Well, Albanian has a substantial amount of loanwords, so much is clear. But I've provided enough examples here at the beginning of 'native' words that are clearly derived from PIE without borrowings from elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
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Well, Albanian has a substantial amount of loanwords, so much is clear. But I've provided enough examples here at the beginning of 'native' words that are clearly derived from PIE without borrowings from elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
Illyria state included a few tribes placed in the south of the western Balkans (Autariates were noted in some sources as formers of this state). All authors have mentioned it in their writings to avoid misunderstanding, since all of them were using "Illyrians" for all of these people. Literacy was not some part of Illyrian culture so our knowledge about them came from Greek and Roman inscriptions. Illyrians were a tribe (Illyroi, Ilyrii) in present-day Albania for early Greek writers, they were several tribes in the age of Illyria state for later Greek writers (Authariates, Taulanti,...), they were tens of tribes for Roman writers in the age of forming Illyricum province of the Roman Empire.
Stipčević mentioned around 70 different tribes in his "Iliri" book. This article uses the name in the same manner as the authors of the sources so... for Liburni, Delmatae, Iapodes, Histrii, Daesitiaes, Maezaei, Dindari, Oseriates, Deuri, Daorsi, Vardaei and so on... Actually they didn't call themselves "Illyrians", neither the habitants of Illyria did (there's no proof)! That's how Greeks and Romans call them and so do we at present.
the way it stands regarding the Illyrian-Albanian issue is too simplistic. It states that scholars think Albanians are descended from Illyrians, or if not, then Dacians. However, most scholars now - even certain Albanologists from Albania- plainly state, that in fact we do not know where they are from. There is more evidence against an Illyrian origin than for it. So this article would be better if it clarified that whilst some theorists that Albanians descended from Illyrians (if we forget the 1000 year gap between the two groups) , in reality we do not know where they are from (due to lack of any significant Albanian chronicles or state in the Balkans).
The main part of Illyrians was probably formed of autochtonuous I1b, Thracians of E3b, proto-Greeks of J2. It's possible that Dorian migration was actually migration of some proto-Illyrians to the south east where they were lately Helenised during Iron Age. It gives explanation why many authors find ancient Macedones as "perfect" admixture of Illyrians, Greeks and Thracians. In the same place there is perfect admixture of I1b, E3b and J2 even at present. Modern Albanians fall into the same gene pool. Language doesn't help too much here because it's very unstable component in ethnogenesis processes,
Since albanian is most E then thracian seems the origin of albanians
Quote:
Originally Posted by zanipolo
well explained,
My arguments
Dorians and dorian language is clearly Greek the most Celtic-sound Branch of 4 Greeks dialects compare with Ionian which is more Anatolian
about Makedonians Iapetoc described a good and quite precise time event, in a simmilar thread
the problem is that E in Balkans is not Greek not Albanian not Thracian same as G
E is imported at the times of Cadmus probably around 2000 BC when copper (Κυπρος) trade was in its high,
E is possibly Levantine or south minor asian and connects exactly as time the history of Cadmus and Illyrus
G is south minor asian and probably an allie of Troyans
G fits exactly with the Hattians in minor asia
the most certain is that E expand to Illyria when Illyros invade or defend the Celtic that entered Illyria,
somewhere I read that Illyros tomb was an exhibit until Christians destroy it
that means that area of Upper Makedonia and parts of Illyria were habited by a non IE people,
for example in Cadmus capital thebes we found the Atalanti in Illyros we found the Taulanti and in Crete the Talos and meny other,
dorians and their language has nothinbg to do Illyria,
from their starting point infact we might say that they were R1a
although Linguistically they sound more Celtic
many scholars claim that Dorians was a Bryges sub-tribe
the move of E to Dardania can easily be explained with the invasion of Illyros and cadmus in Both Greece and Illyria,
while in case of Thracia is probably after Nova roma or even before from Epigoni times
Now about Makedonia and its cities-states or nations,
Makedonia has 2 Greek Branches The Argeiads, The Locri (Locri is probably the mother tribe of Dorians)
1 main tribe that Makedonian also recogn as Holy or Mother tribe the Bryges (especially their remnants the Mygdonians)
the Pelasgian remnants especially in Upper makedonia and Ematheia (Holy land, Mat-tio or mat-dias)
the thracian remnants like Pieri who worship Eorda or Arda and Sirris,
Meaning a family of Thracian tribes that are not that much connected with the odrysee ones or the tribali etc,
remember that Paeon is considered son Agrios meaning that these tribes like Paiones are Thracian but share more with Greeks
we might say of Greek influence.
