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Maciamo
25-09-13, 11:54
After E-M81 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29102-New-distribution-map-of-Y-haplogroup-E-M81), here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78)
Click to enlarge

E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.

Yaan
25-09-13, 12:14
After E-M81 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29102-New-distribution-map-of-Y-haplogroup-E-M81), here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78)
Click to enlarge

E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.
Nice, we finally have a map :smile:Thanks Maciamo :good_job:

Angela
25-09-13, 14:51
Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?

PaschalisB
25-09-13, 16:38
Thanks a lot for this map!

Goga
25-09-13, 16:42
Thank you for this very interesting map. Y-DNA hg 'E' is a weird haplogroup! Maybe there's some correlation between this hg and the Mediterranean-admixture? http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Mediterranean-admixture.gif

Fire Haired
25-09-13, 23:39
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78) That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif

Fire Haired
25-09-13, 23:47
About I2a1b in Kurds around 20% of their y DNA that defntley has a eastern European origin. Maybe the Cimmerians are the source they invaded that area of the mid east around 2,600-2,800ybp according to Herodtus they lived around Ukriane and Russia north of the black sea were I2a1b is pretty popular. They also may have been a Indo Iranian tribe like Sycthians and wikpedia says at least ruled by Indo Iranian elit. I know there was already a Indo Iranian migration with Medes there but if u look at Tarim mummies, Andronovo culture, Sycthian y DNa and other random Y DNA from Indo Iranians in central asia during bronze and iron age. 16 had R1a1 and one had C. They spread a ton of R1a1a1b2 Z93 into asia that deifntley was the majority of their Y DNA. So if Cimmerimans were Indo Iranians like Sycthians they would have had probably majority R1a1a1b1 Z93. Also about Indo Iranians I believe their were a distinct ethnic group by blood not just language. there is a huge constancy in mtDNA, Y DNA, hair color, and eye color from Andronovo culture all the way to the last Indo Iranian tribes in central asai in 400ad. U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.

LeBrok
26-09-13, 05:25
Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

Indeed very even dispersal, looks ancient and with European origin. Looks like they were involved in farming from the beginning.

Yaan
26-09-13, 08:14
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78) That was very quick did u make that map in a day. Since 7,000 year old Neolithic farmer from northern Spain had E1b1b V13 it has been in Europe for a pretty long time. I bet it spread with farming but maybe it came earlier I don't know. It doesn't explain though the high amount of E1b1b in central France 10-15% and 15-20%. It does explain though all of the E1b1b in that streak from Romania to Germany and southern Swedan and Norway. But for southeastern Europe there is still about 10% not belonging to E1b1b V13. Its distribution seems pretty similar to Linear potter culture and Rossen from ur migration maps of Europe. But mainly because of Germanic Italo Celtic R1b1a2a1a L11 spread and Balto Slavic R1a1a1b1 Z283 spread that has changed the Y DNA in eastern and western Europe in a major way. Who know what the percentages for any haplogroup would have been before that. And those Indo European groups could have changed how popular E1b1b, I2a, and G2a are in certain areas.http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/late_neolithic_europe.gif
E-V13,G2a and I2a are European groups. Also there is not 10% of non V13 ,E in South East Europe. In South East Europe E-V12 and E-V22 combined are about 1% and E-M123 is 1-2% and the rest is E-V13.

adamo
26-09-13, 11:49
Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.

adamo
26-09-13, 11:55
So basically E-V13 IS European because that particular mutation took place in southeastern Europe, but it's parent just behind it though, E-M78 probably originated somewhere near the Egyptian/Sudan frontier and spread across much of Libya,Egypt, and found in Somalia,Ethiopia regions as well. Then E3b at its most basal is certainly of northeast African origin more or less. Same for G2a; but in this case, it's not EUROPEAN because G2a has a cradle of frequency near Georgia/Turkey/Azerbaijan; leading me to believe it infiltrated Mediterranean Europe from there some 10,000-15,000 years ago during the Neolithic period, although this lineage was not propulsed to a sort of "greatness" as the global spread of the J and E3b frequencies would. G1 though, the Base of G seems to have higher diversity/age in Iran, leading me to believe this is ultimately, where this haplogroup comes from.

Sile
26-09-13, 12:14
these associations neolithic groupings, what do they represent , ?
The founding of the marker or where the marker was in neolithic times.?
If the later, didn't south Yamna have 10% + of T for dagestan on the caspian sea plus another 7% for North ossetian area or am I too late.

Maykop had G2a4...one group headed for the alps and another to greece

What about Lezkins and azeri of the Kura-Araxes 9% L , 8% T, and J

and what is SOPOT?

Yaan
26-09-13, 12:22
Their European SUBCLADES because they originated there. The very basal root of the branch of the HAPLOGROUP E and G are African and more or less west Asian ,respectively.

E-V13 100% European, parent from North East Africa
G2a(the one observed in Europe) 100% European parent from Kavkaz.
I2a 100% European, parent the most European haplogrouop in the wolrd.
Germanic and Celtic R1b 100% European, parent from Anatolia, great parent from Central Asia!
I will fight R1b lies, insults and propaganda to the end.
End of discussion :)

Ike
26-09-13, 14:07
Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.

Yaan
26-09-13, 14:59
Easy man. There is no evidence that E-V13 is European.
Everything suggest so, but until other possibilities are dismissed, it's not appropriate to say that something is 100 % true.
Never easy with brainwashing and propaganda. Man if E-V13 is not European R1b(Germanic and Celtic) is not European.End of story!R1b propaganda would be exposed, crushed and stopped!:good_job:

Ike
26-09-13, 15:18
Well, we should define what being European means. Are we talking about where the mutation occurred or where is the highest distribution.
It's also useful to consider whether some autosomal mutations have made Hg subclades more distant along the vertical line than in horizontal?

Yaan
26-09-13, 15:26
Mutation occuered in Europe and its highest distribution is in Europe. End of story :)

Ike
26-09-13, 15:45
For E-V13? But we have no proof of that, it could have happened anywhere in Africa or Asia.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-RFDBC3MrhRc/TwSONGTqaEI/AAAAAAAAAKA/tx02k-dvLNs/s1600/E_Snp_Phylogeography.jpg

Angela
26-09-13, 16:53
What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.

As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".

You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.

As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.

adamo
26-09-13, 16:58
J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau

Angela
26-09-13, 17:22
J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau


J probably took place near the southern Levantine regions, G on the central Iranian plateau

Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
Chiaroni 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#CITEREFChiaroni2009) proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B) period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.

MOESAN
27-09-13, 21:54
Variance and phylogeny both indicate that y dna "J" originated in the northern near East, perhaps near the Taurus mountains. S

Even Wiki gets this one right. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267

See also, Chiaroni et al.2009
Chiaroni 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J-M267#CITEREFChiaroni2009) proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B) period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey...)

Some clades, agriculturalists, remained, or moved with the Neolithic expansions into Europe, but the herders would have moved south and into more arid areas generally.

The specific clade in Arabia is younger and massively expanded after a founder effect.

Of course, there were then further migrations back north with the Islamic expansions.

See also, Chiaroni et al 2010, http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2987219/

or even the genetics page here at Eupedia.

thanks for interesting links
I' m OK for Y-J story, for I know now
concerning origin of HGs, every SNP is linked to its upstream SNP, and place of origin could say very little, what would count is the place of developpement of the carriers of the SNP and the duration of settlement in situ, in some way ...
sometimes (very often) a new population was born on the association of two (or more) SNPs ad HGs remote one from the other, but concurring by osmosis, selection,and life difficulties to a new population?

Ike
28-09-13, 22:28
What difference does it make where it arose? Y dna "R" clades probably arose in Iran or Central Asia...the "N" clades arose in Siberia...the "G" clades somewhere in the northern near east, as is the case with the "J" clades. For all the claims about y dna "I", who knows if it split from "IJ" in Europe or somewhere nearby in Anatolia.

