@Sile, I don't agree when you say that today DNA tell us the same that north illyrians were different whith south illyrians, because you don't have today north or south illyrians, all illyrians are colected in today Albania, even that there are some illyrian blood or dna in slavic and greek populations, from the assimilation process in a part of illyrians... so that blood is a mix and don't represent the illyrians south or north as it was. So, don't take an example of south slavic DNA as a whole, like an ancient illyrian DNA...
Also, the links whith dacians and albanians that you had find, are are understandable because dacians were from Thracian, or for someone they were Illyrians too, but if we go deeply in this question, we can see that Thracian and Illyrians can be the same people... that's why and for albanians scientists think that they are the direct Thraco-Illyrians descendant.
But I agree that there were differences in illyrian tribes itself, every tribe has their own history but I dont agree that south Illyria was from today Montenegro to Epir, this was later, when illyrians started to draw themself... because there was an illyrian tribes in Asia minor too (these can be considered as south illyrians, or south-east if you want
@ Elias2
Where were all these albanians than (and if
history and legend affort no record that they were migrated from somewere and all those cultural links, in the broad sense of this word, whith ancient cultures of the same region), if not in central Illyria or drawn in the mountains from greek invasions (colony) from south, and slavic too from north ?!
+ Read
National Geographic:
"Thus pressed back, The Illyrian, Epirot and Macedonians clans consolidated themself in what geography knows as Albania"
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...025107341_100001133356751_532598_934157_n.jpg
or
Britannica:
"The albanians are the most ancient race in southeastern Europe. History and legend affort no record of their arrival in Balkan peninsula"
http://oi53.tinypic.com/jhcvf5.jpg
+ Read Britannica
(from Illyria to Albania) about this period:
http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/12472/Albania/42643/The-Byzantine-Empire
"The tribes of southern Illyria, however—including modern Albania—averted assimilation and preserved their native tongue..."
"In the course of several centuries, under the impact of Roman, Byzantine, and Slavic cultures, the tribes of southern Illyria underwent a transformation, and a transition occurred from the old Illyrian population to a new
Albanian one..."
"As a consequence, from the 8th to the 11th century, the name Illyria gradually gave way to the name, first mentioned in the 2nd century ce by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria, of the Albanoi tribe, which inhabited what is now central Albania. From a single tribe the name spread to include the rest of the country as Arbëri and, finally, Albania. The genesis of Albanian nationality apparently occurred at this time as the Albanian people became aware that they shared a common territory, name, language, and cultural heritage..."
I enjoy to answer you whith books
The native Illyrians and Thracians of the occupied regions retired into the mountains, where they remained unnoticed till the eleventh century, when they emerged as Albanians and Vlachs
Studies on the demography of the Byzantine empire: collected studies - "ETHNIC CHANGES IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY" - PETER CHARANIS
I can transmit you all day materials, but you are poisoned whith hate, that's why you accept easily the propaganda in relation to your subjectivity... so it's all vain for you to learn something new (for you), because your mind is closed in this subject.
...it's so boring to talk whith someone like you. I asked you by the way to reply me about the last pages, not when I talk to you like in MSN in the last reply, not when I talk to you in subjective level (about wether for example), but i transmit you objective evidences that are waiting for you in last pages... you already have all the answers, and you pass them like nothing was transmited!
The answer of your claims are here (not to be repeated):
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page5
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page2
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page4
+... for the origin, language, race, culture of the Albanians
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.139407142773730.23767.100001133356751&l=5e6b160e5a&type=1
I see that you have problem whith learning... If you don't have something personal (like it can be hate against a nation, or race, or culture....) than i have to teach you this: First, you have to open your mind about new sources... than stop for e while and reflect... think... than make a stand in relation to what you've learned... what is still relative whith other new sources... so proceed to have an open mind...
You:
DNA; "evidence" is mute because you think slavs eradicated albanians from the former yugoslavia, this is your #1 dream, and #1 reason your theory holds no water.
Me:
When the south slavs came from the VII century, there were living indigenous people, called Illyrians. So that area wasn't empty - Even that gradualy many illyrians become slavic, but they (as e big culture) did not disappeared completely from the earth... there are linguistic (like latin and greek influence in albanian language that meand albanians were there in that time + some names, toponyms, hidronyms wich survive the changing from the invaders... + measured with the comparative model of albanian language whith others + etymology = albanian/illyrian the same language), cultural (gods or paganism, symbols, songs, clothing...), race (the same dinaric + alpic and mediterranean race), dna, etc, that links directly albanian whith illyrian people. Sorry that albanians have to represent them, but these are evidences (linguistical, cultural, historical, antropological, folklor, geographical, and logic too if you want...) :S
You:
take a look at the chart again, and look at albania and compaire it to bosnia, vastly different;
Me:
Of course that there mustbe differences, because Illyrians(albanians) and slavs(bosnians), are not the same people, but the haplotypes in common what they have, are as a result of part of assimilated Illyrians into the Slavic nation...
