Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

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I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...

while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...

How yes no,
I disagree because this is the right research topic and contributors are active, the topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.
 
How yes no,
but it is clearly that the title of this topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.

I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365795#post365795
it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201
 
I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365795#post365795
it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201

I don't agree, again.
Just this topic prompted the right research, a lot has learned and it has great value.

But ok, there is no subject about people can argue a bit and somewhat is a matter of taste.
 
I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.

Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But just you can read forums and blogs by African and Asian countries where these and similar issues discussed widely.

Also there are published books. One of the books that came out in 2010 is:

Kush Khamit Raamah

Faces of the Hamitic people

In this book,
between other things, author connect the Geg, Arvaniti and Chamuri Albanians as Hamites.


Author points out that the Albanian name Cham derived from the Ham.

The book was published in the edition Xilibris Corporation, USA.

The cover:

9781453500514.jpg

 
Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.

History seeks facts and no opinions.

The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

But History is wroten by facts.

The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.
 
Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.
History seeks facts and no opinions.

The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

But History is wroten by facts.

The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.

You want facts, you didn’t read previous pages, ok here are some facts:


Fulvio Cruciani, Roberta La Fratta, Beniamino Trombetta, Piero Santolamazza, Daniele Sellitto,Eliane Beraud Colomb,Jean-Michel Dugoujon, Federica Crivellaro, Tamara Benincasa,Roberto Pascone, Pedro Moral, Elizabeth Watson, Bela Melegh,Guido Barbujani,Silvia Fuselli,Giuseppe Vona, Boris Zagradisnik,Guenter Assum, Radim Brdicka, Andrey I. Kozlov, Georgi D. Efremov,Alfredo Coppa,Andrea Novelletto, and Rosaria Scozzari


Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

2007

Oxford University Press

“By analyzing a worldwide sample of 6,501 male subjects, wehave identified 517 chromosomes belonging to haplogroup E-M78, more than twice the number found in a previous study (Cruciani et al. 2004). These chromosomes have been further analyzed for the biallelic markers M148 (Underhill et al. 2000), M224 (Underhill et al. 2001), V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32 (Cruciani et al. 2006), V36, and V65 (present study).... Four subhaplogroups were either rare(1 and 2 subjects for E-V27 and E-V19, respectively) or absent(E-M148andE-M224)in the global sample, whereas theother haplogroups/paragroups were relatively common (table1 and fig. 2).

You can see that subhaplogroups of E-M78 are (excluding those that are very rare):

E-V12
E-V32
E-V13
E-78*
E-V65 and
E-V22.



“In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.”

You can see that Northeastern Africa is probably place of origin E-78.


“The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively).”

You can see Cruciani et al, 2007 as a possible arrival time E carriers in the Balkans state between 4000 and 4700 year ago (between 2000 and 2700 BC).




You can see:
E-V13 is subclade of haplogroup E-M78,
estimated time of origin is about 11.5 thousand years (ASD method) or about 8.7 thousand years (ρ method),
origin is Northwestern Africa,
E-V13 in the Balkans is between 2000 and 2700 BC.



Marijana Peričić,Lovorka Barać Lauc,Irena Martinović Klarić,Siiri Rootsi,
Branka Janićijević,Igor Rudan,Rifet Terzić,Ivanka Čolak,Ante Kvesić,Dan Popović, Ana Šijački,Ibrahim Behluli,Dobrivoje Ðorđević,Ljudmila Efremovska,Ðorđe D. Bajec,Branislav D. Stefanović,Richard Villems,and Pavao Rudan



High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

2005

You can see the data of E haplogroup for Kosovar Albanians:

E-M78* 1.75%
E-V13 43.85%
E-M81 0.90%
E-M123 0.90%

Total E 47.20%

You can see that Kosovar Albanians, except E-V13 have E-M78 haplogroup observed in Egypt, E-M81 known as Berber marker and another E subclade E-M123.

Battaglia et al (European Journal of Human genetics, 2009)

"The presence of E-M78 * Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described only in virtually northeast Africa, upper Nile, 28, 63 gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."



Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alù, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi, Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/

Springer

2010

This study revealed significant differences between Gheg and Tosk population in Albania.

Ghegs have 41.82% E haplogroup (E-V13 41.21%).

Tosks have 28.10% E haplogroup but you can see differences and among other haplogroups.

Research has shown that the Ghegs are closest Egyptians of all the European populations on the other hand Toscs are closer Balkan populations.


Very closely are placed Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, which is logical if one bears in mind that by Mirabal et al 2010 in Serbia I haplogroup is 48% and according Pericic et al 2005 in Bosnia I haplogroup is 53.65% (in Herzegovina the result for I is even more).


I suppose you know when I haplogroup appeared in the Balkans.

Kalevi Wiik

Where Did European Men Come From?

Journal of Genetic Genaology, 2008

(7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sentanother branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans,and a new sub-Clan I emerged.

