North-African admixture in Europe (Dienekes K12b, 2012)

Dienekes notes that HG A and B are purely African Y-haplogroups whereas HG D is East Asian. He states that sccording to the new software preliminary findings show that African populations with HG E have proportionally higher amounts of West Eurasian genetic input suggesting that HG E may not be 'entirely' African. This is interesting as it links HG E with Eurasia and not with Africa as first thought. No doubt this will be followed up with some interesting comments and articles.
 
Yes Dorian, these are fascinating findings. Seems like the Out of Arabia hypothesis suggested by Dienekes' regarding modern human origins, was more than pure fantasy and must be considered. If we asume that haplogroup E originated somewhere around the Arabian Península, and that humans who carried the ancient marker were already more caucasoid than anything else (or I'd better talk about affinities with modern caucasoids, not easy to define), then, some things begin making more sense.


I know it's too early and quite dificult to state how old is the West Eurasian influence found among deep Sub-Saharan populations, specially those living in a more Western direction. But you know, it's impossible to avoid thinking about this and remembering possible related discussions.
 
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Dienekes notes that HG A and B are purely African Y-haplogroups whereas HG D is East Asian. He states that sccording to the new software preliminary findings show that African populations with HG E have proportionally higher amounts of West Eurasian genetic input suggesting that HG E may not be 'entirely' African. This is interesting as it links HG E with Eurasia and not with Africa as first thought. No doubt this will be followed up with some interesting comments and articles.

Haplogroup E would then be some sort of Back migration to Africa but when did this migration occur? It would be interesting if its correlated with the spread Afro Asiatic languages to Africa.
 
Yes Dorian, these are fascinating findings. Seems like the Out of Arabia hypothesis suggested by Dienekes' regarding modern human origins, was more than pure fantasy and must be considered. If we asume that haplogroup E originated somewhere around the Arabian Península, and that humans who carried the ancient marker were already more caucasoid than anything else (or I'd better talk about affinities with modern caucasoids, not easy to define), then, some things begin making more sense.


I know it's too early and quite dificult to state how old is the West Eurasian influence found among deep Sub-Saharan populations, specially those living in a more Western direction. But you know, it's impossible to avoid thinking about this and remembering possible related discussions.

Coon's theory consists of a linear continuum with Eurasians on the one end and Pygmy and San on the other end. Dienekes decided to test this out and found that the Pygmy and San are indeed farthest away on the PC plot from Eurasians with the Yoruba being the closest African population. East African populations such as the Ethiopians have even more Eurasian but this includes more recent Arabic and SW Asian input which is not what Dienekes is interested in as he would like to focus on the palaeo-Eurasian component in Africans.
 
My values... 5% of north african. I am from lisbon and all of my ancestors lived nearby lisbon.
Population
Gedrosia5.18%
Siberian-
Northwest_African4.98%
Southeast_Asian-
Atlantic_Med43.11%
North_European24.66%
South_Asian0.45%
East_African0.84%
Southwest_Asian7.08%
East_Asian-
Caucasus13.41%
Sub_Saharan0.29%
 
These kind of population genetics are crap, in this case specifically he's probably finding the visigoths and berbers in africa, not africans in europe.

There are even a few people who seem to believe the irish came from north africa if you can believe it.

You can't take these too seriously because the reference populations make very huge assumptions about what an african or european is and gets easily foiled by selection, too.
 
Interesting. thanks for the post.
 
It is also interesting to note that the distribution of North African admixture in Iberia in Dodecad/K12b is similar to what was found by Adams et al. 2008 (The Genetic Legacy of Religious Diversity and Intolerance: Paternal Lineages of Christians, Jews, and Muslims in the Iberian Peninsula at .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/?tool=pmcentrez) and also reflects the distibution of E-M81 (berber) haplogroup


1) E-M81 distribution calculated by Adams et al. 2008

Castile, NorthWest10010.00%
Andalucia, West739.59%
Portugal, South787.69%
Galicia889.09%
Extremadura527.69%
Valencia734.11%
Portugal, North603.33%
Castile, NorthEast313.23%
Aragon342.94%
Andalucia, East952.11%
Castile, La Mancha631.59%
Catalonia801.25%
Basques1160.86%
Asturias200.00%


2) North African admixture calculated by Adams et al. 2008


Iberian region%NW African male admixture
Castile, NorthWest21.7%
Galicia20.8%
Extremadura19%
Andalucia, West16.7%
Portugal, South16.1%
Valencia12.8%
Portugal, North11.8%
Asturias10.5%
Castile, NorthEast9.3%
Majorca6.6%
Aragon4.8%
Ibiza3.8%
Andalucia, East2.4%
Catalonia2.3%
Castilla0.9%

Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?
 
Historical reasons for high North African admixture in Galicia?

Or Cantabria, or Asturias. The pattern for African DNA frequencies in Iberia does not follow historical events. This has been noticed many times, including Eupedia itself. The people who should have the most (southerners) actually have less of it than people who should have less of it (westerners), thus strongly suggesting that African DNA in Iberia is due to older events. Also, autosomal studies that have actually bothered to estimate a time-frame for this DNA in Iberia have found it to be from pre-Islamic times.
 
Or Cantabria, or Asturias. The pattern for African DNA frequencies in Iberia does not follow historical events. This has been noticed many times, including Eupedia itself. The people who should have the most (southerners) actually have less of it than people who should have less of it (westerners), thus strongly suggesting that African DNA in Iberia is due to older events. Also, autosomal studies that have actually bothered to estimate a time-frame for this DNA in Iberia have found it to be from pre-Islamic times.

Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?
 
Asturians have much less NA admixture than most of Iberians, Cantabria as well except for the Pasiegos but they are an ethnic group.
You must read the differences between Spanish_North and other Spanish in the Haak et al. paper.
Notice the differences between West and East Andalucia, the east part (Granada) had a repopulation and it's showing in these admixtures.
Anyway probably some admixture arrived during the Carthaginian era and pre-historical era, notice that some parts of south Europe are close geographically to North Africa, Gibraltar is more or less 10 km.
 
Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?

the only event I could think of is the spread of cattle through North-Africa which could have continued into Iberia, but that would have been some 8000 years ago

people from Carthago never got that far north/northwest as Cantabria or Asturias
 
In Cruciani et al 2004, the frequency of African marker E-M81 was 41% among Pasiegos from Cantabria. That's the highest frequency found so far in Europe.
 
Asturians in Adams et al table have 0% of M81 though and the peak in Cantabria is in the Pasiegos who are an ethnic population with unknown origins afaik, ohterwise ethnic Cantabrias have less NA admixture.
Anyway for Iberian peninsula there is more like a west-east gradient thant north-south.

http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pasiego
 
In Martínez-Cruz et al. 2012 the frequency of E-M81 in Cantabria is 5.5%.
 
Ok, pre-Islamic times but when? Were these haplogroups (North African admixture) part of Iberian ethnos?

Moorjani et al. 2011 estimate shows it to be several centuries older, and Lazaridis et al. 2013 estimate anywhere between a few centuries to even as much as a few thousand years before Islam even existed. Its presence in Iberia is very likely prehistoric with some later contribution closer to Carthaginian/Roman times. So very little of it could be due to Islamic times.
 

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