View Full Version : I2a origins in Kurdistan
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?
I doubt it, everything I've read has had Kurdish I2a as being I2a-Din, the same as Balkans-type, which has a very young TMRCA of something like 3000-2500 years ago. Have anything that suggests that Kurdish I2a might be of an older type?Maybe at the same time when the Western Asian Aryan folks like the Mitanni (Hurrians), Medes were heading to Northern India, some of their Aryan relatives (maybe Hittites or Cimmerians ?) migrated at the same time into Europe?
I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.
I2a1b1a-Dinaric subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the ancestor of that subclade is the archaic M170.
we have a known historical migration of Celtic or Baltic,
The Vrygians who moved from Dinaric alps Dardania modern Albania Fyrom and Makedonia to minor Asia and become Phrygian
in fact I believe the ones maciamo names Dorians in his map is the Vrygians the Celtic Briganti
or a baltic tribe,
the came before troy times and the moved 100 years after Temenids return
the Makedonians name the Vrygians Skudra after the Persian Skudet means Scythians in Persian,
(sorry I still search for ID of Vrygians Baltic Germanic or Celtic)
Phrygian Capitol was Gordion in Hebrew Kurds are name like that about,
we know that Gordium was burn 2 times and 1 was Carduch
that I2a could be from phrygian that moved there and as Skudra join Persian empire
With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.
Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!
With all due respect but where do you think the archaic haplogrup I (m170) is from? Exactly, m170 came to Europe through the Asian Minor/Anatolia. By itself the archaic m170 is a Western Asian subclade that evolved from the more archaic haplogroup IJ and migrated into Europe. In Europe m170 subclade evolved into I1.. subclades and some I2.. subclades. m170 that continued to exist in Kurdistan (and maybe in the Balkans) evolved mostly into I2a.. subclade.
Archaic haplogroup m170 is an Asian marker advanced from Haplogroup IJ in West Asia! Kurdish I2a is native to Kurdistan, because there's no other subclade of m170 in Kurdistan so it MUST be native!
Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
-I1
-I2a-Disles
-I2a-Din
-I2a-Isles
-I2a*-F
-I2a*-Alps
-I2a-Western
-I2a-M26
-I2-L38
-I2-M223
-I2*-A/B/C
-I2-L416-ADR
And we've got the following in Asia:
-I2*-B
-I2a-Din
...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?
Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf."
I believe that haplogroup I2a existed from the Balkans to Kurdistan and that because of the Indo-European migration waves from Kurdistan into Europe, people in the Balkans became more I2a people. Kurdish haplogroup I2a is a West Asian haplogroup and native to Kurdistan.
Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.
Hold on... we've got the following Haplogroup I clades in Europe:
-I1
-I2a-Disles
-I2a-Din
-I2a-Isles
-I2a*-F
-I2a*-Alps
-I2a-Western
-I2a-M26
-I2-L38
-I2-M223
-I2*-A/B/C
-I2-L416-ADR
And we've got the following in Asia:
-I2*-B
-I2a-Din
...with only I2a-Din significant among Kurdish populations, and you're suggesting that it's native to Kurdistan? It seems completely obvious with the diversity of I2 in Europe that it originated there, and just a bit of it happened to expand into Asia with the Kurds later on. Don't you agree that the points of greatest diversity are the best candidates for points of origin?
Ken Nordtvedt provides a very good schematic map of the predicted spread of Haplogroup I, and it doesn't involve a particular clade originating in Kurdistan. Go here (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) and look for "Tree and Map for Hg I.pdf." Exactly! You can see clearly that the archaic haplgroroup I (m170) migrated into Europe from the Asia Minor.
http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/5343/spreadofhaplgroupi.jpg
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When m170 migrated into Europe it evolved further. I'm not denying it. Where is the ancient m170 and it subclades that continued to exist in Asia? Genocide? Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170. Kurdish I2a didn't mix with other populations in Asia because Kurds have been living isolated in the mountains for millennia!
Kurds have a lot of R1a, R1b and I2a2 and speak an Indo-European language (Iranian branch). In all likelihood both R1a1a and I2a2 are signs of Indo-European ancestry that brought the language to that region in the first place. R1b was probably already in the region well before that. The R1a1a-I2a2 combination is typical of southern Russia, Ukraine, Belarus and Moldova, a region part of ancient Scythia. The Scythians were pastoral nomadic people and Iranian speakers. The word "Kurd" was an umbrella term to refer to all the pastoral nomadic people of the Iranian origin. So it is easy to infer that Kurdish people originally came from western Scythia, i.e. Eastern Europe. I2a2 just isn't old enough for it to be native to Kurdistan and spreading from there to the Balkans and the Pontic steppes in the Neolithic.