the connection among Illyrians and Macedonians is that both had a simmilar ancestor ( in partial) , The around pelagonia E people,
in south of lake Lychnitis was Cadmus lands means more Thebeans (more Greek influenced) while in North was more Illyrian
meaning that southern Pelasgians accepted easily the Greek while Northerns accepted easily the Illyrian
on a general point you are correct that Makedonians were a mix of Greeks with Thracian and Pelagonians,
A core of Bottiaioi Thettaloi Argeiads Locri which allied or Unify Thracians and Pelagonians
Illyrian we might say that were relatives due to Pelagoanians.
the three words discussed in detail here - breg - deti - anije - are not loanwords, in fact deti and anije spoken by people in the pre-historic Balkans are preserved unchanged only in the Albanian language. We can see ANIE in ancient scripts.
let's continue with the topic.
Proto-IE features
The demonstrative pronoun *ko is ancestral to Albanian ky/kjo and English he.
English month new mother sister night nose three black red green yellow wolf Lithuanian mėnesis naujas motina sesuo naktis nosis trys juodas raudonas žalias geltonas vilkas Old Church Slavonic měsęcь novъ mati sestra noštь nosъ tri(je) črъnъ črъvenъ zelenъ žьltъ vlьkъ Czech měsíc nový matka sestra noc nos tři černý červený zelený žlutý vlk Ancient Greek μήν
mḗnνέος
néosμήτηρ
mḗterἀδελφή
adelphḗνύξ
nýksῥίς
rhísτρεῖς
treîsμέλας
mélasἐρυθρός
erythrósχλωρός
khlōrósξανθός
ksanthósλύκος
lýkosArmenian ամիս
amisնոր
norմայր
mayrքույր
k'uyrգիշեր
gišerքիթ
k'itերեք
yerek'սեւ
sevկարմիր
karmirկանաչ
kanačդեղին
deġinգայլ
gaylLatin mēnsis novus māter soror nox nāsus trēs āter, niger ruber viridis flāvus lupus Irish mí nuadh máthair siúr oidhche srón trí dubh ruadh glas buidhe faolchú Sanskrit māsa nava mātṛ svasṛ nakta/nish nasa tri kāla rudhira hari pīta vṛka
Some cognates with Illyrian:
- mal, "mountain"; cf. Alb mal
- bardi, "white"; cf. Alb bardhë
- drenis, "deer"; cf. Alb dre, dreni
- delme (sheep); cf. Alb dele (sheep)
- dard, "pear"; cf. Alb dardhë
- sīca, "dagger"; cf. Alb thikë or thika "knife"
- delme (sheep); cf. Alb dele (sheep)
- Ulc-, "wolf" (pln. Ulcinium); cf. Alb ujk "wolf":
- brisa, "husk of grapes"; cf. Alb bërsí "lees, dregs; mash" (< PA *brutiā)
- loúgeon, "pool"; cf. Alb lag, legen "to wet, soak, bathe, wash" (< PA *lauga), lëgatë "pool" (< PA *leugatâ), lakshte "dew" (< PA laugista)
- mantía "bramblebush"; Old and dial. Alb mandë "berry, mulberry" (mod. Alb mën, man)
- rhinos, "fog, mist"; cf. OAlb ren "cloud" (mod. Alb re, rê) (< PA *rina)
Early Greek loans
There are some 30 ancient-Greek loanwords in Albanian, of which some relate to north-western Doric Greek, which point to contacts with Doric colonies in Albanian coast and inland. Early Greek loanwords borrowed into Albanian mainly denoted commodity items and trade goods.
- mokër "millstone" < Doric Greek mākhaná "device, instrument"
- mollë "apple" < Doric Greek mālon "device, instrument"
- drapër "sickle" < Doric Greek drápanon
- kumbull "plum" < Doric Greek kokkúmelon
- brukë "Tamariske" < Doric Greek murikh
- trumzë "thyme" < Doric Greek thýmbrā, thrýmbrē
- lakër "cabbage, green vegetables" < Gk lákhanon "green; vegetable"
- presh "leek" < Gk práson
- bagëm "oil for anointment" < Gk báptisma "anointment"
- lëpjetë "orach, dock" < Gk lápathon
- bletë "hive; bee" < Greco-Latin < Gk (Attic) mélitta "honey-bee" (vs. Gk (Ionic) mélissa).
