Serb and Croat genes

Hello guys. I was intrigued by this topic and I decided to join. Now, I'm no genetics expert by any means but I notice that there are some of you here that really understand this stuff so there are just a couple of points I'd like to bring to your attention that might perhaps help us all understand the situation here better.

In 15th and 16th century when Croatia was pretty much cleansed by the Turks, the empty areas, such as Lika, Kordun, Slavonia were populated by Catholic and Orthodox groups. Now, from my understanding those groups were neither Croats or Serbs but the Vlach population. Later on, Bunjevci and Sokci became Croats and Orthodox Vlachs became Serbs.
This is interesting because it would explain the difference of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia in comparison to Serbs in Serbia. They're not the same people. But then again, are Bunjevci and Sokci really Croats? Where are they from? Is it possible that they are Delmats? The Illiyrian population of ancient Dalmatia?


What do you folks think about this?
 
You have a fair bit to go here in your understanding it would seem. First of all you have to understand who Vlachs are. In this context, Vlachs are the native Balkan population which was Romanized after basically the Balkan peninsula was conquered by the Romans 168 BC. Vlachs are the former Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Dacians etc. Their cooexistence with "arrived" slavs in the Balkans shows them only as a minor populace. For example the Decani Charter only puts them at about 10% maximum. The words which you speak are reflective mainly of a Croat/Bosniak bias which attempts to paint a picture of Serbs on Croat and Bosnian territiory as non-Serbian. Vlach influence is both exagerated and often incorrect by not considering it's fluid meaning when Vlachs are also meant as pastoralists. Your claim that Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia are different to other Serbs is not correct at all. The Serbs which are most different to the rest are actually the Torlaks of Serbia proper who are the most recent addition to the Serbian ethnos. A more distinct difference has been shown to exist in the Croat populace between north west Croats and the rest which frankly paints a picture of a lot of bullshit regarding Croat claims on genetics. Considering both the regional difference amongst Croats themselves and also the historical context of Hercegovina/Old Hercegovina & Montenegro, haplogroup I2a2 should be moreso associated with Serbs - if it must be associated with a Balkan ethnicity. Also Perisic's claim that it was born in the Balkans has already also been shown pretty much to be bs... although this would not exlude it from also being Vlach (Illyrian etc...).
 
I went to Macedonia, and it's an interesting issue concerning on where they look the most at. If you ask me it's a mix between Slavic and ancient Hellenes. But I'd have to go for the Slavic majority in Macedonia
 
Croatia, Bosnia, and Serbia have Cro-Magnon genes from both the original inhabitants and the subsequent Slavic invasions (which were a mixture of Cro-Magnon and R1a people, albeit mostly R1a). Serbs and Croats were some of the last Slavs to arrive, but seemed to be either the most numerous or most successful at carving out their own domain. Bosnia was mostly inhabited by a mix of the original inhabitants AND non-croat/serb Slavs. Bosnia was Catholic (with a Bogomil minority), and Herzegovina was Orthodox (with both Catholic and Bogomil minorities). Dalmatians in that respect are much more similar to Bosnians than to other Croats. During the rule of the Ottomans, Catholics were under far more pressure to convert to Islam than Orthodox populations. The vast majority of the Orthodox world was under the control of the Ottoman Empire, and their Patriarch remained in Constantinople/Istanbul and willingly promoted a relationship of mutual benefits. Catholic countries on the other hand were expanding in power and were for the most part independent and safe from Ottoman rule. If any country was going to hamper Ottoman goals, it was likely to be Catholic. The prospect of a brother-in-faith ally coming to their aid, also made Catholics the most likely group to rebel against Ottoman rule. The two only areas of the Ottoman empire that converted in huge numbers to Islam were CATHOLIC. Both Bosnia and Albania had Catholic majorities. The few Catholics that remained in Bosnia in the 1800s began to call themselves Croats due to the rising nationalism which was spreading throughout Europe after the Napoleonic wars and due their weak positions both in terms of number and national-identity (which became mostly supplanted by a new Ottoman/Bosnian hybrid). The Serbs in Bosnia were both migrants that came from Serbia to fill space at the Northern border of Bosnia (which became underpopulated due to Catholic Bosnians fleeing to Croatia/Hungary) and they were also the native Orthodox population of Herzegovina which began to consider themselves Serb due to the same conditions affecting the Croats above.
 
For some ppl here, history is what they like to see, not the state of facts. Unfortunately...
A cheap way to relax their souls.
 
For some ppl here, history is what they like to see, not the state of facts. Unfortunately...
A cheap way to relax their souls.
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Yup, that is true.
 
Menus said:
I think it is just simple the northen Croats and the serbs are brothers.
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in another thread , you say, albanains and serbs are same people and now its serbs and northern croats.............which is it?
 
Ok in the 16 to 17 century the Serbs were being settled in the parts that is now a border with the north croatia and bosnia by the Turks. So basicly after the Croats won some teritories from the turks and got the part of theyr land back they found serbian farmers there. So basicly over the time the Northern Croats (R1a) started to mix with those serbs up until the 1990s, but still some serbs remain iven today in that area.
 
