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Goga
09-07-11, 22:17
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.

sparkey
10-07-11, 04:34
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.

I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?

Goga
10-07-11, 05:21
I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?Maybe at the same time when the Western Asian Aryan folks like the Mitanni (Hurrians), Medes were heading to Northern India, some of their Aryan relatives (maybe Hittites or Cimmerians ?) migrated at the same time into Europe?

Goga
10-07-11, 05:52
I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.

iapetoc
10-07-11, 06:06
I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.

we have a known historical migration of Celtic or Baltic,

The Vrygians who moved from Dinaric alps Dardania modern Albania Fyrom and Makedonia to minor Asia and become Phrygian
in fact I believe the ones maciamo names Dorians in his map is the Vrygians the Celtic Briganti
or a baltic tribe,
the came before troy times and the moved 100 years after Temenids return

the Makedonians name the Vrygians Skudra after the Persian Skudet means Scythians in Persian,
(sorry I still search for ID of Vrygians Baltic Germanic or Celtic)
Phrygian Capitol was Gordion in Hebrew Kurds are name like that about,
we know that Gordium was burn 2 times and 1 was Carduch

that I2a could be from phrygian that moved there and as Skudra join Persian empire

Goga
10-07-11, 06:21
With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.

Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!

sparkey
10-07-11, 07:32
With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.

Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!

Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
-I1
-I2a-Disles
-I2a-Din
-I2a-Isles
-I2a*-F
-I2a*-Alps
-I2a-Western
-I2a-M26
-I2-L38
-I2-M223
-I2*-A/B/C
-I2-L416-ADR

And we've got the following in Asia:
-I2*-B
-I2a-Din

...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?

Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf."

Maciamo
10-07-11, 10:23
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.

Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.

Goga
10-07-11, 16:05
Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
-I1
-I2a-Disles
-I2a-Din
-I2a-Isles
-I2a*-F
-I2a*-Alps
-I2a-Western
-I2a-M26
-I2-L38
-I2-M223
-I2*-A/B/C
-I2-L416-ADR

And we've got the following in Asia:
-I2*-B
-I2a-Din

...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?

Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf." Exactly! You can see clearly that the archaic haplgroroup I (m170) migrated into Europe from the Asia Minor.

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5343/spreadofhaplgroupi.jpg


5008

When m170 migrated into Europe it evolved further. I'm not denying it. Where is the ancient m170 and it subclades that continued to exist in Asia? Genocide? Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170. Kurdish I2a didn't mix with other populations in Asia because Kurds have been living isolated in the mountains for millennia!

Goga
10-07-11, 16:19
Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.
Maybe it was a reverse migration, from the South Caucasus into the North? There is more than 10% of haplgroup j2 and only 12% of i2a in Ukraine! Maybe Kurdish ancestors brought I2a to Ukraine, Kurds have a much higher I2a percentage that the Ukrainians (according to your data)!

sparkey
11-07-11, 02:56
Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170.

OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point? L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.

Goga
11-07-11, 04:29
OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point?There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.


L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.

Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…

sparkey
11-07-11, 05:26
There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.

You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.

Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…

No, you're misunderstanding... I wasn't saying that L178 wasn't found in Kurdistan. The I2a in Kurds is I2a-Din or I2a1b1a, which is L147+ (unique to it), L69+ (common with I2a-Disles or I2a1b1*, which is Europe-only), L178+ (also common with I2a-Isles or I2a1b2, which is Europe-only), P37.2+ (also common with I2a1a and I2a1*, which are Europe-only), L460+ (also common with I2a2, which is Europe-only), and L68+ (also common with I2* and I2b, which are mostly Europe-only except for a recent migration of I2*-B from Europe to Asia). That makes the I2a in Kurds at least six SNPs away from I*, all of which have their centers of diversity in Europe. So, I think it's a fair assumption that L147 (the sixth) originated in Europe.

I don't think anybody is suggestion genocide of a haplogroup, either. Normal patterns of geneflow and natural bottlenecks will eliminate certain haplogroups from certain populations. Besides, I don't think we even know where I* originated, considering that it is still completely unobserved. It's entirely possible given current evidence that what came to Europe originally was not I*, but rather IJ. In fact, we might suspect that if we think that Cro-Magnons were the ones bringing Haplogroup I, considering that the estimated time that I and J branched from each other is pre-Cro Magnon, but the TMRCA of both I and J are more recent. Under that scenario, it seems likely that what came to Europe was IJ, and what stayed in Asia was IJ, both of which differentiated themselves, becoming I in Europe and J in Asia.

Goga
11-07-11, 08:55
Ok, thanks. Your arguments make more sense than my arguments. But I'm still not 100% convinced and satisfied about this issue. Maybe that's because of my nature...

