Y-DNA haplogroups of Greeks by region of origin

The greek genocide was done prior to 1927; and here is the wiki pages detailing it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_genocide

That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?

There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.

Maybe you confuse the two seratate instances of the greek genocide and the constantinople progrom.

We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).

Big difference between emegrating to countries and land of origin and significance. Cyprus was colonised by greeks in ancient times before alexander.

A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.

I think the use of Anatolia as the term would be better.

All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.
 
Elias leave the retard,

he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

just leave him boil in his hate,


Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,


when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

now back to your mud
if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,
 
That was the First World War, in which 16.5 million died. The Germans and Austrians killed 3.3 million Russians, 1.7 million French people and 1.2 million British subjects, and they in turn killed 2.5 million Germans and 1.5 million Austro-Hungarians, but nobody calls that a genocide. So why should it be different for the Greeks and Armenians ? Because they were less well equipped to fight back ? Because they were civilians ? Almost 7 million civilians died in WWI. That's war. Once again I reiterate my question to the Greeks on this forum that hold deep-rooted grudges and hatred against the Turks. Is that because of events that happened in WWI, before any of you, your parents and probably your grandparents were even born ?

So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.

There would be no European Union if people didn't learn to forgive and get over with their lives and start rebuilding new relationships learning from past mistakes, no mater how gruesome. Yet it is France and Germany, the two giant archenemy of erstwhile, that decided to cement peace for future generations through mutual friendship and cooperation. They set the example for the continent and the EU has been a success in fostering peace, respect and multiculturalism. The only people who haven't learned their lessons yet are the Greeks. I think this should be ground enough to expel Greece from the EU, until it has found a way to mend its relationship with Turkey. Until then both countries should be on a waiting list. The only reason that Greece was accepted so early in the EU was the prestige of its ancient history among Europeans. What I see here is that a lot of Greeks aren't mature enough for the EU, not more than countries like Serbia, that only seek to conflict with its neighbours.

So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?

Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.

Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.


We were discussing the Istanbul pogrom. I quoted the figure of 15 people killed and you quoted me saying it was between 250,000 to 350,000. It's you who brought up the WWI casualties to illustrate the 1955 pogrom - two completely unrelated events in place and time. I probably misunderstood you because I don't use the word "genocide" for war casualties (unless there is a true, organised extermination programme, with specially designed camps, to completely eradicate a whole ethnic group from the face of the Earth, like the Nazi intended with the Jews).

I brought them both up because it was you who said greeks should forget what happened 700 years ago when we don't even care about that anymore, it's about more recent events, and they are both recent events. You just choose to ignore one because it doesn't fit with your personal definition of genocide, one that goes against the international definition of genocide. And you also don't take into account the importance the greeks place in places like constantinople, and the turkish efforts to erase all history of it pre-1453.



A small minority only, as I explained, and as attested by DNA. Greeks are closer to Western Turks than to Cypriots.

That's nice, they are still greeks, and have been for a very long time.



All right, then to show my goodwill I have changed the Y-DNA table entry to "Turkey/Anatolia". I think it's just a matter of phrasing. What the Greeks call Constantinople is Istanbul to the Turks. Most cities in Asia Minor have both Greek and Turkish names. The Turks call Greece Yunanistan, the Greeks call it Ellada, while almost everybody else call it Greece, Grèce, Grecia, Griechenland or the like. Whether you call it Anatolia or Asia Minor or Turkey or something else, that's the place that matters, not the name.

And ionian greeks come from Ionia, not turkey. Ionian greeks never lived in a land called "turkey", which is why you should label it as anatolia. This is your website so you can do whatever you want with it.
 
Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

aegean-map.jpg

They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.
 
Elias leave the retard,

he believes that all Greece and makedonia was slavic before 1912,
He believes that Greeks change language and not his father,

he does not spoke about the greeks of Fyrom but about the few slavic of Makedonia,

just leave him boil in his hate,


Dejavu you live in sweden and push your stupidity to create wars where not exist,

In sunday I was swimming with my friend toni from Skopje at Neoi Poroi beach and drunk a wine he brought, you know something, 99% of Fyrom knows the bullshit you are talking,

Nothing is gona happen and Greece is more innocent than you and your party is,

You speak about the Few Slavophones of Makedonia,
But you do not speak about the 00 000 of Grecophones of Skopje,


when you find what happened to them, then speak again,

now back to your mud
if your father change the Makedonian language and followed Dusan or Cimeon the rest did not,

and you know something, nobody believes you even in your country,

I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.
 