You can see the ancestors of today's I carrier in the Balkans, Bosnians, Serbs and others, were in the Balkans even before 25,000 years.


Do you think that the Bosnians, Serbs and other people that are considered truly South Slavic and where I haplogroup is dominant are realy Slavs?

They speak Slavic language but they are not Slavs.

You can see Slavic haplogroup R1a in Serbia is 14.5% (Mirabal et al, 2010).

And you can see R1a among Albanians, for example in Macedonia FYROM is 12.6% (Noveski et al, 2010).

Are you think that Bosniaks and Serbs really Slavs, Serbs have 14.5% R1a haplogroup and for 1.9% more than Albanians in Macedonia FYROM?

What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?

Thousands of years before E carriers if you read Klyosov:

“An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,650±1,550 years bp.”


You can compare with the estimate Cruciani et al when E came to the Balkans.



Now that you've all heard, what you think you got the right so bad to say about all the contributors on this topic who are worth collecting data, using appropriate sources and by setting up posts.

You call people chauvinists and the like, but they are serious researchers and you see that they are different nations.

Nobody have right to do, if something does not know you should learn, if you have other sources put it, we can discuss, argue, all we can, but no one can insult and label, only the communists did it but the communists did not have long; fortunately.
 
But History is wroten by facts..

It seems to me that written history is only the interpretation of events by the author, it is not necessarily the facts. Anyone can write anything, it doesn't always make it true and as history is usually written by the victor (who is writing with an agenda) it can render historical accounts very suspect. History is therefore subject to opinion.

True history should be impartial, without an agenda, not clouded by nationalistic claptrap and, unfortunately, is rare to find. But we all seek the historical fact or truth, isn't that why people have been debating and discussing history forever? It is also the reason why we enjoy it so much.
 
What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.
 
I THOUGHT THAT BERBERS ARE OF EURASIAN ORIGIN???

Didnt you remember?
 
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

Neander

I presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.

You're not given anything just your abusive thoughts from your head and a faint attempt at propaganda without sources.
 
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

hello, stop with propaganda...
Mongolia has dominant haplogroup C...
R1a origins from south Siberia but not from Mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...

we talk about R1a that is in Balkan for 11000 years
and E-V13 that is there for 4000 years...

it could be that R1a are Pelasgians, and E-V13 were Illyrians and later Dardanians....

but I am not sure about Illyrians.... they might have easily been J2, R1b or even I2a2 dominant... more research is needed there...

stop pushing idea that Albanians are indigenous and that thus Balkan belongs to them.... E-V13 is fairly recent arrival to Europe ....so, if we apply your nazi views that most recent arrivals should go away, the someone that should go away from Europe / Balkan is E-V13... keep that in mind!

my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....
 
i presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.
i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.

hello, stop with propaganda...
Mongolia has dominant haplogroup c...
R1a origins from south siberia but not from mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...
R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.
 
my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....
You are self-frightened, I didnt fright you. I am talking about history, and not about nazi,

DONT use this "nazi" as a counterargument.

You have not facts about what you said. There is no out of africa major migration after Mesolithic.

You made propaganda, to tell us that Albanians must go out of Europe, and then acusse me for "propaganda". Please look at yourself first. You are not discusing historyu but ridiculous propaganda.

Stupid thread.
 
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,
even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.


i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.
R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

Neander
You can not talk like that, just showing your ignorance and frustration.

You say the work of Klyosov is bulshit!!!

Are you aware of where is a author’s level of knowledge but where is your, if you do know what it is science, scientist, methodology, research, journal, etc. maybe you know would not have spoken.

I say this in good faith, and scientists can read Eupedia, what can they think of these your words.


Klyosov is a very prominent American scientist.

If you have something to say against his work you would have to cite some other work that is opposed to his view.

But not a blog, or the like, it is worthless, only the scientific work and recognized scientific name.


So you can compare:


Kalevi Wiik, Finnish scientist

Where Did European Men Come From

2008

Journal of Genetic Genealogy


According him carriers of I haplogroup came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago.



Anatole Klyosov, American scientist

DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf

2008

Nature Precendings,

According him carriers of R1a1 haplogroup exist in the Balkans since 11,600 years bp.


Cruciani Fulvio, Italian Scientist, et al

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

2007

Oxford University Press

According them carriers of E-V13 subhaplogroup of E-M78 haplogroup appeared inthe Balkans before 4000 to 4700 years.



For your words about R haplogroup you didn’t give scientific journal, are you sure that it is mongol haplogroup?


You can see:

Kalevi Wiik

Where Did European Men Come From

Cit.

(a) Those who are Old Europeans in the sense that, at the start of the LGM, their paternal lineages already were in Europe and they came to the four refuges when they were forced out of northern Europe. They were first to repopulate Europe after the LGM and they formed the bulk of the present European male population.

Cit.

