Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

[how yes no 2]

could proto-Serbs really originally dwelled somewhere as west as Bohemia as indicated by Byzantine emperor historian?
originally dwelled that means long long time ago in the past...

Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2... and I2a2 seems to match other proto-Serb related tribes (Serboi and Siraces in Caspian and Black sea areas... Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of northwest China match spread of haplogroup I in Asia)

if proto-Serbs dwelled in Bohemia for many centuries in past, perhaps tribal name(s) similar to Serians, Serbs..is recorded by historians in that area....

let's see what Strabo has to say about Celts, Germans, proto-Serbs and Bohemia..

Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;

quoted from
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...999.01.0198:book=7:chapter=1&highlight=sibini

So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

Sibini could be indeed a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends

however, Serians mentioned by Seneca are much more east...as they rule over Dacians and cross frozen Danube...as I explained Scordisci are one candidate....but could that in fact be Carpi, who are classified as Dacians only because in one reference the word Carpo-Dacians is used...

Zosimus, a Byzantine chronicler writing around AD 500, records an invasion of Rome's Danubian provinces in 381 by a barbarian coalition of Huns, Scirii and Karpodakai ("Carpo-Dacians").[36] The latter term has been taken by many scholars as "proof" of the Carpi's Dacian ethnicity.[33] But this is the only literary evidence linking the Carpi name to that of the Dacians, and Zosimus is regarded by some modern scholars as an unreliable chronicler.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpi_(people)

Carpo-Dacians could just mean Dacians with Carpi rulling elite...

Carpi may explain spread of I2a2 in Romania
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/100/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/200/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/300/entity_15234.html
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/400/entity_15234.html

 

[how yes no 2]

how yes no

When I'll have more than 10 posts (for links), will post (If I can here) about "Iranian theory" of Croats, that is about their name origin, symbols, etc. I think this could be good to compare along Serbian one.
___

Serbs and Croats seems to go in pair for long time as related but different people...

I think they together (perhaps with other tribes) might be known under names such as Veneti and might be original carriers of I2a2... I also think that early Slavs were in fact I2a2 Veneti... on other hand there is also mention of Serians that match spread of haplogroup I in Euroasia and seems to relate to proto-Serbs...

as for Sarmatians they are probably mix of tribes of different origin and among them also some of the tribes related to proto-Serbs and proto-Croats... note that there are also Sarmatian Venedi, and that Antes (likely derivation from tribal name Eneti, from which Veneti is also derived) are first mentioned as Sarmatian and later as being of Veneti race...

As far, as I know, Serbian coat of arms and the flag is not that old, but actually more a copy than a original idea. If I'm wrong correct me since I'm quiet new to Serbian history.

flags of most Slavic countries are rather recent... original Slavic colours are red and white...
blue got in when Peter the Great was incognito in Netherlands and was impressed by their flag... so he changed later the flag of Russia, and later other Slavic nations (except Poland) took over choice of colors for flag...

I wonder what was originally the meaning of red and white... it is known that the red and white had meaning of south and west respectively, but that doesnot explain choice of colours for flags and coats of arms... .....Veneti seems to be related to wind....so maybe red and white as fire and wind, energy and air...

as for coat of arms of Serbia (notice it is also red and white) it's hard to say, but my guesses are here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362715&postcount=101
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362844&postcount=108
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362846&postcount=109

btw. Croatian red-white checkerboard coat of arms is interesting as it is very specific and can be served to identify Croats throughout a history...
e.g. areas in Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland that were part of white Croatia seems to still have checkerboard as motive in coat of arms... you can see it repeated in many coat of arms of regions and towns there...

I think in some scientific research, Helvetti are taken as a version of the term for Croats or in Croatian language, Hrvati.

that is interesting idea... do you know where can one read more about that research?

 

[Dalmat]

for a Greek and descendant of Byzantine empire i am surprised you dont know origin of Serbian shield

for the Iranian origin of Croats,is alternative history department among Croatians at best.