I don't know wheather I should have negative feelings towards peopel like Dejavu or sympathy. They have been at the crossroads of bulgaria, serb, and greek nationalism. First they were leaning towards being Bulgarian, then they came under the conrol of serbia, and serbia tried to serbify them, then under communisn Tito "macedonianized" them, so they never had any time to sit back and reflect. Now they took Tito's idea to the extreme and say they are decendant from ancient macedons and greeks are criminals, so natually I feel defensive. If we just accept and say they are macedonians we would be lying to ourselves and ignoring history, not to mention starting up new territorial disputes where there need not be.

I think the best solution would be negotiated half way and come to the solution of a slav-macedonian identity, with a country name reflecting that. Ironicaly, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia does that job as a country name.


I might agree some Slavic populations lived besides makedonians, they might have that name but not with the bullshit they claim,
a slavo-makedonia as name is correct and sends each stupid back to where belong,
besides Slavic-Makedonia is a name accepted by all, exept Fyromians,
 
Ok Maciamo, here is an example of what the greeks are negotiating with. This picture represents what ankara would like to see as a solution to this agean dispute;

View attachment 5040

They want the sea and air boundaries to be as follows, totaly ignoring the fact that greek islands lay just off the coast of turkey, and thus putting them under turkish sovereignty. So I ask you again, maybe you should learn more about the disputes between Greece and Turkey before you say such things like "kick the greeks out of the EU untill they learn to deal with Turkey", because that would require what I just showed you.

Again, greeks don't like bullshit, and Turkey under the leadership of AKP thinks itself as a superpower that doesnt' need to follow international law.

Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.
 
So genocide is fine during war time to you? I guess the holocaust against the jews is fine aswell, as it happened during war. I guess the hague should stop the trial of the bosnian serb who is accused of genocide against muslims slavs because serbia was at war at the time. You're stretching your rationality in trying to defend you position. The genocide that happened to the christian population of anatolia was terrible. Even christians employed in the trukish army was dismissed then killed. Hundreds of armenians were serving in the ottoman army were dismissed of duty and killed not because of allegiance but because turks were afraid of yet another supressed people demanding a country for themselves out of ottoman occupied land. The kurds are in the same boat now. Western europe turned a blind eye to the events that happened in this region, which was a mistake because they are still causing problems today, and will continue too, so Maciamo turn a blind eye again if it suits you.

I don't care what you think is the definition of genocide. Logic dictates that if killing lots of civilians in Turkey is a genocide, then killing lots of civilians in Russia or Italy or France is a genocide too. But you will not find a single reference to genocide in Russia or Italy during WWI, even though 3 million Russian civilians and 600,000 Italian civilians died. Why ? I think the answer is simply that both Armenians and Greeks like to call the events a genocide to get back at Turkey. They intentionally liken themselves to the Jews to draw international attention and to make other people feel more sorry for them than for WWI victims in other countries. I think it is selfish, childish and manipulative. Big massacres have happened all the time throughout history and yet there are only a handful of officially recognised genocides. Interestingly the Greeks and Armenians only started to use the term 'genocide' after WWII, not right after WWI.

For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.

The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were terrible massacres too, that killed over 200,000 people in just a few minutes. But nobody calls them genocide, even in Japan.

Different words have different meanings or nuances. A genocide is a kind of massacre, but not all massacres are genocides. The use of the word 'genocide' only became widespread after the Jewish Holocaust. Another common use is the killing of some plant or animal species until extinction. We could say that the gorillas or the rhinoceroses of Africa, or the tigers in Asia have undergone a quasi-genocide from human beings. Greeks and Armenians haven't. As sad and tragic as the death of 300,000 people is, they barely represent 1% of all the people with dominant Greek ancestry in the world (taking South Italians into account). It really cannot be likened to the scale of the Jewish genocide, in which two-thirds of European Jews perished, i.e. roughly 50% of the global Jewish population. I hope you understand the difference of amplitude.

