Serb and Croat genes

The error that you seem to be repeating continually over the discourse of which populations are of haplogroup and admixture is that you are not distinguishing between isolated populations and whole populations. If we further extend this to consider that "Serbs are more closely related to Bosnians, or Bosnians are more closely related to Croats" the reasoning behind this seems to be that since certain people live in certain areas that the correlation between their actual lineage is compelling enough to make distinctions within boundaries that are known as nation states. If you even looked at population demographics of municipalities in Hercegovina, you would realize that there are areas that are homogenous with respect to either the nationality of "Croatian, Serbian, or Bosnian (Muslim)." In due course, we should also consider that since there is a high degree of segregation within these municipalities that the genetic composition within them is not comparable to municipalities that are 99% Serbian or 99% Bosnian. Segregation would lead to isolative reproduction and in due course genetic homogeny.
You're focused quite contently on the religious notion of culture rather than than a model that is insistent on a religious culture procuring genetic homogeninity for adaptive reasons.

In any such respect we should consider the origin of Halpogroup I2a2 to found in highest frequency in Hercegovina (71%), which, thus, correlates to the cultural capital of Illiyria (Stolac, Hercegovina) - and more than likely the originator of the haplogroup (since it is well isolated demographically in mountanous regions).

In any regard, I do not know why you do not consider the I haplogroup and others to be of Neanderthal origin, since, accordingly, there is presumable evidence to suggest that microcephalin to have been injected into the gene pool 37kya. And, further, the neanderthal genome project has recently discovered evidence of inbreeding between cro-magnum and neanderthals and can not ruled out up to 20% intermixture with statistical significance.

pnas.org/content/103/48/18178.full
 
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Thanks Sprinkles for sharing. It's interesting and intriguing. I hope in not far future will get detailed genetic map of Europe, and also map that tracks gen pool movement through history, from Neanderthals, Cro Magnons to recent.
 
The error that you seem to be repeating continually over the discourse of which populations are of haplogroup and admixture is that you are not distinguishing between isolated populations and whole populations. If we further extend this to consider that "Serbs are more closely related to Bosnians, or Bosnians are more closely related to Croats" the reasoning behind this seems to be that since certain people live in certain areas that the correlation between their actual lineage is compelling enough to make distinctions within boundaries that are known as nation states. If you even looked at population demographics of municipalities in Hercegovina, you would realize that there are areas that are homogenous with respect to either the nationality of "Croatian, Serbian, or Bosnian (Muslim)." In due course, we should also consider that since there is a high degree of segregation within these municipalities that the genetic composition within them is not comparable to municipalities that are 99% Serbian or 99% Bosnian. Segregation would lead to isolative reproduction and in due course genetic homogeny.
You're focused quite contently on the religious notion of culture rather than than a model that is insistent on a religious culture procuring genetic homogeninity for adaptive reasons.

In any such respect we should consider the origin of Halpogroup I2a2 to found in highest frequency in Hercegovina (67%), which, thus, correlates to the cultural capital of Illiyria (Stolac, Hercegovina) - and more than likely the originator of the haplogroup (since it is well isolated demographically in mountanous regions).

In any regard, I do not know why you do not consider the I haplogroup and others to be of Neanderthal origin, since, accordingly, there is presumable evidence to suggest that microcephalin to have been injected into the gene pool 37kya. And, further, the neanderthal genome project has recently discovered evidence of inbreeding between cro-magnum and neanderthals and can not ruled out up to 20% intermixture with statistical significance.

pnas.org/content/103/48/18178.full
Just to get some facts straight,highest percentage of I2a2 so far is found amoung Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
I didn't read anything about highest frequencies in Stolac,do you have some information we don't know about?
Besides,I think Illyrians were predominantly R1b,like Celts probably.
Illyrians proper lived in today Montenegro,(northern?) Albania and southernmost areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
That corresponds to the higher frequencies of R1b in those areas,in southern Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina you have really small frequencies of r1b,but in southernmost,Dubrovnik area,it elevates to ~17%.
Check the study 'Croatia and its island isolates' in PDF format for this.
 