Most logical is that name is from word "Hrbati" which means Mountain people or highlanders,as opposed to "Poljak" (Polje,plain,lowlands) for Polish people which means,Lowlander.

for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&sl=hr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croatia.org%2Fcrown%2Farticles%2F9864%2F1%2FWhite-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

Site is near Lviv,in Galitia county of Ukraine

Its Shield looks like this

compared to Dalmatian and of Zagreb

Zagreb

Dalmatia

 

[Garrick]

then we agree that thracian were celts, since proto serbs were celts(although cultura druga), so we have a common sprink of I2a2 in dalmatia, and a possible music influence in womans polyphonic voice, example
here is some east celt music

iapetoc
There are opinions in Serbia that Serbs are Celts.

More after DNA researchs reports that Serbs are not Slavs.

But problem with Celts is haplogroup, because Celtic haplogroup is R1b.

Of course it is possible that the tribes were referred to as the Celtic although they have not been.

Researchers often mixed Celtic and Germanic tribes, so it's no surprise that the mix and the Serbian tribes.

But your effort is very valuable, the Celtic path may be the right path on which side of research should focus, and that I agree with you.

It is now clear that there are many wandering since among the Old Greeks and Romans who wrote about the different tribes were many doubts and erroneous classification of different tribes.

However haplogroups us unmistakably lead right track, so no doubt, it will be established close connection and common origins between of Old Serbs, Germans, Scandinavians, and all I the people, and it will be disclosed the original I language (languages).

 

[how yes no 2]

for a Greek and descendant of Byzantine empire i am surprised you dont know origin of Serbian shield

Byzantine flag origins from Paleologos/ Palaiologan dinasty...first emperor from that dinasty starts rulling only at 1259 and origins from Macedonia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologan_dynasty
so the motive might have easily traveled other way around as the same motive exist among Serbian nobles of Macedonia - Mrnjavcevici

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers

for the Iranian origin of Croats,is alternative history department among Croatians at best.
Most logical is that name is from word "Hrbati" which means Mountain people or highlanders,as opposed to "Poljak" (Polje,plain,lowlands) for Polish people which means,Lowlander.
for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page
http://translate.google.com/transla...heir-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

Mountain people or highlanders make sense for origin of word Croats...

 

[how yes no 2]

f
for instance there is also some archeological findings of Croats in Ukraine,on this page

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=hr&sl=hr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.croatia.org%2Fcrown%2Farticles%2F9864%2F1%2FWhite-Croats-in-Ukraine-and-their-seat-Stiljsko-near-the-city-of-Lviv.html

Site is near Lviv,in Galitia county of Ukraine

Its Shield looks like this

compared to Dalmatian and of Zagreb

Zagreb

Dalmatia

this is very interesting...
besides red and white, blue and yellow is other combination present in Slavic countries (not only in Ukraine)...

interestingly, this is imediatelly west of areas that have white cross on red background as coat of arms which is as Serbian coat of arms... which reinforces theory of Serb and Croat tribes traveling in pair...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volyn_Oblast

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivne_Oblast

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362844&postcount=108

 

[Dalmat]

Mountain people or highlanders make sense for origin of word Croats...

it does ,because in Slavonic language trough history "v" and "b" were often interchangeable.

You should know that well, as your country was called Servia about 100 years ago.

 

[Dalmat]

Byzantine flag origins from Paleologos/ Palaiologan dinasty...first emperor from that dinasty starts rulling only at 1259 and origins from Macedonia...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologan_dynasty
so the motive might have easily traveled other way around as the same motive exist among Serbian nobles of Macedonia - Mrnjavcevici

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Serbian_rulers

so you are saying Byzantium took their coat of arms from Serbs?

Also there are cross with 4 "c" on ancient Greek artifacts and pictures,so i bet Byzantium as Greek empire,maybe took it from their own history

 

[how yes no 2]

iapetoc
There are opinions in Serbia that Serbs are Celts.

More after DNA researchs reports that Serbs are not Slavs.

But problem with Celts is haplogroup, because Celtic haplogroup is R1b.

Of course it is possible that the tribes were referred to as the Celtic although they have not been.

Researchers often mixed Celtic and Germanic tribes, so it's no surprise that the mix and the Serbian tribes.

But your effort is very valuable, the Celtic path may be the right path on which side of research should focus, and that I agree with you.

It is now clear that there are many wandering since among the Old Greeks and Romans who wrote about the different tribes were many doubts and erroneous classification of different tribes.

