The Laz

foryouandme

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hello everyone i'm new here not sure which forum to post this in

i've been trying to search for the origins of this ancient ethnic group from the Caucasus but it seems that nobody really knows where they came from before they lived in the Caucasus and I would like to know if any y-dna and mtdna has actually been done. if anyone knows i'd much appreciate it.
 
I would apreciate it too my friend because I'm of half Pontic Greek origin and I think that Pontic Greeks are a mix of Greeks,Armenians and aboriginal Pontians(Caucones/Kashka) who probably were close to some modern Georgians especialy Laz.
 
not sure Laz people are actually ancestors to Georgians of today...
there are still Laz people...

The Laz language (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena; Georgian: ლაზური ენა, lazuri ena, or ჭანური ენა, č'anuri ena, also chanuri ena; Turkish: Lazca) is a South Caucasian language (also known as Kartvelian language) spoken by the Laz people on the Southeast shore of the Black Sea. It is estimated that there are around 30,000[1] native speakers of Laz in Turkey, in a strip of land extending from Melyat to the Georgian border (officially called Lazistan until 1925), and about 2,000 in Georgia.[1]
...
The Laz people live in a geographic area which they refer to as Lazona (ლაზონა). Today, the entire area is part of the Republic of Turkey. Its history dates back to at least the 6th century B.C. when the first South Caucasian state in the west was the Kingdom of Colchis which covered modern western Georgia and modern Turkish provinces of Trabzon and Rize.
...
The Laz in Georgia are chiefly centered in the country's southwestern autonomous republic of Adjara. The largest Laz villages in Adjara are: Sarpi, Kvariati, Gonio and Makho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

I think Laz people were in some still unclear way distantly related to early Slavs..

In Laz language word Supara means book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

Procopius claims that Slavs were first called Spori.. some historians did see Spori as corruption of tribal name Serbs...
tribal name Sloveni (Slavic people) is derived from word "slovo" = letter (alphabet letter not mail)


Sorbs (also known as Wends and Lusatians), small Slavic nation that lives in east Germany, call themselves Serbja, but are by Serbs called Luzicki Srbi (Lusatian Serbs)

In Sorb language local river in their area is called Laz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohsa

in Romania river Laz is tributary of river Sebis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_River_(Sebiş)

Sebis river is tributary of Crişul Alb and this one of Koros river
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crişul_Alb_River

nearby river is named Sebes-Koros
Crişul Repede (Romanian Crişul Repede; Hungarian Sebes-Körös) is a river in Bihor county, Crişana, Romania and in southeastern Hungary (Körösvidek).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebes-Körös



Dienekes in his autosomal DNA tests finds that south Slavs have significant part of DNA shared with Lezgin people.... I think this is related to tribal name Laz... tribal name might also be related to Sarmatian Lazyges...

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/multidimensional-scaling-in-italy.html

Serbs and Croats are by many considered to be originally Sarmatian tribes...

btw. note this
The Turkish public uses the name "Laz" in a general way to refer to all inhabitants of Turkey's Black Sea provinces east of Samsun, and the word is often associated with certain social stereotypes.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people

Turkey's Black sea coast east of Samsun is area where Paphlagonia Eneti used to live... and later Veneti are considered to be ancestors of Slavic people... as Jordanes claims that early Slavs are of Veneti race....

town Trebizond is in Turkish called Laz
Trabzon (Turkish: Trabzon, Pontic Greek: Τραπεζούντα, Trapezounta, Armenian: Տրապիզոն Trapizon, Ottoman Turkish: طربزون, Laz: ტამტრა Tamtra),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebizond

town Trebinje is in area of original Serbs settlement in Hercegovina in Balkan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebinje

in prehistoric pre-Celtic IE speaking Iberia Lusitani live relatively close to Seurbi..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

state of Lazica is Colchis..Laz people were one of many tribes living there...

Colchis was inhabited by a number of related but distinct tribes whose settlements lay chiefly along the shore of the Black Sea. The chief of those were the Machelones, Heniochi, Zydretae, Lazi, Chalybes, Tabal/Tibareni/Tubal, Mossynoeci, Macrones, Moschi, Marres, Apsilae, Abasci,[20] Sanigae, Coraxi, Coli, Melanchlaeni, Geloni and Soani (Suani). These tribes differed so completely in language and appearance from the surrounding nations that the ancients provided various theories to account for the phenomenon.
...
The chief towns were Dioscurias or Dioscuris (under the Romans called Sebastopolis, now Sukhumi) on the seaboard of the Euxine, Sarapana (now Shorapani), Phasis (now Poti), Pityus (now Pitsunda), Apsaros (now Gonio), Surium (now Vani), Archaeopolis (now Nokalakevi), Macheiresis, and Cyta or Cutatisium or Aia (now Kutaisi), the traditional birthplace of Medea. Scylax mentions also Mala or Male, which he, in contradiction to other writers, makes the birthplace of Medea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis

note the interesting town name change from Surium to Vani...
Surium is related to tribal name Serians (and later Serbs) Vani is related to Veni (Finish name for Russians is Venäläiset) and Veneti

in Turkey Laz people live in close proxmity of Kurds

variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

Dialects.jpg


manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it...