...this phenomenon has continued and still continues today in that line what are meeting the Slavs and Albanians... and assimilation is made only in one side, from an albanian to slavic (as conquering force that has the greatest impact in population). In my contry (Macedonia) for example, only in few last years, we have lost cities wich were full with albanians (like Monastir, Kumanovo, Ohrid, Prespa, even Skopje, Struga, etc. and some continue to be pressed back in albanian territory, some others change their nationality in slavic, whith the help of the church. All orthodox albanians in Macedonia were change their ethnicity in slavic, just like them in Greece)
You:
Secondly, thats alot of statesments with no evidence to back it up. I'll re-iterate; the first written acknowledgment of albanians in albania came from the middles ages. Written acknowledgment of albanians in Southern italy are also in the middles ages
Me:
If you want to confuse the fisrt book in albanian language in 15 century, whith history of albanian people or albanian language, than you are illiterate in these questions. Although many have already deciphered ancient pelasgian inscriptions whith the Albanian language...
...anyway, antiquity of a language is measured with the comparative model. For example, the etymology is part of this measurement (do you heard sometimes about smalles semantic units that shape meaning of other words?)... and the result is:
+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.ne...502372261_100001133356751_66233_7852111_n.jpg
Page 45
It will be easier to confirm our opinion on the origin of Albanian Pelasgian, since this language is kept constant in his greatest traits over the centuries until today, according to historical facts.
As already predicted the German scientist Muller, Albanian will give us the key to the solution of several problems related to linguistic and ethnographic literature Greco-Latin.
Appointed Pelaka Skype or by Albanians living in Epirus, Albania, Macedonia and Italy, Arber by Albanians in Greece, this dialect is formed from a few thousand words and monosyllables bisyllabic, roots dry and arid without prefixes or suffixes some exceptions.
Excluding neopelasgian words, Latin or Greek, Turkish, Slavic or other, the skeleton appears in its nakedness idiom hard, almost eolodorien or wind, approaching all-in-fact of dialects in the epigrams etched old, or sung by the rhapsodies and Aedes oldest Greek.
Page 49
Rhapsodies in Homer, despite all the corrections implied by the Athenians, we find many words in use among the Homeric Albanians, which argues for the antiquity of the Albanians.
Page 57
The Albanians finally mourn their dead in the Homeric way women (date, the Albanian-oAoXu xXatmoi;, oXoXi5Ço>), repeating the words izi, oïzi = black, unhappy.
Homer used this word once oizôc Curiously, the word zi, Zia returned to each moment in the archaic inscription found on Lemnos, cited by the Honourable Dr. Apostolides.
This word means in Albanian sepulchral still mourning and phrase na zia erd wind that we came into mourning.
What makes some scientists argue that the language of the inscription resembles Albanian, this relic of Pelasgian, especially as the island of Lemnos was home exclusively to the Pelasgians until the time of Miltiades, who occupied
Conclusion:
The inclusion of the island of Lemnos has been written in language Pelasgian, the Pelasgians were not completely absorbed and they are back with their descendants, shqiptar or Albanians, as well as history and linguistic prove.
http://books.google.com/books?id=qFgaAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA57&dq=%3A+l%27inscription+de+l%27%C3%AEle+de+Lemnos+a+d%C3%BB+%C3%AAtre+%C3%A9crite+en+langue+p%C3%A9lasgienne%2C+les+P%C3%A9lasges+n%27ayant+pas+%C3%A9t%C3%A9+compl%C3%A8tement+absorb%C3%A9s+et+nous+les+retrouvons+chez+leurs+descendants%2C+les+Albanais+ou+Skypetare&lr&ei=CxDzS6bhL4WyywTWk8X6DA&cd=1#v=onepage&q=%3A%20l%27inscription%20de%20l%27%C3%AEle%20de%20Lemnos%20a%20d%C3%BB%20%C3%AAtre%20%C3%A9crite%20en%20langue%20p%C3%A9lasgienne%2C%20les%20P%C3%A9lasges%20n%27ayant%20pas%20%C3%A9t%C3%A9%20compl%C3%A8tement%20absorb%C3%A9s%20et%20nous%20les%20retrouvons%20chez%20leurs%20descendants%2C%20les%20Albanais%20ou%20Skypetare&f=false
- For more linguistic evidences, see also page nr. 4 in this topic:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page4
- From the second page in this topic, i transmit you houndreds of BOOKS! ... which came from american, german, french, english, italian even from slavic and greek scientist, who write against your way of thinking here, but you pass them silently to say something in your own, just because you wanna transmit hate here and nothing else !