Just to get some facts straight,highest percentage of I2a2 so far is found amoung Croats of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
I didn't read anything about highest frequencies in Stolac,do you have some information we don't know about?
Besides,I think Illyrians were predominantly R1b,like Celts probably.
Illyrians proper lived in today Montenegro,(northern?) Albania and southernmost areas of Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.
That corresponds to the higher frequencies of R1b in those areas,in southern Croatia and in Bosnia-Herzegovina you have really small frequencies of r1b,but in southernmost,Dubrovnik area,it elevates to ~17%.
Check the study 'Croatia and its island isolates' in PDF format for this.
My claim was that the capital of cultural Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina.

This correlates with the highest percent of Haplogroup I2a2 being found amongst Croatian's in Hercegovina.

upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Illyrians.jpg

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians
The Illyrians formed several kingdoms in the central Balkans, and the first known Illyrian king was Bardyllis. Illyrian kingdoms were often at war with ancient Macedonia, and the Illyrian pirates were also a significant danger to neighbouring peoples. At the delta of Neretva, there was a strong[27] Hellenistic influence on the Illyrian tribe of Daors. Their capital was Daorson located in Ošanići near Stolac in Herzegovina, which became the main center of classical Illyrian culture. Daorson, during the 4th century BC, was surrounded by megalithic, 5 meter high stonewalls (large as those of Mycenae in Greece), composed out of large trapeze stones blocks. Daors also made unique bronze coins and sculptures. The Illyrians even conquered Greek colonies on the Dalmatian islands. Queen Teuta was famous for having waged wars against the Romans

In the Illyrian Wars of 229 BC, 219 BC and 168 BC Rome overran the Illyrian settlements and suppressed the piracy[28] that had made the Adriatic unsafe for Italian commerce. There were three campaigns, the first against Teuta the second against Demetrius of Pharos[29] and the third against Gentius. The initial campaign in 229 BC marks the first time that the Roman Navy crossed the Adriatic Sea to launch an invasion.[30]
 
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16266413?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4

The variation at 28 Y-chromosome biallelic markers was analysed in 256 males (90 Croats, 81 Serbs and 85 Bosniacs) from Bosnia-Herzegovina. An important shared feature between the three ethnic groups is the high frequency of the "Palaeolithic" European-specific haplogroup (Hg) I, a likely signature of a Balkan population re-expansion after the Last Glacial Maximum. This haplogroup is almost completely represented by the sub-haplogroup I-P37 whose frequency is, however, higher in the Croats (approximately 71%) than in Bosniacs (approximately 44%) and Serbs (approximately 31%). Other rather frequent haplogroups are E (approximately 15%) and J (approximately 7%), which are considered to have arrived from the Middle East in Neolithic and post-Neolithic times, and R-M17 (approximately 14%), which probably marked several arrivals, at different times, from eastern Eurasia. Hg E, almost exclusively represented by its subclade E-M78, is more common in the Serbs (approximately 20%) than in Bosniacs (approximately 13%) and Croats (approximately 9%), and Hg J, observed in only one Croat, encompasses approximately 9% of the Serbs and approximately 12% of the Bosniacs, where it shows its highest diversification. By contrast, Hg R-M17 displays similar frequencies in all three groups. On the whole, the three main groups of Bosnia-Herzegovina, in spite of some quantitative differences, share a large fraction of the same ancient gene pool distinctive for the Balkan area.
 
That's OK,but where from should we conclude that I2a2 has the highest frequency in Stolac?
And there was no specific research for Croats from Herzegovina,there was only for Herzegovinians in general,samples from Mostar(Croats and Muslims and a few Serbs) and Široki Brijeg(Croats),and it showed 64% of I2a.It would probably reach 70% if only Croats were tested,but we can't know that.
Highest frequency so far is found among Croats of the state of Bosnia and Herzegovina in general.
 
In any regard, I do not know why you do not consider the I haplogroup and others to be of Neanderthal origin, since, accordingly, there is presumable evidence to suggest that microcephalin to have been injected into the gene pool 37kya. And, further, the neanderthal genome project has recently discovered evidence of inbreeding between cro-magnum and neanderthals and can not ruled out up to 20% intermixture with statistical significance.

When you say that hg I is of Neanderthal origin, I suppose that you mean that early Cro-Magnons of hg I were the ones who mixed with Neanderthals, not that haplogroup I in itself is a Neanderthal lineage, right ?
 