Seneca speaks of Serians living in Asia, in Caspian highlands, on red sea, and around Danube in Europe...

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html



I do count Kurds (together with Pastun Sarbans) in people whose ancestors are Serians of Asia , and think of Serians of Europe as ancestors of I2a2 Serbs(and also of Germanic haplogroup I people in much more distant past)... and I think that tribal name Kurds might be of same origin as tribal names Serbs and Sarbans (Pastun tribe that has some haplogrouop I)

Kurds are people who carry some haplogroup I....also island of I2a (I2a2 is most common haplogroup in Serbs and I2a1 in Sardinians) exist in Asia minor and is located among Kurds

Germani tribal name can be traced back to province Kerman of Persia, Iran
Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province

250px-Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png


and this is where spread of haplogroup I probably started...

I.png



nearby area in Farsi province in Persia is called Sarvestan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvestan

Farsi province
250px-Locator_map_Iran_Fars_Province.png


http://maps.google.com/maps?q=29.26....267233,53.261719&spn=25.913743,46.538086&z=5

Sarvestan is often related to Serbs in iranian theories of Serb origin...
word Sarve means cedar(cypress) and in those theories it was about cedar/cypress being holy tree and Serbs getting name as protectors of holy tree....

Slavic people have oak as holy tree (same as Celtic people)
but interestingly Srem (known also as Syrmia with key ancient town being Sirmium) is area in Pannonia split between modern Serbia and Croatia, and its coat of arms originally contained cypress tree....

Srem. The third coat of arms is that of Srem, granted in 1747 by Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. The modern Croatian county of Vukovar-Syrmia uses the same coat of arms. The three white stripes on blue, representing the three rivers of Srem: Bosut, Sava and Danube. The deer that is resting on the ground is close to the poplar (topola) green tree. The tree changed though the history. In the original grant the tree was a cypress tree. The modern Croatian design preferred it to make it an oak tree, which is abundant in the region and is a kind of a national symbol. Similarly, poplar is connected to Serbia (the royal family stems from a place named Topola).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Vojvodina

in Serbian version cypress is replaced in modern times with poplar tree because Karadjordje who started uprising against Turks and person from whom Serbian royal family Karadjordjevic origins was elected to be leader of uprising in place called Topola ( = poplar tree)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplenac

note that Srem is also in area where Sarmatian Iazyges lived...

They were divided into freemen and serfs (Sarmatae Limigantes). These serfs had a different manner of life and were probably an older settled population, enslaved by nomadic masters. They rose against them in 34 AD, but were repressed by foreign aid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

those "serfs" who are previous people who lived there are Celtic Scordisci...whose Thracianized version is known as Serdi.... in my opinion, Scordisci are best candidate for Serians of Europe as they did live around Danube...

btw. interesting is to note that in Srem is mountain Fruska gora
The mountain Fruška Gora ("Frankish monuntain" in Serbo-Croatian) got its name after the old Serbo-Croatian name for Frankish people - Fruzi (Frug=Frank, Fruzi=Franks, fruški=Frankish).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrmia

Frug / Fruzi = Frank/Franks makes us wonder about Franks being Phrygians in origin as is claimed in their theory of origin

Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans.
An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Maeotis, now Sea of Azov, and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks


....

now, back to relation with Germani and Kurds....

Cimmerians are known as Gimmri

The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimerians

Cimmerians are also known as Gomer

Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[2] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[3] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
The Hebrew name Gomer is widely considered to refer to the Cimmerians (Akkadian Gimirru, "complete"), who dwelt on the Eurasian Steppes[4] and attacked Assyria in the late 7th century BC. The Assyrians called them Gimmerai ; the Cimmerian king Teushpa was defeated by Assarhadon of Assyria sometime between 681 and 668 BC.[5]
...
According to tractate Yoma, in the Talmud, Gomer is identified as the ancestor of the Gomermians, modern Germans.
....
Three sons of Gomer are mentioned in Genesis 10, namely
Ashkenaz
Riphath (spelled Diphath in I Chronicles)
Togarmah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer

Japheth is ascribed seven sons: Gomer, Magog, Tiras, Javan, Meshech, Tubal, and Madai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

402px-Noahsworld_map.png


now, location of Gomer people does match location of Kurds and of I2a
Haplogroup_I2a.gif


in thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341
I have shown that early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 people

Russian primary chronicle
After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf


Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)


in Turkish language words for wolf are Kurt and Zampara
(from google translate)

similarity of words Kurd/Kurt indicates that Turkish word Kurt might have come to existenc due to Kurds being related to wolf

from thread about origin of Serbs you can see link to wolf also present in relation to Serb, Lech and possibly also original meaning of Veneti tribal name...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367056#post367056

1) Serbs come from land of Boiki that neighbours Frankia and white Croatia where they also originally dwellt
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

2) Serbs and Croats were there called 'white'
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

3) Vindelici means 'white' in Celtic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici

4) Boiki, Bavaria, Bohemia - all derived from Boii tribal name, as Boii lived there from always
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria

5) Sorviodurum was town in Bavaria part of Rhaetia on border with Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

close to it in Bohemia are two places with name Srby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District)


6) early Slavs are of Veneti race
Jordanes
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

7) Vindelici probably Venetic people related to Liburnians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici


8) Chief tribe of Vindelici is Licates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium

9) word "Licos", meaning "rock" or "slab". Cognates in modern Celtic languages are Leac (Irish), Llech (Welsh) and Lec'h (Breton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_regiments_of_the_Roman_army

10) Lika is big area in Croatia settled by both Serbs and Croats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika

11) eponymous ancestor of Poles is Lech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech_and_Rus



12)leader of Cimbri is Boiorix (ruler of Boii)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

13) leader of Licyans is Sarpedon (ruler of Sarpes?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia



14) national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

15) Lycia is related to wolves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

16) Veneti tribal name might origin from word wolf
as Pictish tribe "Venicones" = wolves / hunting dogs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venicones

The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[6] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greek κτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[7] However, this word is generally derived from Celtic *Kombroges, meaning compatriots,[8] and it is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri.[9] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning "rim", i.e. the people of the coast,.[10] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

in the end, Thraco-Cimmerians are found on locations above Black sea, on north shores of Carpatians but also locations of Scordisci along Danube, and direction of Thraco-Cimerrians spread is visible towards Cimbri areas in Denmark... they are also found in area of lower Danube that matches Tribali tribes... curiously Serbs were identified with Tribali in Byzantine sources...

Triballi

250px-Triballi_territory.jpg


Scordisci

Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png


entity_94.jpg

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.html

Thraco-Cimmerians

Thraco-Cimmerian.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

Thraco-Cimmerians do show very good correlation with spread of early Slavs

Origins_500A.png


both thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs show correlation in spread with I2a2 ...
and interestingly those are also areas of earlier neolithic western linear pottery

800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif
 
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I would apreciate it too my friend because I'm of half Pontic Greek origin and I think that Pontic Greeks are a mix of Greeks,Armenians and aboriginal Pontians(Caucones/Kashka) who probably were close to some modern Georgians especialy Laz.

Dancing in a circle is an ancient tradition common to many cultures for marking special occasions, strengthening community and encouraging togetherness. The circle is probably the oldest known dance formation. It is found even today in the community dances of many cultures, including Greek (Greek dances surviving from ancient Greece (chorea)), African, Eastern European, Israeli (see Jewish dance and Israeli folk dancing), Serbian, Irish Celtic, Breton , Catalan(sardana), South American and North American Indian. It is also used, in its more meditative form, in worship within various religious traditions, including, for example, the Church of England and other Anglican Churches[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] and the Islamic Haḍra dances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_dance

hm, Breton dance...
now, in Britanny lived Celtic Veneti...
hm, Sardana dance...

Kochari (Armenian: Քոչարի; Azerbaijani: Köçəri; Greek: Κότσαρι), is an old folk dance, danced today by Turks, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks and Kurds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotsari
 
one couriosity considering that province Kerman/Germania was meaning bravery/combat and Gimmri (Gomer/Cimmerians) meant hero in Georgian and that ancient Gomer people were thus known as war people, is that dance of India that was in ancient times used to energize warriors in battle is called Ghumura
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX_UAy3WBoY

As per Mahabharat, Ghumura was being used by both Gods and Goddesses as a musical instrument during war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghumura_Dance

I will not claim that Gomer were Aryans of ancient India because I think that Aryans were J2 people
(see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
while Gomer were haplogroup I people... and IJ times were I guess long before Aryans... but there is clear relation between word Gomer and war, bravery... that stretches all the way to east part of India...
 
thanks for the replies. i didn't expect anyone to answer this thread because the origin of the laz seem pretty much a mystery. i'm guessing that, though i maybe completetely wrong, that they may have came from africa or the middle east (very ancient inhabited places on earth) before settling in the colchis, that's if you can go by herodotus' theory. i may add that i find laz music sounds a bit like celtic music, bagpipes for example, and that the celts may have originated from the caucasus.
 
i may add that i find laz music sounds a bit like celtic music, bagpipes for example, and that the celts may have originated from the caucasus.

that makes sense actually...
R1b YDNA haplogroup is often assumed to be dominant haplogroup carried by Celts...
R1b1b2 did spread to Europe from Anatolia and my assumption is that it was during ice age in area of north Anatolia and Caucasus and later moved to west Anatolia where it was for long time (as indicated by high variance) and then moved to Thrace, and from Thrace to Italy, Spain, France, Germany...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26361-R1b-U152-map&p=370687&viewfull=1#post370687

Is there any data about genetics of Laz people?
 
