti in fact origin from Hatti or Hittites...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites
Btw. Trojans carried tribal name Teucer, which could have been later transformed to Deutcher and to Teuton
But yDNA has shown that history books need to be written again.. ;)
The south of The Netherlands has a massive population of Celts.
We are direct family of the Irish and the Scots.
that is assumption...
R1b is not necessarily = Celtic, it seems large part of it was (and is) also Germanic... it is questionable when did proto-Germanic and proto-Celtic culture separate...
but yes, R1b dominant nations are more related among themselves than with nations who are not R1b dominant (Germans are as well R1b dominant as R1b in Germany is larger than I)
how yes no 2
23-12-10, 10:32
tribes who came from Asia minor are likely to have carried some J2 and E-V13...now let us use this to check whether Frisians and Franks could have spread those two haplogroups...
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
Brittany has low J2 and no E-V13
perhaps this animation explains why:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Franks_expansion.gif/299px-Franks_expansion.gif
Franks settlement areas do roughly match elevated levels of J2 and E-V13... thus, they could indeed origin from Asia minor as their legend of origin claims...
thie origin could have been near Troy as there both J2 and E-V13 are elevated...
Frisians could indeed origin from Phrygia...as their zone of influence shows less E-V13 and more J2, which is the case for Phrygia as well...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Frisia_716-la.svg/338px-Frisia_716-la.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png
If I misunderstood the part of your post that mentions possible origins of Celts in Modern-Day Turkey, please let me know.
It appears that you bring up the possibility that the settling of Celts in Asia Minor is unlikely and that you hold that they may have in fact begun in this area and moved onto the rest of Europe from there.
We must remember that the founding of the Galatian kingdom can be fixed during the height of the La Tene movements. The growth of Celtic power that was germane particularly to those Celts of Hallsatt culture and later La Tene produced extraordinarily large bodies of well-equipped fighters who were parts of a number of movements against classical peoples. In the case of what came to be Galatia, the Greek world was in a period of turmoil during the wars of the Diadochi (Generals/Kings who each ruled a part of Alexander’s empire)
To shorten the events, after the battle of Ipsus, where Antigonus was defeated by a coalition of the rest of the Diadochi (except Ptolemy, who arrive late), Seleucus moved against his old ally Lysimachus and killed him at Coropedium. He then crossed over into Europe, where he was promptly assassinated after getting off the boat.
It was at this time of turmoil and lack of unity that massive numbers of Celts (La Tene Gauls) moved through Macedon, Greece, and Thrace. They sacked the temple of Delphi and set themselves up in a short-lived kingdom in a part of Thrace. They moved on in massive numbers into today’s Turkey and settled in what came to be the Galatian Kingdom.
A bit of a power vacuum existed in that part of Asia also, as the native Bithynians and Cappadocians were not able to put up much of a resistance. This Kingdom of Gauls in Asia existed until it was annexed by Augustus into the Roman Empire.
I tried to make this as brief as I could. The main point is that the history is very clear on this; the Galatian Kingdom was founded by large groups of Celts/Gauls who had swept down the Balkans into and through Greece and Thrace and crossed into Asia.
There is no evidence of the preexistence of Celts in that part of Asia before the period mentioned. The movement described here originated from the heart of La Tene territory in Central Europe.
how yes no 2
28-12-10, 13:21
that is the part of the story as big part of R1b that came from Asia minor I now tend to see as Germanic (Franks, Frisians...)...
historic data that you mention doesnot exclude scenario that I brought up... when we talk about path of haplogroups and primary tribes we talk tens of thousands years backwards... so you cannot just take a snapshot in history from a bit more than 2000 years and asume no related movement happened in tens of thousands years before it...
what if Celts went to Asia minor in order to liberate their ancient homeland and their cousins who were perhaps still living there?
according to the
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/?tool=pubmed
R1b1b2 (which is most common R1b in Europe) did come to Europe via Asia minor (as an indication of this look at its variance depicted in 3rd picture...it is by far largest in west part of Asia minor)...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/bin/pbio.1000285.g001.jpg
Well, we are in agreement on the Franks and Frisians being Germanic.
Your "what if" scenario is a big "what if?” We are clearly not talking about a "snapshot", but something that we know from an historical period that is well documented. Asia Minor in the time period of which we are speaking had various groups descended from the Thraco-Cimmerians like Bithynians, Cappadocians, those of Pontus, and Armenians (with an Iranized dynasty), and of course Greeks. We do have not Celts, Gauls, or any other group that carried that name existing there at that time.
The movements that I mentioned earlier were expansionist as well as the raiding type.
Whatever one may hold as to the identity of the Cimbri, we know that large groups of La Tene Gauls were attached to this group that came to be defeated by Marius.
Their (La Tene Gauls) destructive passage is attested by many sources, as is their creation of a Galatian state, the foundation of which did not have anything to do with any kinsmen living there who needed help.
To propose that Celts started out in Asia Minor, then crossed over in to a Europe that already had proto Thracians and Greeks, among others, and moved through these into Central Europe without being watered down or destroyed completely is a big push. Then we would have to assume that they were able to recover enough to settle very large portions of Europe before we even see the rise of their greatest power during the Iron Age Halstatt and La Tene periods. There have been primary and reflux movements of peoples before, but in this case it would be highly unlikely.
how yes no 2
28-12-10, 18:57
Your "what if" scenario is a big "what if?” We are clearly not talking about a "snapshot", but something that we know from an historical period that is well documented.
Core idea of forums like this is to use genetic data to obtain a hint about what was not written...
Asia Minor in the time period of which we are speaking had various groups descended from the Thraco-Cimmerians like Bithynians, Cappadocians, those of Pontus, and Armenians (with an Iranized dynasty), and of course Greeks.We do have not Celts, Gauls, or any other group that carried that name existing there at that time
Cimmerians were not among original inhabitants of Asia minor...nor they were ever influential in Asia minor......they had few military conquests deep into Asia minor...and after one of them Paphlagonia Eneti who were their next of kin and helped them, were forced to leave Asia minor and settle Thrace and Adriatic coast resulting in Veneti tribes of Adriatic coast, around Vistula and in Sarmatia...
this happened soon after the Trojan war which is around 3200 years ago
name Thraco-Cimmerians is related to archeological sites in east Europe, not in Asia minor....that is why there is Thraco in Thraco-Cimmerians... those sites are from 7th and 8th century BC, thus 2700-2800 years before present... archeological sitres cover area north of Black sea, Pannonia and have spread towards north of Russia and towards Denmark via Germany, and also in north Italy where Veneti tribes lived...and in Macedonia...
Thraco-Cimmerians did spread to Europe in times much before 4th century BC when Celts conquered part of Asia minor, but key question is who are the people who origin from them? Sarmatians? Pannonians? Cimbry? proto-IE? Celtic? Germanic?...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
I think they were I2 carriers,as the core and directions of spread from the cores can be mapped to the core and directions of spread of I2a2
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
they explain why Serb/Croats, east and west Hungarians and central Ukrainians are in same cluster whose focal point is Vinitsya area in Ukraine...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s320/Ystrclusters.png
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wynnyzja.pn g/250px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wynnyzja.pn g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast
while R1b did move from Asia minor to Europe in earlier times e.g. 4-5000 years ago
however, keep in mind that lot of R1b also stayed there, as it is not at all confined to 3rd century Celt settled areas...
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif
Whatever one may hold as to the identity of the Cimbri, we know that large groups of La Tene Gauls were attached to this group that came to be defeated by Marius.
To propose that Celts started out in Asia Minor, then crossed over in to a Europe that already had proto Thracians and Greeks, among others, and moved through these into Central Europe without being watered down or destroyed completely is a big push. Then we would have to assume that they were able to recover enough to settle very large portions of Europe before we even see the rise of their greatest power during the Iron Age Halstatt and La Tene periods. There have been primary and reflux movements of peoples before, but in this case it would be highly unlikely.
