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Fire Haired
24-06-13, 06:54
This is my thoery on the different ethnic groups that lived in Europe before the Indo Europeans invaded 6,000-8,000ybp
I also but Y DNA and hair color and eye color not skin color because they all would have definally had white skin






http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34693&d=1371377577




Dark blue is Nordic hunter gathers and some farmers: Y DNA I1 or pre I1= 90-100%, I2a2=1-10% 50-79% light brown/blonde hair, or over 80%, probably 1-3% red hair or less than 1% the rest brown hair, 75-95% light eyes or 55-75%, the rest brown eyes
Light blue is Uralic speaking Nordic hunter gathers with a little bit of Siberian blood: Y DNA N1c1c= 30-60%, I1 and pre I1= 10-40%, I2a1b= 1-15%
50-79% light brown and blonde hair, 1% red hair or less, the rest Brown, 55-75% light eyes or 75-95% the rest brown

Red is Central European Farmer: Y DNA I2a2= 45-65%, G2a=28-40%, I2a1a=5-15%, I1=1-10% either 20-49% light brown or blonde hair, or 1-19%, 0% red hair the rest Brown, either 35-55% light eyes or 25-35% possible but almost definitely not 55-75% light eyes northern area would have more light hair and eyes because of inter marriage with Nordic hunter gathers
Light red British and Irish Farmers: Y DNA I2a2=65-75%, G2a= 15-30%, I2a1b2=15-25% ??????? Maybe 80-90% brown hair and eyes or 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes but for sure 0% red hair


Dark Green French, western Iberian, and Alps farmers: Y DNA G2a= 60-75%, I2a1a= 20-30%, I2a2=10-20% ??????? Best guess is 50-70% brown hair and eyes possible 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes definitely 0% red hair definitely would have had at least 20% little light hair and eyes
Mild Green Italian and Sicilian farmers: Y DNA G2a=55-65%, I2a2=15-30%, I2a1a=18-30%, E1b V13=1-15%, J2b=1-20%, I1=5-20% almost definitely 70-90% brown hair and eyes defintley some light hair and eyes definitely 0% red hair
Very light Green Sardine, eastern Iberian, and Corsican farmer: I2a1a1 =70-80%, G2a=20-35%, E1b V-13= 5-15%, possible some Y DNA I1 almost definitely 70-100% brown hair and eyes and almost definitely at least some light hair and eyes for sure 0% red hair


Dark Yellow eastern European farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=75-95%, G2a=8-20%, E1b V13=1-10%,J2b=1-10%,R1b1b=1-4%,R1a1a=1-20%, I1=1-5% almost definitely 35-55% light brown and blonde hair, 0% red hair possible some, the rest brown hair, definitely over 40-55% light eyes the rest brown
Lightish Yellow central and south Greek and Aegean sea farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=30-50%, G2a=45-60%, E1b V13=5-35%, R1b1b= 1-10%, J2b= 1-15%, I1=8-20%
almost definitely 60-80% brown hair and eyes definitely at less light hair and eyes because of inter marrige with mid easterns more than rest of east Europe definitely 0% red hair



I based my theory on the Y DNA of people in Europe today i took out all Indo European R1a and R1b which takes up 50% of European Y DNA I also took out all recent mid eastern and North African Y DNA J1,J2,E1b1b, and T all of these came mainly in Greco Roman timeshttp://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European


It has pretty much been completely proven the R1b L11 Indo Europeans who spoke Proto Italo Celtic and Proto Germanichttp://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml is where all red hair in Europe comes from except parts of Scandinavia and the Udmurt people in Volga Russia
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


so that is why i did not give any red hair the R1b L11 Indo Europeans probably had about 20% red hair modern southern Scandinavians have about 5% red hair so they do have alot of Indo European blood but they also have 55-75% blonde hair like Finnish people who have almost no Indo European blood so this means that southern Scandinavians still have mainly pre Indo European blood so the blonde hair color percentages in Europe would basically be the same as today Yugoslavians have about 40% non Indo European Y DNA I2a1b and probably have almost no Indo European blood they also have about 30% blonde hair even though they have over 30% mid eastern Y DNA and blonde hair is very spread out in all of Europe except Greece,Italy, Bulgaria,Spain, and central France which has the highest amount of mid eastern Y DNA E1b1b,J1, and J2 in France the reason why some areas of Europe don't have blonde hair is probably because of inter marriage with middle eastern people the only difference i think in hair color in Europe 6,000-8,000ybp was there was alot less red hair and less dark hair in southern Europe