- çiklamin "purple" < Ancient Greek kyklā́mīnos
I've mentioned before, cognates of "Breg" exist in other branches of Indo-European (Celtic, Germanic, Italic, Armenian and Indo-Iranic), where the word generally means something related to "high" (or in the case of Latin, strong). Since the word is "Breg" in Albanian and not *breð or "Bredh" (which would be expected) this must be a loanword in Albanian, just like it is into the Slavic languages.Quote:
Originally Posted by kesi
If as you claim, these words have no cognates in other languages, we would have to expect them to be pre-Indo-European. I am very sceptical of that notion.
Could you cite or provide a link where you got that from? I'd be interested to see your source there.Quote:
We can see ANIE in ancient scripts.
Why did you cut off Albanian from that table? It's a very good example to show some of the "semantic anomalies" which I mentioned at the beginning: motër, verdhë, gjelbert.Quote:
let's continue with the topic.
There is also this Greek loanword:
The word above is interesting because it shows what I mentioned before that Classical Greek /tʰ/ was rendered as /t/ into Albanian.Quote:
trumzë "thyme" < Doric Greek thýmbrā, thrýmbrē
By the way, there is an etymology for "det":
"Shortening of dialectal dēt, from archaic dejt, dejët (Arbëreshë), from Proto-Albanian *deubeta, from pre-Albanian *dʰéubetos, enlargement of Proto-Indo-European *dʰeubos ‘deep’ (compare English deep, Lithuanian dubùs)."
Now 'deep' is a very good word to circumscribe the sea, isn't it?
For the record, the loss of intermediate /b/ is attested in Albanian, in particular from Latin loanwords:
Latin 'cubitus' ("cubit") > kut (yardstick)
Latin 'bubulcus' ("ploughman") > bujk (farmer)
Likewise, for "anije", I would suggest a relationship with the Albanian word 'enë' (dish).
Yes, i know albanian has lots of borrowings and maybe i'm blind or dumb but i couldn't find any post where you mentioned any native word directly from PIE.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taranis
1)So do you know any word in albanian that is directly from PIE?
2)'kut' is an albanian word?
3)Could you determine what language the word 'goja', 'mouth' english, is borrowed from? Or if it is from PIE without borrowing? (just my curiosity)
4)For smo like me who isn't an expert and knows nearly shit about languages can you explain in few words what Satem and Centum languages are?
Thanks, hope i didn't bother you.
As per #3 ...............goja is venetian slang for throat, the proper spelling is gola, but the l is what linguistics call the venetian vanishing l.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
so its pronounced ( go...ar ) The j in the Venetian alphabet ( italian does not have J ) is a y sound in the mainland , but can disappear in colonial Venet
Another example is the word for the city of Milano, its spelt Milan with a vanishing l , so its pronounced ( me ..arn )
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...ng%20l&f=false
One of the 5 dialects of Venetian is called Colonial venet and runs from istria to Montenegro, greek islands , so goja could be part of this.
I know of the word 'Gola' but also it is 'ingoia' which is 'swallow'. The sound J and I are very similar in albanian when prounced like U and Y so not rarely italian words from I have became a J.
Besides 'Gola' means throat, 'Ingoia' is swallow and 'Goja' is mouth. Could it be that 'ingoia' meant smth like 'in the mouth'? And during the times the word 'goia' was lost or became/got substituted by 'bocca' ?
Amongst the words mentioned earlier in this thread, I would like to explicitly mention the following words:Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
- motër (sister in Albanian, but "mother" in other IE languages)
- dhëlper ("fox", coming from PIE literally 'yellow one')
- dhëmb (tooth)
- gjeth (leaf)
- djeg (to burn)
- sjell (to turn)
- gjen (to find)
- qen (dog)
- qe (that)
- jap (to give)
- kap (to grasp)
- ari (bear)
- botë (world)
- qaj (to cry)
- basic numerals (një, dy, tre, katër, pesë, gjashtë, shtatë, tetë, nentë, dhjetë), but not the words for "hundred", which is in turn a compound word derived from Latin ('njëqind' = Alb. 'nje' = one + Lat. "centum' = "hundred").
(note that the list is obviously far from exhausted :smile: )
Yes, I've found it in Albanian dictionaries.Quote:
2)'kut' is an albanian word?
