Macedonians

This is how the insult started.
Garrick (Arvanite Greek with Serbian flag) started to claim something that was 100% wrong. I was slavo macedonian and iapetoc macedonian? When both are haplogroup G? Proof 0%.
Serbians and macedonians are not same and never will be, get that in your brain.
You maybe thought you could get away from your hidden agenda, but nobody will get away that easy.
You (Garrick) havent posted anything relevant anywhere and you continue with posting same spam about your love for albanians and greeks all the time, soon it will be a report to moderator to exclude you of this forum.

DejaVu
What you are looking for support for a moderator to me the switch is completely pointless.

You do not understand what I say because you do not want to hear.

But I hope you will now understand.


This is the territory of ancient Macedonia and the present boundaries of the state.

LocationMacedonia-MAC-3-z.png


As you can see ancient Macedonia has covered not much of today's Macedonia FYROM.

Do you know whose population was north of the border Ancient Macedonia?

Largely, they were Illyrians the ancestors of today's Albanians.

And there is evidence for it, if you want it can be set, but let it do some of the Albanians.


Iapetoc knows it and he set up this map, right and limiting the territory without going into Illyrian territory.

Are you aware that the Albanians of Macedonia FYROM territory of today's often called Ilirida.

And are you aware that this is not by accident.

What do you have of it not letting you hear a second opinion than yours on the forum.

Only the Communists did it.

See, you talked to me a lot of bad and I do not mind.

I this write here on the forum I say people in Macedonia in the eye.

And many from them think about these words.

Think, just north of this border the Illyrians lived and there is no way to you prove the opposite when it can be found in encyclopedias and history books as you like.

Do you want to be posted?

The problem is because you not treat any facts, others speak for you to run a propaganda, but when someone writes something that is not you at will, then complain and wish that he be barred from speaking.
 
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HERODOTUS

CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. As Borza had written, "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.



Herodotus - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

Thucydides - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides

Eugene Borza - Professor emeritus of ancient history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza
 
Homer lived 300 years before alexander FYI, helenization didn't reach them yet.

FYROM are yugoslavs with no identity. 30% are albanian and the rest are bulgarians and serbians who claim to be macedonians.

FACT

They want to be known as macedonians but comon sence won't let them, too bad ;)
 
These are the boundaries of ancient Macedonia and the northwest is Illyrian territories (Illyrian are ancestors of Albanians).


map_thesis.jpg
 
I want all facts about ancient Macedonia start to write now - everything and link source. Not a single word about FYRO MACEDONIA.

START NOW OR BE FOREVER SPAMMERS. SHOW YOUR SKILLS.
 
DejaVU

one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north
First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra
from the city of Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north to Phylakes and Balla (Velventos-Near Servia and Katalonia Ballena) Servia in Proto-Makedonian means
Velventos
Phylakes means Tower of Guardians
Balla and its settlements
ballonEllenes
ballonista
Ballena
Druanista
Druassa
the nearby Pieri-Thracian city before Makedonian until today have the name Kitros according Greek-Tyrrshenian
Cotys -Cotyr means tough in Tyrrshenian

Later they went north

west of Phylacaes went from west Olymp the Lokroi tribe (Elimiotans) build Aiani
Aeolians lokroi (inland tribe from central Greece to Thessaly to Makedonia, cousins of Epirotans)
Lokri And Argeiad Makedonians unite and tooksome Vrygian lands while the Illyrians took their lands above Prespes lakes (a Greco thracian tribe)
the remains of Vrygian the Argeiads sons of Hercules the Lokroi sons of Makednos the Boettiaeans
According to Strabo, Bottiaeans were Cretan immigrants from Iapygia
make the Makedonian Kingom
the name Makedonia original belongs to Lokroi West Makedonia and the name Argeads to Central Makedoniaand build Capital Aiges and later Pella
Lokroi conquer all lands until Prespes,
and Argeiades all the south Greek colonies in sea starting from Pydna (big port)
Karamos after the conquer of Pydna from Euboeans Became king of a oligarchy system-alliance
like Mycenae of a Big Kings and a council of kings
(like Agamemnon Big king and Menelaus, Nestror, Odysseas small kings)
slowly that united kingdom became strong and pushed Thrasians Bithyni Maedi to East and assimilate the Greco-Thrasian Mygdonians
later wars among Makedonians and Dardani and Makedonians and Paioni make new alliances and a complex system
for example Illyrians of Ohrid above Prespes lakes join Makedonian Kingdom (Arideans)council against Dardani (illyrothrasian) as also Paionians against Odrysse-Thracians
But Paionians had also another Royal House although they where Makedonian best alliance and high council members except Almopeans
Paionian lands where west from Aksos-Aksios river (Vardar) until Mt Haimos
the big union among Greeks , Illyrians and thracians was done under king Amyntas,
but Makedonians were so strong that even before Amyntas build colonies inside Thracian lands
like odomantikes sintikes bisalti, Phillip manage easily to conquer that lands and unite them and then started the big campaign to unite Greeks
the rest is known