Goga
11-07-11, 09:06
Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???

sparkey
11-07-11, 17:19
Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???

There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.

If you're still not convinced, try researching more about the Haplogroup I in Kurds. If I was trying to prove myself wrong here, I would be looking closely at the SNPs and STR variance that has actually been tested among Kurds, to make sure it is really I2a-Din... because if L147- pops up (and it isn't just I2*-B from Armenians or something) it could be worth investigating to see if at least some of the I2a in Kurds predates the L147 SNP.

Goga
11-07-11, 22:04
There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...

sparkey
11-07-11, 22:24
Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...

Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself.

Shetop
11-07-11, 22:28
If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia).

I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?

Goga
11-07-11, 22:50
Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself. "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" : http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2875/ossetians.jpg

5009

Goga
11-07-11, 23:01
Ossetians are more likely J2, G and I with some R* folks. All these haplogroups are subclades of F*. F* is an error marker, that's why there is 41% of F* in South Ossetians. But it's most likely G and I.
Ossetians are Iranic and West Asian folks like Kurds. Ossetian tribes migrated into Europe and not vice versa. And not only Kurds have i2a but also Ossetians and some West Persians in Teheran, so all West Iranic peoples belong to some haplgorup I...

Goga
11-07-11, 23:20
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

sparkey
11-07-11, 23:37
I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?

Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif). I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.

Taranis
11-07-11, 23:38
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).

Goga
11-07-11, 23:40
I've got this from wiki:


"The greatest density of Haplogoup I is to be found in Bosnia and Herzegovina 65% : Bosnia 54%[1], Herzegovina 71%.[1]

Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]

Iran: in Tehran 34%, though in Isfahan only 10%."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup

sparkey
11-07-11, 23:45
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.

Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!

I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.

Goga
11-07-11, 23:47
Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...

Shetop
11-07-11, 23:49
Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif). I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.

I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.

sparkey
11-07-11, 23:57
I've got this from wiki:

I think that Caucasian Haplogroup I is going to tend to be I2*-B, like how Armenians have ~4% Haplogroup I and almost all of it has been I2*-B. I assume that Darginians are similar, but maybe with a founder effect (or mispredicted haplogroups? I don't know the studies).

We've talked a bit about the unusual I2*-B clade before on this forum... consensus was building that it must have spread with the influence of some riverfaring and seafaring people, who could have began migrating as far West as Germany around 2500 years ago.

Goga
12-07-11, 00:00
I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. Kurds are Iranic and Arabs are Semitic. Kurds are NOT Semitic. If someone ever had his doubts, Kurdish DNA 'proofs' that Kurds ain't no Semites. Kurds have very different origin than Arabs.


It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.I believe the early Indo-Europeans had almost only a West Asian component in them. But that's very West Asian-centric.

Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...

sparkey
12-07-11, 00:04
I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.

You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)

Taranis
12-07-11, 00:07
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...

I don't think that Haplogroup E arrived in Europe that early. It (along with J2) was expected by a lot of people to show up in Neolithic samples, but has failed thus far to do so. I think that a strong case can be made that it wasn't there yet.

There's also a linguistic argument to be made. Haplogroup E1b1b appears to be linked with the speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages. As far as we know, there were no Afro-Asiatic languages in Europe before the Phoenicians showed up in Iberia at the start of the 1st millennium BC. Now, if Basque (as well as the poorly-attested Iberian language) give us any idea here, it's more likely that the languages of Neolithic Europe were all ergative-agglutinative languages akin to those in ancient Anatolia and the Caucasus. Also, bear in mind that G2a showed up in Treilles.

Shetop
12-07-11, 00:10
You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)

I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

sparkey
12-07-11, 00:22
I think misprediction is possible.

I wouldn't discount it, I think most of the studies of Kurds have been STR-predictions. Data is probably deficient still for Kurds as a whole. The FTDNA Kurdish DNA Project is currently useless... it has 1 out of 8 members as Haplogroup I, and they're I1, which must be a very recent introduction, if they are Kurdish at all.


If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

It's difficult to figure out I2*-B (still an STR cluster rather than an SNP by the way... I2*-B keeps getting negative on all SNPs that have been tested so far) because it has a gigantic geographic spread for something so young, from Scotland to Iran, and turns up as the dominant Haplogroup I clade in odd places like Crete. At least, we know that its more geographically limited and rarer brother clusters, I2*-A (mine!) and I2*-C, have their centers of diversity in or around Germany.

Goga
12-07-11, 00:23
According to the Croatian scientists:

http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1374/croatianscientists.jpg

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

Goga
12-07-11, 00:32
and

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg


5011

Taranis
12-07-11, 00:40
and

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg


5011

This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.