Where are your sources from? Slovenians yes thats true for them for Croats it is not. Alpine in Croatia would be a dinaric seeing as dinaric is actually the true "alpine" subrace hence it being on the taller and stronger end of the European subraces. In Croatia you have the Dinaric Alps thats your mountain range dinaric alps= dinaric subrace. atlanto med is present but only on the adriactic coast where the ocean is. but still its not the majority only like 10% of the total.
just to answer properly to this-there is absolutely no chance Croatia is 85% Dinaric/Noric.This is just someone's masturbation.Mcculoch's masturbation.
More like 50% predominantly Dinaric/Noric/Keltic.
 
In any regard, I do not know why you do not consider the I haplogroup and others to be of Neanderthal origin, since, accordingly, there is presumable evidence to suggest that microcephalin to have been injected into the gene pool 37kya. And, further, the neanderthal genome project has recently discovered evidence of inbreeding between cro-magnum and neanderthals and can not ruled out up to 20% intermixture with statistical significance.
It is not simple as you think. First we must conclude that Adam was not 100.000 but at least 350.000 years before. Then we must make older all other haplogroups. Then we must find an explanation why Mtdna Neanderthal is different from Mtdna Sapiens.

For Neanderthal, I think all european peoples have These traits. R1a and R1b did'nt brought any physicall traits to Europe, because they were racially assimilated through the mixing with native women.
 
just to answer properly to this-there is absolutely no chance Croatia is 85% Dinaric/Noric.This is just someone's masturbation.Mcculoch's masturbation.
More like 50% predominantly Dinaric/Noric/Keltic.

keltic what the hell are you talking about that is a subrace almost foreign to the balkans. so give me your break down then of subraces in croatia
 
keltic what the hell are you talking about that is a subrace almost foreign to the balkans. so give me your break down then of subraces in croatia
wtf are you talking about??
 
Seems that you are nicely filled with propaganda,like most of your compatriots,especially i'f you are just Canadian of Serb origin:)D)
First,most of Croatia ain't on the Balkans,just to correct that technical mistake.And correspondingly,whole northern Croatia(and a bit in the south) has been more or less inhabited by the Celts.
Concerning my breakdown of subraces,i certainly wouldn't give Dinaric/Noric/Keltic more than 50-55%,that's ridiculous.Adequate space for Alpine,Nordic(with Faelid),Borreby and Med among Croatian sub-races should be made.

And you know that Serbs have about 4 times more those 'Near Eastern' linegaes than Croats and Slovenians in their haplogroups,and also were 500 years under Turks,that's why you are so darker than Croatians,Slovenians or Czechs.
 
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celts inhabitated all of the blakans that was thouands of years ago. celts were also in spain and theres even greater influence or connection look at R1b values and yet the so called celtic type is rare there. Croatia is in the balkans it is not a central european country as you try and make it seem. the only south slavs who have any notable pigemnt difference is slovenians who are actually central european and in the north.

E,J etc.. have no effect on phenotype no haplogroup does for that matter. how come you see R1b in cameroon and in Scandinavia yet the two populations look completly different??

Accorind to you eh and who exactly are you?? show me one source that supports what you are saying in regards to subraces.
 
There are plenty of Atlantic Celtic phenotypes in Spain / Iberia. Forget the idiotic media stereotypes of Spaniards, they have little to do with reality. Actually, a great many of the ancient Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed. Once again, forget the stereotype. The population of Spain (and Portugal), particularly the central, west and north, is majority Paleo-Atlantid and Nordid-Atlantid in appearance. Atlantic facial structures are very much dominant, with a variety of hair and eye colors.

I do not have much knowledge of Croatia but the greater percentage of people seem to be Slavic and Eastern Mediterranean types, not Alpine Celtic or Atlantic Celtic.
 
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celts inhabitated all of the blakans that was thouands of years ago. celts were also in spain and theres even greater influence or connection look at R1b values and yet the so called celtic type is rare there. Croatia is in the balkans it is not a central european country as you try and make it seem. the only south slavs who have any notable pigemnt difference is slovenians who are actually central european and in the north.
E,J etc.. have no effect on phenotype no haplogroup does for that matter. how come you see R1b in cameroon and in Scandinavia yet the two populations look completly different??
Accorind to you eh and who exactly are you?? show me one source that supports what you are saying in regards to subraces.


Serbs are darker because they're not protected by the dinaric mountains from southern invaders, and there's a clear passage through morava, danube rivers. This is why, also, Hercegovina has a high frequency of I2a2 - which is protection from invasion by geographic barriers. This is described in any evolutionary text, and you should know this if you know anything about evolution.