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-rise-of-bronze-age-society-new.html


The Rise project anticipate subsequently genotyping between 100 and 150 samples for both mitochondrial (complete mtDNA genomes), Y chromosome and autosomal DNA (15,000 informative SNPs). from 5,000-4,000 year old early bronze age remains in mainly Scandinavia but also Germany and Poland the results should be in by at least December 2013 these remains will be of mainly Indo Europeans but some will be pre Indo European they will also get DNA from 7,000-6,000 year old stone age remains from Scandinavia this will put my theory about Pre Indo European Europe to the test


here are some of the resources i used to come up with my Theory
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

zanipolo
24-06-13, 08:06
article on the markers that define eye colour

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/herc2-haplotypes-phylogeny-and.html

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 08:18
article on the markers that define eye colour

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com.au/2013/06/herc2-haplotypes-phylogeny-and.html

i say in the article that the ancestral allele for light eyes is mainly in the mid east and they probably originated there

i read a scientific article that says north Africans, mid easterns, and Palestinian people have the same light skin genes as Europeans and almost at the same rate and one of the European genes for white skin SLC24A5 111 rs146654 alle (A,A)is also found in mid easterns and north Africans but all non European people are suppose to have alleles G,G and when a European and non European have a kid the alles become A,G but mid eastern and north Africans have A,A which means it is not from inter marraige with Europeans

this means European white skin originated in the mid east and there are some naturally white skinned mid easterns and north Africans and people in the caucus mountains have almost no european blood but they have white skin this could mean that Europeans where founded by a group of white skinned people from the mid east and that blue and green eyes might also have originated in the mid east this would mean Europeans have always had white skin and light eyes and that it did not evolve in Europe as an adaption

and i think they need to stop calling those genes that create white skin in Europeans are only European because they are not and they dont always create white skin and there is no way Europe became white only 6,000-12,000ybp honestly i think it is raciest propaganda i have noticed they always say Europeans have ONLY been white for 6,000-12,000 years as if they want to give the idea it is very young.

albanopolis
24-06-13, 12:15
This is my thoery on the different ethnic groups that lived in Europe before the Indo Europeans invaded 6,000-8,000ybp
I also but Y DNA and hair color and eye color not skin color because they all would have definally had white skin






http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34693&d=1371377577




Dark blue is Nordic hunter gathers and some farmers: Y DNA I1 or pre I1= 90-100%, I2a2=1-10% 50-79% light brown/blonde hair, or over 80%, probably 1-3% red hair or less than 1% the rest brown hair, 75-95% light eyes or 55-75%, the rest brown eyes
Light blue is Uralic speaking Nordic hunter gathers with a little bit of Siberian blood: Y DNA N1c1c= 30-60%, I1 and pre I1= 10-40%, I2a1b= 1-15%
50-79% light brown and blonde hair, 1% red hair or less, the rest Brown, 55-75% light eyes or 75-95% the rest brown

Red is Central European Farmer: Y DNA I2a2= 45-65%, G2a=28-40%, I2a1a=5-15%, I1=1-10% either 20-49% light brown or blonde hair, or 1-19%, 0% red hair the rest Brown, either 35-55% light eyes or 25-35% possible but almost definitely not 55-75% light eyes northern area would have more light hair and eyes because of inter marriage with Nordic hunter gathers
Light red British and Irish Farmers: Y DNA I2a2=65-75%, G2a= 15-30%, I2a1b2=15-25% ??????? Maybe 80-90% brown hair and eyes or 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes but for sure 0% red hair