It makes a lot of difference. If we want to be precise we have to make distinction between the two. That's why we are here. When we are not formal, we can say that all people are brothers.



As for the "E" clades, it seems increasingly clear to me from all the more recent papers, that "E" split from "D" after the first Out of Africa, perhaps in Arabia or even a bit north of it, and then spread out along both sides of the Mediterranean from there, and that may all have happened in the late Mesolithic.

And, for that matter, I wouldn't be at all surprised if really old samples from Europe, actually Mesolithic, and not from Neolithic Hunter Gatherers who moved west very recently, came out carrying ydna "C". What will happen to all of these classifications about who is European then?

Or is it going to be based on the date of entrance into Europe? "E" and "C" might be first then, along with perhaps "I".

If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?



You're all talking about a cultural concept, i.e. "Europe" that had no meaning in ancient times. These kinds of discussions are fruitless.

Of course it had meaning. It wasn't the Celts or Goths that built the pyramids. Hg E is more famous for their contributions in Africa than in Europe.



As for E-V13 in particular, it's clear that it is massively "European" in its distribution, and that some sub clade of it made it all the way into the western Mediterranean with the Neolithic. It's also clear from many papers that the extremely high Balkan frequencies stem from a founder effect and then a large expansion in relatively more recent times. As for where the mutation actually arose I don't know and I don't know whether it ever will be known, and, in my opinion, it's also irrelevant.

It is relevant. Relevant for us to make more detailed DNA tree, resolve historic events, movements of the people, map cultural dispersion, languages, etc.. Relevant for todays E-V13 carriers. I guess they'd be happy to know what their ancestors did throughout the history.

adamo
28-09-13, 23:12
Well everyone knows J2 took place in northern Syria/ southern turkey

adamo
28-09-13, 23:58
Iberia's spread of E3b frequencies is also interesting, with a 33% peak in northwestern Spain's Galicia region. Frequencies are about 15-20% across Portugal. There's another 27% peak in the southeast of Spain. As for hg J, it peaks in southern Spain/Portugal at only 15-18% of male lineages.

Sile
29-09-13, 00:59
If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?
.


according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

LeBrok
29-09-13, 01:28
according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or
Do they say that all the ancestors had to be European with no exceptions?

If you go back 2000 years potentially you could have few thousands of grandparents. What if one or two were from Asia or Africa? I wonder if there even is one European who didn't have ancestors from outside of Europe in last 2000 years.

Sile
29-09-13, 01:35
Do they say that all the ancestors had to be European with no exceptions?

If you go back 2000 years potentially you could have few thousands of grandparents. What if one or two were from Asia or Africa? I wonder if there even is one European who didn't have ancestors from outside of Europe in last 2000 years.

Only Paternal and only one.

so this ONE ( as an example) could be in Europe 3000 years ago and then went to asia and will still be classified 100% European

Fire Haired
29-09-13, 02:16
according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

There is a such thing as being European genetically. In globe13 the only group to originate in Europe is called North Euro and is very popular throughout Europe. Europeans are overall in skin, hair, and eye color are much paler than other Caucasins. I am not saying that palness originated in Europe (origin of Euro palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color))). The Soumi its debatable but I think their ancestors arrived in Scandinavia 9,000-11,000ybp there is a reason why they look no different from French or Germans or whoever its because their related how ever many 1,000's of years ago. You can uselly look at someone and tell if their European or not a reason why their called white people. From what I learned in Geography class Europe was created with borders at the Urals because of physical and cultural differences with people east of the Urals. Europe is apart of the same landmass as Asia there is not some huge line of fire in between the two. Just I don't understand why even though Anatolia is right next to Greece people in Greece group with everyone else in Europe why do the borders almost match up perfectly. I know Greeks have a much higher rate of mid eastern ancestry than other Europeans but I think that came in Greco Roman age. Basically what happened was Greece was settled by Europeans and later inter married with near easterns I think mainly with spread of farming, contact inbetween Neloithic-bronze agem and then Greco Roman age.

Angela
29-09-13, 05:09
according to genetic scholars, being classified as 100% "European" means, your ancestors where more than 2100 years in Europe.

what is Europe...today's boundaries ...to the Urals or

How interesting...perhaps you could provide us with their names and where they teach...Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? And a citation for the publications where they have made such statements?

I see from a subsequent post that you think "Europeanness" is defined by someone's ydna. Where exactly does that leave women? Her father's?

Strange even for men that it's not autosomes at least. So, Chadic speaking people from West Africa who carry an R1b clade (V88) are Europeans? Oh, I forgot...there's that 2,100 year line. Once you cross it you're safe. So, an E-M81 man in France whose first y line ancestor to set foot in France was a Roman soldier in 200 B.C. is European, but another E-M81 man whose first y line ancestor to see foot in France arrived in 721 A.D.isn't European?

Angela
29-09-13, 05:16
There is a such thing as being European genetically. In globe13 the only group to originate in Europe is called North Euro and is very popular throughout Europe. Europeans are overall in skin, hair, and eye color are much paler than other Caucasins. I am not saying that palness originated in Europe (origin of Euro palness (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?92883-Origin-of-European-Paleness(skin-hair-and-eye-color))). The Soumi its debatable but I think their ancestors arrived in Scandinavia 9,000-11,000ybp there is a reason why they look no different from French or Germans or whoever its because their related how ever many 1,000's of years ago. You can uselly look at someone and tell if their European or not a reason why their called white people. From what I learned in Geography class Europe was created with borders at the Urals because of physical and cultural differences with people east of the Urals. Europe is apart of the same landmass as Asia there is not some huge line of fire in between the two. Just I don't understand why even though Anatolia is right next to Greece people in Greece group with everyone else in Europe why do the borders almost match up perfectly. I know Greeks have a much higher rate of mid eastern ancestry than other Europeans but I think that came in Greco Roman age. Basically what happened was Greece was settled by Europeans and later inter married with near easterns I think mainly with spread of farming, contact inbetween Neloithic-bronze agem and then Greco Roman age.

You might want to read what actual genetic scholars propose for the genesis of Europeans.
See: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/09/estimating-admixture-proportions-and.html
It begins with a nice easy graphic.

Actually, the northern European component of which you are so fond, actually contains quite a bit of Asian ancestry. You might also be interested in : http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2013/06/amerindian-like-admixture-in-northern.html

Or,you might find this informative: http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2012/12/efficient-moment-based-inference-of.html
Graphics are good here too.

Fire Haired
29-09-13, 05:36
That mongliod admixture in north Euro only counts for Finland and other Uralic speakers. I get sick of it when they generalize north Europe because technically southern Germans count as north European even though they are as far north as Serbians who they count as south Europeans.

Sile
29-09-13, 05:57
How interesting...perhaps you could provide us with their names and where they teach...Oxford? Harvard? Stanford? And a citation for the publications where they have made such statements?

I see from a subsequent post that you think "Europeanness" is defined by someone's ydna. Where exactly does that leave women? Her father's?

Strange even for men that it's not autosomes at least. So, Chadic speaking people from West Africa who carry an R1b clade (V88) are Europeans? Oh, I forgot...there's that 2,100 year line. Once you cross it you're safe. So, an E-M81 man in France whose first y line ancestor to set foot in France was a Roman soldier in 200 B.C. is European, but another E-M81 man whose first y line ancestor to see foot in France arrived in 721 A.D.isn't European?

I referred to my individual AuDna tests , not the gedmatch, dodecad, eurogenes, etc etc as I care little for these as some sites "manipulate" data to get a test result that suits them.

I asked Doug, for my Paternal line and that's what he stated , I then asked for Maternal as I completed the FMS test after his test and he stated it did not alter anything


- since I am designated 100% European by yourself and I am from the T haplogroup does this 100% mean that for the entirety of the span of 2000 or 2500 years you cover, that my ancestors where in Europe at that time.?

