Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

Ivan said:

What is then DYS 19 being 14 in Croats have to do with genetic distance from Serbs?

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Ivan said:

What DYS 19 Serbs have?

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As I said you before value of single DYS does not mean anything considering haplogroups

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Ivan said:

I thought so, but then again people mentioned this man to be expert for I.

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Nordtvedt (I haplogroup specialist) just thaught that he can extract that cluster from the bulk of I2a2

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how yes no said:

Ivan said:

How Yes No,
If your theory was right,
-What do you think, what % were Serians compared to local population on arrival?

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I think I2a2 Serians have already long time ago lived in area of Balkans and west part of Asia minor...what happened in 7th century was arrival of related Croats and arrival of small group of other Serians proto-Serbs.....

look at Lydia on this map and compare with I2a2 spread

key town of Lydia is Sardis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardis

Eneti are related I2a2 people who were much earlier kicked from Asia minor and settled along north Adriatic coast (Adriatic Veneti, btw. Liburnians were likely also Venetic), around Vistula (Vistula Veneti) and around Black sea (giving Sarmatian Venedi who are likely same as Antes tribe mentioned both as Sarmatian and as a tribe of Veneti race)

removal of Eneti from Paphlagonia is the reason why I2a2 in west of Asia minor is separated from island of I2a2 in east Asia minor.

we know that early Slavs are identified by Jordanes as populous race of Veneti... and we can also see that known spread of early Slavs does match pretty well directions of spread of I2a2 (disregarding the Balkan spread)

maybe I2a2-Dinaric South are Serians, while I2a2-Dinaric North are Veneti...

I2a2 Serians of Asia and Balkan might have been pushed somewhat towards west and north with advance of E-V13 Dardanians....they did retake some of the lost positions during Celtic expansion....

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Now the parts beyond the Rhenus, immediately after the country of the Celti, slope towards the east and are occupied by the Germans, who, though they vary slightly from the Celtic stock in that they are wilder, taller, and have yellower hair, are in all other respects similar, for in build, habits, and modes of life they are such as I have said9 the Celti are. And I also think that it was for this reason that the Romans assigned to them the name “Germani,” as though they wished to indicate thereby that they were “genuine” Galatae, for in the language of the Romans “germani” means “genuine.”10 [3]

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Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[2] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[3] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.

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The Hebrew name Gomer is widely considered to refer to the Cimmerians (Akkadian Gimirru, "complete"), who dwelt on the Eurasian Steppes[4] and attacked Assyria in the late 7th century BC. The Assyrians called them Gimmerai ; the Cimmerian king Teushpa was defeated by Assarhadon of Assyria sometime between 681 and 668 BC.[5]
The Cimbri were a tribe settled in Denmark ca. 200 BC, who were variously identified in ancient times as Cimmerian, Germanic or Celtic. In later times, some scholars connected them with the Welsh people, and descendants of Gomer.
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According to tractate Yoma, in the Talmud, Gomer is identified as the ancestor of the Gomermians, modern Germans.

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The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri. This refers to the Cimmerians who settled in the area after the initial conquests.
Some modern authors assert that the Cimmerians included mercenaries, whom the Assyrians knew as Khumri, who had been resettled there by Sargon. Later Greek accounts describe the Cimmerians as having previously lived on the steppes, between the Tyras (Dniester) and Tanais (Don) rivers. Greek and Mesopotamian sources note several Cimmerian kings including Tugdamme (Lygdamis in Greek; mid-7th century BC), and Sandakhshatra (late-7th century).

The Cimmerian occupation of Lydia was brief, however, possibly due to an outbreak of plague. Between 637 and 626 BC, they were beaten back by Alyattes II of Lydia. This defeat marked the effective end of Cimmerian power. The term Gimirri was used about a century later in the Behistun inscription (ca. 515 BC) as a Babylonian equivalent of Persian Saka (Scythians). Otherwise Cimmerians disappeared from western Asian historical accounts, and their fate was unknown. It has been speculated that they settled in Cappadocia, known in Armenian as Գամիրք, Gamir-kʿ (the same name as the original Cimmerian homeland in Mannae).

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Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat.