Dark Green French, western Iberian, and Alps farmers: Y DNA G2a= 60-75%, I2a1a= 20-30%, I2a2=10-20% ??????? Best guess is 50-70% brown hair and eyes possible 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes definitely 0% red hair definitely would have had at least 20% little light hair and eyes
Mild Green Italian and Sicilian farmers: Y DNA G2a=55-65%, I2a2=15-30%, I2a1a=18-30%, E1b V13=1-15%, J2b=1-20%, I1=5-20% almost definitely 70-90% brown hair and eyes defintley some light hair and eyes definitely 0% red hair
Very light Green Sardine, eastern Iberian, and Corsican farmer: I2a1a1 =70-80%, G2a=20-35%, E1b V-13= 5-15%, possible some Y DNA I1 almost definitely 70-100% brown hair and eyes and almost definitely at least some light hair and eyes for sure 0% red hair


Dark Yellow eastern European farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=75-95%, G2a=8-20%, E1b V13=1-10%,J2b=1-10%,R1b1b=1-4%,R1a1a=1-20%, I1=1-5% almost definitely 35-55% light brown and blonde hair, 0% red hair possible some, the rest brown hair, definitely over 40-55% light eyes the rest brown
Lightish Yellow central and south Greek and Aegean sea farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=30-50%, G2a=45-60%, E1b V13=5-35%, R1b1b= 1-10%, J2b= 1-15%, I1=8-20%
almost definitely 60-80% brown hair and eyes definitely at less light hair and eyes because of inter marrige with mid easterns more than rest of east Europe definitely 0% red hair



I based my theory on the Y DNA of people in Europe today i took out all Indo European R1a and R1b which takes up 50% of European Y DNA I also took out all recent mid eastern and North African Y DNA J1,J2,E1b1b, and T all of these came mainly in Greco Roman timeshttp://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European


It has pretty much been completely proven the R1b L11 Indo Europeans who spoke Proto Italo Celtic and Proto Germanichttp://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml is where all red hair in Europe comes from except parts of Scandinavia and the Udmurt people in Volga Russia
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


so that is why i did not give any red hair the R1b L11 Indo Europeans probably had about 20% red hair modern southern Scandinavians have about 5% red hair so they do have alot of Indo European blood but they also have 55-75% blonde hair like Finnish people who have almost no Indo European blood so this means that southern Scandinavians still have mainly pre Indo European blood so the blonde hair color percentages in Europe would basically be the same as today Yugoslavians have about 40% non Indo European Y DNA I2a1b and probably have almost no Indo European blood they also have about 30% blonde hair even though they have over 30% mid eastern Y DNA and blonde hair is very spread out in all of Europe except Greece,Italy, Bulgaria,Spain, and central France which has the highest amount of mid eastern Y DNA E1b1b,J1, and J2 in France the reason why some areas of Europe don't have blonde hair is probably because of inter marriage with middle eastern people the only difference i think in hair color in Europe 6,000-8,000ybp was there was alot less red hair and less dark hair in southern Europe

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-rise-of-bronze-age-society-new.html


The Rise project anticipate subsequently genotyping between 100 and 150 samples for both mitochondrial (complete mtDNA genomes), Y chromosome and autosomal DNA (15,000 informative SNPs). from 5,000-4,000 year old early bronze age remains in mainly Scandinavia but also Germany and Poland the results should be in by at least December 2013 these remains will be of mainly Indo Europeans but some will be pre Indo European they will also get DNA from 7,000-6,000 year old stone age remains from Scandinavia this will put my theory about Pre Indo European Europe to the test


here are some of the resources i used to come up with my Theory
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

I believe, in those dark blu areas , in pre indoeuropean Europe, the main haplogroup was H2O in frozen shape.

