http://www.eupedia.com/forum/ A place to discuss military, social and economic history, and historic relations between civilisations and cultures around the world. en Mon, 20 May 2013 16:53:10 GMT vBulletin 60 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/rss.png http://www.eupedia.com/forum/ http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28610-Would-Europe-have-been-better-off-if-Roman-Empire-had-lived-longer?goto=newpost Fri, 10 May 2013 16:07:03 GMT Studies of 6th century Bavarian Graveyards proved that the cause of death was plague. Historians think that 2/3 of Roman Empires population were dead because of plague that lasted 200 years. This was one of the main causes of Roman Empire demise. Since the plague was not spread to Slavic populated... Studies of 6th century Bavarian Graveyards proved that the cause of death was plague. Historians think that 2/3 of Roman Empires population were dead because of plague that lasted 200 years. This was one of the main causes of Roman Empire demise. Since the plague was not spread to Slavic populated areas it brought the explosion of Slavic populations. So plague its one of the causes, that we have South Slavs in places where they do not belong, namely Balkans They brought destruction to long established local cultures and disappearance of nations like Thrace, Panonia and many more. Whole areas of Balkan were filled with barbaric Slavic tribes that never brought anything to the area, than the savagery. What is your hypothetical view, would Balkan been better of without Slavs, Worse off, or the same as it is. Without plague Slavs had no chance of entering Balkans Roman Empire woould have had the manpower to protect its possessions. ]]> albanopolis http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28610-Would-Europe-have-been-better-off-if-Roman-Empire-had-lived-longer http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28593-Who-where-the-Sabines?goto=newpost Fri, 03 May 2013 09:45:55 GMT Who where the Sabines, Samnites, oscans, Umbrians, brutii, Volscians, Marsi? I heard that oscans where related people's such as pelasgian oenotrians of southern Hesperia, where the Samnites Greeks, middle eastern or italics? Thread to discuss the origins of all these italian groups!: ) ]]> adamo http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28593-Who-where-the-Sabines http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28591-Senseless-Medievil-Battle-Tactics?goto=newpost Fri, 03 May 2013 02:35:37 GMT When watching movies of battles, anywhere from the medieval to the 19th Century, I'm amazed at the senseless tactics used. Both sides line up a certain distance apart facing each other, and shoot arrows at each other, then they charge into a headlong melee. Sometimes, as in ancient Roman times there are moves and counter moves, but the end result is the same. It seems to me that this type of tactic runs counter to mans basic instinct, that is to survive. In these set battle plans, there is no thought of heavy concealment and then ambush, and little evidence of "hit and run" tactics, these seem to remain in the realm of the outlaw or the partisan bands. It's all to honourable, face to face, man to man. Yes, there are exceptions to this but look at the famous examples of historic battles, The Charge of the Light Brigade, the English and European wars. All of the so-called "civilised" armies employed these tactics at some time with resulting loss of many hundreds or thousands of lives. Why? ]]> toyomotor http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28591-Senseless-Medievil-Battle-Tactics http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28571-Old-Europe-(Vinca)-language-and-culture-in-early-layers-of-Serbian-and-Irish-language?goto=newpost Tue, 30 Apr 2013 16:52:44 GMT Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence... Many years ago I noticed strange similarities between Irish and Serbian mythology, language, toponymes and hydronymes. This was a mystery because according to history, these two peoples never lived in the same area of Europe at the same time, and therefore should not have been able to influence each other. And yet the number of similar or identical cultural, religious and linguistic characteristics kept growing. Also, people between the Balkans and Ireland did not share these cultural traits. This meant that there was no cultural diffusion. The conclusion was that these two people (Serbian and Irish) must have lived together somewhere at some point in history in order to mix their languages and cultures so much.
While trying to uncover potential meeting point, I first looked at Viking invasions from the south Baltic. While there were many things pointing to a substantial West Slavic presence among the Danish Vikings who settled in England and Ireland, this all happened too late in order to explain hundreds of old Irish words and names which were identical to the Serbian ones. Not only were these words the same, they came in clusters and could often have a root in only one of languages with complex words being present in both. It also could not explain the early medieval Irish personal names which had meaning in Serbian. It also could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. Vikings just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar.