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Herodotus thought the Cimmerians and the Thracians closely related, writing that both peoples originally inhabited the northern shore of the Black Sea, and both were displaced about 700 BC, by invaders from the east. Whereas the Cimmerians would have departed this ancestral homeland by heading west and south across the Caucasus, the Thracians migrated southwest into the Balkans, where they established a successful and long-lived culture. The Tauri, the original inhabitants of Crimea, are sometimes identified as a people related to the Cimmerians and later the Taurisci.
Premodern historians asserted Cimmerian descent for the Celts or the Germans, arguing from the similarity of Cimmerii to Cimbri or Cymry. It is unlikely that either Proto-Celtic or Proto-Germanic entered western Europe as late as the 7th century BC; their formation was commonly associated with the Bronze Age Urnfield and Nordic Bronze Age cultures, respectively. It is, however, conceivable that a small-scale (in terms of population) 8th century "Thraco-Cimmerian" migration triggered cultural changes that contributed to the transformation of the Urnfield culture into the Hallstatt C culture, ushering in the European Iron Age. Later Cimmerian remnant groups may have spread as far as to the Nordic Countries and the Rhine River. An example is the Cimbri tribe, considered to be a Germanic tribe hailing from the Himmerland (Old Danish Himber sysæl) region in northern Denmark.[15]

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The Cimmerian Sibyl, by name Carmentis, was the prophetic priestess presiding over the Apollonian Oracle at Cimmerium in Italy, near Lake Avernus (i.e. Cumae). This sibyl may have been a doublet for the Cumaean since the designation Cimmerian refers to priestesses who lived underground near Lake Avernus.

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how yes no said:

that is interesting idea... do you know where can one read more about that research?

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how yes no said:

I wonder what was originally the meaning of red and white... it is known that the red and white had meaning of south and west respectively, but that doesnot explain choice of colours for flags and coats of arms... .....Veneti seems to be related to wind....so maybe red and white as fire and wind, energy and air...

as for coat of arms of Serbia (notice it is also red and white) it's hard to say, but my guesses are here: ...

btw. Croatian red-white checkerboard coat of arms is interesting as it is very specific and can be served to identify Croats throughout a history...
e.g. areas in Slovakia, Czech republic, Poland that were part of white Croatia seems to still have checkerboard as motive in coat of arms... you can see it repeated in many coat of arms of regions and towns there...

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how yes no said:

we know that early Slavs are identified by Jordanes as populous race of Veneti... and we can also see that known spread of early Slavs does match pretty well directions of spread of I2a2 (disregarding the Balkan spread)

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The Protogenes Inscription (3rd century BC) mention the Sciri together with the Galatians and probably Indo Iranian Saii[1] when they tried unsuccessfully to capture the Greek city Olbia, northwest of the Black Sea. It has been suggested that the Sciri, like the Hirri, as mentioned by Pliny the Elder in association with Sarmatians and Venedi, actually belonged to the latter since he does not mention the Sciri among the German people and neither Caesar nor Tacitus mention the Sciri at all.[2] They reappear only at the time of Attila the Hun.

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In 193 AD, after another conflict in the Bosporus, the Siraces disappears from the history.[2]
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

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The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]

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I. J. Gelb & E. A. Speiser believed Subarians had been the linguistic and ethnic substratum of northern Mesopotamia since earliest times, while Hurrians were merely late arrivals.[citation needed

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The land of Subartu (Akkadian Šubartum/Subartum/ina Šú-ba-ri, Assyrian mât Šubarri) or Subar (Sumerian Su-bir4/Subar/Šubur) is mentioned in Bronze Age literature. The name also appears as Subari in the Amarna letters, and, in the form Šbr, in Ugarit.
Subartu was apparently a polity in Northern Mesopotamia, at the upper Tigris, in the general sphere of influence of the Hurrians. Its precise location has not been identified. From the point of view of the Akkadian Empire, Subartu marked the northern geographical horizon, just as Martu, Elam and Sumer marked "west", "east" and "south", respectively.

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Shupria (or Arme-Shupria) was a Hurrian kingdom, known from Assyrian sources beginning in the 12th century BC, located in the Armenian Highland, to the southwest of Lake Van, bordering on Urartu proper.
Together with Armani-Subartu, Hayasa-Azzi and other populations of the region, they fell under Urartian rule in the 9th century BC, and their descendants later contributed to the ethnogenesis of the early Armenians.[1]

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Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]
He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace. The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs. In the Hurrian schema, he was paired with Hebat the mother goddess; in the Hittite, with the sun goddess of Arinna—a cultus of great antiquity which may ultimately derive from the bull god and mother goddess worshipped at Çatalhöyük in the Neolithic era.
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According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.