Hard to say ... it's only one ancestor 2100 years ago that had to be T ... so he could be anywhere in Europe, noy necessarily in.

BTW, since the test with you I have had a FMS done via FtDna and also send my results to Genbank and they noted I am no longer a H2 person and will be given a brand new H subclade. Does this have any impact on the previous test you did.?

NO

Doug

So , I specifically asked for T,

EDIT: If these admixture tests from different sources are correct then they should all relatively match each other, but they do not , so clearly a case of what site you want to believe.

LeBrok
29-09-13, 08:27
Only Paternal and only one.

so this ONE ( as an example) could be in Europe 3000 years ago and then went to asia and will still be classified 100% European
Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

LeBrok
29-09-13, 08:31
I referred to my individual AuDna tests , not the gedmatch, dodecad, eurogenes, etc etc as I care little for these as some sites "manipulate" data to get a test result that suits them.

I asked Doug, for my Paternal line and that's what he stated , I then asked for Maternal as I completed the FMS test after his test and he stated it did not alter anything


- since I am designated 100% European by yourself and I am from the T haplogroup does this 100% mean that for the entirety of the span of 2000 or 2500 years you cover, that my ancestors where in Europe at that time.?

Hard to say ... it's only one ancestor 2100 years ago that had to be T ... so he could be anywhere in Europe, noy necessarily in.

BTW, since the test with you I have had a FMS done via FtDna and also send my results to Genbank and they noted I am no longer a H2 person and will be given a brand new H subclade. Does this have any impact on the previous test you did.?

NO

Doug

So , I specifically asked for T,

EDIT: If these admixture tests from different sources are correct then they should all relatively match each other, but they do not , so clearly a case of what site you want to believe.
I'm sorry, you've referred to your individual AuDNA and you didn't care to mention it?!
Again, be more transparent in your posts. we have no idea what is your creation and what Doug actually said in this post. Keep in mind that we are not in your head and can't see clearly what you're thinking at the moment, without clear explanation.

Sile
29-09-13, 09:00
Again, be more transparent in your posts. I have no idea what is your creation and what Doug actually said. Keep in mind that we are not in your head and can't see clearly what you're thinking, and what you mean, without clear explanation.

fix this server then, I can change whats written, I cannot add text between previously written script, I cannot edit, I get logged out in the middle of writing ( i have to try to save, then I cannot re-enter), i cannot save ( it just sits there for hours) and many ore issues

Lets see, I have only 1 shot....
.I am saying , the meaning of being European is based on one's personnel test with testers like Doug and and not based on admixture tests from gedmatch or similar

Sile
29-09-13, 09:01
Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

explain, whats 2%

Sile
29-09-13, 09:15
Oh, now I get it. Only 2% (YDNA) of your all DNA is 100% European. Don't' you think you should be more clear in your statements to avoid misunderstandings?

I think I know what you are referring to.

lets clarify...
if an englishman went to america with the mayflower and his ancestors began in europe 2100 or more years ago, then he is 100% European...the thing about, what about being american is only for native american ( red-indians/eskimos) . I know many american people want to have some association with american and seem to seek historical intermixing with the natives. But this does not apply for BCA testing ( Doug).

If you want this "american" then stick to Gedmatch admixture tests, which change every 6 months because of new members.

for a 100% european , BCA will say someting like

51% tuscan and 49% french
37% spanish and 63% hungarian
etc

there will never be anything outside of a European nation mantioned

kamani
29-09-13, 12:33
I'm not sure that Southern Europeans have ever been pale-white, it wouldn't make sense geographically, even considering all the climate changes.
Europe probably has always had different skin tones from pale-white to light-brown, so who knows how far back E-v13 goes in Europe.
Color is also deceptive, for example a pale-white englishman is 2-ce closer genetically to an olive-skin italian than to a pale-white russian.
Or, a pale-white englishman is roughly 98-times closer genetically to an olive-skin italian than to a pale-white chinese.
There is sheep, there is black sheep, and there is goats..

MOESAN
29-09-13, 13:55
as a whole Galicia shows 22% according to the Maciamo' s compilation - maybe there is a peak in a smaller region of Galicia?
but it is important to separate different clades of Y-E1b1 - I ssupose the northwest african clade is the dominant one in Galicia as in other regions of iberia: north african neolithic or before??? in Italy, the E-M81 is light but seemingly heavier in North cnetral Italy than in South Italy - in Auvergne, according to what I red, a lot of Y-E1b1 would be of this M81 clade: not too recent I think -

Maciamo
29-09-13, 16:52
as a whole Galicia shows 22% according to the Maciamo' s compilation - maybe there is a peak in a smaller region of Galicia?
but it is important to separate different clades of Y-E1b1 - I ssupose the northwest african clade is the dominant one in Galicia as in other regions of iberia: north african neolithic or before??? in Italy, the E-M81 is light but seemingly heavier in North cnetral Italy than in South Italy - in Auvergne, according to what I red, a lot of Y-E1b1 would be of this M81 clade: not too recent I think -

I don't that there is a peak since there have been several studies on Galicia and all got similar results for E1b1b. Besides most of the Galician population is concentrated along the coast.

Shetop
29-09-13, 17:26
As far as I'm concerned, it is a very good map.

LeBrok
29-09-13, 17:55
explain, whats 2%

It is in your riddle:

Only Paternal and only one.

so this ONE ( as an example) could be in Europe 3000 years ago and then went to asia and will still be classified 100% European

Another clue was this:

2% (YDNA)

Ike
29-09-13, 20:40
LoL, this looks like a flea market bargaining. We should probably make a pool: how much of something makes you something?

a) only Y-DNA
b) only Y-DNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
c) both Y-DNA and mDNA plus more than 50 % autosomal
d) at least 90 % autosomal, disregarding Y and mt
e) etc...

p.s. If, like in this case, we're wondering who/what is European, we would first have to define what makes a DNA segment (mt, Y or AS) European.

Angela
29-09-13, 23:15
That mongliod admixture in north Euro only counts for Finland and other Uralic speakers. I get sick of it when they generalize north Europe because technically southern Germans count as north European even though they are as far north as Serbians who they count as south Europeans.

Clearly, you didn't actually read the papers; if you had, you would realize that they are not just talking about Finland and other Uralic speaking peoples. They are, in fact, talking about all Europeans, although the percentages are much higher in northern Europeans.

Angela
30-09-13, 00:11
It makes a lot of difference. If we want to be precise we have to make distinction between the two. That's why we are here. When we are not formal, we can say that all people are brothers.


If we look at the starting point, we are all Africans, geographically. I was the first to ask Yaan what did he mean with "being European". Since being geographically European doesn't really have to have much meaning, it seems more interesting to classify subclades by their cultural influence?


Of course it had meaning. It wasn't the Celts or Goths that built the pyramids. Hg E is more famous for their contributions in Africa than in Europe.



It is relevant. Relevant for us to make more detailed DNA tree, resolve historic events, movements of the people, map cultural dispersion, languages, etc.. Relevant for todays E-V13 carriers. I guess they'd be happy to know what their ancestors did throughout the history.

There is a vast difference between having an academic interest in population genetics and the peopling of Europe, or even an interest in the genetic formation of one's own country or one's own dna, and trying to use uniparental dna and autosomal dna to make sense of it all, on the one hand, and focusing on the location where certain mutations occurred or coalesced because one is trying to ensure that a certain uniparental marker is or is not "African" which, it seems to me, is a substratum to many discussions like this on "anthrofora", on the other hand.

My objection is to the latter.

I also fail to understand why a uniparental marker which accounts for perhaps 2% of one's dna should form the basis for one's "pride" or lack of it in the accomplishments of ancient civilizations. (Not to mention that I am far more focused on my own accomplishments.) There are, without a doubt, ancestors in my family tree who bore many different uniparental markers. I really don't have any emotional attachment to my own particular mt dna or my father's y dna marker. But, to each their own.