Goga
12-07-11, 00:43
This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

sparkey
12-07-11, 00:43
and

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8203/croatia2w.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8203/croatia2w.jpg)


5011

They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I? I'm not sure that plays out... the age of Haplogroup I in Croatia (for sure I2a-Din this time, right?) is too young to support it as having been there for so long. Probably, there were other clades there early on, maybe something related to I2b-ADR or I2a1a or even proto-I2a-Din, which got totally displaced and/or replaced by normal genetic drift. Then, I suspect that I2a-Din came in with R1a from the North. And even if I'm wrong about that, and I2a-Din is truly indigenous to Croatia and hasn't moved since the Stone Age, then what that would mean is that it got bottlenecked to basically a single family there at one point, making so it would still have to expand drastically in the region.

Goga
12-07-11, 00:50
They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I?No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

Taranis
12-07-11, 00:59
Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.

Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...

http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm

They appear ridiculously Croatian-biased, however.

sparkey
12-07-11, 01:01
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

OK, so the temporal aspect just isn't represented. Because I think your interpretation there is very possible. If true, that would make modern Haplogroup I in Croatia a back-migration... although, again, we know very little about where I* could have been.

Shetop
12-07-11, 01:03
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.

I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml)

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

sparkey
12-07-11, 01:12
I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml)

Though nobody has written perfect story yet.

Yes, I like Jean Manco's writings. All that taken together should also help understand how R1b missed "I2a2" (now I2a1b).

LeBrok
12-07-11, 04:58
Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...
Lol, you are a great guy. You have points in my book. :)
I enjoy discussion guys, not much time to post though. Good thread!
Regards

Alan
12-07-11, 05:22
Simple to answer. I2a2 as no strong correlation with Groups having R1b*. Only the Kurds but this seems to be not a ancient phenomena but rather due recent mixings of Groups which belong to the ancestors of Kurds.

Alan
12-07-11, 05:25
BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture

This is also simple. The Reason why Western Europe has less of the "West Asian" component is because the "West Europe" component it self is already like a branch of the "West Asian". The closest component to "West Asian" is indeed the "West European"!

LeBrok
12-07-11, 05:43
Great story of I. Thanks Shetop for the find.

Alan
12-07-11, 05:49
I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.

I agree that 25% is probably a bit too high and assume something around 20%. But I dont believe that all of it is misprediction because otherwise why only among Kurds? And this in Nebel and Nasidzes studies?

And even IF than this "mispredicted" Haplogroups have to be at least very similar to I which is almost only found among Kurds. otherwise it wouldn´t only be mispredicted among them.

However I doubt that it is mispredicted. I only think the frequency is a bit to high settled. I assume rather something around 20%

nordicfoyer
18-02-13, 15:43
I've got this from wiki:

Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.

sparkey
18-02-13, 23:24
Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.

The gold standard study for Iranian Y-DNA is now Grugni 2012 (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/07/iranian-y-dna.html), the one that found the IJ sample, and it does not show absurd I levels like that. The weird figures come from Nasidze 2004 (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf), which has some apparently misreported numbers that may reflect a flaw in that study's SNP typing methodology.

Fire Haired
02-07-13, 07:37
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.


according to ancient asyrian records 2,800ybp the cimmerians who came from easterne uropean balck sea where Y DNA I2a1b is most popular invaded Iraq, Syria, and Turkey and conquered much of that area the Cimmerians spoke a Indo Iranein alngauge like modern Kurdish people so Kurds really speak a Cimmerian language and they get their I2a1b from teh Cimmerians it is actulley pretty simple that is also why it is kind of common to see kurdsish ith red hair and other european traits teh cimmerians veven though they lived around teh balc sea and had mainly eastern European i2a1b they where not tah relted to modern people in that area the Cimmerians accroding to Greek and Roman records where light haired and eyed from over 20 remains of other Indo Iraniens in asia and eastern europe from 4,000-2,000ybp they had Y DNA R1a1a and 60% blonde hair and 70 light eyes some also had red hair this is unlike modern I2a1b people around the black sea and the Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistan

Goga
02-07-13, 18:12
according to ancient asyrian records 2,800ybp the cimmerians who came from easterne uropean balck sea where Y DNA I2a1b is most popular invaded Iraq, Syria, and Turkey and conquered much of that area the Cimmerians spoke a Indo Iranein alngauge like modern Kurdish people so Kurds really speak a Cimmerian language and they get their I2a1b from teh Cimmerians it is actulley pretty simple that is also why it is kind of common to see kurdsish ith red hair and other european traits teh cimmerians veven though they lived around teh balc sea and had mainly eastern European i2a1b they where not tah relted to modern people in that area the Cimmerians accroding to Greek and Roman records where light haired and eyed from over 20 remains of other Indo Iraniens in asia and eastern europe from 4,000-2,000ybp they had Y DNA R1a1a and 60% blonde hair and 70 light eyes some also had red hair this is unlike modern I2a1b people around the black sea and the Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistanYeah, maybe you're right and is I2a not native to Kurdistan. But I2a can be from Scytho-Sarmatians to Sea Peoples that defeated the Hittites.