I never said how many years took for that scenario... you imagine it as year or two issue... but when trying to interpret genetic data...we talk about thousands of years long migrations... question is not whether proto-Celtic people origin from Asia minor (as R1b they carried entered Europe from Asia minor), but when did they move to Europe (e.g. 4000 years ago or 7000 years ago) and why they went back to conquer Asia minor around 2300 years ago and were some related tribes still existing there in that point of time?
This thread is a typical mistake of trying to link one tribe/ethnicity/kingdom at one point in history with modern haplogroup frequencies.
Besides it is based on the terrible R1b study by Balaresque et al. The only reason why R1b displays the greatest genetic diversity in western Anatolia is because there are no samples from Eastern Europe and the Caucasus. If R1b was the main haplogroup of the western branch of the Indo-European speakers who moved out from the Pontic steppes north of the Black Sea to settle in the more fertile and metal-rich regions of Europe, then the first forays would have taken place around modern Romania and Bulgaria. This early western branch could have become the Hittite branch by migrating from Bulgaria to Anatolia. Indo-European R1b1b2 would have thus met back the older Neolithic R1b1b from Anatolia.
In other words R1b1b went round the Black Sea, starting in Anatolia, moving north across the Caucasus, settling in the Pontic steppes alongside R1a, then pushing west towards the Copper-age cultures of "Old Europe" in the Balkans and back to Anatolia. The mainstream of the prosperous Pontic steppe R1b population would have followed the Danube till the Alps when R1a started pressuring them from the Don-Volga region.
The Phrygians are merely an offshoot from the Balkanese Indo-Europeans. A back migration from Central Europe brought the Celtic-speaking Galatians back to Anatolia in the 3rd century BCE. That much is well documented by Greek and Roman accounts and therefore undeniable.
This is just to show you, as concisely as possible, that although R1b1b2 did indeed originated in Anatolia (probably eastern Anatolia + Caucasus) during the Neolithic period, Indo-European speaking tribes of classical times descend from the Bronze-age European branch, namely R1b1b2a1. I know this because of comparative linguistics and because there is some European R1b1b2a1 in Anatolia, mixed with some much older subclades. If the migration of R1b had taken place directly from Anatolia to Europe with the spread of agriculture, as suggested by Balaresque et al. or Dienekes Pontikos, Europe would have a similar blend of disparate old and new R1b subclades + a good deal more of haplogroup J2 and E1b1b.
For How Yes or No:
The Phrygians are also grouped within the Thraco-Cimmerian group in the point that I made. Phrygians, Trojans are groups that I would consider as part of the base group. Two groups in Asia Minor that I failed to mention were the Luvians and Lydians, which are believed to be descended from the Hittites. Actually, there was a massive movement of Cimmerians into that area after they were crushed by the Scythians in the 7th-8th centuries BCE (not sure exactly when). They came under Lydian rule around a century after that.
I would welcome discussion on where Phrygians and Trojans should be placed. I could easily see a Luvians/Lydian source for the Trojans. For the purpose of this thread, my main point is still to show that we have no evidence of early Celts/Gauls in Asia Minor.
For Maciamo:
Good to hear from you. If you would indulge me; where did I mess up?
I would say that the Celts were not absolutely ethnically cohesive, but that their relationship to each other would be comparable to that of the early Germanic groups to each other (Low German-speaking proto Nordic, Eastern Germanic, etc). The same could be said about early Greeks such as Ionians and Dorians. The only big difference here was the extent of early proto-Celtic expansion which had them spread out further and in successive waves. This would in turn result in less close relations.
I had a hard time following your post only because I was not sure what part was directed towards me (maybe all?) Would you consider the La Tene period migrations a backwards/reflux movement?
how yes no 2
29-12-10, 15:37
@Maciamo: it is hard to reply to your post, as you seems to be very convinced in your theory... when you have more time, I would really like to hear more arguments regarding the theory...
For How Yes or No:
The Phrygians are also grouped within the Thraco-Cimmerian group in the point that I made. Phrygians, Trojans are groups that I would consider as part of the base group. Two groups in Asia Minor that I failed to mention were the Luvians and Lydians, which are believed to be descended from the Hittites. Actually, there was a massive movement of Cimmerians into that area after they were crushed by the Scythians in the 7th-8th centuries BCE (not sure exactly when). They came under Lydian rule around a century after that.
From what I remember, Phrygians origin from Bryges who moved into Asia minor from Balkan.. whether they were Cimmerians I really don't know...they could have been...settlement of Cimmerians there would explain spread of I2a2 in west part of Asia minor..
btw. I am curious whether tribal name Bryges was related to Brygindis (local goddess), and to later Germanic tribe of Burgundians
I would welcome discussion on where Phrygians and Trojans should be placed. I could easily see a Luvians/Lydian source for the Trojans. For the purpose of this thread, my main point is still to show that we have no evidence of early Celts/Gauls in Asia Minor.
if there was evidence for early Celts in Asia minor, than what I proposed in this thread would not be new theory but historical fact...
I too would be curious about that word contributing to the name of the Burgundians. I also admit that there is a lot to sort out of the pre-historical period.
archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 19:35
btw. I am curious whether tribal name Bryges was related to Brygindis (local goddess), and to later Germanic tribe of Burgundians
if there was evidence for early Celts in Asia minor, than what I proposed in this thread would not be new theory but historical fact...
Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.
Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.
The language of Bryges is isotones with Greek, the vocabulary left from Phrygians leads to Greco-persian and thracian origin,
we know that Brygians are an isolated thracian group, with most relative the ancient makedonians-Mygdones and the Paeonians
when left to phrygia we find a time changed culture, to Iranian,
Brygians from many linguists are connected with 6 ancient nations,
a Baltic, Hyperborean, a germanic Burgundi, a celtic Brigandi, thracians, a west Iranian Scudra, a para greek or Greco-persian skudra,
brygian is the key to identify Thracians of south, the use ending like -essa compare thracian -sse and Greek -is -issa
Personally for me Vrygians don't have the Dacian -au -av -af but -an and the -us of Greco-latin is -os,
-os exist in P celtic except Greek, that means, at least for me, that brygians were either Celtic, either Greco-persian, south thracian has a lot of persian,
now about the case of R1b moving from minor asia to west europe,
I don't know about the traces that left behind,
but if Myceneans were R1b we know myceneans moved to epirus to Illyria and reach modern Venice, at about 600 BC,
according the tombs we found around Istria,
so the possibility from a wave of R1b passed europe from minor asia is open to me,
besides from Homer we know, that myceneans were in mood to steal noble women and make kids with them,
I believe in future search and analysis will give more data, so we have better results
but the case of a wave or a part of R1b moving from minor asia to Europe, is a big percentage possible from me,
in fact the map of linguistic around 5500 Bc is interesting
5038
Finnish scholar Kalevi Wiik for 5,500 BC:
In fact If I compare the Kurgan case
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_culture#Kurgan_culturehttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Kurgan_map.png
so is it possible IE moved to europe before kurgan 1?
the case of sesclo/dimini shows 2 different culture living beside.
maybe both not IE, but maybe 1 is IE,
the bronze age,
to connect people with bronze and iron we must know ancient mines,
Caucas as mountain could have minerals, but russian steppe?
so we talk about a wooden arm society ?
if we live caucas from north then the next mountain areas is around slovacia and romania, possible mining copper,
but we know from cyprus that copper was known to egyptians before kurgan 4
so Ie where not the first who find copper, at least to south europe and anatolia,
so around cyprus people could defend, while in North and west europe probably they could prevail due to copper,
a possible mix of copper? IE find and used a mix of copper with another metal?
comparing the maps of R1b and R1a around Kurgan 2 and 3 we see small % of R1b, and big R1a
the non mix theory could solve problem but the very small R1b means that R1b could not exist at kurgan 2-3 culture,
so R1b did not have Kurgan and pit grave as went to west europe,
or learned at cucuteni-tripolye times?
in both theories R1b misses Kurgan2-3 times,
but if comes from south east could be present and possibly create cucuteni-tripolye.
Bryges could also be connected with an Indo-Iranian tribe (Bhrigu) so there must have existed an ancient proto-Indo/European deity with a similar name from whom all later groups were named...
