R1b migration map

[motatalea]

1-Mr maciamo please in this map you will note that their is a migration of R1b in europe in dark red colour ,Is this the halstatt migration?and if it is so why it didnot go to spain ,france and britain?
2-it is show that R1b S116 went to scandinavia and italy and greece ,so please could you tell me which subclade of S116 that went to those parts during the halstatt period?Is it S28?

[Maciamo]

1. Yes, the dark red arrow represent the first migration from the Hallstatt region to Italy. I believe that there were several migrations from the Alps region during the whole Hallstatt and La Tène period (1200 to 50 BCE). I didn't want to cluster the map so I stopped around 1000 BCE, at the beginning of Hallstatt. There were already other arrows of previous migrations to Britain, France and Iberia, so it would have been difficult to read.

The main purpose of this map is to show where R1b originated and how it spread to the different parts of the world where it is found nowadays, in a chronological order. R1b-S28 in Britain or Iberia is only a minority of all R1b and therefore it wasn't so important to display it.

2. Most of the R1b-S116 in Scandinavia, Greece and Iberia is still simply R1b-S116 nowadays (or at least subclades haven't been identified yet). Scandinavia has the particularity of having a great diversity of minor subclades (S21, S28, L21), which all probably came from Germany. S28 is likely to have come during the Hallstatt period, while S21 came earlier. I am trying to figure out when L21 arrived in Scandinavia. L21 and S28 are both more common in southern Germany, while S21 is more frequent in northern Germany, so it is possible that L21 was part of an early Hallstatt migration too. However I am inclined to think that L21 correspond to an even earlier migration from southern Germany, maybe around 2000 BCE (same time as when L21 supposedly went to Britain).

[motatalea]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maciamo 1. Yes, the dark red arrow represent the first migration from the Hallstatt region to Italy. I believe that there were several migrations from the Alps region during the whole Hallstatt and La Tène period (1200 to 50 BCE). I didn't want to cluster the map so I stopped around 1000 BCE, at the beginning of Hallstatt. There were already other arrows of previous migrations to Britain, France and Iberia, so it would have been difficult to read. The main purpose of this map is to show where R1b originated and how it spread to the different parts of the world where it is found nowadays, in a chronological order. R1b-S28 in Britain or Iberia is only a minority of all R1b and therefore it wasn't so important to display it. 2. Most of the R1b-S116 in Scandinavia, Greece and Iberia is still simply R1b-S116 nowadays (or at least subclades haven't been identified yet). Scandinavia has the particularity of having a great diversity of minor subclades (S21, S28, L21), which all probably came from Germany. S28 is likely to have come during the Hallstatt period, while S21 came earlier. I am trying to figure out when L21 arrived in Scandinavia. L21 and S28 are both more common in southern Germany, while S21 is more frequent in northern Germany, so it is possible that L21 was part of an early Hallstatt migration too. However I am inclined to think that L21 correspond to an even earlier migration from southern Germany, maybe around 2000 BCE (same time as when L21 supposedly went to Britain).

thanks too much Mr Maciamo
but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ?

2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3?
3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1?
4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T?

Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by motatalea thanks too much Mr Maciamo but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ? 2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3? 3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1? 4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T? Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care

L0 is very rare nowadays. It is older than L1, L2 or L3.

According to my data, L1 is most common in southern Africa and its frequency decreases as we move northward. L2 and L3 are found in similar proportion to each others in most of Africa, except in the North-East (around Ethiopia), where L3 is a bit more common.

I don't have information about the link between Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups in Africa. Where did you read about Cameroonese R1b having more L1 and L2 than L0 and L3 ?

[Genocentrist]

Best logical map so far, Someone needs to send the map to the genographic project, they still insist that R1b was in Europe way back then

[Heber]

Based on Professor Steve Jones analysis and my own results below is my best guess at the ancient Celtic migrations. I would be interested in any comments. (apologies for formatting).

R1b1b2a1a2f defining mutations Subclade Time of Origin (BC) Place of highest frequency Archealogy Ancient etnic group