Also Kurds speak an Aryan language close to (or same as) Avestan, language that was spoken by the Zoroastrian Medes. Kurds are direct descendants of the Medes. And Medes were NATIVE to Kurdistan. Kurdish language is currently one of the 'purest' Aryan languages.

According to me URHEIMAN of Iranic race is somewhere between the Kurdish Zagros Mountains and an area South of the Caspian Sea. Later those proto-Iranic peoples migrated into the Steppes via the Central Asia corridor or the Caucasus Mountains.

But I do also believe that there was a BACK migration of some North-West Iranic people from the Steppes into Kurdistan, like Scytho-Sarmatians.

Goga
02-07-13, 21:34
Indo Iraniens where most related to modern northeast europeans like latviens so the Cimmerians probably migrated to eastern europe and inter marrried with native I2a1b then brought it to the mid east and founded kurdistan
No, Latvians have for about 40% of N1c1. Latvians and other East European folks have NOTHING to do with proto-Indo-Iranic race. Because Iranic people have a different branch of R1a and J2a. Iranic race = J2a + R1a-Z93. Latvian people = N1c1 + R1a-Z283. Latvian folks are totally a different race and have nothing to do with Aryans of Avesta. Latvians are partly Mongoloid...

Goga
02-07-13, 21:41
I don’t understand why when people speak (spreading propaganda, lies & nonsense) about North-East Europeans they always seem to forget to mention DOMINANT native y-DNA haplogroup N1c1 in them. Are they ashamed of it? Before Indo-European arrived in Eastern Europe, N1c1 was already native there. Before Indo-Europeans arrived folks in Eastern Europe were like Sami in Lapland.

Fire Haired
03-07-13, 05:58
No, Latvians have for about 40% of N1c1. Latvians and other East European folks have NOTHING to do with proto-Indo-Iranic race. Because Iranic people have a different branch of R1a and J2a. Iranic race = J2a + R1a-Z93. Latvian people = N1c1 + R1a-Z283. Latvian folks are totally a different race and have nothing to do with Aryans of Avesta. Latvians are partly Mongoloid...

i am not talking about Y DNA haplogroups Y DNA is just a direct lineage u can have a german y dna haplogroup but be 99,99999% chinese people get confused and think the hapllogroup is everything the orignal Indo Iranien speakers where a European ethnic group in the north pontic steppe u should not get confused with teh name Iranien modern iran has that name because they got it from those Indo Iraniens who migrated out of russia

it is not true that lativens have nothing to do with Indo Iraniens we have Indo Iranien remains inn west china known as the tarium mummies from 4,000ybp they where a mix of east asian and european but the remains from Adronovo culture in near by south siberia had just about 100% original Indo Iranien blood they had mainly light hair and eyes same with later Indo iranien remains like sythiens in tagar Russia overall their remains had 60% blonde hair and 70% light eyes
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28824-Early-Indo-Iranien-remains-Y-DNA-mtDNA-hair-color-and-eye-color

u only find that high amount of light hair and eyes in Scandinavia, baltic area, and northwest Russia Latvians are Baltic sine Indo iraniens had 70% light eyes and 60% blonde hair some how they are related to people in that area and that includes latviens

we dont know exactly who the first Indo European speakers where they probably lived between 7,000-8,000ybp and we know somewhere it was somewhere in Ukraine, southern Russia, or Caucus mountains by 6,000ybp Indo European cultures like Yamna culture had conquered the entire area of central russia, most of Ukriane, and the north Caucus mountains recently they have begun to release DNA from early Indo Europeans from 6,000ybphttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28818-New-DNA-results-from-early-Pontic-Steppe-Kurgen-people in central Russia they have said two very important things that relate to Indo Iraniens these Indo European remains from 6,000ybp where a European population had the same pale skin genes as modern ones and they had by far mainly brown eyes and they where very unrelated to later Indo Iranians who had mainly light eyes what this means is that Indo Europeans 6,000ybp where a mix of a bunch of different ethnic groups who lived around russia, Ukriane, and Caucus mountains and the Indo Iranians come from just one of those ethnic groups the Indo iranien ancestry not language might orignalley have come from northwest Russia pr Baltic area and all i read when tehy compared early Indo Iranian remains to modern people is their closest modern relatives are northest European including latviens

Goga
03-07-13, 10:46
No, you're wrong.Those mummies are also party Near Eastern.