I will get back to that later.Quote:
3)Could you determine what language the word 'goja', 'mouth' english, is borrowed from? Or if it is from PIE without borrowing? (just my curiosity)
"Centum" and "Satem" describes a fundamental distinction (and sound laws) of the Indo-European languages, going back to the treatment of sounds found in Proto-Indo-European called the "palatovelars". These are usually labled:Quote:
4)For smo like me who isn't an expert and knows nearly shit about languages can you explain in few words what Satem and Centum languages are?
Thanks, hope i didn't bother you.
*k´ *g´ *g´h
The names "Centum" and "Satem" derive from the Latin (Centum) and Avestan (Satem) words for "hundred", which are representative of these sound laws and the two groups of languages inside Indo-European that are respectively Centum languages and Satem languages. In the Centum languages, these palatovelars are merged with the so-called 'plain' velars (*k, *g, *gh). In the Satem languagese, the palatovelars are instead turned into s/z/sh-like sounds.
Centum languages include:
- the Celtic languages
- the Germanic languages
- the Italic languages (Latin and the modern Romance languages)
- Greek
- Tocharian (an extinct language spoken in western China)
Satem languages include:
- the Baltic languages
- the Slavic languages
- Dacian and Thracian
- Albanian
- Armenian
- the Indo-Iranic languages
In Albanian *k´ generally becomes "th", whereas *g´ and *g´h become "dh" (there are a few additional rules, which I elaborated on earlier in this thread).
I mentioned Venetian due to their ownership of Durres and other albanain lands during the late middle ages, I did not mention Italian because the only time Italy owned albania was during Mussolini. If you claim its Italian then the albanian word goja is modern and nothing to do with the conversationQuote:
Originally Posted by Endri
EDIT : I forgot to mention that people alter words that they accept from another language and use it for something else.
example - The Illyrian word for snake is BRISA, the venetian word is BISA ( in italian its serpente ), yet the venetian used BRISA for their word to slide (as in snake ) , that word is SBRISA, so tribes do require to change new words and create another
1) Under Venetian rule was much more than just Durres. The area around Scodra since Ottoman times was always under Venetian rule.
2) I'm not talking about Italian but Latin. Since there already are a lot of words with Latin origin maybe 'ingoia' is e remnants of latin and 'goia' is latin or old latin or some latin at a period of time that means 'mouth' since the 'I' is much simpler to become the albanian 'J' then a missing sound in Venetian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
fair enough
Taranis
1) About 'kut'. Didn't know it existed. Apparently it does. Weird word.
2)'leaf' is 'gjethe' and not 'gjeth'
3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'
3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.
interestingQuote:
Originally Posted by zanipolo
so it reach until Pontus mountains
the Greek pontian for Neck are 2 the original Greek laimos and also Γουλα Gula and drinking is Gulia
I did not expect it to reach so far in North east Turkey !!!!!
amazing
Well, that was a typo on my end. It was supposed to be 'gjethe' indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
Sorry, yes. It was supposed to be 'që'. An innocent mistake on my side, I forgot the diaeresis/umlaut. :ashamed2:Quote:
3)'qe'-->'that' you mean 'që'??? Cause for 'qe' i can only think of
3.1) 'qe' (verb) which means 'It was'
This is interesting. I didn't know about this word, but the possibility is actually that this is a Germanic loanword. There is a Proto-Indo-European word for "cattle" (*gwōus), of which "Ka"/"Kau" might be a cognate. If the word was native Albanian, it would be rendered as something akin to 'ga-'. The development of *g > *k is something found in Germanic. The word might be of Gothic or otherwise East Germanic origin.Quote:
3.2) 'qe' (noun) which is plural for the word 'ka-u'. 'ka' (indefinite form) or 'kau' (definite form) is the male of the 'cow'. It is archaic albanian form rarely used.
Regarding "Arbëresh" and "Albanians", there certainly is the possibility that the two words are related! Isn't there a shift from /n/ > /r/ in the Tosk dialect (and thus Standard Albanian?). If yes, one can speculate if the ancient form might have been something akin to "Arbenes", which might be a cognate with the "Albanoi" found in ancient Greek source. At least, this is a preliminary a hypothesis on my side. :smile:
'ka' and 'qe' are old words, now outdated unfortunately and are also the only words in albanian which i've seen written with an accent in the end, like the italian accent.