Maybe it was a reverse migration, from the South Caucasus into the North? There is more than 10% of haplgroup j2 and only 12% of i2a in Ukraine! Maybe Kurdish ancestors brought I2a to Ukraine, Kurds have a much higher I2a percentage that the Ukrainians (according to your data)!
Kurdish I2a subclade evolved directly from the L178 and the direct ancestor of L178 subclade is the archaic M170.
OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point? L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.
OK, so L147 evolved from L178, which evolved from M170... what's your point?There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.
L178+ M170- is found in Europe only, as is M170+ L178- (except for I2*-B which also went from Europe to Asia)... therefore, the only reasonable assumption is that I2a-Din originated in Europe, and that if there ever was native Haplogroup I in Asia, it went extinct.You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.
Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…
There're not so much steps in evolution between the archaic haplgroup M170 and the modern I2a of the Kurds. So I believe that the modern I2a is located not so far (in distance) from where the archaic haplogroup M170 lived. And the archaic haplogroup M170 came from Asia Minor. This is a fact.
You're making one big error, subclade L178 also has been found in Kurdistan and not only in Europe! So it is not only an European marker.
Personally I don't believe in the genocide of a haplogroup…
No, you're misunderstanding... I wasn't saying that L178 wasn't found in Kurdistan. The I2a in Kurds is I2a-Din or I2a1b1a, which is L147+ (unique to it), L69+ (common with I2a-Disles or I2a1b1*, which is Europe-only), L178+ (also common with I2a-Isles or I2a1b2, which is Europe-only), P37.2+ (also common with I2a1a and I2a1*, which are Europe-only), L460+ (also common with I2a2, which is Europe-only), and L68+ (also common with I2* and I2b, which are mostly Europe-only except for a recent migration of I2*-B from Europe to Asia). That makes the I2a in Kurds at least six SNPs away from I*, all of which have their centers of diversity in Europe. So, I think it's a fair assumption that L147 (the sixth) originated in Europe.
I don't think anybody is suggestion genocide of a haplogroup, either. Normal patterns of geneflow and natural bottlenecks will eliminate certain haplogroups from certain populations. Besides, I don't think we even know where I* originated, considering that it is still completely unobserved. It's entirely possible given current evidence that what came to Europe originally was not I*, but rather IJ. In fact, we might suspect that if we think that Cro-Magnons were the ones bringing Haplogroup I, considering that the estimated time that I and J branched from each other is pre-Cro Magnon, but the TMRCA of both I and J are more recent. Under that scenario, it seems likely that what came to Europe was IJ, and what stayed in Asia was IJ, both of which differentiated themselves, becoming I in Europe and J in Asia.
Ok, thanks. Your arguments make more sense than my arguments. But I'm still not 100% convinced and satisfied about this issue. Maybe that's because of my nature...
Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???
Btw, who are these I2a-Din folks in Europe???
There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.
If you're still not convinced, try researching more about the Haplogroup I in Kurds. If I was trying to prove myself wrong here, I would be looking closely at the SNPs and STR variance that has actually been tested among Kurds, to make sure it is really I2a-Din... because if L147- pops up (and it isn't just I2*-B from Armenians or something) it could be worth investigating to see if at least some of the I2a in Kurds predates the L147 SNP.
There are a bunch in the "Dinaric" area, especially the Balkans. Bosnia-Herzegovina is something like 50% I2a, almost all of which I assume is I2a-Din.Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...
Is Ossetian I2a Dinaric too? Because Ossetians are Iranic folks too, but is has been thought that some Ossetians (Alan tribes) migrated into Europe and not vice versa...
Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself.
If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia).
I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?
Do you know of any studies of Ossetian Y-DNA? I don't. I doubt they have much Haplogroup I, they're probably more G than anything. If they have Haplogroup I, it could be either I2a-Din (coming the same way as the I2a-Din in Kurds) or I2*-B (coming the same way as I2*-B in Georgia). How yes no has argued that I2a-Din in Kurds could have taken a northern route, meaning that it could have gone right through Ossetia. I'm not sure, myself. "Genetic Evidence Concerning the Origins of South and North Ossetians" : http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/2875/ossetians.jpg
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Ossetians are more likely J2, G and I with some R* folks. All these haplogroups are subclades of F*. F* is an error marker, that's why there is 41% of F* in South Ossetians. But it's most likely G and I.