I have noticed few things in Croatia how the Northeren croats treat the Dalmatians. Its like no other part of Croatia, they sometimes give more privilegions to Dalmatians then any other part. Like they give the Dalmatians a good football team Hajduk and invest lots of money there. Now the latest they iven move few universities from Zagreb to the Split, so the Elite dalmatian politicians can school thyer children, i must point very sneaky from Croats.

I also would like to point out to Croatians dont go to european union yet, yes am a german in eu and i know how stuf works. If you people join the EU the rest of the Europe will just buy your beatiful island and offshore beach, make fancy hotels in increadiable time, and then hire local people to work there.
That sounds great, but what sounds iven better is that Dalmatians themselfs took a hold of the goverment property and build the hotels themselfs, divide that betven theyr family members and can become some nice rich tajkuns. Sure it will take some more time to build the Hotels then the europeans but it will pay of on the long run belive me.
 
I'm quite surprised that some influence from east asia can be still seen nowadays in autosomal test in Croat or Serb
 
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/chapter-XII12.htm
Someone can confirm that what is written there is true?
Is it true that a lot of montenegrins have a redddish nuance at their beards,because this is what is telling there.
Is it true that a lot of montenegrins have their hair brown with a reddish nuance (called auburn)?
 
Croat said:
In 15th and 16th century when Croatia was pretty much cleansed by the Turks, the empty areas, such as Lika, Kordun, Slavonia were populated by Catholic and Orthodox groups. Now, from my understanding those groups were neither Croats or Serbs but the Vlach population. Later on, Bunjevci and Sokci became Croats and Orthodox Vlachs became Serbs.
This is interesting because it would explain the difference of Serbs in Croatia and Bosnia in comparison to Serbs in Serbia. They're not the same people. But then again, are Bunjevci and Sokci really Croats?
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i think you are partially right there. The people who settled empty areas like Lika, Kordun and parts of Slavonia were mixture of Serbs and Vlachs and not Vlachs only. Hence, increased E-V13. But big Vlach admixture holds for most of Serb settled areas except for Herzegovina where also in Serb parts I2a2-Din is much more dominant than E-V13. There was in fact a comparison between genetics of Bosnia and Herzegovina that illustrates this as in that comparison samples were not classified by nation but by region. But this is logical as Serbs did initially settle (south and east) Herzegovina and Croats north Herzegovina. Narentanes/Pagani who accepted catholicism and are now one part of Croats were originally recorded in history data as non-baptized Serbs.

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al...do imperio&hl=nl&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q&f=false

Genetic impact is always larger in places initially settled, than in areas later annexed. Therefore, I2a2-Din as dominant in Herzegovina (not just in Croats from Herzegovina).

But I think that proto-Serbs might have even brought some of E-V13 with them, as I guess they may origin from Scordisci who have previously lived in Serbia mixed with Illyrians (E-V13 people probably). Scordisci are tribal name with celtic ending -disci. Part of them who was thracanized were known as Serdi. In that respect I would mention that Sloveni/Slaveni (Slavs) are in history data from roman times also written with turning "s" into "sc" hence Sclaveni instead of Slaveni. When Roman empire expanded, Scordisci who lived along Danube naturally must have moved towards north. This is in fact confirmed by Russian primary chronicle that speaks of Danubian Slavs (Serbs, Croats and Carinthians(Slovenes) who moved to north to Lyakhs (Lechs or Poles I assume) once they were pushed out by spreading Roman empire.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were
called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians.
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http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

So Croats and Serbs did probably live in Pannonian plane and north Serbia prior to moving to north. Hence, Slavonia and perhaps Bosnia might have originally been Croat land, and north Serbia and Vojvodina Serb land. But they might have been celtic or ruled by celtic elite at the time.

In fact, originally, before Dardanians entered Europe from Asia minor, Scordisci also lived in south most Serbia (Kosovo) where Šar planina was named Scardus mountain after Scordisci.
 
how yes no 3 said:
But I think that proto-Serbs might have even brought some of E-V13 with them, as I guess they may origin from Scordisci who have previously lived in Serbia mixed with Illyrians (E-V13 people probably). Scordisci are tribal name with celtic ending -disci. Part of them who was thracanized were known as Serdi. In that respect I would mention that Sloveni/Slaveni (Slavs) are in history data from roman times also written with turning "s" into "sc" hence Sclaveni instead of Slaveni. When Roman empire expanded, Scordisci who lived along Danube naturally must have moved towards north. This is in fact confirmed by Russian primary chronicle that speaks of Danubian Slavs (Serbs, Croats and Carinthians(Slovenes) who moved to north to Lyakhs (Lechs or Poles I assume) once they were pushed out by spreading Roman empire.