That means that folks from Near East migrated into the Steppes and mixed with the natives, Sami-like native forager. Europoid/Mongoloid mixed people.

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/11/u7-in-rostov-scythians.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/mtdna-from-late-bronze-age-west-siberia.html

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-b_OUyvAOJfo/UH6mOGV0OII/AAAAAAAAG9U/tP3lG_BxQ20/s640/tangledweb.gif

Goga
03-07-13, 11:02
Read THIS from this (eupedia) site : http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28632-More-evidence-that-the-PIE-R1b-people-originated-in-the-Maykop-culture (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28632-More-evidence-that-the-PIE-R1b-people-originated-in-the-Maykop-culture)

Also

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.htm (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/analysis-of-maikop-crania-kazarnitsky.htm)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/the-maikop-singularity.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/the-maikop-singularity.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/ancient-steppe-populations-hints-of.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/06/ancient-steppe-populations-hints-of.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/origins-of-maykop-phenomenon.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/origins-of-maykop-phenomenon.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/stanislav-grigorievs-ancient-indo.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/05/uruk-migrants-in-caucasus.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-tangled-web-of-humanity.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-tangled-web-of-humanity.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/08/proto-indo-european-homeland-in.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2011/02/common-ancestor-of-indo-european-and.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.be/2011/02/common-ancestor-of-indo-european-and.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/proto-indo-european-and-north-caucasian.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/07/proto-indo-european-and-north-caucasian.html)

http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-indo-european-invasion-of-baltic.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2012/10/the-indo-european-invasion-of-baltic.html)

Goga
03-07-13, 11:18
Also, Airyana Vaeja was absolutely NOT located in Eastern Europe!!!

Fire Haired
04-07-13, 02:58
i have never heard the tarium mummies where part mid eastern and maybe they where but so are pretty much all Europeans my ancestry is on my logo r whatever u call it i am a mix of German British and Norwegian i have red hair like some of those tarium mummies u would never except i had any mid eastern blood but i took a dna test in austomnal dna i do i have much more than most people around northern Europe everyone in Europe except maybe Finnish and sami have at least a little mid eastern and just because the tarium mummies had some means nothing

i know the maykop culture stuff it was a culture that grew out of the mid east and they connect it to proto indo Europeans because they had a indo european kurgen burial and it is 6,000 years old but there was also a 6,000-7,000years old kurgen in poland http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/six-thousand-year-old-elite-corded-ware.htm (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/six-thousand-year-old-elite-corded-ware.html) the kurgen thoery has been what most indo european experts have belived since teh 1950's they all agree that it was cultures liek dnieper donets and srdney srdney in Ukraine that where the first Indo Europeans

they dont say one of those cultures where the very first but they do think those related culture around ukriane 7,000ybp where the very first indo europeans and the reason why maykop had similarities is because rivers connected them to those people in Ukraine and they traded and copied the people in ukriane overall the earliest signs of indo european culture are still found in ukraine i think there is still a chance the culture and language started around caucus mountains and there is alot of evidence

i don't understand u keep trying to connect the mid east sure maykop culture is kind off a mid eastern connection but no matter how u put the people who spread the Indo European language where European ethnic groups around Ukraine and Russia there is no archaeology that supports the idea indo iraniens migrated from the caucus mountains or turkey they actulley came from the more northern steppe people in Russia we can defintley trace indo iraniens starting in russia not any where near the middle east this link explains how they migrated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians and also teh fact that 3,800 year old adronovo culture indo Iranians had mainly blonde hair and light eyes and that 3,400 year old indo iraniens in near by west china had red hair and that an overall of 60% of indo Iranian remains had light hair from 4,000-2,000ybp shows they where definitely European and that maybe they had a little mid eastern blood but definitely not a significant amount because then they would have darker pigmentation

i dont really understand all of these links i dont get wht they have to do with indo Iranians we already pretty much know what cultures and what areas they came from and there is no way indo iranien langauges spread through caucus mountains to iraq to iran then india because how do u explain the sythiens who where a european ethnic group living in central asia and speaking a indo Iranian language and they have traces of indo Iranian culture from siberia migrating towards iran and India and i just want to say when they went to India they did not create the indus valley civlization what it was is indo Iranians from Siberia started to have alot of contact and trade with people around iran and they adopted alot of mid eastern stuff but they still kept the indo Iranian religion and traditions then they eventually migrated towards India and they conquered the indus valley people they even admitted to it in the vedic skrpits and they just made themselves the high rank and put the native people to the lowest rank

Eochaidh
04-07-13, 19:56
Yes, I like Jean Manco's writings.
Jean Manco's new book is due this October. I am looking forward to it.

http://www.amazon.com/Ancestral-Journeys-Peopling-Venturers-Vikings/dp/050005178X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372960229&sr=8-1&keywords=jean+manco

5940

Goga
04-07-13, 20:05
I don't understand why my post is deleted but according to a recent study on DNA in Central Asia there was no such thing as migration from western part of the steppes (North Caucasus) into east part of the steppes (Central Asia) in the ancient times during the Indo-Iranians.