Ossetians are Iranic and West Asian folks like Kurds. Ossetian tribes migrated into Europe and not vice versa. And not only Kurds have i2a but also Ossetians and some West Persians in Teheran, so all West Iranic peoples belong to some haplgorup I...
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.
Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!
I have similar question - where from comes this information that Kurds have significant frequency of I2a1b1a (I2a2a-Dinaric until couple of days ago)?
Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif). I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.
Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!
Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).
I've got this from wiki:
"The greatest density of Haplogoup I is to be found in Bosnia and Herzegovina 65% : Bosnia 54%[1], Herzegovina 71%.[1]
Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus: Darginians of Dagestan 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7]
Iran: in Tehran 34%, though in Isfahan only 10%."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup
You can't say that I is an European haplogroup, because Indo-European (Iranic) West Asian folks have that marker too.
Haplogroup I overlaps Europe and West Asia and is scattered all over these places!
I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.
Haplogroup I may not be exclusively European, however, it has been home to Europe since at least the Neolithic (Treilles).
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...
Good question... I've been going mostly by what I've heard others say, including Maciamo... he has the Kurds as I2a here (http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif). I've seen papers, such as Nasidze et al and Nebel et al, that show high levels of I among certain Kurdish populations, but don't perform additional SNP tests. FTDNA projects haven't shown significant numbers of Kurds among the I2a-Din folk, but that seems to be because hardly any Kurds are testing on their own. There could be more I2*-B ala Armenians and Georgians in there than we're suspecting.
I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.
I've got this from wiki:
I think that Caucasian Haplogroup I is going to tend to be I2*-B, like how Armenians have ~4% Haplogroup I and almost all of it has been I2*-B. I assume that Darginians are similar, but maybe with a founder effect (or mispredicted haplogroups? I don't know the studies).
We've talked a bit about the unusual I2*-B clade before on this forum... consensus was building that it must have spread with the influence of some riverfaring and seafaring people, who could have began migrating as far West as Germany around 2500 years ago.
I suppose you're right about the distribution, although it is very thin and not very diverse outside of Europe, except maybe with the Kurds and some others. Arabs, for example, have almost no Haplogroup I in their populations. Kurds are Iranic and Arabs are Semitic. Kurds are NOT Semitic. If someone ever had his doubts, Kurdish DNA 'proofs' that Kurds ain't no Semites. Kurds have very different origin than Arabs.
It also seems that it was confined to Europe in the Neolithic, with no evidence to the contrary, so it really would have been "European" then. Haplogroup I has a poor correlation to the early Indo-European migrations IMHO and probably only got caught up in them late in the game. It has a better correlation with something like Cro-Magnon and/or Gravettian cultures that would have produced some of the earliest Europeans. It is probably the oldest extant Y-line in Europe unless something rare like Haplogroup F turns out to be older.I believe the early Indo-Europeans had almost only a West Asian component in them. But that's very West Asian-centric.
Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...
I'm glad you looked into that because I agree with many things you've written in this forum. That thing with Kurds was exception.
I can just say I would bet a lot of money that I2a1b1a among Kurds could be neglected, or equally possible - there is no I2a1b1a there.
You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)
Yes, haplogroup I is maybe the oldest Homo sapien haplogroup in Europe... Or maybe not. Maybe the first Homo sapiesn that migrated into Europe were also not exclusively I folks, but also E and T...
I don't think that Haplogroup E arrived in Europe that early. It (along with J2) was expected by a lot of people to show up in Neolithic samples, but has failed thus far to do so. I think that a strong case can be made that it wasn't there yet.
There's also a linguistic argument to be made. Haplogroup E1b1b appears to be linked with the speakers of the Afro-Asiatic languages. As far as we know, there were no Afro-Asiatic languages in Europe before the Phoenicians showed up in Iberia at the start of the 1st millennium BC. Now, if Basque (as well as the poorly-attested Iberian language) give us any idea here, it's more likely that the languages of Neolithic Europe were all ergative-agglutinative languages akin to those in ancient Anatolia and the Caucasus. Also, bear in mind that G2a showed up in Treilles.
You suspect that it is all I2*-B? Or mispredicted? I2*-B is nearly as young and probably comes from even farther West, so if it turns out to be just us incorrectly guessing it to be I2a-Din when it's actually I2*-B, then not much changes, except we drop some of our ideas about a Slavic or Illyrian input into the Kurds in favor of the same mysterious one as Armenians (possibly seafaring merchants from Crete or something?)
I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.
I think misprediction is possible.
I wouldn't discount it, I think most of the studies of Kurds have been STR-predictions. Data is probably deficient still for Kurds as a whole. The FTDNA Kurdish DNA Project is currently useless... it has 1 out of 8 members as Haplogroup I, and they're I1, which must be a very recent introduction, if they are Kurdish at all.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.