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 12:20
i dont know what Y DNA H20 in frozen type is there is a soth Indian Y DNA H which is almost only found in south india and surrounding areas never ine urope except in romani gypes who orginalley came from india so if that is what u are saying they almost deifntley had no Y DNA H

albanopolis
24-06-13, 15:49
i dont know what Y DNA H20 in frozen type is there is a soth Indian Y DNA H which is almost only found in south india and surrounding areas never ine urope except in romani gypes who orginalley came from india so if that is what u are saying they almost deifntley had no Y DNA H
You know what frozen H2O is! Its Ice. At the time you are talking about, the blue area had ice, no people.

LeBrok
24-06-13, 16:12
i say in the article that the ancestral allele for light eyes is mainly in the mid east and they probably originated there

i read a scientific article that says north Africans, mid easterns, and Palestinian people have the same light skin genes as Europeans and almost at the same rate and one of the European genes for white skin SLC24A5 111 rs146654 alle (A,A)is also found in mid easterns and north Africans
Very likely inherited from Neanderthals. They had red hair too.

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 22:20
that is actually not true at this time uralic speakers from Siberia migrated to Scandinavia and northeastern Europe Scandinavia was first settled 11,000ybp and modern Scandinavia ancestors where probably the first settlers the sami people 50% mtDNA V their subclade is estimated as 8,000 years old the other 50% is u5b they also have their own subclade which is also predicted to be 8,000 years old Scandinavians ancestors have live din Scandinavia for at least 10,000 years in my opinon and theses people where definably their ancestors

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 22:30
Very likely inherited from Neanderthals. They had red hair too.

i dont think it came from neanderthals because then that would make caucasins like 205 neanderthal red hair is a reccesive gene so u would have to have alot of neanderthal blood to get it and i know there are some people that have crazy ideas that caucasins have alot of neanderthal blood but no it is not true if it was we would notice caucasins have the same basic human skull shape as all other humans that neanderthal did not have

and who knows who the neanderthals really where it is just a bunch of skulls they call the same species who knows if we are not talking about 50 different breds because many so called neanderthal skulls look very very very different from each other if u compare a Caucasian skull to a Negroid skull it would take a little bit to find the differences basically they look extremely similar if u found a fossilized Caucasian and negroid skull it would be very hard to tell the difference but with neaderthals skulls many look extremely different this means there where many different types of neanderthals and they changed over 400,000 years

there is no such thing as the neanderthal look because we all know it is easy to tell the difference from a Caucasian and a negriod from the outside and the skulls happens and skeletons of Negroids and Caucasians are nearly identical but so many neanderthals skull shapes and skeletons are extremely different so on the outside they would have looked very different from each other

all we know is some non modern human 50,000 ybp had a gene for red hair and very pale skin and freckles that is unrelated to the genes Europeans have it does not represent all neanderthals and defintley not the ones all the way in the mid east thousends of years earlier

hope
25-06-13, 12:40
Very likely inherited from Neanderthals. They had red hair too.


Yes, I recall reading [ a few years ago now] about DNA retrieved from remains of two neanderthals. They retrieved part of the gene MC1R [ I think it was] which causes an effect on the hair similar to that seen in red-heads to-day.

Fire Haired
25-06-13, 13:09
Yes, I recall reading [ a few years ago now] about DNA retrieved from remains of two neanderthals. They retrieved part of the gene MC1R [ I think it was] which causes an effect on the hair similar to that seen in red-heads to-day.
but it was a different gene than what is in modern Europeans so it is not from neanderthals

LeBrok
25-06-13, 16:15
but it was a different gene than what is in modern Europeans so it is not from neanderthals
Aren't their few genes, not one, responsible for skin and hair colour?

nordicquarreler
25-06-13, 16:20
Neanderthal gene for red hair is completely different from homo sapien gene mutations.

Fire-haired you're doing better on spelling. If you threw in a couple periods every now and again (or at least some commas) that would be great!