Actually in Greek Mythology the Phrygians might be related with the story of Phrixos (from the same root -bhrg-) son of Athamas who was forced to leave from Greece by his stepmother Ino and settled in Asia Minor. The Phrygian and Hellenic languages are within a Greco-Phrygian group that posibly encompasses Armenian and Indo-Aryan languages into a greater Greco-Aryan group.You're mixing some stuff.
By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia. Aryans from West Asia 'aryanized' those native Dravidian Indians.
Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but native Caucasian folks.
archaiocapilos
21-07-11, 22:23
You're mixing some stuff.
By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia. Aryans from West Asia 'aryanized' those native Dravidian Indians.
Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but native Caucasian folks.
Actually you are messing things up...Where did I make any reference on who are or are not the ancient Indo-Aryans from a genetic point of view?
All I said is that Phrygian (LANGUAGE) appears to be closer to Greek (LANGUAGE) and both of them are related more distantly to Armenian (LANGUAGE) and Indo-Aryan (LANGUAGES)...
You're mixing some stuff.
By Indo-Iranian you mean Iranic people. Iranic folks are not Indo-Iranians, but simply Iranian or Aryan.
Indo-Iranians are ancient Latinos of Iranic folks.
You can divide Indo-Europeans in 3 major groups. Some IE folks in Europe, Iranians (Aryans) and Indo-Iranians (Indo-Aryans). All these 3 groups are linguistically connected to each other. Indo-Aryans are the ancient Latinos of the Iranic tribes from West Asia. The speak a related language to the Iranians, but genetically they're very different to the ancient West Iranians. Also, a lot of these Indo-Aryan folks have Iranic blood because of tsome geneflow of Aryans from West Asia.
Armenians are not Aryan (Iranic), but Caucasian folks.
you are wrong
tottaly wrong
Graeco -aryan is the late Proto IE known, LPIE
2 theories come
1) graeko west and qentum language and indo-iranian east satem languages (if IE is north of Caucas, north of Pontic steppes) kurgan hypothesis
2) Graeco-aryan split to graeco-armenian and sanskrit (if IE is colchis area of Laz south west of caucas, south east of pontus Euxinus)
graeco-armenian split to greco-phrygian and armeno-aryan
armeno-aryan split to armenian and iranian while iranian mixed with indo comes the later Indo-iranian,
Aryan does not mean Iranian
Aryan is the language before LPIE
you are wrong
tottaly wrong
Graeco -aryan is the late Proto IE known, LPIE
2 theories come
1) graeko west and qentum language and indo-iranian east satem languages (if IE is north of Caucas, north of Pontic steppes) kurgan hypothesis
2) Graeco-aryan split to graeco-armenian and sanskrit (if IE is colchis area of Laz south west of caucas, south east of pontus Euxinus)
graeco-armenian split to greco-phrygian and armeno-aryan
armeno-aryan split to armenian and iranian while iranian mixed with indo comes the later Indo-iranian,
Aryan does not mean Iranian
Aryan is the language before LPIE
Under which stone and on what planet do you live?
LMAO, graeco-aryan and armeno-aryan = 100% pure nonsense...
Iranian/Aryan (Kurdish & Persian) are far more related to Slavic languages than to Armenian.
Sanscrit is an INDO-Aryan language and not an Iranian (Aryan) language...
Actually you are messing things up...Where did I make any reference on who are or are not the ancient Indo-Aryans from a genetic point of view?
All I said is that Phrygian (LANGUAGE) appears to be closer to Greek (LANGUAGE) and both of them are related more distantly to Armenian (LANGUAGE) and Indo-Aryan (LANGUAGES)...
Indo-Aryan languages are closely related to Iranic (Iranian/Aryan) languages...
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/~jlynch/language.gif
http://www.best-infographics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/18.jpg
Under which stone and on what planet do you live?
LMAO, graeco-aryan and armeno-aryan = 100% pure nonsense...
Iranian/Aryan (Kurdish & Persian) are far more related to Slavic languages that to Armenian.
probably you are another who believes bullshit tellers
The Cambridge History of the English Language, 1992, ISBN 9780521264747
Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0195144130
NOw give your sources?
http://andromeda.rutgers.edu/%7Ejlynch/language.gif
Hahaha where is gaulish, the vrygian, the hetit the Dacian the thracian?
Are you nuts?
the most ancient known languages is homeric and sanskrit
we find words that exist in only those 2 understand it,
all your diagrams are wrong
where belong the welsh?
where are the P-celtic? the Latvian the esthonian?
I gave you 2 good sources
search and you realize that Aryan is the language that connects Greece to india, and we don't know but possible also celtic
ARYAN
means 1 of the 3
Golden people (ar- oro etc) (use knowhow merchants religion connection)
white people (αργυρος, argent)
warriors ορ elite people ( αρεν= αρ ει, Αρ-ης, Ερις Aριστος (noble) Αρ-μεν)
and not iranian,
in your last jpc from there you say thracians until the sanskrit they are the aryan family,
The Iranian Languages
Edited by Gernot Windfuhr
Published December 20th 2009 by Routledge – 884 pages
http://www.routledge.com/books/details/9780700711314/
http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN3110161133&id=KFBDGWjCP7gC&pg=PA221&lpg=PA221&vq=aryan+languages&dq=aryan+languages+iranian&sig=11bYU5iUtJpZx-Ct7VdMBvOjG_c#v=onepage&q=aryan%20languages&f=false
Gordon, Raymond G., Jr. (ed.) (2005). "Report for Iranian languages" (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90019). Ethnologue: Languages of the World (Dallas: SIL International). http://www.ethnologue.com/show_family.asp?subid=90019.
You are a weird dude. Greeks (or Armenians) have NOTHING to do with Aryans. Btw, Greeks are even more Afro-Asiatic than Indo-European. And even those 'Indo-Europized' native Europeans have not so much to do with Aryans...
Under which stone and on what planet do you live???
The Medes in the army were equipped like the Persians; indeed, that fashion of armor is Median, not Persian. Their commander was Tigranes, an Achaemenid. The Medes were formerly called by everyone Arians (1), but when the Colchian woman Medea came from Athens to the Arians they changed their name, like the Persians. This is the Medes' own account of themselves.
(1) Modern philology gives the name “Aryan” of course a very much wider extension; which indeed was beginning even in the time of Strabo.
Herodotus; with an English translation by A. D. Godley. Cambridge. Harvard University Press. 1920.
The Annenberg CPB/Project provided support for entering this text
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.+7.62.1
The Medes served in the expedition equipped in precisely the same manner; for this equipment is in fact Median and not Persian: and the Medes acknowledged as their commander Tigranes an Achaimenid. These in ancient time used to be generally called Arians; but when Medea the Colchian came from Athens to these Arians, they also changed their name. Thus the Medes themselves report about themselves. The Kissians served with equipment in other respects like that of the Persians, but instead of the felt caps they wore fillets: and of the Kissians Anaphes the son of Otanes was commander. The Hyrcanians were armed like the Persians, acknowledging as their leader Megapanos, the same who after these events became governor of Babylon.
Μῆδοι δὲ τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἐσταλμένοι ἐστρατεύοντο· Μηδικὴ γὰρ αὕτη ἡ σκευή ἐστι καὶ οὐ Περσική. οἱ δὲ Μῆδοι ἄρχοντα μὲν παρείχοντο Τιγράνην ἄνδρα Ἀχαιμενίδην, ἐκαλέοντο δὲ πάλαι πρὸς πάντων Ἄριοι, ἀπικομένης δὲ Μηδείης τῆς Κολχίδος ἐξ Ἀθηνέων ἐς τοὺς Ἀρίους τούτους μετέβαλον καὶ οὗτοι τὸ οὔνομα. αὐτοὶ περὶ σφέων ὧδε λέγουσι Μῆδοι. [2] Κίσσιοι δὲ στρατευόμενοι τὰ μὲν ἄλλα κατά περ Πέρσαι ἐσκευάδατο, ἀντὶ δὲ τῶν πίλων μιτρηφόροι ἦσαν. Κισσίων δὲ ἦρχε Ἀνάφης ὁ Ὀτάνεω. Ὑρκάνιοι δὲ κατά περ Πέρσαι ἐσεσάχατο, ἡγεμόνα παρεχόμενοι Μεγάπανον τὸν Βαβυλῶνος ὕστερον τούτων ἐπιτροπεύσαντα.