The frequency of the Old Europeans will be considered here as the sum of R1b + R1a + I + N


Here you can learn two things:

R haplogroup is not Mongol but European.


E haplogroup does not belong Old Europeans, because E carriers came to Europe much later.
 
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of
agriculture in southeast Europe
Vincenza Battaglia1, Simona Fornarino1,12, Nadia Al-Zahery1, Anna Olivieri1, Maria Pala1,
Natalie M Myres
2, Roy J King3, Siiri Rootsi4, Damir Marjanovic5,6, Dragan Primorac7,8,
Rifat Hadziselimovic
5, Stojko Vidovic9, Katia Drobnic10, Naser Durmishi11, Antonio Torroni1,
A Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti
1, Peter A Underhill3 and Ornella Semino*,1
1
Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita` di Pavia, Pavia, Italy; 2Sorenson Molecular Genealogy
Foundation, Salt Lake City, UT, USA;
3Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, School of Medicine, Stanford
University, Stanford, CA, USA;
4Department of Evolutionary Biology, University of Tartu and Estonian Biocentre, Tartu,
Estonia;
5Institute for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, University of Sarajevo, Sarajevo, Bosnia and
Herzegovina;
6Genos doo, Zagreb, Croatia; 7Medical School, Split University, Split, Croatia; 8Medical School, Osijek
University, Osijek, Croatia;
9Faculty of Medicine, University of Banja Luka, Banja Luka, Bosnia and Herzegovina;
10Forensic Laboratory and Research Center, Ministry of the Interior, Ljubljana, Slovenia; 11Medical School, University of
Tetovo, Tetovo, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia
The debate concerning the mechanisms underlying the prehistoric spread of farming to Southeast Europe is
framed around the opposing roles of population movement and cultural diffusion. To investigate the possible
involvement of local people during the transition of agriculture in the Balkans, we analysed patterns of
Y-chromosome diversity in 1206 subjects from 17 population samples, mainly from Southeast Europe. Evidence
from three Y-chromosome lineages, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, make it possible to distinguish between
Holocene Mesolithic forager and subsequent Neolithic range expansions from the eastern Sahara and the Near
East, respectively. In particular, whereas the Balkanmicrosatellite variation associated to J-M241 correlates with
the Neolithic period, those related to E-V13 and I-M423 Balkan Y chromosomes are consistent with a late
Mesolithic time frame. In addition, the low frequency and variance associated to I-M423 and E-V13 in Anatolia
and the Middle East, support an European Mesolithic origin of these two clades. Thus, these Balkan Mesolithic
foragers with their own autochthonous genetic signatures, were destined to become the earliest to adopt
farming, when it was subsequently introduced by a cadre ofmigrating farmers from the Near East. These initial
local converted farmers became the principal agents spreading this economy using maritime leapfrog
colonization strategies in the Adriatic and transmitting the Neolithic cultural package to other adjacent
Mesolithic populations. The ensuing range expansions of E-V13 and I-M423 parallel in space and time the
diffusion of Neolithic Impressed Ware, thereby supporting a case of cultural diffusion using genetic evidence.
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 24 December 2008; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2008.249
Keywords: Balkan Neolithic; farming transition; peopling of Europe; Y-chromosome haplogroups
 
Last edited:
Only a citing from that article:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.
 
Stop saying bullshits, nazi propaganda opf serbians.
 
Greeks Albanians, are the same genetic people: J2b and Ev13.

It is ridiculous to mention only albanians, with berbers,

And where are Greeks???
 
Neander
Renowned American scientist Klyosov and his work shows that R1a in the Balkans exist from before 11,600 years ago you call bullshit.

R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

You give the work of Battaglia et al who refers to other but Cruciani et al tested and determined arrival time E-V13 in the Balkans: 2000 to 2700 years BC. But ok, it's always good to set a number of scientific papers and try to argue.

But you do not want debate, R and N haplogroups you call the Mongols
and R and N belong to the Old Europeans (you can see the work Kalevi Wiik which I gave).


i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.

R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

You call serious people who investigate on this topic insults that you have no right.

Here people are only researchers and for personal satisfaction to learn something new.

And the only one who is trying to implement a propaganda are you, but you can not do it because you have no arguments and no sources, and you insult people and spam topic, and it is not allowed.


All is this because you saw that the carriers of haplogroup E, the dominant among the Albanians, especially Gheg Albanians, the last arrived in the Balkans, much after I and R.

And now you're frustrated and all the scientists and people who participate in this forum are the ones to blame.

Why do not you follow Dian, he was at the level in this topic and with him it is possible to argue.

See this scientific work:

Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alù, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi, Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/

Springer

2010

You will see that all the people who live in Europe today, according to these authors, Gheg Albanians are the closest to the Egyptians.

And you can see that one of member in this topic:

SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES

then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,

MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.

Of course participants can argue on this and any other interesting for topic.

But who wants to participate and discuss he should do without the insults and spam and should uses arguments, knowledge and resources.
 
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