(I have no idea as to your own motivations, or lack of them of course. I am speaking in generalities.)

Ike
30-09-13, 03:32
It seems you're alluding on those 'racial supremacy' people, but that is not the case. I just want to get facts straight.
Everyone has it's own cultural legacy. The pride is his, but there is also a responsibility and obligation towards it.

p.s. And claim not what is not yours, or thou shall drink vinegar for all eternity.

Drac II
30-09-13, 07:05
as a whole Galicia shows 22% according to the Maciamo' s compilation - maybe there is a peak in a smaller region of Galicia?
but it is important to separate different clades of Y-E1b1 - I ssupose the northwest african clade is the dominant one in Galicia as in other regions of iberia: north african neolithic or before??? in Italy, the E-M81 is light but seemingly heavier in North cnetral Italy than in South Italy - in Auvergne, according to what I red, a lot of Y-E1b1 would be of this M81 clade: not too recent I think -

Some authors have tried to use this Y-DNA marker for supposedly measuring North African influence in Europe during historical times (the Islamic incursions into Europe during the Middle Ages), but as you can see from the distribution in Spain, France and Italy, it does not corroborate this at all. It actually suggests the opposite: it has little to do with any of these historical events. If it was due to Islamic incursions it should be highest in Andalucia, Extremadura, Sicily, Calabria, Puglia, etc. Yet it is lower in all these places that endured the longest Islamic presence and higher in more northern places that hardly had any.

Sile
30-09-13, 08:00
There is a vast difference between having an academic interest in population genetics and the peopling of Europe, or even an interest in the genetic formation of one's own country or one's own dna, and trying to use uniparental dna and autosomal dna to make sense of it all, on the one hand, and focusing on the location where certain mutations occurred or coalesced because one is trying to ensure that a certain uniparental marker is or is not "African" which, it seems to me, is a substratum to many discussions like this on "anthrofora", on the other hand.

My objection is to the latter.

I also fail to understand why a uniparental marker which accounts for perhaps 2% of one's dna should form the basis for one's "pride" or lack of it in the accomplishments of ancient civilizations. (Not to mention that I am far more focused on my own accomplishments.) There are, without a doubt, ancestors in my family tree who bore many different uniparental markers. I really don't have any emotional attachment to my own particular mt dna or my father's y dna marker. But, to each their own.

(I have no idea as to your own motivations, or lack of them of course. I am speaking in generalities.)

There are basically 2 ways

1- to find an individual on where his/her line first commenced and (BCA test)
2- where one's admixture changes every 6 months based on new members joining. (Gedmatch type of tests)

There are also the "weird" system of getting/using only 5 testers for data for each ethnicity ( dodecad) and using these mimimum testers to claim most European results instead of continuing to gain more testers.
or
The PF ( Ftdna) system where they have a "centre of gravity" system where one is pinpointed to a map of Europe based on ethnic areas...example... for me ....62% Tuscan and 38% Occadian/french....so lets move 38% of the mileage distance from Tuscany towards Britain and mark it...that's the pinpointing.
or
The 23andme system of going back only 500 years

Angela
30-09-13, 17:11
There are basically 2 ways

1- to find an individual on where his/her line first commenced and (BCA test)
2- where one's admixture changes every 6 months based on new members joining. (Gedmatch type of tests)

There are also the "weird" system of getting/using only 5 testers for data for each ethnicity ( dodecad) and using these mimimum testers to claim most European results instead of continuing to gain more testers.
or
The PF ( Ftdna) system where they have a "centre of gravity" system where one is pinpointed to a map of Europe based on ethnic areas...example... for me ....62% Tuscan and 38% Occadian/french....so lets move 38% of the mileage distance from Tuscany towards Britain and mark it...that's the pinpointing.
or
The 23andme system of going back only 500 years

Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it? I really don't understand. I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?

EVERYONE in Europe has ancestors who arrived from somewhere else. EVERYONE. It just depends when they got here. I'm personally not interested in drawing a line in time and saying everyone whose ancestors got here before X date is European, and everyone who arrived later, is not.

For those who are, I would just say that generally human variation is clinal. You can't contain it within political boundaries, or even within geographical boundaries. As the whole series of articles by the Reich group at Harvard shows, the "European" populations were formed by an admixture of a North Eurasian group, with similarities to the ancestors of the Amerindians, and a west Eurasian group probably radiating out of the greater Near East somewhere, some of whom arrived in the Mesolithic, for example, some from the Neolithic, perhaps some from the Bronze Age. All Europeans show admixture from those two groups, albeit in different proportions, and forming some general clines within Europe. That's the way it is. It's not as neat for Europeans as it is for the Han, who form a more distinct pole, or the Yoruba, on the other hand, who form another pole.

As for the "ways" you listed, they are, of course, all flawed.

To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.

The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.

I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.

Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )

That's not to say that I think these tools can't be improved. That's precisely why new populations keep getting added; it's to make them more accurate. Also, this analysis only goes back so far, not as far as the admixture event(s) proposed by the Reich group for example. The clusters are also somewhat ambiguous, and change from run to run because they are experiments done to try to figure out the peopling of West Eurasia. They weren't done for the "consumers".

As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long. :)

Angela
30-09-13, 17:16
There are basically 2 ways

1- to find an individual on where his/her line first commenced and (BCA test)
2- where one's admixture changes every 6 months based on new members joining. (Gedmatch type of tests)

There are also the "weird" system of getting/using only 5 testers for data for each ethnicity ( dodecad) and using these mimimum testers to claim most European results instead of continuing to gain more testers.
or
The PF ( Ftdna) system where they have a "centre of gravity" system where one is pinpointed to a map of Europe based on ethnic areas...example... for me ....62% Tuscan and 38% Occadian/french....so lets move 38% of the mileage distance from Tuscany towards Britain and mark it...that's the pinpointing.
or
The 23andme system of going back only 500 years

Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it? I really don't understand. I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?

EVERYONE in Europe has ancestors who arrived from somewhere else. EVERYONE. It just depends when they got here. I'm personally not interested in drawing a line in time and saying everyone whose ancestors got here before X date is European, and everyone who arrived later, is not.

For those who are, I would just say that generally human variation is clinal. You can't contain it within political boundaries, or even within geographical boundaries. As the whole series of articles by the Reich group at Harvard shows, the "European" populations were formed by an admixture of a North Eurasian group, with similarities to the ancestors of the Amerindians, and a west Eurasian group probably radiating out of the greater Near East somewhere, some of whom arrived in the Mesolithic, for example, some from the Neolithic, perhaps some from the Bronze Age. All Europeans show admixture from those two groups, albeit in different proportions, and forming some general clines within Europe. That's the way it is. It's not as neat for Europeans as it is for the Han, who form a more distinct pole, or the Yoruba, on the other hand, who form another pole.

As for the "ways" you listed, they are, of course, all flawed.

To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.

The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.

I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.

Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )

That's not to say that I think these tools can't be improved. That's precisely why new populations keep getting added; it's to make them more accurate. Also, this analysis only goes back so far, not as far as the admixture event(s) proposed by the Reich group for example. The clusters are also somewhat ambiguous, and change from run to run because they are experiments done to try to figure out the peopling of West Eurasia. They weren't done for the "consumers".

As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long. :)

Sile
01-10-13, 07:58
Sile, are all these "ways" you describe ways to show or prove someone is European? I know something of your ancestry. Of course you're European...why would you doubt it?

I was trying to make the point that you cannot show you are 100% european via gedmatch type of tests.

I know I am 100% european, I have no concerns on this, I am more interested to find the beginning of my line. Nationality does not interest me in genetics. I was told my line was only 3250 years old.

What do you know about my Personnel ancestry??