The Arians were equipped with Median bows, and in other respects like the Bactrians: and of the Arians Sisamnes the son of Hydarnes was in command. The Parthians and Chorasmians and Sogdians and Gandarians and Dadicans served with the same equipment as the Bactrians. Of these the commanders were, Artabazos the son of Pharnakes of the Parthians and Chorasmians, Azanes the son of Artaios of the Sogdians, and Artyphios the son of Artabanos of the Gandarians and Dadicans.
Ἄριοι δὲ τόξοισι μὲν ἐσκευασμένοι ἦσαν Μηδικοῖσι, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα κατά περ Βάκτριοι. Ἀρίων δὲ ἦρχε Σισάμνης ὁ Ὑδάρνεος. Πάρθοι δὲ καὶ Χοράσμιοι καὶ Σόγδοι τε καὶ Γανδάριοι καὶ Δαδίκαι τὴν αὐτὴν σκευὴν ἔχοντες τὴν καὶ Βάκτριοι ἐστρατεύοντο. [2] τούτων δὲ ἦρχον οἵδε. Πάρθων μὲν καὶ Χορασμίων Ἀρτάβαζος ὁ Φαρνάκεος, Σόγδων δὲ Ἀζάνης ὁ Ἀρταίου, Γανδαρίων δὲ καὶ Δαδικέων Ἀρτύφιος ὁ Ἀρταβάνου.
http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=626
Medes were Iranic folks. They are the ancestors of the Kurds and some West Persians. They were the real Aryans, according to the Greek historian Herodotus...
You are a weird dude. Greeks (or Armenians) have NOTHING to do with Aryans. Btw, Greeks are even more Afro-Asiatic than Indo-European. And even those 'Indo-Europized' native Europeans have not so much to do with Aryans...
Under which stone and on what planet do you live???
you are nuts and you are allien
I gave you 2 modern theories and still speak of bullshit
Aryan = Greeks Armenians Phrygian Iranian -Sanskrit
I guess the word ar exist more in Greek and sanskrit than in your language?
probably you never heard the word Graeko-aryan
and now your dreams drope
you are nuts and you are allien
I gave you 2 modern theories and still speak of bullshit
Aryan = Greeks Armenians Phrygian Iranian -Sanskrit
I guess the word ar exist more in Greek and sanskrit than in your language?
probably you never heard the word Graeko-aryan
and now your dreams drope
You definitely do live on the other planet.
First you said that Turkish is a Hattic language and now Greek is an Aryan Language. Dude, you are ignorant as hell. Go to school and educate yourself.
The Medes served in the expedition equipped in precisely the same manner; for this equipment is in fact Median and not Persian: and the Medes acknowledged as their commander Tigranes an Achaimenid. These in ancient time used to be generally called Arians; but when Medea the Colchian came from Athens to these Arians, they also changed their name. Thus the Medes themselves report about themselves. The Kissians served with equipment in other respects like that of the Persians, but instead of the felt caps they wore fillets: and of the Kissians Anaphes the son of Otanes was commander. The Hyrcanians were armed like the Persians, acknowledging as their leader Megapanos, the same who after these events became governor of Babylon.
Μῆδοι δὲ τὴν αὐτὴν ταύτην ἐσταλμένοι ἐστρατεύοντο· Μηδικὴ γὰρ αὕτη ἡ σκευή ἐστι καὶ οὐ Περσική. οἱ δὲ Μῆδοι ἄρχοντα μὲν παρείχοντο Τιγράνην ἄνδρα Ἀχαιμενίδην, ἐκαλέοντο δὲ πάλαι πρὸς πάντων Ἄριοι, ἀπικομένης δὲ Μηδείης τῆς Κολχίδος ἐξ Ἀθηνέων ἐς τοὺς Ἀρίους τούτους μετέβαλον καὶ οὗτοι τὸ οὔνομα. αὐτοὶ περὶ σφέων ὧδε λέγουσι Μῆδοι. [2] Κίσσιοι δὲ στρατευόμενοι τὰ μὲν ἄλλα κατά περ Πέρσαι ἐσκευάδατο, ἀντὶ δὲ τῶν πίλων μιτρηφόροι ἦσαν. Κισσίων δὲ ἦρχε Ἀνάφης ὁ Ὀτάνεω. Ὑρκάνιοι δὲ κατά περ Πέρσαι ἐσεσάχατο, ἡγεμόνα παρεχόμενοι Μεγάπανον τὸν Βαβυλῶνος ὕστερον τούτων ἐπιτροπεύσαντα.
The Arians were equipped with Median bows, and in other respects like the Bactrians: and of the Arians Sisamnes the son of Hydarnes was in command. The Parthians and Chorasmians and Sogdians and Gandarians and Dadicans served with the same equipment as the Bactrians. Of these the commanders were, Artabazos the son of Pharnakes of the Parthians and Chorasmians, Azanes the son of Artaios of the Sogdians, and Artyphios the son of Artabanos of the Gandarians and Dadicans.
Ἄριοι δὲ τόξοισι μὲν ἐσκευασμένοι ἦσαν Μηδικοῖσι, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα κατά περ Βάκτριοι. Ἀρίων δὲ ἦρχε Σισάμνης ὁ Ὑδάρνεος. Πάρθοι δὲ καὶ Χοράσμιοι καὶ Σόγδοι τε καὶ Γανδάριοι καὶ Δαδίκαι τὴν αὐτὴν σκευὴν ἔχοντες τὴν καὶ Βάκτριοι ἐστρατεύοντο. [2] τούτων δὲ ἦρχον οἵδε. Πάρθων μὲν καὶ Χορασμίων Ἀρτάβαζος ὁ Φαρνάκεος, Σόγδων δὲ Ἀζάνης ὁ Ἀρταίου, Γανδαρίων δὲ καὶ Δαδικέων Ἀρτύφιος ὁ Ἀρταβάνου.
http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=626
watch εις τους Αρειους τουτους, to these arian, so who were the other Arian?
do you know?
JUST READ THAT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Aryan
And try to understand
Αρ-ιστος
Ar-men
Ar-yan
is same word
now
Αορ Αορτη, Αριος = bow bowman
Aρις = to penetrate
Maybe I live in another planet but you live in Albania, Holland Canada , Australia
so you live no-where As Zeus 10 lives no-where
YOU ARE THE ONLY ONE SO SAY SO
Αρ = gold
Aryur = silver
Ar-en = warrior man
Ar-istamai = I am Noble
once again Zeus 10 your bullshit go to toilet
do not forget the waterfall to clean your mess
Goga the Geg Albanian who believes he is more ancient Greek than the Greeks :useless: :useless:
and Greek language is wrong and Greeks should learn Albanian to speak Homeric
he and Kolia Ahahahaha.
He gave me link of Zeus 10 :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
I Guess you are not even a kurd Ahahahahaha
Goga not even Konka as the original should be from konkaionion
ahahahahaha
Age29 About Goga
Country of residenceNetherlands City/state of residenceAmsterdam NationalityDutch Mother tongueOther Ethnic groupKurd GenderMale Y-DNA haplogroupHomo sapien mtDNA haplogroupHomo sapien
hahaha a Kurd who is connected with Zeus 10
http://arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=626
look what he gave for link
ZEUS 10 if you ever read Plato
then you will learn about
η δημοκρατια των αριστων, (democracy of Aryans)
archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 00:55
Goga your tables are from outdated data (offcourse noone can prove the existance of Greco-Aryan group but it is a fair theory)...
Indo-European languages are related with various ways like :
1. Centum/Satem group where Latin/Germanic/Celtic/Greek/Tokharian are classified as Centum while Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan are classified as Satem
2. Greek, Phrygian, Armenian, Iranian and Indo-Aryan share the past aorist augment,a charachteristic wich is absent in all other languages and unites them in a broader group within Indo-European languages
3. Greek like Iranian has (h) instead of (s) infront of words (compare Greek hepta=seven with Latin septe=seven or Greek herpeton=serpent with Iranian haoma=drink of Gods instead of Sanscrit Soma)
4. There exist some isoglosses among the Greco-Aryan languages that are exclusive to them
Goga your tables are from outdated data (offcourse noone can prove the existance of Greco-Aryan group but it is a fair theory)...