However haplogroups us unmistakably lead right track, so no doubt, it will be established close connection and common origins between of Old Serbs, Germans, Scandinavians, and all I the people, and it will be disclosed the original I language (languages).

I2a2 could have been Celtic as well... because in fact all haplogroup I might have been genuine original Celts...

read this
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=363364&postcount=52

 

[how yes no 2]

Also there are cross with 4 "c" on ancient Greek artifacts and pictures,so i bet Byzantium as Greek empire,maybe took it from their own history

are you sure there are 4 "C" on ancient Greek artifacts? I have never ever heard of something like that....so, I dare you to prove this claim...find credible single example

 

[Dalmat]

are you sure there are 4 "C" on ancient Greek artifacts? I have never ever heard of something like that....so, I dare you to prove this claim...find credible single example

read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"

 

[Garrick]

read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"

Dalmat, it is obvious poignancy in your posts.

Is not in any address of a Croatian Serb, or vice versa, there must be acrimony and bickering?

Here we are in a very difficult issues and try to reconstruct the flows on the basis of new information, rather than futile skirmishing, there are other forums for bickering, this is a serious European Forum.

 

[how yes no 2]

read Deretic,he explains "well" how Achilles and Alexander the Great were Serbs because they wore cross with 4 "c"

I thought you are smart enough to realize that Byzantine coat of arms never had 4 'C', but 4 'B' which had a meaning

King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaiologos

so, if your proof is correct, than version identical to Serbian coat of arms (the one with 4 'C') is original, while Byzantine version with 4 'B' is a copy..

though, I also thought you are smart enough not to believe Deretic's alternative version of history... he did probably draw 4 'C' himself

it does ,because in Slavonic language trough history "v" and "b" were often interchangeable.
You should know that well, as your country was called Servia about 100 years ago.

sure...
Srb -> Srv ->Hrv

btw. maybe word Croat origins from word fruit
here is possible story about Veneti preserved as a myth:

In Greek mythology, the Anemoi (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds") were wind gods who were each ascribed a cardinal direction, from which their respective winds came, and were each associated with various seasons and weather conditions.
...
Of the four chief Anemoi, Boreas was the north wind and bringer of cold winter air, Notus was the south wind and bringer of the storms of late summer and autumn, and Zephyrus was the west wind and bringer of light spring and early summer breezes; Eurus, the east wind, was not associated with any of the three Greek seasons.
...
The deities equivalent to the Anemoi in Roman mythology were the Venti (in Latin, "winds").
....
Zephyrus, or just Zephyr (Greek: Ζέφυρος, Zéphuros, "the west wind"), in Latin Favonius, is the Greek god of the west wind. The gentlest of the winds, Zephyrus is known as the fructifying wind, the messenger of spring. It was thought that Zephyrus lived in a cave in Thrace.
Zephyrus was reported as having several wives in different stories. He was said to be the husband of his sister Iris, the goddess of the rainbow. He abducted another of his sisters, the goddess Chloris, and gave her the domain of flowers. With Chloris, he fathered Carpus ("fruit").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

In Greek mythology, Karpos (Latin: Carpus, literally "fruit"), was a youth renowned for his beauty. He is the son of Zephyros (the west wind) and Khloris (spring, or new vegetation), forming a natural metaphor — the west wind heralds the new growth of spring, which then bears fruit. Carpo (or Xarpo), one of the Horae, is in some ways the feminine equivalent of Karpos; her dominion was autumn, ripening, and harvesting.
...
The word Karpos derives from the Proto-Indo-European language root "kerp-" or "karp-" meaning "to gather", "to pluck" or "to harvest". Cognates can be found in many Indo-European languages including modern English in words such as "harvest" (via Germanic), "carpet", "excerpt" and "scarce" (via Latin). Coming to English directly from the Greek "karpos" are the following:
the prefix "carpo-" — meaning fruit. e.g. carpophagous, "fruit-eating"
the suffixes "-carp" and "-carpous" — also meaning fruit. e.g. ascocarp, pericarp
Carpel — the female reproductive organ of a flower
Carpology - the study of fruits and seeds
Carp — a fruiting body of a fungus
The proper name Carpophorus (lit. "fruit-bearing")
A well-known expression in Latin is "carpe diem" (= "pluck the day", enjoy life as it is now)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karpos

 

[Garrick]

I2a2 could have been Celtic as well... because in fact all haplogroup I might have been genuine original Celts...

read this
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=363364&postcount=52

I read it.