Fire Haired
26-06-13, 05:53
i dont do periods and commas because it would take to long and i think people can still understand me but i guess i will start using them more

zanipolo
28-06-13, 21:32
map of eye colour

ancient blue eyes derived from the Modern Swiss and Austrian populations in Europe

map based on previous post above

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JKcfHEfIdRc/Ucl-P-4Sg2I/AAAAAAAAB_0/c-sm_XErh0I/s1600/eyecolorhtmap.png

MOESAN
29-06-13, 00:23
This is my thoery on the different ethnic groups that lived in Europe before the Indo Europeans invaded 6,000-8,000ybp
I also but Y DNA and hair color and eye color not skin color because they all would have definally had white skin






http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=34693&d=1371377577




Dark blue is Nordic hunter gathers and some farmers: Y DNA I1 or pre I1= 90-100%, I2a2=1-10% 50-79% light brown/blonde hair, or over 80%, probably 1-3% red hair or less than 1% the rest brown hair, 75-95% light eyes or 55-75%, the rest brown eyes
Light blue is Uralic speaking Nordic hunter gathers with a little bit of Siberian blood: Y DNA N1c1c= 30-60%, I1 and pre I1= 10-40%, I2a1b= 1-15%
50-79% light brown and blonde hair, 1% red hair or less, the rest Brown, 55-75% light eyes or 75-95% the rest brown

Red is Central European Farmer: Y DNA I2a2= 45-65%, G2a=28-40%, I2a1a=5-15%, I1=1-10% either 20-49% light brown or blonde hair, or 1-19%, 0% red hair the rest Brown, either 35-55% light eyes or 25-35% possible but almost definitely not 55-75% light eyes northern area would have more light hair and eyes because of inter marriage with Nordic hunter gathers
Light red British and Irish Farmers: Y DNA I2a2=65-75%, G2a= 15-30%, I2a1b2=15-25% ??????? Maybe 80-90% brown hair and eyes or 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes but for sure 0% red hair


Dark Green French, western Iberian, and Alps farmers: Y DNA G2a= 60-75%, I2a1a= 20-30%, I2a2=10-20% ??????? Best guess is 50-70% brown hair and eyes possible 20-49% light hair and 35-55% light eyes definitely 0% red hair definitely would have had at least 20% little light hair and eyes
Mild Green Italian and Sicilian farmers: Y DNA G2a=55-65%, I2a2=15-30%, I2a1a=18-30%, E1b V13=1-15%, J2b=1-20%, I1=5-20% almost definitely 70-90% brown hair and eyes defintley some light hair and eyes definitely 0% red hair
Very light Green Sardine, eastern Iberian, and Corsican farmer: I2a1a1 =70-80%, G2a=20-35%, E1b V-13= 5-15%, possible some Y DNA I1 almost definitely 70-100% brown hair and eyes and almost definitely at least some light hair and eyes for sure 0% red hair


Dark Yellow eastern European farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=75-95%, G2a=8-20%, E1b V13=1-10%,J2b=1-10%,R1b1b=1-4%,R1a1a=1-20%, I1=1-5% almost definitely 35-55% light brown and blonde hair, 0% red hair possible some, the rest brown hair, definitely over 40-55% light eyes the rest brown
Lightish Yellow central and south Greek and Aegean sea farmer: Y DNA I2a1b=30-50%, G2a=45-60%, E1b V13=5-35%, R1b1b= 1-10%, J2b= 1-15%, I1=8-20%
almost definitely 60-80% brown hair and eyes definitely at less light hair and eyes because of inter marrige with mid easterns more than rest of east Europe definitely 0% red hair



I based my theory on the Y DNA of people in Europe today i took out all Indo European R1a and R1b which takes up 50% of European Y DNA I also took out all recent mid eastern and North African Y DNA J1,J2,E1b1b, and T all of these came mainly in Greco Roman timeshttp://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?84121-Rome-spread-Middle-Eastern-and-North-African-Y-DNA-not-Italian-and-European