Indo-European languages are related with various ways like :
1. Centum/Satem group where Latin/Germanic/Celtic/Greek/Tokharian are classified as Centum while Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan are classified as Satem
2. Greek, Phrygian, Armenian, Iranian and Indo-Aryan share the past aorist augment,a charachteristic wich is absent in all other languages and unites them in a broader group within Indo-European languages
3. Greek like Iranian has (h) instead of (s) infront of words (compare Greek hepta=seven with Latin septe=seven or Greek herpeton=serpent with Iranian haoma=drink of Gods instead of Sanscrit Soma)
4. There exist some isoglosses among the Greco-Aryan languages that are exclusive to them
in fact that theory comes if follow the laws of IE backwards
they unite Greek Armenian and Persian, and then all these with sanskrit to 1 group the aryan
All 3 languages meet in area of laz people and in Kars
that is why is Graeko and not Greco caused comes from homeric Γραικοι Graecoi
while Greco is what left after the Greco-Vrygian split
Goga your tables are from outdated data (offcourse noone can prove the existance of Greco-Aryan group but it is a fair theory)...
Indo-European languages are related with various ways like :
1. Centum/Satem group where Latin/Germanic/Celtic/Greek/Tokharian are classified as Centum while Balto-Slavic, Albanian, Armenian, Iranian, Indo-Aryan are classified as Satem
2. Greek, Phrygian, Armenian, Iranian and Indo-Aryan share the past aorist augment,a charachteristic wich is absent in all other languages and unites them in a broader group within Indo-European languages
3. Greek like Iranian has (h) instead of (s) infront of words (compare Greek hepta=seven with Latin septe=seven or Greek herpeton=serpent with Iranian haoma=drink of Gods instead of Sanscrit Soma)
4. There exist some isoglosses among the Greco-Aryan languages that are exclusive to them
I'm familiar with that hypothetical Graeco-Aryan (Graeco-Iranian) family language. Of course is Aryan (Iranic) language part of a proto-IE language, but proto-IE is not part of Aryan languages. Aryan evolved from proto-IE. But that doesn't mean that other modern IE langauges are Aryan too. That's nonsense.
Armenians are descendants of Urartu and Urartu folks weren't even Indo-European, but Caucasian. Armenians are just a bunch of racists and religious fanatics that believe in their own fairy tales and Hollywood stories.
I thought that Kurdish is closer to Russian (proto-Slavic languages) than to Greek. Because of the Scythians. Think about Kurdish name for gold is 'zir' and in Russian it is 'zolota'. What happened is in Kurdish: 'che bu' and in Russian: 'chto bilo'. Woman is in Kurdish: 'zjin' and in Russian 'zjina' or 'zjensjina'. And there're countless other examples...
I'm familiar with that hypothetical Graeco-Aryan (Graeco-Iranian) family language. Of course is Aryan (Iranic) language part of a proto-IE language, but proto-IE is not part of Aryan languages. Aryan evolved from proto-IE. But that doesn't mean that other modern IE langauges are Aryan too. That's nonsense.
Armenians are descendants of Urartu and Urartu folks weren't even Indo-European, but Caucasian. Armenians are just a bunch of racists and religious fanatics that believe in their own fairy tales and Hollywood stories.
I thought that Kurdish is closer to Russian (proto-Slavic languages) than to Greek. Because of the Scythians. Think about Kurdish name for gold is 'zir' and in Russian it is 'zolota'. What happened is in Kurdish: 'che bu' and in Russian: 'chto bilo'. Woman is in Kurdish: 'zjin' and in Russian 'zjina' or 'zjensjina'. And there're countless other examples...
Hahahaha
many untested non well based, or low prove theories give the oposite
that slavic is from iranian origin, offcourse that is not a claim or a statement but a possibility that an indo-Iranic language existed in North of Caspian and moved west
besides I believe you are not even a Kurd,
cause if you were then you know that Kurd share some phenotypes with Greeks and most of all
only these 2 share common dances,
wake up, if you are a kurd,
@ iapetoc
I'm sorry if I insulted you. But it is useless for both of us to argument with each other. We're far off topic.
These are you own words:
In fact anatolian Greeks are more closely to Levantines and more local to minor asia than kurds,
they share a j2a which exist only in them,
And I think you're right. Kurds have a different origin than Greeks, because Kurds have far more I & R1a (28.5-44.5 %) haplogroups, but slightly less r1b (8-17 %) haplogroup than Greeks (in general). They share some j2 and Greeks have much more e1b1b.
The population of Turkish Kurds as much bigger than that of Iraqi Kurds.
i %
Greeks = 14.5
Iraqi Kurds = 17
Turkey Kurds = 25
e1b1b %
Greeks = 21 %
Iraqi Kurds = 7.5 %
Turkey Kurds = 2.5 %
r1a %
Greeks = 11.5 %
Iraqi Kurds = 11.5 %
Turkey Kurds = 19.5 %
r1b %
Greeks = 15.5 %
Iraqi Kurds = 17 %
Turkey Kurds = 8 %
j2 %
Greeks = 23 %
Iraqi Kurds = 28.5 %
Turkey Kurds = 7 %
j1 %
Greeks = 3 %
Iraqi Kurds = 11.5 %
Turkey Kurds = 0 %
g2a %
Greeks = 6.5 %
Iraqi Kurds = 4 %
Turkey Kurds = 12.5 %
archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 02:42
And I think you're right. Kurds have a different origin than Greeks, because Kurds have far more I & R1a (28.5-44.5 % - Iraq Kurds-Turkey Kurds) haplogroups, but slightly less r1b (8-17 % Turkey Kurds-Iraq Kurds) haplogroup than Greeks (in genereal). They share some j2 (7-28.5% - Turkey Kurds-Iraq Kurds) and Greeks have much more e1b1b.
j2 %
Indeed Kurds are a lot different than Greeks (and all other Europeans) because they score 10% South Asian component in Autosomal analysis(0-1% in Europe) and as low as 5% NEuropean component (which is 25% in Greece)
Indeed Kurds are a lot different than Greeks (and all other Europeans) because they score 10% South Asian component in Autosomal analysis(0-1% in Europe) and as low as 5% NEuropean component (which is 25% in Greece)
Which haplogroup in Kurds is South Asian? Maybe they do consider r2 as South Asian. Kurmanji Kurds in North Kurdistan have very much r2, but r2 can also be found among peoples of Caucasus (Ossetians, Chechens etc.) and East Iranians, like Tajiks...
Btw, Greeks have much more than 10% of African component...
@ iapetoc
I'm sorry if I insulted you. But it is useless for both of us to argument with each other. We're far off topic.
These are you own words:
And I think you're right. Kurds have a different origin than Greeks, because Kurds have far more I & R1a (28.5-44.5 % - Iraq Kurds-Turkey Kurds) haplogroups, but slightly less r1b (8-17 % Turkey Kurds-Iraq Kurds) haplogroup than Greeks (in genereal). They share some j2 (7-28.5% - Turkey Kurds-Iraq Kurds) and Greeks have much more e1b1b.
e1b1b %
Greeks = 21 %
Iraqi Kurds = 7.5 %
Turkey Kurds = 2.5 %
bah
compare the J and their origin
compare the R1b
E1b1 you talk about is Arcado-Cypriot origin
the J are the typical of origin in minor asian tribes
compare and make analysis of J among all,
and the the R1b
R1a we have little analysis evidence
but compare the R1a1*
there you understand
and besides what is your problem with greeks?
except if you really are a kurd but the person I speak about,
ρε καπηλε σου στειλα 1 εμαιλ
archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 02:53
Which haplogroup in Kurds is South Asian? Maybe they do consider r2 as South Asian. kurmanji Kurds in North Kurdistan have very much r2, but r2 can also be found among peoples of Caucasus and East Iranians, like Tajiks...