I thought that when I wrote, just the Old Romans and Greeks were confused about different tribes.

So that today some tribes that are considered as Celtic maybe after DNA researching they were I carriers not R1a.

But ok, we can use the name of Celtic, especially that does not turn out too much from the general opinion.

Now that is approaching the convergence of different options, because it directs us to the unmistakable traces of DNA, there is no need for insisting that every question in detail cleared, it is essential that the general path is the right one.

 

[Ivan]

Areas with increased frequencies of haplogroup I can easily be matched to locations of Serboi/Serbi in Caspian area and to Kuban region in Black sea area to which Siraces migrated from the Caspian area.....

I hotspot does not match Serbi or Serboi. It is actually 500km lower.
It is an old map and thus distorted. Serboi on your map live on mouth of river Volga,
500km up. Halfway is a characteristical ridge on Caspian sea

Kuban river does match I. I believe it is due to Russians (later known as Cossacks) that came in great numbers from 1500-1900 to Kuban and who are mostly I2a2

 

[how yes no 2]

I hotspot does not match Serbi or Serboi. It is actually 500km lower.
It is an old map and thus distorted. Serboi on your map live on mouth of river Volga,
500km up. Halfway is a characteristical ridge on Caspian sea

Kuban river does match I. I believe it is due to Russians (later known as Cossacks) that came in great numbers from 1500-1900 to Kuban and who are mostly I2a2

you are looking at wrong place... I do not know what tribe is south most hotspot in Caucasus area, but if you look at position of Serboi, you will sea that spread towards west starts from there...which matches expected pattern with Siraces (same as Serboi) moving from that place to Kuban region...

 

[Ivan]

Sarmatian theories of Serbs and Croat concerning large numbers of people that allegedly undertook that trip, is unlikely.

But concerning names of Serbs and Croats, and how they ended up here, Sarmatian theory does make sense.

 

[how yes no 2]

Sarmatian theories of Serbs and Croat concerning large numbers of people that allegedly undertook that trip, is unlikely.

But concerning names of Serbs and Croats, and how they ended up here, Sarmatian theory does make sense.

if it was not large group of people it would not be visible in the map above...
but point is that Sarmatians were group of people of different origin....some of Serians namely Serboi/Siraces (likely proto-Serbs) lived among Sarmatians...but some lived elsewhere in Europe, Saudi Arabia, northwest China, Afganistan... So, Sarmatian theory of origin is a bit way to simplified...

point is however that haplogroup I is for long time in Europe, and what likely happened is that some part of it (namely Serians that are mentioned by Seneca) has spread from Europe to Asia and Caucasus, probably in porder to establish/utilize trade routes....

this reminds me a bit on ideas I have about Vikings... also Sherden sea people reminded me on Vikings...so I am curious whether the haplogroup I in west Asia is I2a2, I1 or I*
I1 would be Viking and I* would mean that spread of I started from there...

 

[Ivan]

No,

If I hotspot (a small concentrated circle in Caucasus mountains) is what you link to Serboi , look at the small ridge on Caspian sea. Your hotspot is 250km downward. Serboi on old map are on mouth of Volga river it is upwards 500 km from that hot spot. Ridge is halway.

You just need to look for river mouths and some landmarks when comparing to an old map.

your hotspot is around 100km down from Makachkala.

Serboi should be aroun Kalmyk

 

[Ivan]

Surely there were I in Sarmatians.

Just comapare your map of G to where Alani are on your old map. Look for the ridge for rough orientation. It matches more than I.
Even though Alani were pretty much destroyed by Mongols, and they retreated back to Caucasus mountains it still is a somewhat better match

About the names

3rd-century inscriptions from the Greek colony of Tanais at the mouth of the Don River mention a nearby Alan tribe called the Choroatos or Chorouatos[citation needed]. The historian Ptolemy identifies the Serboi as a tribe who lived north of the Caucasus, and other sources identify the Serboi as an Alan tribe in the Volga-Don steppe in the 3rd century[citation needed].