'Arbër' and 'Arbëresh' are two different things. 'Arbër' was Albania medieval name and 'Arbëresh' are the albanians who emigrated in the 15 century to the kingdom of Naples, and the inhabitants of albania in middle ages. So the name of the country/region ect was 'Arbër'. I'm kinda surprised you didn't know this since only slavs call use 'Skiptars'. Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.
Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'
-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?
-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?
this link might help - ancient indo-european dialects/languages
There is an albanian chapter
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=...page&q&f=false
Don't forget the name Biscia, "grass snake" and "water snake" in standard italian. Has it the same origin?Quote:
Originally Posted by zanipolo
What I was taught isQuote:
Originally Posted by julia90
Biscia and Vipere are different classes of snakes
Biscia have round pupils, oval head and are not poisonous.
Vipere have slant pupils, trianglular heads and are poisonous
Maybe you mixing sea-snake with an EEL , which in italian is Anguilla and in venetian is Bisato
it's not eel, on word reference i've found the transaltion Biscia= Grass Snake mostly but sometimes water snakeQuote:
Originally Posted by zanipolo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_snake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grass_snake
a grass snake
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rix_persa3.jpg
a water snake
http://www.blogcdn.com/www.diylife.c...ater-snake.jpg
Well, "Skip-" is approximately what the ancient Albanian form of the word "Shqip-" would have looked like. (Consider that the k > q shift in Albanian is a fairly late innovation, which in my opinion occured after the 500 AD)Quote:
Originally Posted by Endri
As I said, I wonder if the root 'Arbër' is related with the word "Albanoi" recorded in Antiquity.Quote:
Greek call us 'Alvanoi' or smth like that (idk greek) also "Arvanitika' which were the orthodox albanians in the Northern Greece who fought for Greece independence Turks called us during the occupation 'Arnauts' and the Latin name 'Albania'. 'Shqipëria' most likely started to get used after Scanderbeg times cause of the Byzantine Eagle on his flag which is our national flag today, and probably got used by the people as a way to remember the history and is also one of the facts that shows continuity from Scanderbeg time.
Anyway to summarize 'Arbër'-'Albania'-'Alvanoi'-'Arvanitika'-'Arnaut' all meaning 'Albania' (modern) and 'Shqipëria'
My best idea is that it could be from PIE 'gel-' (to devour). In that case, it could be a cognate with:Quote:
-Also 'Goja'. Any idea where from?
- German 'Kehle' (jowl, throat)
- Latin 'gluttire' (to swallow, compare 'glutton')
Yes, absolutely. Modern Albanian 'ujk' derives from an earlier "ulk-" (which, interestingly enough, is preserved in the ancient Illyrian town name 'Ulcinum'), which derives from the even earlier PIE word "Ulkwos".Quote:
-Since words like 'dhelpër' and 'ari' are PIE, the word 'ujk', 'wolf' english, is also PIE?
We are left with quite a paradoxial situation here:
- on the one hand, Albanian has a lot of words which it seems to share with Illyrian (or, which at least occur in an Illyrian context)
- on the other hand, there are strong arguments against the relationship with Illyrian, including the fact that it was a Centum language where Albanian is Satem, and that the fact Illyrians had a sophisticated naval culture where (modern) Albanian seems to be lacking in naval terms (instead we find loanwords and circumdescriptions).
The question, of course, is how to solve this discrepancy?
Hi everybody. I am new here but I would try to contribute as much as I can :D
Here is a link that may explain the link between PIE and Albanian words.
starling.rinet.ru I hope you would find it useful.
Taranis
Regarding Albanian being Satem and Illyrian being Centum, from some of my readings in the net, I've understood that there is not enough knowledge about the Illyrian to determine that. Also Albanian can behave sometimes as Centum and is not clear-cut that Albanian is Satem, so it falls in between. Lately the linguists cannot agree in the division between Satem and Centum if I am correct!!
I will agree with you when you state that Albanian has many words shared with Illyrian. You also should add that Albanians live in the territory described as Illyrian proprie dicti(check the spelling) or as real Illyrian. Furthermore I should add that there is no major migration movement recorded in that area since the Roman Empire with the exception of Slav movement, also there is continuity in that area. We also should agree in a proven point that the Albanian have borrowed from Latin since the 1 century BC and before that from Greeks. ( I need to check when were the Dacians, Thracians and Macedon’s concurred by the Romans).
So the only controversy should be the naval terms although not everything is borrowed.
So you have Pro and Cons, but the Pro outweigh the Cons
starling.rinet.ru to this add /new100/alb.pdf
Cannot post links since I am new over here