Autosomal analysis is not only related to your own Y-DNA or mtDNA but to your paternal-grand mother's mtDNA or your maternal grand-father's Y-DNA too...this means that it includes all of your ancestors and not only your paternal or maternal ancestry.
and besides what is your problem with greeks?
except if you really are a kurd but the person I speak about,What's your problem with the Kurds? Do you think that Kurds occupy your (or Armenian) homeland or something?
Autosomal analysis is not only related to your own Y-DNA or mtDNA but to your paternal-grand mother's mtDNA or your maternal grand-father's Y-DNA too...this means that it includes all of your ancestors and not only your paternal or maternal ancestry.Have you ever seen Kurdish MtDNA???
But again, which haplogroup in Kurds is South Asian? Can you answer me this question?
If you ask me which haplogroup in Greeks is African, than I give you a straight answer and say it's E1b1b. And that's much more than 10%. Greeks are much much more African than Kurds South Asian...
What's your problem with the Kurds? Do you think that Kurds occupy your (or Armenian) land or something?
you are nuts,
did you ever hear me say something like that in the threads about kurds?
did you ever read my posts about kurds?
get lost man, go back to turkish army.
Have you ever seen Kurdish MtDNA???
But again, which haplogroup in Kurds is South Asian? Can you answer me this question?
If you ask me which haplogroup in Greeks is African, than I give you a straight answer and say it's E1b1b. And that's much more than 10%. Greeks are much much more African than Kurds South Asian...
you are an ignorant
The E-M78 of Greeks is arcado-cypriot Ydna
you are an ignorant
IT IS LEVANTINE NOT AFRICAN
simply it is not worthy to speak with you
your hate against greeks is obvious
you are not able even to discuss
You are not even a Kurd,
"For both mtDNA andthe Y-chromosome, all Kurdish groups are more similar to West Asians than to Central Asian, Caucasian, or European groups, and these differences are significant in most cases. However, for mtDNA, Kurdish groups are all most similar to European groups (after West Asians)"
"Richards et al. (2000) suggested that some Near Eastern mtDNA haplotypes, among them Kurdish ones from east Turkey, presumably originated in Europe and were associated with back-migrations from Europe to the Near East, which may explain the close relationship of Kurdish and European groups with respect to mtDNA."
http://ww.kurdis.net/files/Kurds.pdf
South Asian my @ss...
archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 03:38
"For both mtDNA andthe Y-chromosome, all Kurdish groups are more similar to West Asians than to Central Asian, Caucasian, or European groups, and these differences are significant in most cases. However, for mtDNA, Kurdish groups are all most similar to European groups (after West Asians)"
"Richards et al. (2000) suggested that some Near Eastern mtDNA haplotypes, among them Kurdish ones from east Turkey, presumably originated in Europe and were associated with back-migrations from Europe to the Near East, which may explain the close relationship of Kurdish and European groups with respect to mtDNA."
http://ww.kurdis.net/files/Kurds.pdf
South Asian my @ss...
You don't get it, do you? Autosomal analysis in Dodecad project scores 10% South Asian for Kurds even if you don't like it... it is something that is obvious in phenotype of Kurds and Europeans easily detect this forreign influence almost with the first look.
Even your strong I2a1b-Din is propably a founder effect...
You don't get it, do you? Autosomal analysis in Dodecad project scores 10% South Asian for Kurds even if you don't like it... it is something that is obvious in phenotype of Kurds and Europeans easily detect this forreign influence almost with the first look.
Even your strong I2a1b-Din is propably a founder effect...
There're different so called pseudo-scientific dodecad projects. This one says something different than your example. But can you give an example of a true scientist? Which Kurdish haplogroup is South Asian?
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/structure-in-west-asian-indo-european.html
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TRx2uBZa97I/AAAAAAAADHs/heRqCALpTBI/s1600/ADMIXTURE_3.png
And founder effect? We are not talking about a small population, but about millions of people!
Of course there're some links between South-Asia (North India) and Kurds, because anciently there was a lot interaction between West and East Iranians. And there was also interaction between Aryans from West Asia and their ancient 'Latinos' (Indo-Aryans) in South Asia....
"For both mtDNA andthe Y-chromosome, all Kurdish groups are more similar to West Asians than to Central Asian, Caucasian, or European groups, and these differences are significant in most cases. However, for mtDNA, Kurdish groups are all most similar to European groups (after West Asians)"
"Richards et al. (2000) suggested that some Near Eastern mtDNA haplotypes, among them Kurdish ones from east Turkey, presumably originated in Europe and were associated with back-migrations from Europe to the Near East, which may explain the close relationship of Kurdish and European groups with respect to mtDNA."
http://ww.kurdis.net/files/Kurds.pdf
South Asian my @ss...
go to threads for kurds
There're different so called pseudo scientific dodecad projects. This one says soemthing different than your example.
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/structure-in-west-asian-indo-european.html
YOU ARE A .......
Read carefully
The high blue component distinguishes Kurds from both Iranians and Armenians/Turks. Iranians have slightly more of it, suggesting a somewhat closer relationship. The difference between the small Dodecad Turkish sample and the Behar et al. one is suggestive of heterogeneity within Turks, so it is important to be aware of this. Hopefully, if more West Asian individuals join the project, we will be able to discover patterns of regional variation between and within different ethnic groups.
Posted by Dienekes at 1:41 PM (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/12/structure-in-west-asian-indo-european.html)
now goblin back to your hut
next time becarefull what you post
Alan is a real Kurd and knows better what we discuss about,
in fact his questions were good ones,
you are not, you are just a goblin
capilos stop talking to him
he does not know what he is talking about,
all he wants to create impressions, false impressions just to make noise, and break nerves,
the data to your bullshit
To study the relationship between the various West Asian Indo-European groups, I gathered an Iranian sample (from Behar et al.), an Iraqi Kurdish one (from Xing et al.), an Armenian one (from Behar et al.), as well as an Armenian one from the Dodecad Project. I have also included the Behar et al. Turkish sample, and a new Turkish sample from the Dodecad Project.
it is inner project among those who stay in same area how relatives are GOBLIN
not where belong or connected,
You are a Goblin because both Dodecad were made by SAME PROJECT AND SAME TEAM
But you accept one cause suits you and reject the other,
You are a goblin cause you don't even what that factor SE ASIA is and you say what ever you like, It is Not from N India, but from Central
Enough,
Better ask questions than claiming only the ones you Like
ALAN HELP HE IS A GOBLIN
Btw, about the Kurdish phenotype. Most Kurds look very much 'Iranic' to me... I can distinguish an average Kurd from an Arab, a Greek, a Turk or an Indian from a far distance...
Read carefully
The high blue component distinguishes Kurds from both Iranians and Armenians/Turks. Iranians have slightly more of it, suggesting a somewhat closer relationship. The difference between the small Dodecad Turkish sample and the Behar et al. one is suggestive of heterogeneity within Turks, so it is important to be aware of this. Hopefully, if more West Asian individuals join the project, we will be able to discover patterns of regional variation between and within different ethnic groups.Lol, the high blue component distinguishes Kurds from both Iranians and Armenians/Turks is NOT South-Asian, but West Iranic component. This is how I understand it. But these kind of pseudo-scientific dodecad projects are pure nonsense anyway.
archaiocapilos
23-07-11, 02:47
And founder effect? We are not talking about a small population, but about millions of people!
The Jews are millions but they suffer from multiple founder effects too. For example haplogroup Q that is 5% in Jews is beleived to be a founder effect that happened around 800 CE...if the founder effect in Kurds is older than 800 CE (propably it is much older) then it has enough time to grow and include 10-15% of Kurds.
The Jews are millions but they suffer from multiple founder effects too. For example haplogroup Q that is 5% in Jews is beleived to be a founder effect that happened around 800 CE...if the founder effect in Kurds is older than 800 CE (propably it is much older) then it has enough time to grow and include 10-15% of Kurds.I don't think it's the case. Jews are from the Middle East, that's why q is alien to them and to other peoples from the Middle East. Jews are Semitic. Hg q is not Semitic but Turkic. That's why people consider q in Jews as a founder effect. And that's ONLY 5%, 5% ain't no 20% !