I can trace most of my ancestors back to the middle of the 16th century, and some even further back...all Italian. I have no doubt that the the vast majority were in Italy for a thousand years, at least, before that. My ancestors tilled this land, built its great architectural wonders, engaged in its commerce, participated in and benefited from the Renaissance, which, in my opinion, defined what it means to be a member of western civilization. I'm Italian, and European. What else could I be?

I can trace mine for 300 years plus via birth, death registers and am only missing from 1600 to 1700 . If I find these then I can continue to 1180

You can find some ancestry via registries here
http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.it/v/Archivio+di+Stato+di+Treviso/Stato+civile+napoleonico/
or other italian areas from this site

I was sent this as part of my line, if I connect I can go back to 1180
http://www.coroparrocchialetassullo.it/dermulo_file/dermulostory/Genealogia/PretH.htm




To base one's identity on one y line in your ancestry, which represents only 2% of your genes, seems rather silly to me, I must say. Just as an example, I carry mt dna U2e. The latest research I've seen said U2 arose in the Middle East after the Out of Africa migration. Much of it went to India, but some headed into Europe. The U2 at Kostenki is tens of thousands of years old. It has been found from Andronovo and other steppe cultures all the way to Basque country, and everywhere in between. So, which do I pick? Am I, for example, supposed to feel like a steppe dwelling pastoralist? I assure you that I don't.


What is this 2% thing you bring up?


The other option is autosomally testing for "admixture", at least admixture on the level where it can be done or accessed through such things as the Dodecad calculators. You seem to have some issues with it, but I think it's a much better option than chasing after one "Y" line to see when your particular mutation hit the shores of Europe.

I, like you, am no fan of the FTDNA analysis. I'm likewise not a fan of Dr. Mcdonald's program. He created both programs, you know, and although he has changed his own algorithm a bit, it is still the same general method.

Of the other calculators available, I personally have the most faith in those done by Dienekes, for the simple reason that the populations, except for his own "Dodecad" members, are all publicly available, and he published his methodology, so anyone can duplicate his analysis on their own, and ensure that it is honestly done, given of course that they have the computer skills that are necessary. (BTW, there are far more than 5 participants in most of those studies; there are many samples available for Tuscans for example. The proof that you don't need all that many samples to get pretty accurate results can be seen from the results for Ashkenazim, for example. You can compare the results based on the Behar samples, and the Dodecad volunteers, and the results are almost identical. Or, take me, for example, my ancestry comes almost entirely from the corridor which runs from Parma to La Spezia. My dodecad results are without exception almost exactly midway between the scores for Bergamo and Toscana. )

You clearly know more than I about admixtures , so check this site and the 3 maps

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/more-on-east-baltic-as-refuge-for.html



As for 23andme, I don't actually think it only goes back 500 years. I think that statement was put out there mainly to cover themselves because at this point it can't be proved exactly how far back it does reach, but that's a different discussion, and this is already way too long. :)

Well ,I read only 500 years, if you say its different then so be it.
They still mark me as 100% european

Angela
01-10-13, 22:24
I was trying to make the point that you cannot show you are 100% european via gedmatch type of tests.

I know I am 100% european, I have no concerns on this, I am more interested to find the beginning of my line. Nationality does not interest me in genetics. I was told my line was only 3250 years old.

What do you know about my Personnel ancestry??

I can trace mine for 300 years plus via birth, death registers and am only missing from 1600 to 1700 . If I find these then I can continue to 1180

You clearly know more than I about admixtures , so check this site and the 3 maps

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/more-on-east-baltic-as-refuge-for.html


I think perhaps we have been misunderstanding one another. I mentioned your ancestry only because you had posted previously here on this site that like me you had taken the time to do some genealogy and knew that your ancestry was deep rooted in Italy, and so, obviously, European for centuries. No offense was meant, I assure you.

I did take a look at the Eurogenes commentary about the latest Skoglund paper, but as it isn't about y dna E, I've taken the liberty of posting my thoughts about it, for whatever they're worth, in the autosomal thread where you were posting.

Alan
02-10-13, 00:13
After E-M81 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29102-New-distribution-map-of-Y-haplogroup-E-M81), here is the map of the E-V13 subclade. The distribution of the two haplogroups don't match at all, except in Iberia. E-V13 is clearly linked to the Thessalian Neolithic and its offshoots, such as the Linear Pottery (LBK) culture. It was also part of the Cardium Pottery Culture, as attested by the 7000-year-old E-V13 sample from Catalonia, which belonged to that culture.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#M78)
Click to enlarge

E-V13 also seems to have spread the Neolithic to the Caucasus, Mesopotamia and Iran, but could have bypassed Syria, where it isn't found, except in Assyria and Kurdistan.

The Kurds have the highest percentage of E-V13 in the Middle East. They also have have high percentages of I2a1b and R1a, which makes me think that they could be descended from the Thracians or a relative tribe from the region of Romania or Bulgaria. Or at least it would mean that a Thracian-related tribe settled in what is now Kurdistan, probably long before the actual Kurds arrived.

Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.

Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.

Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.

It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).


1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-012-0683-y

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wetb8IcdQXg/T-GFtHkqN_I/AAAAAAAAAWo/mIGoPWxKFz4/s400/Musical+language+families.png

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/02/cultural-distance-calculator-part-3.html


Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.

Alan
02-10-13, 00:18
Perhaps those papers that proposed a Mesolithic entrance into Europe for E-V13 were correct. They could then have been one of the earliest groups of converts to Neolithic culture. Based on the origin areas of grains, legumes, and domesticated animals, the Neolithic would still have to originate in Asia Minor.

That's Alawhite territory in Syria that's blank isn't it?

No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze with Sunni, Alawi and Christian minority, the North/Northeast all the way to the Jabal al akrad (Kurds mountain) in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.

Alan
02-10-13, 00:23
U would have to look at Kurds R1a subclades I don't know what Bulgaria has I bet not the indo Iranian R1a1a1b Z93 if all Kurdish R1a is under that like in India then it would not have been from Thracians from modern Bulgaria. Like I sad INdo Iranian mtDNa was unique I have heard u say there is some mtDNa from Indo Iranian invasions of India. The way to know is look at Andronovo culture mtDNa Sycthian mtDNA and u will see a trend and figure out if there is any traces in India and other Indo Iranian speakers.


I know of at least three Kurds who belong to R-z283. I assume the majority of R1a* among Kurds is Z93 but there seems to be z283 too.

Angela
03-10-13, 16:38
No the huge and blank central area is Sunni, the West coast is mostly Alawi and the South is Druze, Sunni, Christian mixed, the North/Northwest all the way to the Kurd Mountain in the Northwestern coast corner is also Kurdish populated territory but they might have not tested the people there yet or Maciamo thought it's not Kurdish populated area, so he made it blank.

I was interested in the central area because it almost looks like there might have been a migration wave, perhaps from the south, that might have diluted E-V13 frequencies. Are there historical or pre-historic migration waves that might explain that?

As you say, it might also just mean that this area was not tested.

The map initially brought to mind the fact that some researchers have postulated the birth of some of these down stream E clades like E-V13 and E-123 in the greater Near East.

This is a map of pre-Neolithic sedentary sites in the northern Fertile Crescent.
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/03/maplev1.png

This is one that shows the first domestication of animals:
http://mathildasanthropologyblog.files.wordpress.com/2008/09/wade_graphic_600.jpg

And this one is for the first domestication of grains:
http://files.abovetopsecret.com/files/img/zy4f354bc5.jpg

Do these fall within that area of higher frequency?

And how would this correlate with the proposed age for E-V13 generally?

MOESAN
05-10-13, 16:28
Or maybe descend of Cimmerians beside Medes ancestry? Since as I mentioned in one of my earlier posts. Cimmerians appeared like an Iranian group which showed strong connections to Thracians. Almost like the bridge between Iranians and Thracians.

Also interestingly according to a study on Eurasian cultures. The Kurds, Bulgarians and Russian appear close.

Cultural Distance Calculator Part 3
Today, I want to present network clusters for cultures to compare them with each other.