In fact, originally, before Dardanians entered Europe from Asia minor, Scordisci also lived in south most Serbia (Kosovo) where Šar planina was named Scardus mountain after Scordisci.
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IIRC , it was said that E-V13 had no illyrian , but Thracian, Greek, Epirote and Dardanian , that is originally Dardanians where in northern asia minor near Troy.
I believe at the present in the bronze-agetime that Ilyrians where purely I2a and some G2 ( in the north), these illyrians moved from the danube area south ward clashed with the thracians moving east to west. The pannonian plateau was the melting pot.
The north westerly Illyrian being a mix of I2a and G2a3b1a3 L-640, while there "norici" raetian neighbours being G2a3b1a3 L-497 and the easterly raetians ( near switzerland) g2a3b1a1a L-13. Granted the slovenes IMO being not original slavs ( but becoming slavs after the Roman period) having this northern Illyrian mix of I2a and G2a as described.
Strabo notes that the breuni (illyrian ) after resided in the pannonian plane moved with the Genauni alongsize the Euganei camuni tribe ( raeti?/ligurian?) in the alps

As far as the scordisci , they would have arrived later on.

Italian maps
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuni

Have the breuni in the alps and there original people who remained in pannonia ( as Breuci ) still in the described locality
 
zanipolo said:
IIRC , it was said that E-V13 had no illyrian , but Thracian, Greek, Epirote and Dardanian , that is originally Dardanians where in northern asia minor near Troy.
I believe at the present in the bronze-agetime that Ilyrians where purely I2a and some G2 ( in the north), these illyrians moved from the danube area south ward clashed with the thracians moving east to west. The pannonian plateau was the melting pot.
The north westerly Illyrian being a mix of I2a and G2a3b1a3 L-640, while there "norici" raetian neighbours being G2a3b1a3 L-497 and the easterly raetians ( near switzerland) g2a3b1a1a L-13. Granted the slovenes IMO being not original slavs ( but becoming slavs after the Roman period) having this northern Illyrian mix of I2a and G2a as described.
Strabo notes that the breuni (illyrian ) after resided in the pannonian plane moved with the Genauni alongsize the Euganei camuni tribe ( raeti?/ligurian?) in the alps

As far as the scordisci , they would have arrived later on.

Italian maps
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breuni

Have the breuni in the alps and there original people who remained in pannonia ( as Breuci ) still in the described locality
Click to expand...

P
ersonally I do not Believe that E-V13 is Greek Thracian Troyan etc,

I Do not believe that neither is Neolithic in Balkans as in Iberian penninsula,

I believe that is Arcado-Cypriot that enters Balkans between 2500 -1500 BC, which already inhabited by J2 G2 and maybe I1,I2

the copper, at the times Iron did not exist, was stronger than any other known metal.

the case of Cadmus, brother of Phoenix (phoenicians) Aigyptos(Egypt) Father of Illyros, etc
as also the case of Ilos father of Dardanos and illyros father Daordo (Δαωρθω) gives clear view,

E-V13 is not Illyrian, not Thracian, Not Greek, especially not Troyan, Not Serb, primary,
but assimilated to all the above,
it is a pre-Mycenean,
the areas that is known as also the case of Dorian gives the expand of E-13 even to italy,
compare the word Mess-apia Messa-ra Mess-enia etc,

that is my personal believe, today E-V13 of Balkans belong to modern nations that are created in Balkans,
although I share only the case that E-13 is a mark, until where the Arcado-cypriots went.
an interesting Idea is that E-V13 is also strong among aromani(latin-speakers), which might lead us to Roman Armies, (5 Legion etc), that means that is much earlier,
 
I know is a little offtopic but:
Does anyone know some Y DNA tests for Montenegro?
On Eupedia section for Y DNA Montenegro is not present.
 
mihaitzateo said:
I know is a little offtopic but:
Does anyone know some Y DNA tests for Montenegro?
On Eupedia section for Y DNA Montenegro is not present.
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I2->31
E->27
R1b->9.4
J2->9.2
R1a->7.4
I1->6.2
G->2.5
Q->2.0
N->1.5
H->1.5
L->1.2

It is from the largest study made for Montenegro. About 405 haplotypes included.
 
Very weird how low the percentage of R1A is,and how high the percentage of E is in montenegrins Y DNA compared to serbians.
if you take as good the datas from Eupedia Y DNA table, lowest percentage of R1A from all countries in south-eastern Europe ,is in Montenegro,even lower than Albania.
 
As many users said before, the main difference between Croats and rest of "ex-yugoslavs" (except Slovenians) is croatian lack of E,J haplogroups which make a significant proportions in Serbs, Montenegrins, rep.Macedonians, and even Bosnians.

Croatians practically don't have E,J haplogroups, which is not case with other "ex-yugoslavs" (except slovenians) who have 30% to 40% of this three haplogroups.
 
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I also think so. Croats are one of the purest European ethnic groups.
Croatian genetic picture shows that they are not an admixture of various nations but a completely independent formation between southern Slavs.
 
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