Kurds are Iranic folks and speak an Indo-European language. Haplogorup I is part of their ethnicity and it was always part of their ethnicity. This is what makes Iranic folks Iranic. Kurds have also a different mtdna than their neighbours. A lot mtdna haplogroups that have been found in Europe are also very common in Kurdistan, like u, hv, h, v, w, j1 & j2.
There're 40 million Kurds (maybe even more) and just 6 million Jews in Israel. About 20% (maybe more; they didn't count Kurds from Iran) of all Kurds belong to I. That means about 8 million (I counted women too) of Kurds are in I. That is more than the total population of Jews in Israel. Or even some nations in Europe!
I don't think it has something to do with a founder effect, but is just an integral part of a Kurdish race/ethnicity from the beginning...
Hg i is scattered all over Kurdistan. It's just not at 1 place, but spread all over the whole Kurdish area.
8 million + 20+ % of a total population of 40 million and a founder effect? = no way, just impossible!!!!!
These are the facts, and even haters can't change this.
I agree with Iapotec. Goga I assume you and this KurdishAryan joke have a connection. And I highly doubt that you are a Kurd. A Kurd would never show such a ridiculous map claiming kurdish being derived from Middle Persian. Try to behave yourself in better manners.
Guys simply stop discussing about issues which you dont understand. And I am primary referring to Goga and archaiocapilos
1. First of all and very important and I am tired about mentioning it every time again The results of Dodecad are only representative for 5 Million Kurds living in Iraq. There we have more than 18 Million Kurds in Turkey, 3 Million in Syria and 8 Million in Iran.
2. Just because Dienekes calls this Element "South Asian" it doesent mean it is only South Asian. There iare two branches in the South Asian component. One of them being ANI another ASI. The difference is as much as the difference between North and East Africans. The ANI Element is mainly found in Central Asians and the Indus Vally and is more similar to West Asian component. The ASI component is most similar to South Indians. The South Asian Element among Iraqi Kurds is mostly ANI and very similar to that of Pathans and Kalash People.
3. Kurds of Iraq might have a bit more of the South(Central) Asian ANI component but at the same time, they have less Semitic than Lebanese and the African is almost absent. Also the Iraqi Kurds usually have 11% East/West European components which is usually around 1-2% among Armenians, Assyrians and Lebanese. Even the Iraqi! Kurds tend more North than Armenians or Levantines
summarized
Dienekes Iraqi Kurds have affinities at/with
42% "Georgian, Adygai"
http://media.nj.com/ledgerupdates_impact/photo/circassian-winter-olympicsjpg-8bc8afd988e690bc_large.jpghttp://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/morozzzka/Morozzzka0911/Morozzzka091100044/5948607-handsome-georgian-man-is-standing-with-his-girlfriend-in-outdoors.jpg
21.5% "Sardinian"
http://www.geo-reisecommunity.de/bild/regular/318870/Sarden.jpg
14.5% "South Jordan, Saudi Arabia"
http://photos.travellerspoint.com/169260/Jordanier.jpghttp://img3.allvoices.com/thumbs/image/609/480/73803139-arrests-saudi.jpg
10.5% "North Russian and British"
http://www.mosnews.com/photos/gallery/1191/1196_580x.jpghttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f98opUNuVXc/SJa9QqFTJqI/AAAAAAAABho/hwuNC7f9vCw/s400/Ged+Fulton.jpg
9% "Kalash or Pathan"
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1139/1484715351_39c082ecdb.jpghttp://ramblingroses.net/PathanGuard.JPG
So People should stop talking about admixture when they have no Idea about what really is meant by those various Elements.
Goga I assume you and this KurdishAryan joke have a connection. And I highly doubt that you are a Kurd. A Kurd would never show such a ridiculous map claiming kurdish being derived from Middle Persian. Try to behave yourself in better manners.
Dude, I do really appreciate everything what you're doing for the Kurds on this forum and other forums. But sometimes you act like a child. I stopped playing such childish games when I stopped visiting the kindergarten!
Kurdish is very close to Persian and nobody knows exact relationship between the 2 languages. Kurds and Western Persians are both West Iranic folks and share some ancestors, though Western Persians are more mixed with other races than Kurds!
You're a strange fella, you insult your own people without knowing it! Are you that naïve? You still believe in fairy tales! What you're doing is PSEUDO-science, and you think that you're a true scientist.
Southern Kurds are for about 25% Hurrian (like folks in the Caucasus mountains), between 55 to 60 % Iranic, about 10% Semitic and around 5 to 10 % everything else. But this is PSEUOD-science too, because according to me Kurds are 100% West Asian Iranic folks.
I think that the ancient Iranic folks had also the same 'South Asian', 'West Asian', 'North European' and 'Caucasian' components in them from the beginning as they do have nowadays...
You totally ignore the 'Iranic' component in Kurds! This is the biggest insult I have ever seen...
Dude, I do really appreciate everything what you're doing for the Kurds on this forum and other forums. But sometimes you act like a child. I stopped playing such childish games when I stopped visiting the kindergarten!
I dont need appreciation from a Person with such a manner take it for yourself.
Kurdish is very close to Persian and nobody knows exact relationship between the 2 languages. Kurds and Western Persians are both West Iranic folks and share some ancestors, though Western Persians are more mixed with other races than Kurds!
Stop teaching me things you dont have any knowledge about. Being close to Persian language doesent mean it comes from Middle Persian and this is exactly what your map shows. And that you firstly showed this map, talk since your arrival about Iranic, Aryan and now behave like a ridiculous child shows me exactly that you arent a Kurd. Either you are a Turk trying to make Kurds a bad name or you are rather confused Persians dude feeling the duty to connect the Kurds as much as possible to your "Pan Iran" and next you will claim Kurds are Persian Nomads.
No one denied the connection between Kurdish and Persian languages but you make a story out of this.
You're a strange fella, you insult your own people without knowing it! Are you that naïve? You still believe in fairy tales! What you're doing is PSEUDO-science, and you think that you're a true scientist.
Southern Kurds are for about 25% Hurrian (like folks in the Caucasus mountains), between 55 to 60 % Iranic, about 10% Semitic and around 5 to 10 % everything else. But this is PSEUOD-science too, because according to me Kurds are 100% West Asian Iranic folks.
I think that the ancient Iranic folks had also the same 'South Asian', 'West Asian', 'North European' and 'Caucasian' components in them from the beginning as they do have nowadays...
I also do not have to support maniacs and mass murders just because they are Kurds. I support you since the last second because I thought you were a Kurd, (what I doubt really) even though you had thesis and behaved like a ill-mannered kid in some of your Posts.
Calling a work "pseudo" science, but at the same time making percentages of Hurrian and Iranic blood in Kurds. This is what I call pseudo science.
You totally ignore the 'Iranic' component in Kurds! This is the biggest insult I have ever seen...
"Iranic" component this is what I call Iranian nationalism. Were did I ignore the Iranic input in Kurds? Didnt I mentioned many many times that Kurds have Scythian/Cimmerian as well Phrygian/Gutian/Hurrian ancestors?
Which of those components you joke evolved in Iran.
West Asian peaks in Adygai
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DOD-v3-West-Asian.jpg
Mediterranean is strongest in Sardinia
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DOD-v3-Med2.jpg
West European in Norway and British Isle.
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DOD-v3-West-European2.jpg
East European in Russia and the Baltic States
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DOD-v3-East-European2.jpg
.....
Where do you find a "Iranic" specific gene?
"Iranic" component this is what I call Persian nationalism. Were did I ignore the Iranic input in Kurds? Didnt I mentioned many many times that Kurds have Scythian/Cimmerian as well Gutian/Hurrian ancestors?
Which of those components you joke evolved in Iran.
West Asian peaks in Adygai
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/DOD-v3-West-Asian.jpg
Mediterranean is strongest in Sardinia
http://blog.jattdna.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/DOD-v3-Med2.jpg
West European in Norway and British Isle.
http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=567
East European in Russia and the Baltic States
http://blog.jattdna.org/?attachment_id=561
.....