You:
Records; what records did you have that connect albanians with Illyrians?
Me:
See the illyrians ties whith albanians in the last page
You:
Archeaological, you show a statue wearing a dress from an ancient greek city and you say its Illyrian, I don't need to comment on this.
Me:
I will comment... Fustanella is greek ?! when all the world knows that is an albanian traditional costume of the all Albanians, latter was in use only by Tosk Albanians(until today).
Search about Fustanella - http://www.google.com/#q=the%20Alban...6d7fcb6d497136 ...{"fustan"-dress in albanian (and in no other language); "funt/d"-the lower part of the dress; "an"-side (or the lower side of the dress - Fustanella), also fút (whith accent at "u"), is the name of that type of clothing, which we put forward at the bottom of the body, when we have to work something.... like freemasons today}...
You:
I just think albanian ethos is foreign, much like turkish, hungarian, ect.
Me:
Info + In this evidence, turks are that part of illyrian or pelasgian dna, what were assimilated in new comers ethnicity, so is not talking about mongols
The Encyclopædia britannica- a dictionary of arts, sciences ... Volume 1 Pg. 483
And the new trend that I see in the anti-Albanian propaganda is dividing the name Albanian from Shqiptar, because speaking in the name of albanians have some problem whith albanian name in ancient time... and now what to do? - Let's take the name Shqiptar, how albanians call themself in their language, because this name can be better to atack maybe :S
But you don't know why albanians call themself shqiptar (sons of the eagle). That's because albani tribe, was one tribe of illyrians... and albanians today are a result of illyrians, macedonians and epirotes tribes (pelasgians)... and the name albani is not properly presented them. But sons of the eagle have to do whith this:
or
+ The oldest surviving inhabites are Albanians, descedants of group of people known as Illyrians, the Thracians and the Dacians: https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/75670_147272011987243_100001133356751_224000_7259340_n.jpg
Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances
Dorothy Margaret Vaughan
And let's finish whith this one for today
If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
http://books.google.com/books?id=tP...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA
... even that and the name Albani, is used in the antiquity about the same old people of Europe, like Albanians in Scotland and so many other places around the Mediterranean, like Maciamo said in the first page: "...the Indo-European R1b people supposedly arrived in Albania around 2100 BCE, during the Maliq III culture... the Bronze Age reached Scotland almost exactly at the same period. Both could be offshoots from the Unetice culture from Central Europe. Who knows, perhaps this common source of IE people called themselves "Alba" ?
Also, about maps, you have to understand that they don't describe the autochthony always, but they are the result of expensions (invasions). We have survival history and as you go deeper in time, will see that our territory is larger. Restriction (contraction) of our territory is continuous occurrence since prehistory, we can't boast with any map, except the oldest ones that comfort us a little bit (because contraction is lower).
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...a.110082529039525.4389.100001133356751&type=1
We have also occupations maps that there is no Albania, but this does not mean that there was no Albanian ...
In fact these are maps that invasions are documented. Even just on the basis of maps of this kind, neighbors claim territories. And not whith autochthony.
P.S.:
I'll tell you something: Albanians have a surviving history and they don't care about history, or to tell you who were, or to know more about these things... Albanian nationalism is 0... that's why these people who still survived remained around separated borders from the year 1913 (for the last time that we were divided), still can't make their natural state, to reach the point (o)zero, like every nation in Europe, because now we are in - (minus). The institutions don't care about these things too... the primary task about us was to survive from invaders... and now is to make money, because the poverty has been a permanent problem about us, this fact make terrain about predatory neighbors, to continue with their claims to take the whole country.
I'm interesting about history, only because I am angry whith the poor anti-albanian propaganda which circulates from the southern Slavs and Greeks, only because they still want to tear apart the territory of the Albanians wich is left and the right of autochthony make nervous the predatory neighbors.
...but these studies about the language, culture, symbolism, antropology, history of the albanians... are done from foreign scientists (Germans, French, British, Americans, Italians, and even some truth seekers Slavic and Greek scientists). They have observed a very old language, very ancient symbolism, old race and very old model of culture at all, of these survival people that are trying to Self-isolate themself in mountains, from permanent invasions. But if for the scientists albanians are treasure, guarded from the modern deformation, the dark side of this fact is the ignorance of the survivors and cultural inclination/trend/propensity what is recorded in DNA and have to pass more than 6,000 years to alter fundamentally