Later when Romans came Paionians were weak and mostly assimilated by Makedonians and became the MAKEDONIA SECUNDA and makedonia became Makedonia PRIMERA
from that starts the bullshit of today
and continues with the stupidity of Byzantines to name Makedonia today Bulgaria, Thessalinique the Makedonia Primera, and Bulgaria today Fyrom and Serbia and Dardania

when Slavic nations came they pass Donau and make their own counsils and Kingdoms
the most known the Serbs own the road from Thessaloniki to Donau via rivers, the aqua system,
Serbs brought another air of indepence as also Balkars later, and another lingua that unite with ancient thracian (probably IE similarity) and give another accent than Roman or Greek similar to ancient Thracian and create the South-Slavic languages
which are a mix of ancient North-Thracian and Odrysse-Thracian
Cyrril and Method etc the rest is known, Dusan Simeon Samuel Slavic Kings Families
orthodoxia, ottomans, Slavonizations and later Islamizations and at west Unia and later Catholicism

the history remains if you see Armani (Aromani) Roman speaking people

First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra


PieriaPieresExpulsionMap.jpg




WHAT IS THAT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians, whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon into Dardania and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace.

Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek and Paul Kretschmer, who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family, and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev, who claims affinities with Thracian.

Stoboi (nowadays Gradsko), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


WHAT IS THIS????????????????

Paeonians.png


Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

Macedonia Secunda NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

WHO IS THIS???????

The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8, 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


Paeonian Kings


In the Iliad, Asteropaios (Greek: Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin: Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes. Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon, who was the son of the river god Axios and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1]

The name Asteropaios exist Still in Greek Makedonian names specially among Armani people

Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus, a leader of the Paeonians in the Trojan War. He came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus: dressed in Achilles' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians, was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II, previous king of Macedon. He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians and Taulantians, when the Autariatae were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.
[1]Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, i. 5

Also
When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

Diodorus Siculus


kausia or Beret (Francais)

Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg


Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and the Indo-Greeks in northwestern India. A modern descendant may be the pakul from the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian for the homeland, later called Thrace, which the Phrygians had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC as three : The Saka Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae, who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians; and Yauna Takabara or Ionians with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones, renowned for wearing the sun hat, as Alexander I of Macedon did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians whom Herodotus makes so much of in his narrative


Any similarity of Skydra or Skodra ???????

or now do you understand that
Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

whatch the names
cotys
kotys

watch the Sinopean cities
In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea coast established by the ancient Greek Aegean city of Miletos. The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman military center and headquarters.

Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian[1]king, son of Leon of Paionia.

Dropion or Driopas or Δριοψ was a paeonian king that took place in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
Lykeias means wolf -man
Aytoleon means kings of lions
Aristos means perfect
Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek (achaic aga or achas)
Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
Pigres means fists
Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
kotys Greek kothour-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
(endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more


and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS
the huns were named Balkar
but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
the Vulks of Hephaisto
probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferruginous lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

Although Balkan is a Turkish word

DejaVu
watch the names
George Gr Γεωργιος Georgios
Serbian Georgevic Greek Georgeadis vic=v+i+t+s -> (v+t=d) +i+s ->dis Nominative case
Bulg Georgiev Greek Georgiou v->ou or u possesive case
Female Georgieva Greek Georgiena v->n Female

Tyrrshenian language (sub-saharan :grin:)
mother language of many
 
Last edited:
DejaVU

one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north
from the cityof Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north

PieriaPieresExpulsionMap.jpg




WHAT IS THAT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians, whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon into Dardania and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace.

Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek and Paul Kretschmer, who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family, and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev, who claims affinities with Thracian.

Stoboi (nowadays Gradsko), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


WHAT IS THIS????????????????

Paeonians.png


Centuries later under Diocletian, Paeonia and Pelagonia formed a province called Macedonia Secunda or Macedonia Salutaris, belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

Macedonia Secunda NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

WHO IS THIS???????

The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8, 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6,2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


Paeonian Kings

In the Iliad, Asteropaios (Greek: Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin: Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes. Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon, who was the son of the river god Axios and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1]

The name Asteropaios is Still in Greek Makedonian names of Armani people

Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus, a leader of the Paeonians in the Trojan War. He came from the city of Amydon. Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad, in the Trojan Catalogue, Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus: dressed in Achilles' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians, was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II, previous king of Macedon. He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians and Taulantians, when the Autariatae were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.[1]



  1. Arrian, Anabasis Alexandri, i. 5
When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

Diodorus Siculus


kausia or Beret (Francais)

Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg


Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom and the Indo-Greeks in northwestern India. A modern descendant may be the pakul from the mountains of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian for the homeland, later called Thrace, which the Phrygians had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC as three : The Saka Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae, who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians; and Yauna Takabara or Ionians with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones, renowned for wearing the sun hat, as Alexander I of Macedon did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians whom Herodotus makes so much of in his narrative


Any similarity of Skydra skodra ???????

or now do you understand that
Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

whatch the names
cotys
kotys

watch the Sinopean cities
In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea coast established by the ancient Greek Aegean city of Miletos. The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman military center and headquarters.

Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian[1]king, son of Leon of Paionia.

Dropion or Driopas was a paeonian king that took p[lace in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
Lykeias means wolf -man
Aytoleon means kings of lions
Aristos means perfect
Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek
Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
Pigres means fists
Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
kotys Greek kothor-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
(endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more

and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
the huns were named Balkar
but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
the Vulks of Hephaistos
probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferrus lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

Iapetoc
Northwest of the boundaries of ancient (Doric) Macedonia were the Illyrians (Albanians ancestors).

But I think that is near the northeast must have been some I2a population.

What do you think whether I2a have been Paeonians or other tribes and who?
 
watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png
Paeonians.png

now HOW YES NO
do you understand????

Can Paeonians be same people as Pannoni(ans)? e.g. I2a2 proto-south Slavs

Because Pannoni did live in most of Illyria in time of Strabo...
read what Strabo says about Illyria....

it seems that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians in their war against Celtic Boii
and that it was ressetled by Pannonians...

I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
...
People formerly very powerful are extinct, or were reduced to the lowest condition, as the Boii and Scordisci among the Galatæ; the Autariatæ, Ardiæi, and Dardanii, among the Illyrians; and the Triballi among the Thracians. They first declined in consequence of disputes amongst themselves, but were finally prostrated by wars with the Macedonians and Romans.
.....
. The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter=5&highlight=

area of Illyria for Strabo stretches to Alps and Danube..its sea cosat is from Rhizonic bay (bay of Kotor in northwest Montenegro) to recess of Adriatic sea - this is area of ex-Yugoslavia.... and has nothing to do with Albania...

now he claims that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, it was also depopulated by wars with Macedonians and Romans... and that in those wars people like Boii, Scordisci, Triballi, Dardani has disappeared or almost disappeared..... but Pannoni are there, and living in most of Illyria (or according to his description roughly ex-Yugoslavia)...


LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA
WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a
do you read my posts?
there is no need for calculations as there was YDNA research that did separate ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians....

http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1.2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


ethnic Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)

same as Serbia and almost Bosnia
same basic ingredient - I2a2
which as I indicated on many places does correlate with location and directions of spread of early Slavs
(e.g. look at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=364837&postcount=78 )

early Slavs are according to Jordanes origin from populous race of Veneti that is now scattered among many tribes chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes...


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language
The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek
the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
(Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)
Tyhrsenian /Taurisci/Thracian/Etruscan/Theresh(sea peoples)... can those be about tribal names and peoples of same origin? also Theresh sea peoples are close relatives to Sherdana sea peoples whose name is known to be origin of name of Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt...

now, look at Taurus on map of world known to Hebrews...

402px-Noahsworld_map.png


Etruscans have moved from Lydia (or its close neighburhood) to Italy...

The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

this event we can even date as we know that in 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

btw. same division of nation in two parts with one part moving to live far away, we have in much more recent times, story of settlement of Serbs on Balkan, as recorded in work of Byzantine emperor...

Etruscans also called themselves Raseni

In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs


Crete spain italy the bull is Toro or tavro or tauro
Athens is BOLOS Thessaly Makedonia is BOLinthros
Bulgarian Fyrom is BOL
Serbian Croatian HUngarian is BIK
but the calf is
Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian Vodali VIDALI (itali Vitalli)
Aromanian-armani, albanian is Damali Demi
Athens Central-West Makedonia Moschos Mouskar
Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine Telec

this can be related to tribal name of Taurisci...

by checking vocabulary of modern european people amongst the words for bull we find:
portugese - boi (as in Boii)
danish - tyr (as in Tyrshenians)
finish - roska (as in russians)



this bull identification may have to do with people from that stock e.g. Sherdana carrying horns on their helmets.... same custom may be origin of name for calling some people "ant people" or Eneti/Veneti...

in that sense word "bik" may be related to Viking
which indeed shows that language spoken by south Slavs origins from more northern areas, that is from areas of Viking influence (I don't say they were Vikings, but that horns issue may be origin of word "bik")...

and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
the huns were named Balkar

yes, this correlates with some ideas that I had about origin of Serb tribal name...

Sebar - was in medieval period in Serbia word used for caste of agricultural people...
Srp/serp - is slavic word meaning "sickle"...sickle was primary tool and symbol of agricultural people..... even 4 'S' on Serbian coat of arms are often called "sickles".....

btw. medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.
Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

and again spread along Danube is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians are likely proto-Serbs as Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

In fact, I do wonder about word Seres in Greek history records.... as Serians of north west China who produce silk are also called Seres... Seres live in arc from India to China... and this is where we find Pasthun Sarbans today and some haplogroup I that separates them from surrounding tribes that do not have haplogroup I.... Serians of Red sea are about Sabeans/Sheba known for their legendary queen of Sheba who was also called Makeda in south part of her country... hence name Macedonians for some Serian/proto-Serb related people living south from core od Serians...

in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

Seres dwell upon mount Athos....


do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
early Slavs were oak worshipers...
Druid is not Greek word...druid is word that has PIE origin and literally means persons able to "see in tree"
in slavic, corresponding words are: drvo (tree) + vid (vision)
this is related to old Slavic religion where

A fairly typical cosmological concept among speakers of Indo-European languages, that of the World Tree, is also present in Slavic mythology. It is either an oak tree, or some sort of pine tree. The mythological symbol of the World Tree was a very strong one, and survived throughout the Slavic folklore for many centuries after Christianisation. Three levels of the universe were located on the tree. Its crown represented the sky, the realm of heavenly deities and celestial bodies, whilst the trunk was the realm of mortals. They were sometimes combined together in opposition to the roots of the tree, which represented the underworld, the realm of the dead.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology

According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav, Yav being the material world, Nav the immaterial, and Prav being the laws that govern them. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the World Tree. Slavs imagined that all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion
 
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and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS

who is goddess Sirris?
all I could find is
The Mesopotamian goddess Siris was the patron of beer who is conceived of as a demon, which is not necessarily evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siris_(goddess)

and lot of links related to Isis...

is Siris same goddess as Isis?
that would make sense

this is representation of Isis
Egypt.IsisHorus.01.png


and this is Sherdana sea peoples, the one whose name is known to be origin of name Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt....

seapeoples14.jpg


now horns and circle between horns that Sherdana have on helmets can be same symbol as the one that Isis is wearing...

btw.
Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis

Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
...
Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

look at symbols depicted in this representation of Serapis
Serapis.JPG


this motive of crescent/halfmoon and star is repeated is early coat of arms in Croats, Bulgarians, Illyrians, kingdom of Yugoslavia...