Where do you find a "Iranic" specific gene?LOL, you're truly a very confused fella.
Are you a 'moron', or you act like one? Adygai (Circassian) folks? Who the f*ck are these Adygay folks, with all due respect to them! There're 40 million Kurds and do you really think that these 40 million Kurds are descendants of only 3.5 million Adygai (Circassians) folks? Most of them (2 million) are assimilated into a Turkish culture. I think that only the Hurrian ancestors of the Kurds were related to the Adygay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people
You're delusional!
You like it or not, Kurds are descendants of the ancient Medes (and Scythians). Medes (and Scythians) were Iranic Indo-Europeans that were in turn closely related to other Indo-European races, like ancient North European Slavic and Germanic races.
There is no such thing as a Dutch, English, Egyptian, Syrian, or Kurdish gene.
It's all about an arrangement of the haplogroups. I think that the ancient Iranic folks belonged to the next haplogroups: J2, I2, R1, R2 and maybe G & T!
Our language is Iranic, our native religion (Yezidism) is Iranic, our culture is Iranic (with some Caucasian elements in it though), everything about us is Iranic. Not Iranian (as nation), but Iranic (as an Indo-European ethnicity).
LOL, you're truly a very confused fella.
Are you a 'moron', or you act like one? Adygai (Circassian) folks? Who the f*ck are these Adygay folks! There're 40 million Kurds and do you really think that these 40 million Kurds are descendants of only 3.5 million Adygai (Circassians) folks? Most of them (2 million) are assimilated into a Turkish culture. I think that only the Hurrian ancestors of the Kurds were related to the Adygay.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adyghe_people
First of all learn to manner yourself. I did not expect from you to have enough knowledge to know, that the West Asian component exactly peaks were the Maykop-Culture was.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/IE5500BPde.png
I did not said it is ONLY Adygai. I said it peaks in Adygai but is also strong in North Anatolia and Georgia.
You like it or not, Kurds are descendants of the ancient Medes (and Scythians). Medes (and Scythians) were Iranic Indo-Europeans that were in turn closely related to other Indo-European races, like North European Slavic and Germanic races.
Funny that you mention it. About the Medes, the more scientist search about them, the more they find out that a Folk called Medes never existed but Mede was more like a title used as synonym for Priester and religious Leaders. The so called "Medes" were most probably a wave of different Aryan nomad Groups which united under a confederation. Scythians and Cimmerians were also referred as Medes. So you could be a Mede and Scythians at the same time. A homgenous folk called Medes never existed. A Median (Priest Cast) confederation did exist.
There is no such thing as a Dutch, English, Egyptian, Syrian, or Kurdish gene.
Do you really want me to get you serious? Were did I wrote that East European is a "Russian" gene? It is strongest in Russia and the Baltic States but when this Gene evolved there was no Nation called Russians. The Same with Adygai.
It's all about an arrangement of the haplogroups. I think that the ancient Iranic folks belonged to the next haplogroups: J2, I2, R1, R2 and maybe G!
Good for you now stop wasting my time.
First of all learn to manner yourself. I did not expect from you to have enough knowledge to know, that the West Asian component exactly peaks were the Maykop-Culture was.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/IE5500BPde.png
I did not said it is ONLY Adygai. I said it peaks in Adygai but is also strong in North Anatolia and Georgia. Ok, I'm sorry for the insult.
This is exactly what I'm telling you. Maykop culture was an Indo-European culture. West Asian haplogroup J2 was since the ancient times part of the proto-Indo-European DNA.
That's true, proto Indo-Europeans were West Asian folks from South Caucasus that migrated into northern Europe through Caucasus and Russia. Iranic proto-Kurds were West Asian too and native to the Indo-European 'Urheimat'.
West Asian J2 haplogroup in Kurds is not only a Caucasian haplogroup but also an Iranic (Indo-European) one! Proto-Hurrians and proto-Indo-Europeans shared the same J2 ancestors.
Ok, I'm sorry for the insult.
This is exactly what I'm telling you. Maykop culture was an Indo-European culture. West Asian haplogroup J2 was since the ancient times part of the proto-Indo-European DNA.
That's true, proto Indo-Europeans were West Asian folks from South Caucasus that migrated into northern Europe through Caucasus and Russia. Iranic proto-Kurds were West Asian too and native to the Indo-European 'Urheimat'.
West Asian J2 haplogroup in Kurds is not only a Caucasian haplogroup but also an Iranic (Indo-European) one! Proto-Hurrians and proto-Indo-Europeans shared the same J2 ancestors.
I had never such a claim like PIE were North Europeans but you have to differ between the different waves and Groups of Indo Europeans.
Look.
the "North European" gene came most probably when the Iranic tribes which evolved from the Andronovo culture, which was a secession of the Yamna Culture. The Yamna culture itself evolved as a cross between the PIE European Maykop culture and native European hunters and gatherers. The Kurgan culture was based on Maykop culture thats why the Kurgans are also sometimes reffered as Maykop culture.
So when this Kurgan culture, which was based on Maykop and native hunters and gatherers expanded to the East and formed the Andronovo culture, the Aryan(Indo Iranic) tribes evolved. Those Aryan tribes belonged mainly to the West Asian and North European components. Those Aryan tribes mixed with the native Populations of the Regions they moved to. in Kurdish case it was the Gutians/Phrygians/Hurrians for example. Thats why you find among Kurds more North European component than among non partly Iranic tribes(and even Iranians). And thats why you find much more often Kurds than Armenians, Lebanese or Assyrians which look like this.
http://www.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/dfg441uompsb7ht.jpg (http://www.fotos-hochladen.net)http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/7092/kurdi.th.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/685/kurdi.jpg/)
You can find Armenians or Assyrians ( as well Kurds) which look like the more stereotypical Mediterranean People, like Cretans for example, but you will have hard time to find Armenians (the Russian mixed Armenians excluded) which look like this.
The Iranic ancestors of Kurds brought a native North European gene with them which can not be denied and is seen in all studies.
This is my relative.
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/3220/rizik.jpg
Maybe more than 75% of all my relatives have such a look (with light hair). Some of them look like they're from Poland! And we are all (Iranic) Kurds...
Goga your relative looks like a cross between a Georgian and Polish.
I did not said Iranic tribes looked like Poles :)
The Andronovo culture and Aryan tribes were also a mix between West Asian pastors and North European hunters and gatherers (Russian, Baltic). So your Cousin looks most probably more original Scythian/Iranic than usual Poles or Russians.
Many of my very close (blood) relatives have also RED hair.
I don't know to what haplogroup I do belong and I don't care (because I know where I'm from and who my parents are), but I think that most of us are J2 and R2 folks.
According to Dienekes R2 is a Central or South Asian component. Does this person look like he's from North India?
ok now we gonna start like the spanish, are spanish blond, brown or black hair.
Many of my very close (blood) relatives have also RED hair.
I don't know to what haplogroup I do belong and I don't care (because I know where I'm from and who my parents are), but I think that most of us are J2 and R2 folks.
According to Dienekes R2 is a Central or South Asian component. Does this person look like he's from North India?
No thats not true. Only yezidi Kurds from Georgia are but thats due founder effect. Are you Kurd from Georgia? The Haplogroup R2 is very young and no one really knows where it developed. However most speculate Central Asia.
R2 is not absent in West Asia and Europe. It is found in moderate frequency among Chechens and Ossetians too. Also in Jews, East Europeans and Greeks it is present.
ok now we gonna start like the spanish, are spanish blond, brown or black hair.
Spaniards are mainly dark brown/Black haired but also have lighter versions.
Spaniards are mainly dark brown haired but also have lighter versions.
:laughing:
No I am talking about a thread of an Inner Spanish debate about the colours of hair,
refering do not start the same if blonds are 49,5 or 50,05 etc
it will take 1500 posts and will end to something different
:laughing:
it was kind of joke
:laughing:
No I am talking about a thread of an Inner Spanish debate about the colours of hair,
refering do not start the same if blonds are 49,5 or 50,05 etc
it will take 1500 posts and will end to something different
:laughing:
it was kind of joke
Now I understand :laughing:
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