It is interesting to note that...
1. Folk music traditions are more determined by the maternal lineages (correlation with mtDNA-haplogroups),
2. "Mother" languages are more determined by the paternal lineages (correlation with Y-Chromosome-haplogroups).
3. Apparently folk stories traditions are more determined by the paternal lineages as well.
4. The resulting culture is a mix of these traditions (+ religious believes + the history).


1. Network based on Folk music traditions (Pamjav et al.): http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs00438-012-0683-y

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Wetb8IcdQXg/T-GFtHkqN_I/AAAAAAAAAWo/mIGoPWxKFz4/s400/Musical+language+families.png

http://kurdishdna.blogspot.de/2013/02/cultural-distance-calculator-part-3.html


Or maybe it's just a more ancient connection between Kurdistan (West Asia) and the Balkans.

Cimmerians? concerning current Kurdistan? I don't know... but it is not stupid at first sight
concerning Europe as a whole, I suppose as Maciamo that the first provider of it was the neolithical wave of agriculturors breeders: the map fits very well with this hypothesis - in some parts, we see it is a bit lighter in regions where Y-G2a is very strong: more cardial origin for these last ones? I think in Tyrol, Switzerland, Corsica, Sardinia, Portugal - difficult to be sure upon small regional samples:
my bet: cardial: very more G2a than E1b-V13 - danubian and LBK: equilibrated enough for G2a and E1b-V13
after : plus some early I-Ean later moves (with more J2, and more central Balkans E1b-V13, all envolved after crossings, and in S-Italy, later Greeks moves - Spain: post-neolithic moves too, with Helladic people, close geographically (and culturally?) to Greeks; helladic is geographic, it could cover proto-Hellenes, pre-Anatolians, I-E Anatolians... and Romans could have taken part also, at low levels, lately
good brain storm all of us; I'm going to have tea, before something else tonight, more doping!

Ike
05-10-13, 18:22
It good to note that some Balkan Roma populations are E-V13.
That is interesting because of old European belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Gypsy) that Gypsies are from Egypt.


http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2010-AMERICAN-JOURNAL-OF-PHYSICAL-ANTHROPOLOGY.pdf

Yaan
05-10-13, 18:28
It good to note that some Balkan Roma populations are E-V13.
That is interesting because of old European belief (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people#Gypsy) that Gypsies are from Egypt.


http://www.poreklo.rs/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/2010-AMERICAN-JOURNAL-OF-PHYSICAL-ANTHROPOLOGY.pdf

Gypsies are not big in E-V13, some have it due to drift. Bulgarians, Serbs,Macedonians and Albanians slept with Gypsy women and majority of the children 99+ were raised as Gypsies. E-V13 has nothing to do with Egypt itself, its father M78 has. Gypsies are mostly H1a the second biggest being I1(a mystery who have sex with them to give it to them, maybe Hungarians and Austrians),I2a, J2a4b and E-V13. Just like between 0.5-2% of the Eastern European have Gypsy H, just like 30-40% of the Gypsies have European I1,I2a and E-V13
Also majority of Gypsies in the Balkan come from Central and West Europe, because they were used as slaves there and the Ottomans treated them better. They are from India, then they went to Iran, then some went to Egypt yes.

Yaan
05-10-13, 18:31
Oh and forget to tell u that in one of the samples where they found E-V13 in Gypsies(they are both small so unreliable) they did not really tested what kind of M78+ but what else it could have been at least partially E-V12 ( indeed Egypt here) or E-V22 :)

Ike
05-10-13, 19:28
Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.

Yaan
05-10-13, 19:50
Article clearly states in the case of Vojvodina it is 4 % of M-123 and 70 % of M-78 (which is represented almost exclusively with E-V13). I don't see how Bulgarians. Serbians or Albanians could have introduced E-V13 into Roma population. The opposite is more logical.
1. E-M78 could be E-V12,E-V13,E-V22 etc
2. Sample is a joke 20-40 people
3. R u crazy E-V13 one of the oldest European groups typical in the Balkan introduced into Bulgarians,Serbs and Albanians by Gypsies
3. The most common group in Gypsies after H, is I1 so Gypsies introduced I1 in Sweden
4. Bulgarians and Serbs were often having sex with Gypsy women and the children were raised as Gypsies, the Gypsies introduced in Bulgarians, Serbs and Albanians only one group and this is H1a, found between 0.1-2%
E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real :embarassed::petrified:

Yaan
05-10-13, 19:51
There is no logic at all in ur thoughts

Ike
05-10-13, 21:19
1. I told you it was E-V13 once, I've repeated it again. Do you even read what other people say? What's that thing about "it could be E-V12". It isn't. Did you read the article?
2. Yes, it's a small sample.
3. Where have you seen E-V13 Bulgarians and Albanians in Vojvodina? The problem is same with Serbians, since Vojvodina has been largely colonized by Serbians in only the last couple of hundred years.
3b. You're talking nonsense now.
4. In Vojvodina? When? Or you're having another theories about where those Gypsies came from?

I've never said that E-V13 was introduced by Gypsies. Where have you seen that?!

Yaan
05-10-13, 22:06
1. Serbs in Voivodina, just like Serbs everywhere in the universe are mostly I2a-Din,E-V13 and R1a(Z280 and M458). One of the biggest Internet celebrities IM is born to father which is 75% Serb and 25% Gypsy( the Gypsy is the great mom) and a Mom 75% Gypsy 25%, he identifies as Gypsy from Serbia(Voivodina) and he is E-V13(coming from Serb great pa).Mystery solved, a lot of Gypsies have I1 and E-V13 from European.Case closed
2. Yes it is ridiculous small
3. There is Albanians and Bulgarians in Voivodina and a lot of them are E-V13
4. Who r u and why r u making such claims? I was speaking in general, the Gypsies in Voivodina live there since 16th century the Serbs and Bulgarians since the early Middle Ages
U stated E-V13 in Bulgarians and Serbs is from Gypsies, this is ridiculous! Case close, no need for me to talk with people like u!
What is ur y and mt DNA? And if u do not know WHY if I may ask(well if u do not have the money, then sorry I understand, but if u r someone that is not tasted because he did not want then it is no point in arguing) , also what is ur nationality??

Ike
05-10-13, 22:33
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.




E-V13 introduced by Gypsy, r u for real :embarassed::petrified:
This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This (http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php/history/early-european-history-first-discrimination/arrival-in-europe) is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen (http://www.cretegazette.com/2006-January/crete-roma.php) on Crete even before 1322. This (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49044000/gif/_49044278_europe_roma_popn.gif) is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)

ukaj
06-10-13, 07:55
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This (http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php/history/early-european-history-first-discrimination/arrival-in-europe) is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen (http://www.cretegazette.com/2006-January/crete-roma.php) on Crete even before 1322. This (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49044000/gif/_49044278_europe_roma_popn.gif) is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)ev-13 a gypsy dna?are you joking me?the only reason why serbs have 27% ev-13 is because when they migrated downwards from behind carpathian mountians they mixed witht he local population,,the highest genetic marker of ev-13 is in albanians an it is far higher than bulgarians an serbs,,This would make ev-13 in balkans before the arrival of 12a2 witch is a eastern eurpean haplogroup..by the way the ev-13 is higher in gheg albanians than tosk,an they dont look anything like kurds,they are very much blue hazel eyes,tall sandy hair,brown hair doesnt seem gypsy looking when most the gypsys came are very dark

ukaj
06-10-13, 08:02
1. You're too fast to put a 'case closed' on a mass of ambiguous data. If you ran this forum, all threads would be closed I guess :)
2. We already said it was small, so why are you continuing this one...
3. Where. Data?
4. How do you know those were E-V13 Bulgarians or Serbs that came to Vojvodina in 16th century. That's an assumption. Why do you think that distribution of E-V13 from where those Serbs and Bulgarians came from was similar 400 years ago to what is today? That's an assumtion. To get 70% of Romas to be E-V13, requires a very great mass of E-V13 Serb/Bulgarian males to be hot for Gypsy girls, while other part not being inerested at all. How do you explain that? That's a lot of factors to coincide to get the results needed.
5. I've never said that. You seem not to read text with enough caution.