"Afghanistan's EthnicGroups Share a Y-Chromosomal Heritage Structured by Historical Events" :
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

Goga
04-07-13, 20:21
"The prevailing Y-chromosome lineage in Pashtun and Tajik (R1a1a-M17), has the highest observed diversity among populations of the Indus Valley [46]. R1a1a-M17 diversity declines toward the Pontic-Caspian steppe where the mid-Holocene R1a1a7-M458 sublineage is dominant [46]. R1a1a7-M458 was absent in Afghanistan, suggesting that R1a1a-M17 does not support, as previously thought [47], expansions from the Pontic Steppe [3], bringing the Indo-European languages to Central Asia and India."

"Furthermore, BATWING results indicate that the Afghan populations split from Iranians, Indians and East Europeans at about 10.6 kya (95% CI 7,100–15,825), which marks the start of the Neolithic revolution and the establishment of the farming communities."

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0034288)

MOESAN
04-07-13, 21:35
I 'm still trying to swallow down new data -
on the archeological ground, the metal ages in the Eastern caspian region (Turkmenistan, N Afghanistan, Tadjikistan, Uzbekistan show along the mountainous chains a constant interaction between Near-Eastern farmers : cities builders and steppic people - the physical anthropology confirms it (and so, partly, autosomals) -
every scholar (it spites me) seems supporting is own agenda, and someones speak of almost homogenous "mediterranean' people (very unprecise) when others speak of 'proto-nordic' and 'cromangoid' people in steppes:
however, genetics and metrics are not the best elements to resolve a cultural linguistic problem even if they can give some clues sometimes - an anthropological metric survey spoke of the Kazakhstan population evolution bewteen Calcholithic and Mongols times and mentionned the 'cromagnoid' (with some caution of mine) stock as "autochtonous", 'europoid' and estimates that almost regularly along the centuries the mongoloid genes intruded in the region (NE Caspian) already at 'I-E' times, at first mediated by the wives. No surprise, the first mongoloid elements in East Siberia IE settlements took place through the women, the metric confirmed here by mt DNA-
bu the way, A scythian mummy (1: I know, it is scarce, and I have not the localisation) had autosomals close to the current polish or russian autosomals mixture - but a woman mummy show an "asiatic" mt DNA: what signifies "asiatic" here?
I 'm trying to pack some data together on the anthropological side before post about all that (ancient and new surveys or abstracts) - already I can say: things have not been too simple!
here the problem is rather a South Asian ("indian") mt DNa than a 'mongoloid' one. plus: what is of worth is the proportions and datations, when we speak about origins -
good night

Goga
05-07-13, 00:24
i know the maykop culture stuff it was a culture that grew out of the mid east and they connect it to proto indo Europeans because they had a indo european kurgen burial and it is 6,000 years old but there was also a 6,000-7,000years old kurgen in poland http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/six-thousand-year-old-elite-corded-ware.htm (http://polishgenes.blogspot.com/2010/10/six-thousand-year-old-elite-corded-ware.html) the kurgen thoery has been what most indo european experts have belived since teh 1950's they all agree that it was cultures liek dnieper donets and srdney srdney in Ukraine that where the first Indo Europeans"the revised dating for the Maikop culture means that the earliest kurgans occur in the northwestern and southern Caucasus and precede by several centuries those of the Pit-Grave (Yamnaya) cultures of the western Eurasian steppes (cf. Chernykh and Orlovskaya 2004a and b)." http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2013/07/origin-of-early-transcaucasian-culture.html

Goga
05-07-13, 00:33
things have not been too simple!
Oh they are. Just look at the FACTS of today. All speakers of Iranic languages are genetically related to each other. All Slavic speakers are genetically related to each other. Slavic speakers do NOT speak Iranic and they NEVER spoke Iranic. Iranic peoples don't have their language from Slavic people simply because Iranic languages are not related to Slavic population or evolved from Slavic. Also, when Iranic tribes existed there was no such a thing as Slavic tribes. Iranic tribes predate Slavic tribes by thousands of years