500px-Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria_%28by_Vincenco_Coronelli%29.svg.png

425px-Coat_of_arms_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia.svg.png


moon itself is symbol of Isis
 
now, back to link between Serapis and Taurisci/Theresh/Etruscan/Thracians....

Serapis is invented god... he is merge of Osiris and Apis
Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis)

God Apis is about bull worship, which is link to Taurisci...
In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)

From the earliest times, the bull was lunar in Mesopotamia (its horns representing the crescent moon).[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

The Bull was a central theme in the Minoan civilization, with bull heads and bull horns used as symbols in the Knossos palace. Minoan frescos and ceramics depict the bull-leaping ritual in which participants of both sexes vaulted over bulls by grasping their horns. See also "Minotaur and The Bull of Crete" (below) for a later incarnation to the Minoan Bull.
...
For the Greeks, the bull was strongly linked to the Bull of Crete: Theseus of Athens had to capture the ancient sacred bull of Marathon (the "Marathonian bull") before he faced the Bull-man, the Minotaur (Greek for "Bull of Minos"), whom the Greeks imagined as a man with the head of a bull at the center of the labyrinth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

Rethymnon on Crete has 22.7% of haplogroup I which is well above Greece standards (comparable to Agrinion and Lemna and bellow only of the level in Serrai / Serres (36%))

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html
 
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now, I find very peculiar high haplogroup I in Agrinion (23.8%)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

so I wondered who are these people

According to mythology, it was built by king Agrios, son of Portheus[2] and a great grandson of Aetolos. It was destroyed by Cassander in 314 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion

according to years, Cassander is Alexander the Great?
anyway, origin is from Aetolus

Aetolus (Greek: Αἰτωλός) was, in Greek mythology, a son of Endymion, grandson of Deucalion, and the nymph Neïs, or Iphianassa.[1][2] According to Pausanias, his mother was called Asterodia, Chromia, or Hyperippe.[3] He was married to Pronoe, by whom he had two sons, Pleuron and Calydon. His brothers were Paeon, Epeius, and others.[4][5][6] His father compelled him and his two brothers Paeon and Epeius to decide by a contest at Olympia as to which of them was to succeed him in his kingdom of Elis. Epeius gained the victory, and occupied the throne after his father, and on his demise he was succeeded by Aetolus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus_(son_of_Endymion)

Paeon (Ancient Greek: Παίων, gen.: Παίονος) in Greek mythology was a son of Endymion, king of Elis, and brother of Epeius, Aetolus, and Eurycyda; from whom the district of Paeonia, on the Axius river in Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_(son_of_Endymion)

so, these people are related to Paeonians (and perhaps also to Pannonians?)


In Greek mythology, Selene (Greek Σελήνη [selɛ́ːnɛː] 'moon'; Doric Σελάνα; Aeolic Σελάννα) was an archaic lunar deity and the daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia.[1] In Roman mythology, the moon goddess is called Luna, Latin for "moon".
...
Apollonius of Rhodes (4.57ff) refers to Selene, "daughter of Titan", who "madly" loved a mortal, the handsome hunter or shepherd—or, in the version Pausanias knew, a king— of Elis, named Endymion, from Asia Minor. In other Greek references to the myth, he was so handsome that Selene asked Zeus to grant him eternal sleep so that he would stay forever young and thus would never leave her: her asking permission of Zeus reveals itself as an Olympian transformation of an older myth: Cicero (Tusculanae Disputationes) recognized that the moon goddess had acted autonomously. Alternatively, Endymion made the decision to live forever in sleep. Every night, Selene slipped down behind Mount Latmus near Miletus to visit him.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene

hm, moon goddess pops up again....

but I am not convinced that Agrinion haplogroup I is related to Aetolos...