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In Slavic mythology, Perun (Cyrillic: Перун) is the highest god of the pantheon and the god of thunder and lightning. His other attributes were the fire, mountains, the oak, iris, eagle, firmament (in Indo-European languages this was joined with the notion of the sky of stone), horses and carts, weapons (the hammer, axe (Axe of Perun) and arrow) and war. He was first associated with weapons made of stone and later with those of metal.
Like Germanic Thor, Perun is described as a rugged man with a copper beard. He rides in a chariot pulled by a goat buck and carries a mighty axe, or sometimes a hammer. The axe is hurled at evil people and spirits and will always return to his hand.
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In Slavic mythology, much like in Norse mythology, the world was represented by a sacred tree, usually an oak, whose branches and trunk represented the living world of heavens and mortals, whilst its roots represented the underworld, i.e. the realm of dead. Perun was a ruler of the living world, sky and earth, and was often symbolised by an eagle sitting on the top of the tallest branch of the tree, from which he kept watch over the entire world. Deep down in the roots of the tree was the place of his enemy, symbolised by a serpent or a dragon: this was Veles, watery god of the underworld, who continually provoked Perun by stealing his cattle, children or wife. Perun pursued Veles around the earth, attacking him with his lightning bolts from the sky. Veles fled from him by transforming himself into various animals, or hiding behind trees, houses or people; wherever a lightning bolt struck, it was believed, this was because Veles hid from Perun under or behind that particular place. In the end, Perun managed to kill Veles, or to chase him back down into his watery underworld. The supreme god thus reestablished the order in the world which had been disrupted by his chaotic enemy. He then returned to the top of the World tree and proudly informed his opponent down in the roots:Ну, там твое место, там сабе будь! ("Well, there is your place, stay there!").

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Zeus, poetically referred to by the vocative Zeu pater ("O, father Zeus"), is a continuation of *Di̯ēus, the Proto-Indo-European god of the daytime sky, also called *Dyeus ph2tēr ("Sky Father").[6] The god is known under this name in Sanskrit (cf. Dyaus/Dyaus Pita), Latin (cf. Jupiter, from Iuppiter, deriving from the PIE vocative *dyeu-ph2tēr[7]), deriving from the basic form *dyeu- ("to shine", and in its many derivatives, "sky, heaven, god").[6] And in Germanic and Norse mythology (cf. *Tīwaz > OHG Ziu, ON Týr), together with Latin deus, dīvus and Dis (a variation of dīves[8]), from the related noun *deiwos.[8] To the Greeks and Romans, the god of the sky was also the supreme god, whereas this function was filled out by Odin among the Germanic tribes. Accordingly, they did not identify Zeus/Jupiter with either Tyr or Odin, but with Thor (Þórr). Zeus is the only deity in the Olympic pantheon whose name has such a transparent Indo-European etymology.[9

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1)According to Porphirogenetus, 'Serb' was just a social status('servants').

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sir_morphy said:

Yeah, right I2a were slavs!! R1a were slavs (that's a fact!). In today Romania I+R1a= 50%. In which country an invader (slavic people in this case) with more than 50% of male lineage didn't impose language?!?!!??
Another thing: romanian language is closest to clasical latin regarding grammar and is only one to preserve neutral case.
Conclusion: I2a is here from long time ago.

Quod erat demonstrandum!
Ceea ce era de demonstrat! (in romanian, not in a slavic language!!)

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Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell,occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)

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evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),

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After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

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sir_morphy said:

Yeah, right I2a were slavs!! R1a were slavs (that's a fact!). In today Romania I+R1a= 50%. In which country an invader (slavic people in this case) with more than 50% of male lineage didn't impose language?!?!!??
Another thing: romanian language is closest to clasical latin regarding grammar and is only one to preserve neutral case.
Conclusion: I2a is here from long time ago.

Quod erat demonstrandum!
Ceea ce era de demonstrat! (in romanian, not in a slavic language!!)

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sir_morphy said:

I said that early Slavs were dominantly I2a2, which doesnot mean that all I2a2 were Slavs... FALSE

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how yes no;365792 same is with other of your replies said:

first paragraph; nonsence. i gave you a linguistic argument.

second paragraph: try a google search and find that over 30% of english words are form french language. do you imagine what massive settlement of frech was in medieval england?!? every language ''buy words" from neibhours. In medieval Romania case all neibhours were slavs (except maghyars).

third paragraph: there are about 150 words in romanian language who are the same with words from albanian language. these are called by lingvists "thracian substratum" of romanian language. (or if u like thracian-illirian substratum i let you to.. to speak more...about it

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sir_morphy said:

Garrick, i always wonder from where those y haplogroups frequencies came in case of Romania!!!

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