I am also completely opposed to the use of the term 'genocide' for what happened in Bosnia in 1992-5. Only 8,000 people died, a fraction of the global annual deaths directly caused by the tobacco industry, and about 1/1000 of the scale of the Jewish genocide. Unfortunately it has become increasingly fashionable to label any massacre as genocide by unscrupulous sensationalist media and politicians. But that's hardly a reference to follow.

So you take the stance that it is greece's fault that ties with turkey are strained because turkey is still hostile to greece? and those turkish planes flying over greek island arn't really there, it's all our imagination? and threatens greece with war if greece demands its natural sea rights as stated in internation law? but it is greece's fault right?
...
Turkey has problems with all its neighbours but you place the blame on its neighbours and not it. Sorry I don't think you are being rational and are very biased. I also don't think your perception of modern turkey fits the reality of it.

If Turkey ever attacks Greece, it will jeopardise its chances of ever being admitted to the EU, and will suffer EU retaliations. Whatever you think, the Turks aren't crazy. They know that it is not in their best interest to act on their provocations. Nevertheless they won't make progress in their accession talks until they settle matters with the Greeks and Kurds. I am neither pro-Greek nor pro-Turk, nor am I anti-Greek or anti-Turk. If you think that I am pro-Turk, then you should know that I am strongly in favour of the Kurdish independence. And if that makes me look pro-Kurdish, I actually never want to see them in the EU (contrarily to the Turks). Actually I believe that Turkey must let Kurdistan go if it wants to join the EU. Cyprus is really too complicated. It's an impasse like Jerusalem or Brussels.

Greeks arn't immature people, we just don't like bullshit. We don't like this new imperialistic turkey as our neighbour, we don't like these slavs calling themselves macedonians just because yugoslavia fell apart, and are inventing a history for themselves in which greeks are the bad guys because greece and serbia beat bulgaria in the second balkan war. We don't like how greece has got into financial ruins because bankers and corrupt politicians became to greedy, and now the normal greek has to pay.

It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?

As for Greece's current financial troubles, it is almost only due to the twisting of figures and artificial boosting of the economy to join the Eurozone. It is Goldman Sachs that helped Greece mask its true debt back in 2002 (orther sources : The Independent and NY Times).
 
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Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.

"vetoed Turkey's EU membership"???
In case you haven't heard, Greece has been a strong supporter of Turkey's EU membership for the last 20 years.
 
Thanks for illustrating my point. If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long, Turkey would probably be in the EU and such territorial issues wouldn't exist. I am not saying it is only Greece's fault, but both Greece's and Turkey's. That's why I said that both should have solved their conflict before being admitted in the EU.


Macciamo what are you talking about?

GREECE IS NOT VETOING TURKEY,
GREECE IS ASKING FOR INTERNATIONAL LAWS TO BE AMONG 2 COUNTRIES

TURKEY HAS 2 FOR GREECE and 1 for Cyprus
Turkey attacked Greek Lands of Imia Kardak at 1990s

and still is not vetoing,
ARE WE NUTS?
how you make an alliance when he has 2 casus Beli on you?
do you know that Greek fisherman are in terror of Turkish naval,
do you know how many warm days happened in Samothrake,
when Turkish warships enter the 12 miles zone and hunt Greek fishermans
are we nuts?

besides when do you see that Greece vote Veto for Turkey?

IN FACT BEFORE FEW DAYS THE EUROPEAN Committee FOR HANDLING CRISIS ASK TURKEY TO RECOGNISE 12 MILES ZONE OF GREEK COASTS

are we nuts,
I hear it first time by you that greek vote Veto
in fact it was 1 time austria and 1 time france and finland who veto
Greece ask
1 open the Chalke theological school
2 recon autonomy of the patriarch the fanari block as in vatican
3 recon the 12 miles zone of international sea rights
4 stop the military airflights above aegean all year except november february and march for both sides so to avoid warm days and turists travell with no fear all summer,
5 stop the military naval practise from months april to octomber so yachts travell free
6 All differences must be handle under international laws

19/7/2011
Ergogan words

WE WILL NOT NEGOTIATE WITH A COUNTRY WE DON'T RECOGNISE
said Erdogan to cyprus
are we Nuts they don't recogn Cyprus a member of EU and they want to enter Eu