I then looked at the Ango – Saxon period and discovered that there was a significant West Slavic (Wendish) presence in the Angles alliance. They settled in large areas of England, and there was a possibility that some unrecorded Angles settlements did appear in Ireland in the early medieval time with significant West Slavic population. But again this could not explain all the grammatical constructs which were identical in Irish and in Serbian. If there were Angles settlements in Ireland in the early medieval time, they again just didn’t have that big a cultural influence to force the Irish to accept Slavic grammar. Also there was a problem of even earlier archaeological finds, linked to the iron age, which had Serbian and Slavic characteristics. There were too many old customs, legends, sacred sites which had their counterparts in Slavic countries and particularly Balkan South Slavic countries.
So I looked at Rome, and Roman invasions of Britain and wandered was this maybe the source of common cultural characteristics between the Irish and the Serbs. But Romans never entered Ireland and there is no known record of Irish mercenaries in the Roman army, so that removed a possible connection once again.
So I looked at Iron Age period and found many things which pointed to a significant cultural influx from the south Baltic. There was a great similarity between Lusatian culture in the south Baltic and the Iron Age cultures in Ireland and England, and it seems that the Iron Age was brought to Ireland on the spears and swords of the people from south Baltic. This was a good starting point. The warrior elite from the Baltic could have brought with them their beliefs, their language and their customs, and forced them on the people they encountered in Ireland. But that would not explain the huge number of toponymes and hydronimes in the Balkans which have no meaning in Slavic languages but do have meaning in Irish. And these toponymes and hydronimes come in clusters and are tightly connected with the location of the Balkan tumulus culture sites. Also this would not explain the presence of all the words, and grammatical constructs which only exist in Irish and in certain dialects of south Slavic languages and particularly in some old dialects of Serbian. This also would not explain all the base words in South Slavic languages which can be broken down and explained using Irish. For this to be possible, Irish speaking people had to be present in the Balkans in great numbers for a very long time during the Iron Age and even during the Bronze Age.
So I looked at Celts as a possible cultural link between the two people. They were the rulers of central Europe, precisely the area between the Baltic and the Balkans. That would have given them the ability to influence both the Irish and the people who would later become the Western Slavs. But Celts never had any significant long term presence in the Balkans. They came through the Balkans on the way to Asia Minor in the 3^rd century bc. But their main strongholds were in the area above Danube. The area below Danube was the land of the Illyrians. Illyrians and Celts were by some people linked and called Celto – Illyrians. This certainly was a good lead. If Illyrians actually spoke the same or similar language to the Celts, then that would explain all the similarities between the Irish and Serbian languages but only if we accept that both the Irish and Serbian languages are direct descendants of the Celto Illyrian language and that Celtic and Illyrian were the same language.
This was already getting very controversial, as this would mean that there is a cultural continuity in the area between the Baltic and the Balkan lasting for more than 2500 years. This would mean that there is an underlying Celtic cultural layer in the Slavic culture and that the Slavic culture was created as a fusion of the Celtic and Skito Sarmatian cultures? The similarities between the Irish and Serbian cultures would then be the Celtic layer, and that would allow us to decipher the Celtic language from Irish and Slavic languages. This was very exciting. But there were things that could not be explained with the Celtic connection.
First it could not explain the amount of the words, customs, legends from old Rome and old Greece which could not be explained through Old Greek and Latin but could using Irish and Serbian language and culture. The only way this was possible was that somehow these cultural influences came to Italy and Greece from the Balkans at the time before the formation of both Kingdome of Rome and the Classical Greece. And there were plenty of ancient historical texts, as well as archaeological data that pointed to exactly that was the case.
The latest archaeological data from Serbia confirms that iron was invented in the Balkans. The earliest iron metallurgical centre in the world, dated to 14th–13th century b BC, was found in south eastern Serbia in the hill fort settlement on the hill called Hisar. This site belongs to the earliest proto Illyrian period.
So there was a culture in the Balkans powerful enough to influence Rome, Greece and Celtic central Europe. This had moved the meeting point where the future Irish and Serbs lived together to the Balkans in the end of the second and the beginning of the first millennium BC and identified the Illyrian culture as the root culture for both the Irish and the Serbs. But this culture also greatly influenced Old Rome and Greece which was evident from the amount of cultural characteristics and linguistic traces in both cultures which were in all the ancient texts attributed to the mysterious Pelasgians who even more mysteriously disappeared from the face of the earth together with their Illyrian and Celtic neighbours. These Pelasgians, Illyrians and Celts now turned out to be alive and well in the Irish, South and Western Slavs….This was getting really interesting.