MOESAN
05-07-13, 23:18
Oh they are. Just look at the FACTS of today. All speakers of Iranic languages are genetically related to each other. All Slavic speakers are genetically related to each other. Slavic speakers do NOT speak Iranic and they NEVER spoke Iranic. Iranic peoples don't have their language from Slavic people simply because Iranic languages are not related to Slavic population or evolved from Slavic. Also, when Iranic tribes existed there was no such a thing as Slavic tribes. Iranic tribes predate Slavic tribes by thousands of years

concerning kurgan in Poland of "Fair haired" ('kurgan' = "krugell" in breton), it would be very interesting to verify the true datation (carbon 14) - maybe in the abstract mentioned 6000 years old = ? Copper time? I believe in N-Europe calcholithic (beginning of 'copper') was not older than 3000 BC

concerning slavic (and baltic) compared to iranic-indic languages, I find hard to not see some common historic linguistic facts linking these satem languages? linguistic contact or better, linguistic "passing" needed demic contacts (so some crossings) EVEN og these contacts did not create a LEVEL OSMOSE RESULT in genes erasing all differences! believing History is simple is naive, for I think - but it is true we just do not need to make things more complicated than true facts, by blindness of spirit.
I repeat we are obliged to imagine a central position for all typical satem languages at some point of history.
good night

LeBrok
06-07-13, 02:28
Oh they are. Just look at the FACTS of today. All speakers of Iranic languages are genetically related to each other. All Slavic speakers are genetically related to each other. Slavic speakers do NOT speak Iranic and they NEVER spoke Iranic. Iranic peoples don't have their language from Slavic people simply because Iranic languages are not related to Slavic
Most likely they've split 6-10k years ago, but they still belong to same IE language family, same as Latin. Up to 4k years ago they lived close by and influenced each other.
Obviously when Iraniens moved south and conquered vast lands, their DNA got diluted in local nations. Their original DNA runs no more than 10% of local stock today. Their paternal DNA might be higher because they were conquerors, but autosomal is mainly local. When you say that Iranic language people are related to each other, it is because the local population is related to each other. Iranians moved south in territory of old farmers, by this I mean large populations. Therefore from the beginning Iranians were minority there.
Large population replacement is uncommon, unless farmers move in territory of hunter gatherers. It wasn't the case when Iranians moved south.

Englishkin
06-01-14, 04:39
Some would list y hg H as "Elamite", hg I as (presumably the "aristocratic" or militaristic, founding and oftentimes "chastising" element of) "Assyrian" (now seen in the Kurds), J as "Chaldean" (including the "Pelasgian" J2 and other J "civil" elements which had been absorbed into the Assyrian Empire), F as "Lydian" and G as "Syrian"--and ALL those as "Semitic". They might also list as "European (we might say "Eurasian", to include the geographical Asia)": hg MP as "Cimmerian", L as "Median", O as "Sino-Caucasian (with the Caucasian element presumably now extinct)", T as "Greek", and N as "Cappadocian", among potentially others within K. Hgs A through E would be seen as African (with D now only seen in geographical Asia and C in Asia and Australia).

LeBrok
06-01-14, 05:34
Some would list y hg H as "Elamite", hg I as (presumably the "aristocratic" or militaristic, founding and oftentimes "chastising" element of) "Assyrian" (now seen in the Kurds), J as "Chaldean" (including the "Pelasgian" J2 and other J "civil" elements which had been absorbed into the Assyrian Empire), F as "Lydian" and G as "Syrian"--and ALL those as "Semitic". They might also list as "European (we might say "Eurasian", to include the geographical Asia)": hg MP as "Cimmerian", L as "Median", O as "Sino-Caucasian (with the Caucasian element presumably now extinct)", T as "Greek", and N as "Cappadocian", among potentially others within K. Hgs A through E would be seen as African (with D now only seen in geographical Asia and C in Asia and Australia).
I see you love strict compartmentalization of all the know peoples. It was rather an easy case till Neolithic, in some areas till Bronze Age, if we only knew their tribe names. They didn't move around too much and mixed, therefore they were of one single or one very dominant haplogroup. The best known case is European Hunter-Gatherer being exclusively hg I.
In Bronze Age with all the tibal movements and wars in Eurasia this stopped being an accurate description. By Iron age almost all nations were of mixed paternal haplogroups. I believe most names you cited above are of Iron Age peoples, maybe some late bronze. It means they were not of one, or one very dominant haplogroup. A little bit late in time line for it.

Welcome to Eupedia.

adamo
06-01-14, 05:50
In what way is H Elamite? H is only present at interesting frequencies in India, the Dravidians of south-central India have 25-40% H. It is also present in Gypsies/Romani people. The founding fathers of Assyria were not hg I, nor were the Lydians F as small traces of this would be detectable in Tuscany if they were (Etruscans) instead we get J2. G1 has it's highest diversity on the Iranian peninsula just as L does, so you missed that one too. I don't understand how MP is "Cimmerian" how medians were certainly L or how you classify T as Greek. How is N cappadocian. Lol. The only thing you got right is that you said J was Semitic.