20/07/2011
'We will not speak for 6 months with the EU as long as President is Cyprus,
we consider it a big shame to sit at same table with a country we don't recognize,
(cyprus a pirate or a terrorist state? a country member of EU? is not recognized?)
speech at occupied cyprus lands

how can this be done when a Cyprus Merchant ship if pass 12 miles may be sunk by Turkish Naval forces, what of europe will be?

is the Eu you Dream?
to have 3 countries with no International laws among them
how they enter EU when they say that every ship with cyprus flag is a pirate ship and will be sunk if reach the coasts of turkey

and besides all These Cyprus did not ask Veto
but ask International laws to be executed,
DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT MEANS I DO NOT RECON THE CYPRUS DEMOCRACY
IN CASE OF VOTE IN A EU COUNCIL WHAT THEY SAY?
THAT CYPRUS VOTE DOES NOT COUNT?

the case is as they told you
the illegal is not Greece or Cyprus
Both did not put Veto,
the ask International laws and lift of Casus Beli to both

It is another story the I don't like Greeks and another to say incorrect informations that someone heard in a cafe, or in a tavern,

Remember Bartholomaios is the Last Patriarcha Oikoumenica
cause he is from the last class that finished chalke patriarchical school
after him if chalke do not open the next patrircha oikoymenica will be as order wants it

it is like having a pope that was not followed the order to become a pope

although I am not cristian and I still find it silly the case of popes and patriarches
majority of people thinks different,


but Greece vote Veto first time I hear it,

on the other hand I know that Austrian Veto lifted after Greek pressure for supporting Turkey to join EU
this are bullshit propagandas for inner consumption to turkey to keep on the hate,

about the Greek economical crisis the Goldmans Sachs case, that is drop that made glass overwhelmed, and you very well mention about it,
in fact I believe that Eu should hang the ones behind,
there are many more reasons, and the solutions that Eu and IMF gave are not the best,
they sunk deeper Greek economy for 2 years to a selected default, just to save euro, instead of save greece,
but when time comes who will send to USA the IMF, it is almost at the same class with Portugal and Ireland, at >85% analogy of Greek depth,
the game is that some money voltures want to gain by changing the balance of dollar and EU,
if you watch market then check gold and swiss currency to understand,

the point is that All european countries knew about it from 2004 but did not say a word why?


And offcourse Makedonia case
hm well think that someone today calls that Belgians are in Alps and Belgians are Belgians but Irish or whatever, how will you act?

the term Makedonia as Ethnicity and History and Blood has nothing to with Skopje-Fyrom etc,
the romas as they did in Illyricum they also did in Greece split Greece to 2 parts Achaia and Makedonia, and added in Makedonia Paeonia,
that is a geographical term, not an ethnicity term,
besides it is not The Makedonia that asks land from Fyrom, but the Fyrom ask Lands from Greece,
It is not a Name, it is an ID, except if you believe that ancient Makedonians were Slavic people, which is at least ......
 
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For me the definition of genocide is very simple. If one ethnic group wants to eradicate an entire other ethnic group from the earth (and not just kill or expel those who live in their country), then it is a genocide (even if they don't succeed). As far as I know, only the Nazi and the Tutsi of Rwanda-Burundi ever intended genocide in modern times.

That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2"

Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead

Both groups where not participating in the conflicts at the time, the ottomans just wanted them exterminated because they were afraid of more countries breaking away very soon because they were going to lose ww1, just like how they are afraid of kurdistan breaking away today, which I fully support.



It's amazing though that Greece is the only EU country with so many problems with its neighbours. What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name freely. What if they had chosen North Greece, the way there is North and South Korea, or that there is Sudan and South Sudan now ?

Greece has problems with two neighbours, FYROM and Turkey. FYROM solution is easy, they just don't want to compromise, Turkey is another story, they think they are a superpower. Both situations E.U. has agreed greece is in the right, and supports greece in both issues. Balkans is not like western europe if you havn't noticed. America has supported greece in the name issue as well, a 360 degree change from recognizing them when they first seperated form yugoslavia, now hilary clinton on her visit to athens says they want to see a mutually acceptable name, somethign FYROM dislikes because they actually beleive they are ancient macedons.