But then I came across the story about Vinca metallurgical revolution which happened in the 4^th millennium BC. At the same time when they were making lots of Copper and Bronze weapons, Vinca people were creating a first organized religion. When you have well-armed religious fanatics you can be sure that a religious war is not far behind. And that is exactly what seemed to have happened in the second half of the 4^th millennium BC. Vinca culture suddenly disappeared from the Balkans, but Vinca artefacts started appearing all over Europe, Asia and North Africa. And all of a sudden all these great civilisations started appearing everywhere, all based on the same symbols, the wolf, the eagle and other birds, the snake, the bee, the bull, the double axe, the mother goddess earth, the father sky, the son sun and daughter moon, the bird people and wolf people. The Vincans went out of the Balkans and took over the world, wielding their metal spears, swords and axes and carrying their wolf totems before them. They also took with them their language whose traces can be now found in all the Indo European languages.
But they did not all leave. Some stayed at home and they later morphed into Illyrians. Those who went north eventually became Celts and Germans. Those who reached Britain and Ireland eventually became Gaels.
Later the descendants of the Vincans returned, in waves from all sides, bringing with them new cultural and linguistic characteristics which they acquired over the centuries while mixing with the indo European peoples they had conquered. These new cultural and linguistic layers were deposited on top of the old European strand of Vinca culture which was created from the mix of Vincans and the other old European cultures. Steppe people came from the east, Asia minor and Mesopotamians from the south east, North African people from the south, Atlantic people from the west. And the Vinca culture slowly disappeared.
The isolation of the Irish at the end of Europe, and the sheer number and military strength of the mountain people of the Balkans and the Central European mountains helped them to preserve this Vinca cultural and linguistic layer to this day, albeit covered with thick layers of Gaelic and Slavic and many other cultures and Languages.
Comparing these two languages I believe that I have now uncovered this culture and language of old Europe. It could not be better.
But this is not all.
I also believe that in this old language I have discovered a possibility to reconstruct the oldest language spoken in Europe, the language before the language. I believe that I have discovered how the first language was formed in Europe from natural sounds, and how this earliest human language was preserved and conserved in the Irish and Serbian languages and their base words.
To support my theory, I have accumulated a lot of material which I am translating into English. I am planning to make it available as soon as possible. The work is however in progress and I am writing this to invite everyone who might be interested to help me to continue this investigation as this is becoming too big and too important for just one man.
I hope this does not sound too mad or pretentious. You have to believe me that I am pinching myself every day, as it is hard to believe that anyone can be so lucky to stumble across something like this… ]]> dublin http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28571-Old-Europe-(Vinca)-language-and-culture-in-early-layers-of-Serbian-and-Irish-language http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28563-I-E-celts-italics-germanics-in-old-times?goto=newpost Fri, 26 Apr 2013 18:28:06 GMT a try
A try to synthetize some data about I-E in Western Europe


based upon B. SERGENT work, I summarize some facts (or considered as facts):
languages: Iberia: seemingly Asturian and Lusitanian could be I-E cousins to so called 'ält-europeisch' (or more precisely 'north-west' I-E) considered too as the first variant spoken in present days Belgium-the Netherlands before germanization – lusitanian shows some phonetic evolutions close enough to italic ones (aspired sonorizants >> fricatives) –the 'N-W-I-Ean' would have been the ancestor of the Belgae tribes vulgar language, neither celtic nor germanic but under celtic elite rules (I hesitate here: maybe true Belgae came very lately in NW Europe and send with them an already evolved celtic language?) – the dominant thesis about it is it should be an old stage of a kind of macro-italic or proto-italic, been very close geographically to speakers of proto-germanic and proto-slavic (for the traces we have are scarce, I think it is rather an old stage of an old community where we could put proto-celtic, proto-ligurian, proto-lusitanian...)
- all of these languages of Iberia show partially closeness to celtic (without loss of *P-) and too to italic and ligurian, what could make sense, considering the similarities and differences which would be the normal result of a separate evolution upon a basically same language spred on a huge scale, but spanning a relatively short time – surely «iberian» (geographically) populations indo-europeanized – caution here, because the remnants of this languages are scarce -
the ligurian or close dialects seems having been spoken in E-Iberia, S-France, a large territory in Italy and too in Corsica, Sardigna and Sicilia (Sicanes or Sicules?) -
the rhaetic (the non-etruscan part) seems close to venetic and to the famous 'ält-europeisch' – venetic itself (and the North-Illyricum dialects) seems a border-line cousin of italic languages, linking N-E Italy to Hungary Pannonia), along or south the Danaw river; some «archaicity» could explain the common traits with celtic, too -


when we look at all that, it seems that:
a western block of I-Ean languages was compound of close dialects at a first stage, where the ancestors of italic(s) kept for a time a strong and east-central position, living their proto-celtic, proto-ligurian and other west-centum «protos» more westward – on the northern boundaries the proto-italic block seems having had a longer contact to (already centum?) 'proto-germanic' and to (future?) 'satem-slavic' (itself very close to 'macro-baltic' languages or to a fraction of it -
I think celtic (more akin to the {-1600/-1150} tumuli culture of Bavaria) developped lately enough its more typical features (and *P- lost) around the W-Alps even if it kept a long time contacts with all the S-W descendants of 'ält-europeisch', which could explain its closer affinities with Iberia first I-E dialects and with ligurian – it was in contact with proto-italic and italic I see centered between Bohemia and West Carpathian Bassin and as the more sensible descendants of bearers of {-2100/-1500} modified Unjetice culture (and southermost Baden culture?)... I should say, Unjetice was a melting pots of demes, of cultures: the scholars see a strong imput of the {-2500/-1700} N-Bell-Beakers and a slight one of {-2900/-2050} Corded people (but for phenotypes bigger imput of Corded's) – concerning sepultures they see in it (Unjetice) the arrival of tumuli and also tree stock tombs (common after in North Europe! Interesting for Thuringen and Cy) and some urn-inhumations which were found later in El Argar (E-Andalusia), and which denote maybe an anatolian origin (I-E or not???) - its possible that it was not a final melting pot but rather a meeting place – it is possible (yet!!!) that already slightly differenciated celtic//italic// (and maybe //proto-germanic-// and //proto-balto-slavic//) borders were around if not inside present day Czechia at a time, before these groups individualized themselves more and more
&: the pure races thories are died long time ago but the new (or ex-new) theories of culture transmissions without population movements and the ones of immediate populations crossings cannot dure longer too: the skeletons prove the intrusion of newcomers at different stages of history (the question is: how representative were they of the total population: elite or not?) and the settlements prove that the «conquerors» at first stage very often do not expell the previous inhabitants and that, according to their economy they took sometime the worst grounds without mix (Central Europe, and too the Corded people in the Netherlands leaving first settlements to megalithers+danubian peasants) – I see also the proof of foreign arrivals in the differences of religion reflected by the sepultures rites: even if a population can change its religion, it requires at first stage the contact with foreigners (before Internet) – and/but the frequent return to older habits on this ground seems proving that old traditions of «invaded» or rather subjugued folks recovered the strong side after some time (as some genetic traits, apparently lost but only apparently, because the sepultures we find are often the elite's ones and it distords our calculations)-
... Even the future 'Urnfields' influenced Lusace culture seem to someones a cultures contact place where Celts or N-Italics (Ombrians?) lived in neighbouring future Slavs and maybe Proto-Germanics (the Thuringen region, attached to Harz and southern Nieder-Sachsen, could be involved in the germanic future cristallization even if not the most important demic element)? What is sure is that according to Czech scholars, a tumuli culture from SW Bohemia crossed Moravia to go into Silesia and that Lusacian culture was a mixt too (Urnfield/Tumuli) in Poland out of Silesia. Ombrians? Or Veneti?
The few Y-R1b-U152 of Western Poland and some cultural traits of Lusace could rather indicate Ombrians than Veneti or Celts... at these times, apart from some precise artefacts, the common culture of peoples were close enough among I-Eans descendants (the Ombrians, according to some books, wore trousers as the continental Celts, by instance – the classical authors confused very often barbarian tribes of different origins) -
For someones the Ombrians are responsible for the slight separation between the mass of latin-sabellic languages and the venetian ones.; it would prove (Osco-)Ombrians (and then Villanova bearers) were coming down from North-East, and in touch with some Celts (the *Qw- become >> *P- ones): see Lusace; the {-1700/-1200?}Terramare bearers (as thought H.HUBERT and A.MARTINET) would have been the first Latins or akin tribes and not the Ligurians – I think rather now these folks were a mix of accultured Ligurians/Pré-Ligurians with «true» Latins ancestors influenced lately by other Italics of Urnfields culture – thix melting pot became after the fully evolved Latins and close cousins more on the western side of Italy – the structure of latin villages recalled the ones of Unjetice culture -
... and his 'Karpodacians' (HUBERT) influencing Proto-Germanics were maybe the Unjetice culture continuers stayed on place, with some new accretions, evolving towards a future venetic culture ?(he wrote some other ones believed they were Illyrians, at his time when everyone was seeing Illyrians everypart in Europe! Lusacian pottery was found around his «illyrian rivers names» but (he wrote) there was no lusacian pottery in Illyria proper - maybe only old forms of venetic, confused later with illyrian names ??? – the venetic connexion is not without sense: a N-E venetic or wend population in contact with Ombrians in Lusace-SW Poland???