The peoples known as the Curetes and the Leleges originally inhabited the country, but at an early period Greeks from Elis, led by the mythical eponym Aetolus, set up colonies. Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentions that Curetes was the old name of the Aetolians and Leleges the old name of the Locrians.[1] The Aetolians took part in the Trojan War, under their king Thoas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolia

Homer, in the Iliad, mentions the Curetes (Ancient Greek: Κουρῆτες) as a legendary people who took part in the quarrel over the Calydonian Boar.[1] Strabo mentioned that the Curetes were assigned multiple identities and places of origin (i.e. either Acarnanians, Aetolians, from Crete, or from Euboea). However, he clarified the identity of the Curetes and regarded them solely as Aetolians.[2] Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentioned the Curetes as the old name of the Aetolians.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curetes_(tribe)

The Korybantes (Ancient Greek: Κορύβαντες) were the crested dancers who worshipped the Phrygian goddess Cybele with drumming and dancing. They are also called the Kurbantes in Phrygia, and Corybants in an older English transcription. The Kuretes were the nine dancers who venerate Rhea, the Cretan counterpart of Cybele, Mother of the Gods. A fragment from Strabo, book vii,[1] gives a sense of the roughly analogous character of these male confraternities, and the confusion rampant among those not initiated:
Many assert that the gods worshipped in Samothrace as well as the Kurbantes and the Korybantes and in like manner the Kouretes and the Idaean Daktyls are the same as the Kabeiroi, but as to the Kabeiroi they are unable to tell who they are"
...
Kouretes also presided over the infancy of Dionysus, another god who was born as a babe, and of Zagreus, a Cretan child of Zeus, or child-doublet of Zeus. The wild ecstasy of their cult can be compared to the female Maenads who followed Dionysus.
...
There were several "tribes" of Korybantes, including the Cabeiri, the Korybantes Euboioi, the Korybantes Samothrakioi. Hoplodamos and his Gigantes were counted among Korybantes, and Titan Anytos was considered a Kourete.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuretes

Kuretes might be proto-Croat related...
 
slowly

Garrick you are wright Druid is a IE word so it can be international

but Driopas = Dru + ope Δρυ+οπη οπη = hole

about I2a

As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
but many times i come back

The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,


yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
North-west the Illyro-Thracians
North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

the Greeks at Ottoman occupation
said that North of Monaster (Bitola) was foreign land of Arnaut (Muslim Albanians)
the Bardar river around Skopje and north was the Serbia also in areas of Florina (Lerin)
were serbo-slavic
and the lands around Mt Borras (Kayimak Tsalan) south of bardar river until Strymon were the Bugari people
Bugari cause they were not clear Bulgarians as in Veliko Ternovo,

also exists the Armani people who are a culture of Roman occupation.
The Armani where pushed by Italians in WW2 to make kingdoms like the Koutsouk Vallach,
a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire

How Yes No
at the times I speak
No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food

Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe

when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
now about
Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes

to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

for Example
Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni

the worship of Iapetus
Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
(proto-Tyrrshennian)
the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
But arcadians also had a god Pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)

I 'm not sure but at the times i speak after 700 BC among pannoni and Paeoni were many tribes especially Tribaldi, so for me the connection at that times is only in Genetical Y-dna if Pannoni are I2a and not Cultural or Ethnical,
as I mentined before the I2a in some areas I dont know if it is Dominal or a sum of transfered populations

about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?


about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
Besides Homers Γραισοι Γ is 3rd as C so Craisoi -> ai=a+e Craesoi ss == tt Craetoi = Cretans
Γραισοι ->Craesoi -> Creek - Greek
that is why today in Greece is another part the Greece (region) and the nation and country is Hellas
by the above I don't claim That Thracians were Greeks but an analysis of Greco-Aryan

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
also Persians went East to India
and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2

the west branch Greeks (Thracians) appears before 4000 in cyclades having ships
worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)

Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
(lemnean staele)


Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat
Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,
Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)
also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
also Dionysos - