Where can North Africans pass in Europe?

[Just Blaz3d]

I forgot to address these older posts,

minimal ? Dodecad Southwest-Asian (peaks in Arabians) : Algeria 16%, Tunisia 12%, Morocco 13%

West Asian ancestry in north Africans is largely neolithic, and thus quite old, it is not recent (for the most part).

Besides Arab (it's not really insignificant), there is a high percentage of SS African.

Arab? Wtf?

As for the sub-saharan dna, the study wasn't comprehensive, Tishkoff never sampled Algerian Arabs, Chaouis, Kabyles, etc, only Algerian Mozabites, and excluded northeast Africa altogether, and parts of northwest Africa (like Mauritania for example). She used the Mozabite cluster as a reference, to contrast the other samples.

I disagree. I've never seen a North African in Spain or Portugal who could pass as a true native (meaning non-Canarian, etc,)...

Now we're excluding phenotypes, that have been possibly contributing to existing variables for centuries, because they were a result of demic exchange? You're reaching quite a ways bro.

...The real proof lies in autosomal DNA frequencies (govern phenotype); North Africans cluster nowhere near Iberians.

Genotypic variation does not always correlate with one's phenotype.

E.g., Cristiano Ronaldo (who allegedly has a Cape Verdean great grand mother) looks like quite a few Portuguese, not unsurprisingly, he and they (those Portuguese that resemble him) remind me of Moroccans.

My point is that you will likely find more phenotypic overlap (although not substantial) between North Africans and people from some areas of the Eastern Mediterranean, since the Near Eastern genomic influences are significantly higher there than in SW Europe.

What does the influx of geneflow from the near east into southeastern Europe, have to do with the latter group looking more like north Africans? Greeks look far more like west Asians than they do north Africans, in contrast, north Africans generally do not look like west Asians (or most Greeks).

As I indicated earlier, Almagro himself, is uncommon (from a phenotypical perspective) in Morocco, but not entirely atypical. And while he's reminiscent of the more easterly peripheries in the med basin, he also shares properties more akin to those found in the western basins.

As far as I know, when resembling Europeans, Moroccans look more so Iberian imo, Ibrahim Affelay being an example of this. There's actually another individual I had in mind, but his name escapes me at the moment.

BTW, Almargo is a very atypical Spaniard, even for the deep south of Spain. I don't know his background but I would't be at all surprised if he has recent N. African, Canarian or Roma ancestry, which, of course, would make him genetically non-native.

And nobody suggested he wasn't, he was merely used as an example of the more ambiguous looking Iberians, who have looks reminiscent of north Africans. I've even stressed several times, his look is fairly uncommon in Morocco itself. Perhaps Penelope Cruz would have fared a better choice (although, she doesn't look particularly ambiguous, as far as I can tell)?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

I forgot to address these older posts,



West Asian ancestry in north Africans is largely neolithic, and thus quite old, it is not recent (for the most part).



Arab? Wtf?

As for the sub-saharan dna, the study wasn't comprehensive, Tishkoff never sampled Algerian Arabs, Chaouis, Kabyles, etc, only Algerian Mozabites, and excluded northeast Africa altogether, and parts of northwest Africa (like Mauritania for example). She used the Mozabite cluster as a reference, to contrast the other samples.



Now we're excluding phenotypes, that have been possibly contributing to existing variables for centuries, because they were a result of demic exchange? You're reaching quite a ways bro.



Genotypic variation does not always correlate with one's phenotype.

E.g., Cristiano Ronaldo (who allegedly has a Cape Verdean great grand mother) looks like quite a few Portuguese, not unsurprisingly, he and they (those Portuguese that resemble him) remind me of Moroccans.



What does the influx of geneflow from the near east into southeastern Europe, have to do with the latter group looking more like north Africans? Greeks look far more like west Asians than they do north Africans, in contrast, north Africans generally do not look like west Asians (or most Greeks).

As I indicated earlier, Almagro himself, is uncommon (from a phenotypical perspective) in Morocco, but not entirely atypical. And while he's reminiscent of the more easterly peripheries in the med basin, he also shares properties more akin to those found in the western basins.

As far as I know, when resembling Europeans, Moroccans look more so Iberian imo, Ibrahim Affelay being an example of this. There's actually another individual I had in mind, but his name escapes me at the moment.



And nobody suggested he wasn't, he was merely used as an example of the more ambiguous looking Iberians, who have looks reminiscent of north Africans. I've even stressed several times, his look is fairly uncommon in Morocco itself. Perhaps Penelope Cruz would have fared a better choice (although, she doesn't look particularly ambiguous, as far as I can tell)?

First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese (and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean). Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy. Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native? Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

 

[LeBrok]

First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese (and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean). Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy. Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native? Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

Define who's native in Portugal, if you are able?
Does culture play a role in it, or it's purely genetic?

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Define who's native in Portugal, if you are able?
Does culture play a role in it, or it's purely genetic?

If you are born in a certain country and genetically of non-indigenous stock you qualify only as culturally and politically native to it. A European, or anyone else, would need to have a genome that dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region of birth to be genetically indigenous. For example, Canarians with significant Gaunche ancestry are not genetically indigenous to mainland Spain. However, they are native Spaniards in the cultural and political sense.

In the specific case of Portugal - and this is well supported by autosomal DNA research - the genetic substratum (the founding ancestral pool, if you will) comprises essentially the following: Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Some Near Eastern (Megalithic and Neolithic) contributions also form a modest component of the Portuguese substratum.

Let's have your definition of "native". I'm sure your comments will be most interesting.

 

[Wilhelm]

Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources :

http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...e-cabo-verde-apoia-compatriota-c-ronaldo.html

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/cristiano-ronaldo-tem-costela-cabo-verdiana=f491641

 

[Cambrius (The Red)]

Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources :

http://globoesporte.globo.com/futeb...e-cabo-verde-apoia-compatriota-c-ronaldo.html

http://aeiou.expresso.pt/cristiano-ronaldo-tem-costela-cabo-verdiana=f491641

A very good question. I'll post my social psychological research on the matter in the near future...Ahhhh controversy, controversy.

 

[Just Blaz3d]

First of all, Cristiano Ronaldo is hardly your typical Portuguese...

Perhaps not as common, but hardly atypical. His pheno's even been contrasted to a northern European (from the British Isles); Jamie Wright. The individual in question looks more Iberian than British, but then again, so do Colin Ferrell and Catherine Zeta-Jones.

...(and one of his grandmothers certainly was Cape Verdean).

I never said that wasn't the case, merely that he'd made the allegation. In any case, it would be hard to determine whether the great-grandparent was of sub-saharan descent, since a) Ronaldo never made this public, b) Ronaldo isn't at all reminiscent of sub-saharans, and c) not all Cape Verdeans were/are sub-saharan (a small minority are almost entirely west eurasian).

The fact is, the average Cape Verdean appears to determinedly be, 43% European. Likely, a portion of the euro genetic substratum is Canarian, north African, and/or Jewish―as has been observed in other instances―and thus non-European (basic clustering at it's finest). But what's clear, is that they're heavily mixed (only 57% sub-saharan―almost entirely west African). So even if he has some sub-saharan admix, it is probably relatively minor (we're talking roughly ~7.13% black dna, with possible, additional, non-euro west eurasian input). Ronaldo would certainly fall well within the genetic norm for Iberians, and as has been already mentioned, doesn't look at all atypical for a peninsular inhabitant.

Jorge Rocha et al btw, for the study on Cape Verde (I can't link, but if you google his and the country's names, you should find articles referencing the work).

...Moreover, Cruz's father is part Gypsy...

Where's the source for this? Is this just internet conjecture (e.g., Lola Luv, who was rumored to be half Trinidadian, when in actuality she was fully Ethiopian)? Or do you actually have verifiable citation to prove the contrary (that she's partially Gypsy)?

Regardless, Penelope Cruz resembles quite a few Spanish women, delicately built, thin-featured (i.e., gracilized). She hardly exhibits the exoticism of a Sergio Asenjo (who looks north African), Sergio Busquets (another pseudo-north African), or an Almagro―again I'm more than certain if there's northwest African ancestry, that it's not recent, he looks quite atypical for the region, despite the interesting surname.

As exotic as all those individuals are, I've corresponded with quite a few Iberians on these types of fora, who merely see them as existing outliers within the peninsula, not non-indigenous as you claim. It's understandable that some of the mentioned do not fall within the most typical of looks, but those types of phenos are too numerous to simply be ignored. Besides, they themselves only overlap with certain Moroccans for instance, the majority of Moroccans look more admixed.

...Tell us, do you consider Third World types in Iberia as native?

You realize "third world" refers to non-aligned nations (in regards to their economic and political orientations)? Many eastern European countries are considered non first world, yet are European. And many "third world" nations can have, what could be characterized as "first world" economies (Brazil, China, and India for instance). I think what you might have meant was "developing?" In which case, Spain can be considered perhaps a step up from "developing," as both disparity and unemployment rates continue to rise (rate of joblessness follows similar trends to combined French and Italian unemployment). This only serves to compound Spain's fiscal crisis (Portugal's situation is quite worse).

I'd suggest re-evaluating your use of either, as Iberians are the last needing chastise any of their immigrants, coming from humbler pastures. :useless:

...Again, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and Iberians average between 86 to 91% European affinities, with more than 50% Western, Northern and Eastern Euro. What else do we need to know?

Autosomal DNA testing merely quantifies genetic relatedness to existing historical populations, it is allelic variation within the genome that expresses human variability (polymorphism). But even in two different sub-sets, you find a degree of interrelatedness. For example, the genes for lighter skin, in both Spaniards and Puerto Ricans, are expressed the same, even though a significant portion of the west eurasian component (in Puerto Ricans) is non-euro, and an additional proportion of the ancestry, being American and sub-saharan.

Why do they always use non-indigenous people as references for Iberia? What is their agenda ? Cristiano Ronaldo grandmother was Cape Verdean, here the sources...

Correction, great grandmother, according to multiple sources (including the second one you provided).

Translation:

The FIFA Player of the Year in 2008 is Portuguese, from the island of Madeira. But the family of the Lusitanian playmaker has ties to Cape Verde, through his great-grandmother, Elizabeth Rose.

Yes, Cristiano Ronaldo is very non-native, considering his great grandmother might have been your average CV creole (most likely no blacker).

 

[LeBrok]

If you are born in a certain country and genetically of non-indigenous stock you qualify only as culturally and politically native to it. A European, or anyone else, would need to have a genome that dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region of birth to be genetically indigenous. For example, Canarians with significant Gaunche ancestry are not genetically indigenous to mainland Spain. However, they are native Spaniards in the cultural and political sense.

In the specific case of Portugal - and this is well supported by autosomal DNA research - the genetic substratum (the founding ancestral pool, if you will) comprises essentially the following: Paleolithic, Proto-Celtic, Celtic and Germanic. Some Near Eastern (Megalithic and Neolithic) contributions also form a modest component of the Portuguese substratum.

Let's have your definition of "native". I'm sure your comments will be most interesting.

Well, according to your definition Penelope Cruz and Cristiano Ronaldo are native to Portugal. Their genome, as you put it, "...dominantly reflects the (genetic) substratum of his region ..." Even if Ronaldo great grandma was (possibly) black, he is dominantly 87.5% autosomaly Portuguese, therefore native. Isn't 87.5% dominant enough for you? What's your percentage?
Penelope is at least 75% Portuguese, 25% Gypsy. Oh wait, Gypsy live in Portugal for 600 years. How come they are not included in Portugal autosomal substratum? 600 years is not long enough? Where is your cut off for native, one thousand years?

See, whatever definition for "native" you will find, it will look only good on paper, but it will become vague and imprecise when thrown against complexity of today's societies.

PS. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have this conversation if Penelope and Cristiano were blond, right?

 

[Dean]

You guys, are running in circles. All what you are saying does not change the fact that north africans, as a whole, can not pass anywhere in europe as a native. Almost all the guys/girls posted by oreo have classical north african face features.

In addition, this poll is clearly biased. The question itself is biased. First, and foremost, the question indirectly asserts that north africans can pass somewhere in europe. The question is not if they "could pass" but, directly, "where" . Secondly, it is mandatory to vote for an european country because there is no choice to vote "nowhere". Thirdly, i dont know why Spain and portugal are the two first options in the poll.

And finally, if you compare two populations in a scientific way, you can not choose some elements to support your point of view and pretend being objective. You can not extrapolate a general rule by choosing only a few elements.

On the contrary, we live in spain and we see thousand spaniards every day. We have many north africans here living in spain. So, although less than spaniards, we can see every day a lot of them, enough to see that they are clearly different as a whole. They CAN NOT pass a as a native, in general. It is not a matter of dark hair or dark eyes or skin. Their facial features, their skull, etc... are different to our eyes.

So, i suspect that the people who voted this pool have never been to spain, portugal, italy, etc... and have never seen a north african. Or may be they have some stereotypes about southern europeans in general and about iberians in particular. I repeat, in general, they can not pass anywhere in europe.

 

[Mzungu mchagga]

You guys, are running in circles. All what you are saying does not change the fact that north africans, as a whole, can not pass anywhere in europe as a native. Almost all the guys/girls posted by oreo have classical north african face features.

In addition, this poll is clearly biased. The question itself is biased. First, and foremost, the question indirectly asserts that north africans can pass somewhere in europe. The question is not if they "could pass" but, directly, "where" . Secondly, it is mandatory to vote for an european country because there is no choice to vote "nowhere". Thirdly, i dont know why Spain and portugal are the two first options in the poll.

And finally, if you compare two populations in a scientific way, you can not choose some elements to support your point of view and pretend being objective. You can not extrapolate a general rule by choosing only a few elements.

On the contrary, we live in spain and we see thousand spaniards every day. We have many north africans here living in spain. So, although less than spaniards, we can see every day a lot of them, enough to see that they are clearly different as a whole. They CAN NOT pass a as a native, in general. It is not a matter of dark hair or dark eyes or skin. Their facial features, their skull, etc... are different to our eyes.

So, i suspect that the people who voted this pool have never been to spain, portugal, italy, etc... and have never seen a north african. Or may be they have some stereotypes about southern europeans in general and about iberians in particular. I repeat, in general, they can not pass anywhere in europe.

I agree on this!
I don't want to be offensive to anyone, but my observation from this and other forums so far is that it's clearly people from the Mediterranean, Near East and Caucasus who have to demonstrate how European they are [looks, DNA, culture etc...] and how this fact distinguishes them from their other close neighbours. And yes, all these threads about this topic ARE biased, probably mostly also without realizing it.
For me personally it is a new and ironic experience, because especially women where I live put a lot of effort into NOT looking North European by dying their hair black, going to tanning salons and dressing up like chicas [and they look stupider with this ever since...].

 

[oreo_cookie]

For the person who said the thread is biased because it implies North Africans can pass, and there is no "None" option, it means that if you don't think they can pass anywhere you probably won't pick any option and will leave a comment saying so.. but most, if given the none option, would pick it so it doesn't answer the "where" part of the question.

 

[Wilhelm]

It is clear what your agenda is Oreo. Enough of this bullshit. The post of Dean is 100% clear.

 

[oreo_cookie]

It was a genuine question, no need to be defensive.

 

[lebowsky]

Poll results hit you in the eye.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Poll results hit you in the eye.

Indeed.. I didn't vote though.

Did you vote on the other polls too?

 

[Rinconete]

Some North Africans seem to Europeans because many of them are descendants of Jews and Moors expelled from the Iberian Peninsula and the rest of Europe. They also suffered invasions by Germanic peoples, such as the Vandals. In addition, the Berbers are Caucasian in origin. Although, now they have a lot of mixed Negroid.

 

[oreo_cookie]

Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

 

[lebowsky]

Indeed.. I didn't vote though.

Did you vote on the other polls too?

Yes, I did.

 

[lebowsky]

Wouldn't Muslims of native Iberian origin have been expelled too during the Reconquista, bringing Iberian ancestry into North Africa to some extent as well?

You can bet on it.

 

[oreo_cookie]

I think it might be possible that some of the European looks to some North Africans is a result of the Reconquista and the expulsion of Muslims in Iberia, either of partial or full Iberian ancestry, to North Africa.