It has pretty much been completely proven the R1b L11 Indo Europeans who spoke Proto Italo Celtic and Proto Germanichttp://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml is where all red hair in Europe comes from except parts of Scandinavia and the Udmurt people in Volga Russia
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


so that is why i did not give any red hair the R1b L11 Indo Europeans probably had about 20% red hair modern southern Scandinavians have about 5% red hair so they do have alot of Indo European blood but they also have 55-75% blonde hair like Finnish people who have almost no Indo European blood so this means that southern Scandinavians still have mainly pre Indo European blood so the blonde hair color percentages in Europe would basically be the same as today Yugoslavians have about 40% non Indo European Y DNA I2a1b and probably have almost no Indo European blood they also have about 30% blonde hair even though they have over 30% mid eastern Y DNA and blonde hair is very spread out in all of Europe except Greece,Italy, Bulgaria,Spain, and central France which has the highest amount of mid eastern Y DNA E1b1b,J1, and J2 in France the reason why some areas of Europe don't have blonde hair is probably because of inter marriage with middle eastern people the only difference i think in hair color in Europe 6,000-8,000ybp was there was alot less red hair and less dark hair in southern Europe

http://bga101.blogspot.com/2013/05/the-rise-of-bronze-age-society-new.html


The Rise project anticipate subsequently genotyping between 100 and 150 samples for both mitochondrial (complete mtDNA genomes), Y chromosome and autosomal DNA (15,000 informative SNPs). from 5,000-4,000 year old early bronze age remains in mainly Scandinavia but also Germany and Poland the results should be in by at least December 2013 these remains will be of mainly Indo Europeans but some will be pre Indo European they will also get DNA from 7,000-6,000 year old stone age remains from Scandinavia this will put my theory about Pre Indo European Europe to the test


here are some of the resources i used to come up with my Theory
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml

very amazing - you thought of counting only the pre R1a pre R1b population is not stupid but this exercice is very hard I think (the time of arrival of a SNP is not tied to tightly to its age) - and the map ypu piut for eyes colours is not too reliable
good night

MOESAN
29-06-13, 00:31
map of eye colour

ancient blue eyes derived from the Modern Swiss and Austrian populations in Europe

map based on previous post above

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JKcfHEfIdRc/Ucl-P-4Sg2I/AAAAAAAAB_0/c-sm_XErh0I/s1600/eyecolorhtmap.png

very interesting but is not your conclusion a bit hative?
could you please give me the link to the surveys this map is extracted from?
thanks beforehand

zanipolo
29-06-13, 01:43
very interesting but is not your conclusion a bit hative?
could you please give me the link to the surveys this map is extracted from?
thanks beforehand

post #2

based on rs markers

99% accuracy

Fire Haired
29-06-13, 03:19
very amazing - you thought of counting only the pre R1a pre R1b population is not stupid but this exercice is very hard I think (the time of arrival of a SNP is not tied to tightly to its age) - and the map ypu piut for eyes colours is not too reliable
good night

look it up okay i am not just making guess y dna r1b and r1a in europe came form indo europeanbs fact

mid eastern J groups and most north african e1b1b in europe came in greco roman times fact

Y DNA I subclades and g2a where probably about 100% of pre indo european europe y dn fact

if u subtract all y dna that came to europe in last 6,000 years u get my results fact

and i said that over 609% of france and most of spian, south germany and italy would have y dn g2a with minority i2a1a and some e1b1b in spain in germany some i2a2 from 31 y dna samples of farmers in germany, france, spain, and alsp italy 26 out of 31 had g2a 4 had i2a1a1 and one had eb1b v13 in spain fact and thats upports my theories

this in my opinion is very accurate and ancient dna totally backs me up u need to study this subject before u crtize me