This is a brave idea. Interesting that I've never thought about it until you mentioned it. Only thing I'd change is from introduced into distributed.

This (http://romafacts.uni-graz.at/index.php/history/early-european-history-first-discrimination/arrival-in-europe) is a map of Gypsy arrival to Europe (the first mention). They have been seen (http://www.cretegazette.com/2006-January/crete-roma.php) on Crete even before 1322. This (http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/49044000/gif/_49044278_europe_roma_popn.gif) is todays map, and you can compare it with E-V13 map Maciamo uploaded a week ago. Why couldn't we assume they helped the spreading of E-V13 (or maybe even J) across the Europe. What are the evidence of E-V13 DNA in Europe before 800 AD?

I'm Canadian, don't you recognize me? :)
An I halpgroup split from IJ,this is how J halpgroup became alone as with I,1b,12b,12a,i2a1,i2a2<<< is the very last gentic drift,ev-13 was in southeastern balkans way before I2a2 came with slav migration in 6thctry,his is why slavs has such high percent of i2a2 they came in slav migration an mixed with the local population wich must have not been many because the so high percent of i2a2 their,an another thing that stands out is that the serbian language,as no language common with the people of past in thoses reigions bosnia,croatia,serbia nothing,,an albanians do witch would make that the ev-13 was their much early than them all.not to mention ev-13 supposed to be a migration from asia minor between 6000bc an 10,000bc..

Ike
06-10-13, 12:52
@ #68 You obviously didn't read what I said.
@ #69 You obviously didn't check any of that on forum.

albanopolis
18-10-13, 04:48
What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.

Shetop
18-10-13, 09:17
What the map shows is that E-V13 is the only one clearly European clade. The E-V13 in north africa and Iraq is a result of Roman conquest or Greek colonies. It could be said that E-V13 and probably J2b are the earliest Europeans after I.

Indeed, this map made me think about something similar with your assumption.
I agree that maybe we could start hypothesizing about E-V13 and J2b arriving to Eastern Mediterranean from some part of Europe and not the opposite way (Near East to Europe).
My assumption differs from yours in supposed time frame. I would rather connect the expansion of E-V13 and J2b to Eastern Mediterranean with some earlier period. This could be an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

adamo
25-10-13, 20:38
In terms of haplogroup E, only 10% of southern Spanish Andalusian males belong to it. It is found in 5% of Catalan males and isn't present in Basque samples. Sardinians according to this study have only 5%, but Sicilians have a whopping 27% hg E. About 13% of it belongs to any subclade of E-M78. Calabrians also have about 22-23% hg E among them of which the majority tends to fit under E-M78 although another sample found abnormal highs of E-M123 in another Calabrian study. North-central Italians though were found to only have 10%. Poles, Ukrainians, Hungarians and Croatians all have between 5-8% hg E. Greeks and Albanians though have about 25% hg E each. Northern Greeks (Macedonians) have 20% E as well. Turks have about 10-15% hg E whereas Lebanese have about 20%. Georgians have 0% E, but Ashkenazi Jews have 20% and Sephardic Jews have 30%. Iraqis have 10% E. In Africa, E is found among 80% of ethiopia's Oromo people and 45% of Amhara. Almost all of this is E3b. The Khoisan have about 66% E component, about 30% of which is E3a. Bantu peoples have about 83% hg E membership of which 55% is E3a. 98% of Senegalese men belong to hg E of which 81% are E3a. Burkina Faso is a similar story with 99% of them being E of which 70% is sub-Saharan African E3a. 85% of men in Mali also have hg E, but only 20% of it is sub-Saharan African E3a. Tunisians are about 55% hg E of which 52% is E3b. Algerians are about 66% hg E, all is E3b. Saharawish people are 83% hg E oft which 80% is E3b. Southern Moroccan Berbers have 88% hg E membership of which 86% is E3b. North-central Moroccan Berbers have 87% hg E. Morrocan Berbers have no lower than 85% hg E membership, most of it E3b. Moroccan Arabs have slightly lower E3b levels (75%).

MOESAN
25-10-13, 22:51
concerning genuine gypsies of SE Europe, it is to say 'tzigans', I have no big knowledge - but what we know about all these kinds of nomadic people is that their story in Europe varied a bit from family to family or clan to clan - some of the today nomadic folks in Europe are autochtone people throwed on the roads by poverty and lack of help from their own people, without any link with "intouchables" of the Indies (germanic Swiss people, irish "tinkers" ... - it would not be surprising that some of them incorporated small genuine tzygan families - the case is rare but not absent (in today France it occurs and some individuals "Gipsies", "Gitanos", "Roms", "Tzygans" show european atavic traits in their phenotypes; the "knowing-how-to-do" and technical skills of the new "adopted" males could have provided some advantages to the first nomadic folks -
so Y-E1-V13 among Balkans "Gipsies" to name them as you, could very well be the result of long during contacts between nomads and sedentary local people... it could be too a founder effect in some firstable isolated clan? let's keep in mind these Tzygans are the smaller number among numerous populations of Balkans -
for me Y-E-V13 is old enough in Europe, older than the bulk of Y-J2, I think Mesolithic (or the upstream SNP that gave birth to it in a surely small enough population before baby boom) - the most of expansion North the Donau river and around is at first the result of 'danubian' and then 'LBK' expansions - and the most of the expansion in Méditerranea is linked in small proportions to neolithic too, but in big proportions to Greeks colonisation - what does not exclude some small numbers of its bearers at every time in different cultural moves -

adamo
26-10-13, 18:41
What's interesting about E3b in Italy is that it peaks at 24% of men in the Basilicata region. The mystery though, is that only 8% of it is E-V13. Another 8% are E-V22 and 4% each are E-V12 and E-M123; indicating a non-Greek origin for a nice slice of the E3b in that region. The region of Agrigento in southwestern Sicily, once a Greek colony has 22% E3b. 10% of it is E-V13. The other 12% is probably directly of Tunisia or other north-African ancestry. The Benevento region of Campania has about 20% E3b of which 9% is E3b, leaving 11% of the E3b of more exotic probably non-Greek origin. Catanzaro region of Calabria has 19% E3b; 11% is E-V13 (other few rare E subclades may have come along with Greeks.). Surprisingly the Vicenza region of Veneto has 18% E3b, the overwhelming majority of it is the Balkanic E-V13 leading me to believe Greek colonists settled among there. The Genoa region has 16% E3b; all of it E-V13 indicating definite minor Greek colonization of the Ligurian coast. Lecce in Apulia also has 16% E3b; all of it is E-V13 here as well indicating Greek presence. Grosseto/Siena has 15% E3b of which only 5% is E-V13 leading me to believe more ancestral/mysterious origins for most E3b there. L'Aquila in Abruzzo has 14% E3b; all of it Greek E-V13. Molise has 14% E3b of which half is E-V13. Ragusa and Catania have 14-14% of which only 4-5% is E-V13. Macerata has 13% of which 8% is E-V13. Como oddly has 12% all of it E-V13. Treviso and bologna have 10% of which 7% is E-V13. Sardinia is strange. Only 2.5% of men are E3b in the northeast (one E-V13). The central west has 12% E3b of which 10% is E-M123.

albanopolis
28-10-13, 04:42
Italy has absorbed a large jewish community through time, that i why E has a variety of subclades. Ballkans have had small jewish communities that is why the E is homogenious over there.

kamani
28-10-13, 05:45
E-M123 might be the key to understand E-V13, since they probably spread together with the Neolithic Farmers. E-M123* is more common in Iberia, and guess where they found the 7000 year old E-V13, Iberia. A place which makes sense, since early farmers would need mild weather for their primitive agriculture to work.
Here is where E-M123* has been found:
Cruciani et al. (2004) located one individual in Bulgaria after testing 3401 individuals from five continents (of which 116 were Bulgarian), and Underhill et al. (2000) located one individual in Central Asia out of 1062 people tested, including 184 from Central Asia and Siberia.
In a 568 person study in Iberia, Flores et al. (2005) found two E-M123* individuals, both in Northern Portugal out of 109 people tested there.
In a 553 person study of Portugal, Gonçalves et al. (2005) also found two E-M123* individuals in Northern Portugal, out of 101 people, as well as 2 in Madeira out of 129 people tested there.
Flores et al. (2005) found one individual out of 146 Jordanians, this being one of the 101 individuals tested in Amman.