Oh and to correct you, that region of FYROM was never in the kingdom of macedon proper, it was called Paeonia, so no it's not historical macedonia, let alone filled with ancient macedons. It was conqured by macedon, but so was the entire middle east, so afghanistan was the same right to called themselves Macedonia as Skopje does. But just saying this ignores the 2000 year history of that region to the present.
Skopia recently just constructed a multi-million dollar statue of alexander, which caused them to reseive backlash from Brussels. And no they would not have chosen the name northern greece beacuse they are not greeks, they are slavs, so it would not had made sence, just like how calling themselves ancient macedonians doesn't make sence.

And another thing, greece never vetoed Turkish memebrship to EU, so try again at your reasons why they want the maritime and air boarders like that. I'll give you a hint, imperialism.
 
That's yoru definition, this is mine, and is the same are the recognised definition;

"Genocide is defined as "the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group",[1] though what constitutes enough of a "part" to qualify as genocide has been subject to much debate by legal scholars.[2"

Pontians - racial group, Christians - religions, group 300,000 dead
Armenians - racial group, Christians - religion, 1.5 million dead

And don't forget:
Assyrians - racial group, Christians - religion, about 500,000 dead

Those are the three committed by the Ottomans during World War I as recognized by the IAGS, which is generally quite well-respected. Certainly, the above definition and the understanding adopted by the IAGS are more in-line with what we think of as genocide. Maciamo's is more restrictive than the common usage of the term, but may highlight a particular type of genocide (one motivated by the hope of total eradication rather than simple eradication from a particular area--the only major difference in practice being that sometimes the second is combined with deportation).
 
What's the point arguing with your northern neighbours about their country's name (Macedonia) when it is the actual historical name of the region, and that nobody outside Greece call your country the way you do (Ellada) ? I think that people have the right to choose their country's name.

Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.:petrified:
 
Greece is actually officially named the Hellenic Republic or Elliniki Dimokratia and Ellatha (Ellada) is only the genetive case for the word Hellas. Hellas is, of course, the ancient or traditional name for the lands inhabited by the Hellenes. But as you say, people do have the right to choose their country's name.

As interesting as this discussion has been and as much as I am learning it has become out of hand and way off topic. Far too much sensitivity being displayed by some and, unfortunately, it is starting to resemble the Spanish topics.:petrified:

Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!
 
Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!

you may a right, and thanks for try to calm down, the case has to do with propagandas and war attempts, and claim lands,

ww2 was not the last in Europe,
 
I have been watching these forums the last two days,I don't know much about Y-DNA but for what I'm reading with some easy "googles" is not something to be taken 100% for granted.I would like to learn more about it thought,even that I'm not a geneticist and I may not understand much.

Maciamo are you a scientist beyond the admin of this cafeteria called eupedia forums?
I see much arrogance on your posts it makes me wonder,do you really have a degree on what you are talking about?

Now,I'll give you some reasons on why Greeks don't trust Turkey now and if you want the EU and the USA(I won't disagree that Greece today is a country that produces almost nothing in which a lot of people entered a mismanaged public sector).Turkey has been sending Afghanis and Pakistanis illegal immigrant constantly to Greece and EU does nothing about it,NATO needs Turkey to control the middle-near East so the EU will follow,these people stay in poor Greece forever,very few of these immigrants reach Germany with the so called immigrant problem,when I was in Germany the only immigrants I saw were some Turks pretending to be Ice-cube(the rapper) and some Polish kids with skate shoes,in general people that would survive in their own countries but I guess Germany doesn't take second-class immigrants and they still manage to get a high crime rate lol,I would guess the same for Belgium.The immigrants here live in abandoned basements,piss on the roads and give you the killer look that destroys your mood before work,no they don't see you like the tanned(?) brother but as a Christian political friend of the guy that broke in their houses and killed their families.I won't be surprised if the next bombings following Oslo will be in the tired center of Athens,myself I'm not daring to visit it.Moreover,Turks are making propaganda on these immigrants in the name of Islam(the ones that got rid to Greece lulz) to cause trouble in Greece,Turks want Greece to fail in order to use the Aegean sea for trading,they invading and fishing in Greek waters everyday but again USA and EU do nothing because they need Turkey.I suppose you live in a butterfly world,eating Belgian chocolate,watching the news and trying to find the halpogroupish way to define the bad and the good guy.