also with hair color and eye color the uraalic language in finalnd is about 8,000 years old we have cultures that are most likley uralic ivading north east europe from siberia about 7,000-8,000ybp we have mtdna from them 7,500ybp three had siberia c1 also this culture was in baltic sea area but modern baltic spak a balto language which is indo european but they still have about 30% uralic n1c1 while eastern european near them who where never apart of that culture have no N1c1 so that culture was almost defintley uralic also baltic peoples non indo european, uralic, and mid eastern dna is almost only I1 which is scandnavien and they also have 60% blonde hair and 70% light eyes like scandnaviens so baltic's are in the same family as nordics also since this also means the very light haired and eyed nordic baltic people already completly settled their area 8,000ybp this means they where most liley teh first scandnviens over 10,000ybp and that he people here 6,000-8,000ybp had same light hair eye colors

also we have austomnal dna of farmers in europe they had over 55% med in all diffenrt types of tests modern spainish and italiens are most likley mainly decended of them and their closest modern relatives this means those farmers in spain and italy most likley had mainly dark hair and eyes also according to irish legand the native irish the celts invaded had dark hair and dark eyes so that is what i used also red hair almost defintley comes from indo europeans who invaded western europe i explained it so there would be no red hair also there would probably be less light hair and eyes in central europe in my opinon i was very accurte and now that theyw ill have more y dna hair color and eye color samples in europe from this time remeber this thread because rust me it is probably mainly correct

Matera
06-08-13, 01:04
I am not to much educated in Genetics and things like that, but I Got my DNA tested by family tree DNA I was tested Positive E1b1b1 +E-M35 +E-M78 +E-V13 , Is it possible that hair and skin complexion to get passed down from father to son direct.I think I have asked this question before but What are the possibility's of how my fathers,fathers etc. got to southern Italy. also I joined a Greek DNA project and I found some results similar to my results. Would these results mean any significance in regards to most recent common ancestor. There all +E-V13.

Greek
13 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 12 13 11 29 17 9-9 11 11 25 14 20
Albanian
13 24 13 10 16-18 11 12 12 13 11 30 16 9-9 11 11 25 14 20
Italian
13 25 13 10 16-21 11 12 12 13 11 31 15 9-9 11 11 25 14 20

31 14-16-17-17 9 11 19-21 18 12 16 19 30-35 11 10
30 14-16-17-17 9 11 19-21 17 12 17 20 30-33 11 10
32 14-17-17-18 9 11 19-21 17 13 17 20 30-35 11 10

Thanks.

adamo
06-08-13, 01:26
It seems you have the E-V13+ mutation on the E1b1b y-DNA line. This mutation (E-V13) took place in the southern Balkans (near Albania/Serbia/Greece). It got to you via the Greek colonization of magna Grecia, "greater Greece" (southern Italy). Today, some 25-30% of Greek men are positive for E1b1b, of which the vast majority of it is E-V13+. E-V13 is downstream of E-M78, thus indicating that E-M78 is the father of E-V13. E-M78 reaches its highest frequencies in Libya/Egypt (eastern north-Africa). This is from where an E-M78 man would migrate from Egypt to the Middle East, eventually reaching the Balkans (southeastern Europe) via Anatolia (turkey). Hope this helps.

Tone
06-08-13, 04:20
It has pretty much been completely proven the R1b L11 Indo Europeans who spoke Proto Italo Celtic and Proto Germanichttp://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml is where all red hair in Europe comes from except parts of Scandinavia and the Udmurt people in Volga Russia
http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/origins_of_red_hair.shtml


There is a correlation between L11 and red hair in Western Europe, but I would say that's it far from proven that L11 is the source of red hair.

The Udmurts are arguably the most red haired people on the planet. They have very little r1b. That's a big exception and possibly a big clue.

The simplest explanation is that red hair is the indigenous hair color of Western Europe and it's been buried under wave after wave of invaders from the East and South West. Considering the Udmurts, it could be argued that red hair might even have been the indigenous hair color across all of Northern Europe during the Ice Age until it was pushed to the fringes (both Western and Eastern) by blond haired and dark haired invaders.

Red hair seems to be older than blond hair and it just seems very unlikely it was camped out in the sunny Middle East (with r1b) during the Neolithic. Under that theory. during the Bronze Age, red hair would have invaded Western Europe with r1b, and also wandered East to the Urdmurts but without r1b, and left no trail of red hair from the Middle East to the fringes of Europe. It's much simpler for red hair to have developed over a long period of time in isolation in a cool place with low sunlight, like Northern Europe.