Englishkin
06-01-14, 22:07
In what way is H Elamite? H is only present at interesting frequencies in India, the Dravidians of south-central India have 25-40% H. It is also present in Gypsies/Romani people. The founding fathers of Assyria were not hg I, nor were the Lydians F as small traces of this would be detectable in Tuscany if they were (Etruscans) instead we get J2. G1 has it's highest diversity on the Iranian peninsula just as L does, so you missed that one too. I don't understand how MP is "Cimmerian" how medians were certainly L or how you classify T as Greek. How is N cappadocian. Lol. The only thing you got right is that you said J was Semitic.

I see that you like to be self-assured of what you've been spoon fed by others as being right, Adamo. I think time will tell, if we are ever told the truth about what's found by researchers, that the haplogroups' alignments as I've listed them will be seen to be at least close to being correct--but NOT because I mentioned them.

Though, in reality, I was only throwing them out there for discussion--NOT for all the silly, childish "lol" stuff. I'll refrain from "discussing" with you, Adamo. I'll most likely refrain from any further attempt at discussion in general on here, seeing the immature nature of so many who are themselves so insecure that what they only THINK is right is "gospel". There's no ability to find the truth when anyone thinks THEIR truth is all there is. So much for what would be a good site.

adamo
06-01-14, 22:20
It's not "my" truth. You're wrong, simple as that. How is T Greek? It originated in Greece, spread by Greeks? Neither. There are no traces of H among Elamites and they were not founded by men with H. None of your propositions make any sense. Silly childish "lol" stuff; You want to discuss that T is "Greek" or spread by them? Then there's no discussion in a sense XD

adamo
06-01-14, 22:33
The medians came out of what is original westernmost Iran, they would not have been L predominance. G never had presence nor origin nor center of weight on Syria. Highest diversity in Iran and today the highest frequencies are in the Caucasus region. What's your evidence for these claims? What evidence is there that the Lydians were F and the cappadocian a N? Explain it to us.

adamo
06-01-14, 23:54
Had the Lydians been heavily F I would imagine there would be a light F substratum across Tuscany (5-15%) due to the Etruscans, which there isn't. To simply state that the Lydians were F or that the cappadocian Syrians were N without significant scientific proof is ludicrous.

adamo
07-01-14, 16:27
Still waiting for your reply "english skin". So my results are in and my maternal grandfather is a basal I-P37.2 (I2a1*). His branch would subsequently give rise to Sardinia's dominant I-M26 branch and I2a dinaric branch as well. This is odd as he was north-central mainland italian (Pisa region.)

sparkey
07-01-14, 18:06
Still waiting for your reply "english skin". So my results are in and my maternal grandfather is a basal I-P37.2 (I2a1*). His branch would subsequently give rise to Sardinia's dominant I-M26 branch and I2a dinaric branch as well. This is odd as he was north-central mainland italian (Pisa region.)

Do you know which of the haplotype clusters of I2a1* he falls into? Perhaps the "Alpine" cluster? You may be able to find out using Cullen's Predictor (http://members.bex.net/jtcullen515/haplotest.htm), and if not, joining the I2a Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup) should classify him correctly.

adamo
07-01-14, 20:00
According to that thingy there's a 50-60% chance my subclade is I-P37.2* "west", whatever that means.

sparkey
07-01-14, 21:34
According to that thingy there's a 50-60% chance my subclade is I-P37.2* "west", whatever that means.

It means that he's probably L1286+. Cullen's predictor doesn't include the "Alpine" cluster, so it's not clear whether or not he's L233+. Try to find those on the Nordtvedt tree (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) to get an idea. L233+ is more common overall, but more northern biased, whereas the L233- "Alpine" cluster has a known presence in Italy. If you join the I2a Project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/) (if you tested at FTDNA) they should be able to say which cluster he's in exactly.

adamo
08-01-14, 01:00
Thanks for the info! Were would this subclade reach highest frequency?

adamo
08-01-14, 01:49
So basically it's I2a3*.

Anatolian chevalier
10-02-14, 16:15
İts can be Eastern native Anatolian people. Anatolian beylik time kurdistan is exist.

Alan
10-02-14, 21:48
İts can be Eastern native Anatolian people. Anatolian beylik time kurdistan is exist.

But it is found in Kurds. How do you want to proof its "Eastern Anatolian" origin without Kurdistan/Kurds :wary2:

Anyways as I already said this is the traditional definition of Anatolia. "East Anatolia" is in reality Transcaucasus and Mesopotamia.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/aa/AnatolieLimits.jpg