And here is some info on the Iberian neolithic:
In the 6th millennium BC, Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) experiences the arrival of the first agriculturalists. Their origin is uncertain but they arrive with already developed crops (cereals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereals) and legumes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legumes)). The presence of domestic animals instead is unlikely, as only pig (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pig)[disambiguation needed (http://toolserver.org/%7Edispenser/cgi-bin/dab_solver.py?page=Prehistoric_Iberia&editintro=Template:Disambiguation_needed/editintro&client=Template:Dn)] and rabbit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit) remains have been found and these could belong to wild animals. They also consumed large amounts of olives (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olive) but it's uncertain too whether this tree was cultivated or merely harvested in its wild form. Their typical artifact is the La Almagra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Almagra) style pottery, quite variegated.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#cite_note-Jord.C3.A1-4)

The Andalusian Neolithic also influenced other areas, notably Southern Portugal, where, soon after the arrival of agriculture, the first dolmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolmen) tombs begin to be built c. 4800 BC, being possibly the oldest of their kind anywhere.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Iberia#cite_note-Jord.C3.A1-4)
C. 4700 BC Cardium Pottery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery) Neolithic culture (also known as Mediterranean Neolithic) arrives to Eastern Iberia. While some remains of this culture have been found as far west as Portugal, its distribution is basically Mediterranean (Catalonia, Valencian region, Ebro valley, Balearic islands).
The interior and the northern coastal areas remain largely marginal in this process of spread of agriculture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agriculture). In most cases it would only arrive in a very late phase or even already in the Chalcolithic age, together with Megalithism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalith).

adamo
28-10-13, 16:54
That is what is to be deciphered at this point, how much of it is Neolithic, how much of it is Greek and how much of it came with Jews during the Middle Ages.

enzstarr1963
17-05-14, 21:21
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

albanopolis
24-05-14, 02:56
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

Congratulation! Its a tough haplogroup what you are having! To mention just a few people who belonged to the haplogroup, Adolph was one, Napoleon another one and many more troublemakers.
To come to your question how come you belong to it? I will suggest some possibilities:
You could be a descendant of a Jew and you don't know. A quarter of jewish or more belong to that haplogroup.
Or since Romans were around there 2000 years ago you could be the descendant of a Roman soldier.
Or since the E v13 people were among the fist inhabitants of the area before anybody else came you could be a descendant of a Neolithic farmer
Or some Normand of middle ages made it there from the Balkans
There are many possibilities and if you have a temper you know now why :laughing:

Yaan
25-05-14, 18:39
Congratulation! Its a tough haplogroup what you are having! To mention just a few people who belonged to the haplogroup, Adolph was one, Napoleon another one and many more troublemakers.
To come to your question how come you belong to it? I will suggest some possibilities:
You could be a descendant of a Jew and you don't know. A quarter of jewish or more belong to that haplogroup.
Or since Romans were around there 2000 years ago you could be the descendant of a Roman soldier.
Or since the E v13 people were among the fist inhabitants of the area before anybody else came you could be a descendant of a Neolithic farmer
Or some Normand of middle ages made it there from the Balkans
There are many possibilities and if you have a temper you know now why :laughing:


Y r quite wrong about the Jews, they do mnot have this group maybe 0.5-1%!

albanopolis
12-08-14, 16:02
Never easy with brainwashing and propaganda. Man if E-V13 is not European R1b(Germanic and Celtic) is not European.End of story!R1b propaganda would be exposed, crushed and stopped!:good_job:

Why does it matter if E-V13 is European or not? That does not make us less superior or inferior. If I am born in America but my father came there from the Balkans it does not mean I am American Indian. (which are the real Americans) So, E V-13 people of today's Europe are in fact North Africans. But not North Africans like the one we see today, but like the ones 10 000 yrs ago without Arabic, subsaharan or European blood infusions. If we Balkan people look somehow different from North Africans is because of geography and other Asian or European admixtures.
E-V13 people are fundamentally civilization creators. Responsible for farming inventors, housing, navigating, pyramid builders, math, science, military, art, architecture, religion and the list goes on.....

LeBrok
12-08-14, 17:06
Why does it matter if E-V13 is European or not? That does not make us less superior or inferior. If I am born in America but my father came there from the Balkans it does not mean I am American Indian. (which are the real Americans) So, E V-13 people of today's Europe are in fact North Africans. But not North Africans like the one we see today, Ok, but if we use these standards, American Indians are not Americans, they are Asians, perhaps exactly Siberian Asians. I think it really gets confusing.



If we Balkan people look somehow different from North Africans is because of geography and other Asian or European admixtures. Are you saying that EV13 people are not exactly the same as North Africans of 10k years ago? Why call them North Africans then?

E-V13 people are fundamentally civilization creators. Responsible for farming inventors, housing, navigating, pyramid builders, math, science, military, art, architecture, religion and the list goes on.....
Sure thing, but perhaps we should describe EV13 as originated in North Africa (if it is indeed the case with paternal line), and not
E V-13 people of today's Europe are in fact North Africans.

Maleth
13-08-14, 02:31
So, E V-13 people of today's Europe are in fact North Africans. But not North Africans like the one we see today, but like the ones 10 000 yrs ago without Arabic, subsaharan or European blood infusions.

I very much doubt that E-V13 mutation happened in North Africa. The M78 (were E-V13 stems from yes) but the M78 mutation has been estimated to have occurred up to 18,000 years ago. E-V13 mutation happened much later and probably in the near east, if not in the Balkan region itself. The E-V13 in North Africa are better explained with the well documented Greek settlements in North Africa during the Hellenistic period. E-V13 in Libya is found mostly within the Jewish communities (again a subject of an import and not an export)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks_in_Egypt

SuperStalin
13-08-14, 09:56
Hi,

I am a e1b1b1a1b E-V13 and my father's family is from the Black Forest in Germany(Wagenstadt). Wagenstadt sits on the Western edge of the Black Forest. To tell you the truth I thought the lab got my results were wrong. What I am wondering is how my V13 haplogroup got to Wagenstadt?

There's a small ammount of E-V13 everywhere in Europe. With some other haplogroups, they're completely absent here or there, but E-V13 is quite common in most of Europe.
As E-V13 probably originated somewhere in Thessaly, they could have spread agriculture to paleolithic Europeans ( including in Wagenstadt ), second possibility is a Roman soldier from the Balkans ( there were 17 Roman emperors of Balkan origin ), and finally, it could have been a hussar mercenary back during the thirty years war, and other wars which shaped central European empires.

MariaC
16-08-14, 13:05
Can a family live in one specific region of Spain with records found as far back as 1630 yet, no single person from numerous databases connect with DNA? At no generation level. This is a mystery indeed. Possibly because this tiny town does not have people conducting DNA analysis. Not sure. I'm finding connections with Ireland, Scotland, and other areas. Any ideas or comments from experts would be great.

My Dad's Y-DNA Haplogroup

BT SRY10831.1
CF M168
C+F
F M89
IJK
K M9
MNOPS
P M45
R M207
R1 M173
R1b M343