Occam's razor: among competing theories, the one with the fewest assumptions should be favored.

Matera
08-08-13, 00:15
Thanks Adamo. The results I posted, the result that is label Italian is my results, would I be closely related with those other results DNA wise.

polako
10-08-13, 14:32
Indo-Europeans came from Europe and were light pigmented.

MOESAN
19-08-13, 11:27
There is a correlation between L11 and red hair in Western Europe, but I would say that's it far from proven that L11 is the source of red hair.

The Udmurts are arguably the most red haired people on the planet. They have very little r1b. That's a big exception and possibly a big clue.

The simplest explanation is that red hair is the indigenous hair color of Western Europe and it's been buried under wave after wave of invaders from the East and South West. Considering the Udmurts, it could be argued that red hair might even have been the indigenous hair color across all of Northern Europe during the Ice Age until it was pushed to the fringes (both Western and Eastern) by blond haired and dark haired invaders.

Red hair seems to be older than blond hair and it just seems very unlikely it was camped out in the sunny Middle East (with r1b) during the Neolithic. Under that theory. during the Bronze Age, red hair would have invaded Western Europe with r1b, and also wandered East to the Urdmurts but without r1b, and left no trail of red hair from the Middle East to the fringes of Europe. It's much simpler for red hair to have developed over a long period of time in isolation in a cool place with low sunlight, like Northern Europe.

Occam's razor: among competing theories, the one with the fewest assumptions should be favored.

I agree for the most,
but please, let's keep in mind red hair HAS NOTHING TO DO with dark or light hairs: more than a mutation caused rufosity (eryhtrism) so maybe not linked populations could have showed a certain percentage of red hairs, independently one from another – AND YOU CAN BE RED DARK HAIRED OR RED LIGHT HAIRED ( or red mixed) – (it is ridiculous to put on the same map or survey 'red hairs' along with 'blonds', 'browns' or 'blacks – it 's true some old anthropologists did it) – quality # quantity, for I think) – perhaps quite cold climates did that red hairs better survived ( I believe erythrism managed well enough, better yet under wet cloudy weathers than under bright dry cold climate... -
difficult to tell how were the first I-Eans (to determine yet) – what I believe (for now) according to red hairs current distribution (N-W Europe atlantic lands (neo-Celts and Iceland) and isolates (Hessen and South-East Nieder-Sachsen Germany, Tydalen Norway, S-Jutland, alemanic Switzerland, W-S-W Sweden, Wallonia, Udmurts and less but interesting in South, Albania << ? Thracians???) is that a not completely but rather rich ancient Europe for rufosity knew a rarification of red hairs under populational flow(s) from East-South-East, at more than a time, with people bearing more 'B' blood group – but that does not tell us what Y-DNA haplogroups were linked to the actors of this story – I 'm not sure at all red hairs were making the higher percentages in old populations of Europe even at Paleolithical times -
concerning Udmurts, a Volga Finnic-Ugric speaking people, their geographical localization could (or could not: fifty-fifty) could do of them an ancient partially I-Ean people later uralicized by foreign males - (?!?)...
concerning western Europe, it is very possible that ultimatly occidental Y-R1b populations bore a lot of red hairs people: helas it does not tell us if this autosomals peculiarity is due to their original stock of males and females (statistical link even if no direct link between Y-DNA Hgs and rufosity), or if it is due to subjugated females on their way to West...the fact that we find big differences of red hairs distribution among populations showing almost the same percentages of Y-R1b today seems proving that there was no direct link between first Y-R1b populations and red hair, at first sight (I do not see why Y-R1b would have kept their original females in some places when taking foreign females in close other places, but maybe I pass by a hiden detail I miss) – by the way, the regions RICH for Y-R1a ARE POOR FOR RED HAIRS, as a whole, not?...