If Greece hadn't vetoed Turkey's EU membership for so long
What are you talking about?

Are you making propaganda yourself?Why?Are you working for some sc@m genetics company for which Greeks isn't the target group?

But I don't think so,in my opinion you are just one of those "not so smart guys" who are bored to look at the official sources so you will reproduce everything propagandish you've heard or you'll make it by yourself.

So let's act as strict Europe AS A WHOLE,delete your forums after being exposed making propaganda-giving false information,give the right example as a Belgian to these deluded Greeks.

FORZA STRICTISCH EUROPA
DELETE THEM
 
Mmm, like I said, far too much sensitivity being displayed and personal attacks on other contributors don't help. Maciamo's view on Greece is not unusual, in fact his is a typical example of most who do not live in the region. It is not because he is ignorant nor arrogant it is because of the wrong perception given and the misinformation spread by the media. And we in Greece are not doing ourselves any favours if we are going to take everthing uttered about Greece as a personal insult, instead of explaining the situation calmly and clearly.

After listening to the stupidity of reports and the hype on Greece by the BBC, CNN and Der Spiegel over the last few months I've got to wonder if there is any situation in the world where we are given an accurate account in which we can trust.
 
Mmm, like I said, far too much sensitivity being displayed and personal attacks on other contributors don't help. Maciamo's view on Greece is not unusual, in fact his is a typical example of most who do not live in the region. It is not because he is ignorant nor arrogant it is because of the wrong perception given and the misinformation spread by the media. And we in Greece are not doing ourselves any favours if we are going to take everthing uttered about Greece as a personal insult, instead of explaining the situation calmly and clearly.

After listening to the stupidity of reports and the hype on Greece by the BBC, CNN and Der Spiegel over the last few months I've got to wonder if there is any situation in the world where we are given an accurate account in which we can trust.

Where is that much sensitivity exactly?
I'm explaining why Greeks don't trust Turkey and can't see EU as an elitist.

Personal insults?
I didn't say anything about his mother,I said how I see him as he used his terms to stereotype me as a Greek.Still I asked,is he a professor or something?Does he have a degree at least?

Maciamo is a guy that pretends to show people which populations descent from(their fathers) but he was caught giving and highlighting fake information,you don't have to live in Greece to know that it hasn't been vetoing.

And I am calm,only 2 lines at the end in CAPS,and by myself I believe that Greeks say some right things among a lot BS that they say but they're not taken seriously because they're shouting.Overall,these media you are talking about are right,they may emphasize things too much but Greece of today is a country that doesn't produce much,people have been living on government's back which has been living on the bankers' back and instead of trying their luck to the farms they're protesting like there is money left(not speaking about every protester).What more should we explain calmly and clearly?Greece is a sh!th@le and Maciamo a propagandist,simple things.
 
I don't think we need to even blame anyone, let alone Maciano,
Its a pity that the worst treaty in the history of Europe ( Congress of Vienna 1820 ) has taken Europe down this megalistic trait called Nationalism , where certain rules from this congress prevented people having their own nation or conferation of a nation.
Greece and Italy had to resort to foreign "royalties" to become Kings and so be recognised in Europe as either Greeks or Italians, The Greeks got a Bavarian, the Italians a frenchman from Savoy.

Its a pity that every country in europe does not follow the Swiss system of a conferation of states to make a nation. 500 plus years of peace is testimony to how good it works.
 
Yes, before I joined Eupedia I wasn't aware of the fact how sensitive such topics about nationality and ethnicity still are in today's Europe. It is ridiculous because people can only be judged by their very own actions in life and how they personally cope with their environment. Yet, many people still define themselves with other groups of people, perceiving insults where there are none, living prejudices and accusations as they are passed on from one person to the next. Intelligence and character traits may be inherited. But good breeding, manners, values and respect for other people are not!
Welcome to the club Mzungu, lol, it was my impressions too, that I'm joining a very egalitarian/international/open minded society on international wide web forums of Eupedia. The real life proved me wrong unfortunately.
Reading this thread makes me wonder if the Greek dislike for there neighbors come from education, or should we look for a hate gene in Balkan nations?
 

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