It's difficult to figure out I2*-B (still an STR cluster rather than an SNP by the way... I2*-B keeps getting negative on all SNPs that have been tested so far) because it has a gigantic geographic spread for something so young, from Scotland to Iran, and turns up as the dominant Haplogroup I clade in odd places like Crete. At least, we know that its more geographically limited and rarer brother clusters, I2*-A (mine!) and I2*-C, have their centers of diversity in or around Germany.
According to the Croatian scientists:
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/1374/croatianscientists.jpg
http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
and
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg
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and
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/1707/croatia2.jpg
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This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.
This makes no sense. Especially if you consider the distinction between Haplogroup I1 and I2. And also the various I2 subclades.Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.
Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...
http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
and
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8203/croatia2w.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/8203/croatia2w.jpg)
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They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I? I'm not sure that plays out... the age of Haplogroup I in Croatia (for sure I2a-Din this time, right?) is too young to support it as having been there for so long. Probably, there were other clades there early on, maybe something related to I2b-ADR or I2a1a or even proto-I2a-Din, which got totally displaced and/or replaced by normal genetic drift. Then, I suspect that I2a-Din came in with R1a from the North. And even if I'm wrong about that, and I2a-Din is truly indigenous to Croatia and hasn't moved since the Stone Age, then what that would mean is that it got bottlenecked to basically a single family there at one point, making so it would still have to expand drastically in the region.
They imagine that the other haplogroups came into Croatia and forced out native Haplogroup I?No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.
Why not? Maybe haplogroup I* from West Asia that stayed in the Balkans became I2 and haplogroup I* that migrated into North Europe became I1.
Once again this is according to the Croatian scientists, and not some bloggers and other amateurs...
http://www.cmj.hr/2011/52/3/21674820.htm
They appear ridiculously Croatian-biased, however.
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.
OK, so the temporal aspect just isn't represented. Because I think your interpretation there is very possible. If true, that would make modern Haplogroup I in Croatia a back-migration... although, again, we know very little about where I* could have been.
No, not necesarry. Haplogorup I came to Croatia 25,000 years ago. Maybe some I* folks migrated from Croatia into North Europe before other haplogroups arrived.
I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml)
Though nobody has written perfect story yet.
I think this could be better source for understanding I: The Story of I (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/haplogroupi.shtml)
Though nobody has written perfect story yet.
Yes, I like Jean Manco's writings. All that taken together should also help understand how R1b missed "I2a2" (now I2a1b).
Some people are guilty of being Eurocentric, but I'm a little bit West Asian-centric. But isn't this a part of Homo sapien nature, thinking that you are the centre of the universe...
Lol, you are a great guy. You have points in my book. :)
I enjoy discussion guys, not much time to post though. Good thread!
Regards
Simple to answer. I2a2 as no strong correlation with Groups having R1b*. Only the Kurds but this seems to be not a ancient phenomena but rather due recent mixings of Groups which belong to the ancestors of Kurds.
BTW if R1b originated in the Caucasus and Anatolia and didn't mix with the Danubian populations, western european should have had more western Asian component in their genetic admixture
This is also simple. The Reason why Western Europe has less of the "West Asian" component is because the "West Europe" component it self is already like a branch of the "West Asian". The closest component to "West Asian" is indeed the "West European"!
Great story of I. Thanks Shetop for the find.
I think misprediction is possible.
If not, than some form of I2*, most likely I2*-B, and probably frequency is lower than the one in eupedia data.
Which people should be connected to this SNP, I really don't have an idea.
I agree that 25% is probably a bit too high and assume something around 20%. But I dont believe that all of it is misprediction because otherwise why only among Kurds? And this in Nebel and Nasidzes studies?
And even IF than this "mispredicted" Haplogroups have to be at least very similar to I which is almost only found among Kurds. otherwise it wouldn´t only be mispredicted among them.
However I doubt that it is mispredicted. I only think the frequency is a bit to high settled. I assume rather something around 20%
nordicfoyer
18-02-13, 14:43
I've got this from wiki:
Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.
Nice point Goga, I've also wondered about that 34% in Tehran for some time now. I thought I was the only one.
The gold standard study for Iranian Y-DNA is now Grugni 2012 (http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2012/07/iranian-y-dna.html), the one that found the IJ sample, and it does not show absurd I levels like that. The weird figures come from Nasidze 2004 (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf), which has some apparently misreported numbers that may reflect a flaw in that study's SNP typing methodology.
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