About the -1000 Hallstatt developped, with celtic speaking tribes practizing cremation as the Villanovians (Ombrians + ??? *P- Celts?) but returning after that to inhumation (Celts under cultural domination of Urnfield-Ombrians in Bohemia, with some Veneti imput ?) - I'm tempted to think that the *P-Celts came at that time from the eastern part of their «homeland» before La Tène culture
(I cannot say how La Tène Celts Y-R1b-U152 percentages were strongly reinforced after their contacts with Italics at these times or hardly modified)- ]]> MOESAN http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28563-I-E-celts-italics-germanics-in-old-times http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28546-The-Ark-of-the-Covenant-What-it-is-and-where-it-might-be?goto=newpost Thu, 18 Apr 2013 05:31:25 GMT Come and see...
http://www.boloji.com/index.cfm?md=Content&sd=Articles&ArticleID=14271 ]]> Rainbow Warrior http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28546-The-Ark-of-the-Covenant-What-it-is-and-where-it-might-be http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28539-Several-Easter-Island-tablet-chants-deciphered?goto=newpost Mon, 15 Apr 2013 02:29:48 GMT In the Decipherment of the Easter Island Tablets, there is deciphered for the first time, chants from the Easter Island tablets used by the tohunga priests to pray for the swim of young passage-rite initiates. One of the chants, called the Tattoo Soothing Chant of Maui's Ball Game, names the Easter Island statues and their locations as the Brothers of Maui in broader Polynesian Mythology. Incredible if true. There is a verifiable syllabus and Rongorongo glossary.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/127655314/The-Decipherment-of-the-Easter-Island-Tablets ]]> Rainbow Warrior http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28539-Several-Easter-Island-tablet-chants-deciphered http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28536-Why-Chineese-Indian-and-Russian-Empire-did-nor-collapse?goto=newpost Sun, 14 Apr 2013 20:52:40 GMT I need your opinions about this topic. We see that China is not a country. So is India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Russia and many more. Why did not they collapse the way all European Empires did? The difference between a country and an empire is that empires are made of many ethnic groups, countries... I need your opinions about this topic. We see that China is not a country. So is India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Russia and many more. Why did not they collapse the way all European Empires did?
The difference between a country and an empire is that empires are made of many ethnic groups, countries from a single one. I am amazed how strong all this empires are. Anyone has an opinion/ ]]> albanopolis http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28536-Why-Chineese-Indian-and-Russian-Empire-did-nor-collapse http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28520-1001-questions-about-the-Takla-Makan-Mummies?goto=newpost Fri, 12 Apr 2013 01:03:27 GMT Hello everybody! This is my first time on a general forum like this. And seeing as how this is the case, I have a few (Many) questions to ask about my favorite ancient civilization...The Takla Makan Mummies who may or may not be Tocharians. And when I refer to these mummies, I am referring to... Hello everybody!

This is my first time on a general forum like this.

And seeing as how this is the case, I have a few (Many) questions to ask about my favorite ancient civilization...The Takla Makan Mummies who may or may not be Tocharians. And when I refer to these mummies, I am referring to the 3,000 some odd year old mummies which were found in the Tarim Basin.

Well, here are a few questions about them to start things off...

1: Roughly how many Takla Makan mummies were found in total?
2: Where did the Takla Makan mummies live? In the desert? In caves perhaps?
3: If the Takla Makan mummies were alive, would they be attractive-looking?
4: What language did they speak way back then?
5: Did they know how to read and write?
6: If so, did they write on scrolls? What did they use to write with?

I will ask more questions as I think of them, but do know I have a LOT of questions to ask.

Good luck to everybody who decides to answer them! ]]> History Mon http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28520-1001-questions-about-the-Takla-Makan-Mummies