rs11799226 (L21) C G R1b1b2a1a2f 4,800-1,200 Ireland, Britain, France, Germany Carrowmore Insular Celts
R1b1b2a1a2 defining mutations
rs34276300 (P312) C A R1b1b2a1a2 5,000-4,000 Ireland, Britain, France, Germany Halstatt Celts, Le Tene, Halstatt
R1b1b2a1a defining mutations
rs13304168 (L52) C T
rs9785659 (P311) A G
rs9786076 (L11) T C
rs9786283 (P310) A C R1b1b2a1a 6000-5,500 Atlantic Europe, Danube, Rhine Iron Gates European Pre Proto Celt
R1b1b2a1 defining mutations
rs9786140 (L51) G A R1b1b2a1 6,500 Greece Thessaly Pre Proto Celts
R1b1b2a defining mutations
rs9785971 (L23) G A R1b1b2a 7,000 Thessaly Thessaly Pre Proto Celts
rs9786142 (L49) T A
R1b1b2 defining mutations
rs877756 (S3) T C
rs9786153 (M269) T C R1b1b2 7,000-6,000 Anatolia, Armenia Byblos Pre Proto Celts
R1b1b defining mutations
rs9785702 (P297) G C R1b1b Fertile Cresant Gobeki Tepe Proto Indo European
R1b1 defining mutations
rs150173 (P25) C A R1b1 13,000-10,000 Anatolia Anatalya Magdalanian
R1b defining mutations
rs9786184 (M343) C A R1b 17,000-13,000 Europe Anatolia Eurasian Magdalanian

[Cambria Red]

Quote:

Originally Posted by motatalea thanks too much Mr Maciamo but there are some questions 1- Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup J1 in south eastern africa (Like Sudan,Somalia,Kenya,and ethiopia.....ext)carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 than L1 and L2 ? 2-Is that right that people with Y-DNA haplogroup R1b in western central africa(northen cameroon) carry more percents of mt-DNA haplogroups L1 and L2 than L0 and L3? 3-Which mt-DNA haplogroup of those is more older L0 or L1? 4-Last but not least ,Is that right that people with mt-DNA haplogroups L0 and L3 in south eastern africa carrymore percents of Y-DNA haplogroup J1 than Y-DNA haplogroup T? Iam really sorry for inconvenience to you and take care

R1b* found in N. Cameroon is not European R1b since it does not contain the P25 marker. It is likely very old and the result of back migrations.

[Genocentrist]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cambria Red R1b* found in N. Cameroon is not European R1b since it does not contain the P25 marker. It is likely very old and the result of back migrations.

R1b, R1b1 were direct migrations from the Levant into Africa, most of European R1b is downstream R1b1b12-M269 specifically the much younger clade R1b1b2a1a-P310 which represents the Neo-Europid Eurasid lineage that dominates Western Europe today

[Haganus]

But when R1b1b2a1a-P310 has arrived North-Europe? Is it sure that R1b
does not originate in southwest-France? It is a real difficult thing to accept.

But I do not understand the difference between the R1b from north-Germany
and South-Germany-Austria? And even the Swedish R1b doet not match the
Dutch and north-German R1b.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haganus But when R1b1b2a1a-P310 has arrived North-Europe?

R1b-P310* is not so common in Europe. It is rather its two subclades S21 and P312/S116 that make up the bunch of the European population.

Quote:

Is it sure that R1b does not originate in southwest-France? It is a real difficult thing to accept.

Southwest France has a lot of R1b, but it has little diversity. Southern Germany has much more types of R1b. Older subclades of R1b are all found in Central Asia or the Middle East. There is a clear trail left behind R1b migrants over the millennia, starting with the birth of R1b in southern Central Asia, and ending the deepest (i.e. most recent) subclades in Western and Northern Europe.

EDIT : I have written a more detailed explanation about how R1b came to replace older lineages in Western Europe.

[Catchabus]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maciamo ....I have written a more detailed explanation about how R1b came to replace older lineages in Western Europe.

Do you know of such a resource written in Italian? I'm trying to locate Y-DNA information for Italian relatives and my grasp of the language is not good enough to write so technically. Thanks.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catchabus Do you know of such a resource written in Italian? I'm trying to locate Y-DNA information for Italian relatives and my grasp of the language is not good enough to write so technically. Thanks.

Over 90% of all publications about genetics are in English. I could try to translate the page about the history of haplogroups in Italian, but I don't have enough time now. I still have to update the French translation. Lots of work.

[Catchabus]

Yes, fortunately for many, including us, English is the lingua franca for genetic genealogy. I don't expect you to translate in Italian. I'm just not confidant enough in my ability to write Italian well on such a technical subject. However, there are several short articles at
wikipedia italiano:
h tee tee pee://
it.
wikipedia.
org/wiki/
Aplogruppi_del_cromosoma_Y
(Still can't post a URL, just combine the above with http.)

[DavidCoutts]

My latest update from Genebase shows my Subclade as R1b1b2a1a2 Am I correct in saying this is a Germanic Subclade? If so, it does raise some interesting questions, since my father's family have been in Scotland for generations.

As far as I am aware, I have no relatives in Germany. Does this mean my ancestors were originally Anglo-Saxon invaders who moved North into Scotland?

Any information would be useful. Thank you.