I'll go with the traditional point of view;they are close relatives of Georgians.
I believe not only those little group,but also both Pontic Greeks and Turks descend from ancient Kolhis;forefather of Lazs.

According to Strabon poeple or Trabzon(Capitol of Pontos)are originally Colhi(Laz) that adopted the Greek language,he names them as ''Laso''.
All Greeks and Turks of the area are almost identical to Laz people.
 
Laz speak an ancient language related to Georgian. In Georgia proper we have Mingrelian/Megrelian language which is very similar to Laz. Laz has simply many Turkish loan words unlike Megrelian as their lands went under Turkish dominion 500 years ago.

Laz are indeed considered to be descendants of Colchians. As their country Lazika was on the territories where Colchida was before.
We have DNA data of some Megrelians and mostly they are R1b and J1*. I expect this to be the case of Laz people too.
 
Forgot to mention, Laz and Megrelians are mostly blond or dark blond (sometimes redhair) and have blue or gray eyes.
 
@ how yes and no

According to Pliny the Elder there were several Colchian cities on Balkans. If any connection you mention is right it would be Laz/Colchian expansion to Balkans not vice versa.
 
You can check this paper about Anatolian DNA from 2004. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148.pdf
Here is the data from Artvin and Rize are which is predominantly Laz, although we don't know if the people tested were actually Laz.

C3-M217- 1
E3b1-M78 - 2
E3b3-M123 - 4
G1a-P20 - 4
G1*-M342 - 1
G2*-P15 - 6
G2a-P16 - 1
I*-M170 -1
I1b*-P37 - 1
J1*-M267 - 8
J2*-M172 - 8
J2d-M158 - 1
J2e*-M12 - 1
J2f1-M92 - 1
J2f*-M67 - 5
K2-M70 - 2
L*-M11 - 9
N*-M231 - 5
O3-M122 - 1
Q*-M242 - 1
R1a1-M17 - 4
R1b3-M269 - 8
R1b2-M73 - 1
R1b4-M335 - 1
R1c-M343 - 1
 
Hello foryouandme, I just read one research about laz/megrels people. They are almost 50% G2a. In my region (Trabzon in Turkey), the pontic speaking upper towns are also belonging to same haplogroup (Most probably local kolhis people helenized during Greek colonization). Unfortunatelly, we have very limited number of samples. If you are related laz people, you are more than welcome to join my group at Familytree DNA.
 
I*-M170 -1
I1b*-P37 - 1

A note on these now that this thread has been bumped: the latter is now I2a1, and is probably I2a-Din if Eastern European in origin or I2a1a if Western European in origin, probably a recent introduction either way, unless it's a haplotype we've never gotten STRs for. The former has the highest chance of being I1 (at which point it could be Gothic), I2a2-Cont3 (at which point it is relatively ancient, Eastern European in origin), or I2c-B (at which point it is from the same unknown, probably seafaring source as Armenian I2c-B)... I2c-B is my guess. Here's to hoping that future studies will give us better pictures of where in the I tree Asian I is located, so that we can better understand backmigrations from Europe to Asia.
 
or I2c-B (at which point it is from the same unknown, probably seafaring source as Armenian I2c-B)... I2c-B is my guess. Here's to hoping that future studies will give us better pictures of where in the I tree Asian I is located, so that we can better understand backmigrations from Europe to Asia.
I think I2c - Armenian link is bit exaggerated and based simply on the fact that way more Armenians have been tested so far than all the other Caucasians together. Let's wait for more results to come in.
 
Kardu (about laz people genetics), your data is belong to Cinnioglu paper (Published with a group from Stanford University). He divided Turkey upto geographical regions (How we study in the schools), so the data given by Cinnioglu, represents the whole Blacksea region (central north and north-east of Turkey) not just artvin and Rize. You can not take this data as Laz people genetics (I do not remember he mentioned about any cities).
 
Kardu (about laz people genetics), your data is belong to Cinnioglu paper (Published with a group from Stanford University). He divided Turkey upto geographical regions (How we study in the schools), so the data given by Cinnioglu, represents the whole Blacksea region (central north and north-east of Turkey) not just artvin and Rize. You can not take this data as Laz people genetics (I do not remember he mentioned about any cities).
Thanks for the comment. Yes, I agree.
 

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