Why does it matter for information flow, when, we know the only dna that won't recombine is Y and mt - so, from this we can infer that certain populations will be more favorable to each other since they share information that is unadulterated, and - in the purpose of preserving it - they will acclimate their will to signify their common hegemony.

If we can infer from this an assumption - that someone with R1b in Scandinavia may be more favorable to a R1b in Cameroon rather than someone from another Y-haplogroup - even without his knowledge of it. Will it happen? I don't know. But is the mechanism a possible? I would like you to attempt to refute it.
 
Actually the R1b of Cameroon has very little to do with the R1b found in Europe. They are from two different branches. The Euroepan branch is M269.
 
celts inhabitated all of the blakans that was thouands of years ago
It is false.

Most southern celts in Balkan were Scordics, who by Herodotus are not celts but a mixing of Celts and Illyrians or thracians and lived in North Serbia.

And another southern celt tribe was Taurisci in today Slovenia, who also were mixed with native illyrians.

In other balkan countries Celts invaded but did'nt settle.
 
There are plenty of Atlantic Celtic phenotypes in Spain / Iberia. Forget the idiotic media stereotypes of Spaniards, they have little to do with reality. Actually, a great many of the ancient Celts were dark-haired and dark-eyed. Once again, forget the stereotype. The population of Spain (and Portugal), particularly the central, west and north, is majority Paleo-Atlantid and Nordid-Atlantid in appearance. Atlantic facial structures are very much dominant, with a variety of hair and eye colors.

I do not have much knowledge of Croatia but the majority of people seem to be Slavic and Eastern Mediterranean types, not Alpine Celtic or Atlantic Celtic.
I didn't say majority of Croats have Keltic Nordic :unsure:phenotypes,but representative number has,a noticeable minority.
Eastern Mediterranean is rare in Croatia.
And what do you mean by 'Slavic'??
Original Slavs were Nordic,very dolicephalic people,like ancient Germanics were also after all,if i'm not mistaken.
Recent research on Croats from Zagreb shows they are mostly dolicephalic,thus preserving the original Slavic condition well.
Ex famous football player Robert Prosinecki,native of Zagreb,is a good example of the original Nordic continuity i would say:
http://www.uvijekvjerni.com/media/cache/filemanager/2008/05/14/prosinecki_300x330.jpg
http://www.monitor.hr/resources/generated/articles/0024883.jpg
 
celts inhabitated all of the blakans that was thouands of years ago. celts were also in spain and theres even greater influence or connection look at R1b values and yet the so called celtic type is rare there. Croatia is in the balkans it is not a central european country as you try and make it seem. the only south slavs who have any notable pigemnt difference is slovenians who are actually central european and in the north.

E,J etc.. have no effect on phenotype no haplogroup does for that matter. how come you see R1b in cameroon and in Scandinavia yet the two populations look completly different??

Accorind to you eh and who exactly are you?? show me one source that supports what you are saying in regards to subraces.
Croatia is located in Central Europe,Mediterranean and the Balkans,and wishes of some spoiled teenager won't change that.
Although culturally Croatia has almost nothing to do with the Balkans,even that guy in the 'Football factories' show said how Belgrade gives an 'Eastern' vibe compared to Zagreb.You can thank that to Turks.

Serbs are clearly darker than Croats or Slovenes,you can notice that straight away,and cocerning Croatian R1b,the problem is that there are pockets where R1b is non-existent(main Dinaric zone)while elsewhere it's about 20% on average.
 
Croatia is located in Central Europe,Mediterranean and the Balkans,and wishes of some spoiled teenager won't change that.
Although culturally Croatia has almost nothing to do with the Balkans,even that guy in the 'Football factories' show said how Belgrade gives an 'Eastern' vibe compared to Zagreb.You can thank that to Turks.

Serbs are clearly darker than Croats or Slovenes,you can notice that straight away,and cocerning Croatian R1b,the problem is that there are pockets where R1b is non-existent(main Dinaric zone)while elsewhere it's about 20% on average.

they are not look at pics of your football, waterpolo, most sports teams of croatia and see what the dominant hair color is its blcak and brown very few other colors. Culturally croats do hve a lot to do with the balkans you might be closer to the west like western europe due to your 700 occupation by the austrians. eastern is not as in turk but more like eastern europe. show me a mass photo where the majority of croats have blond, red or any light hair colors
 

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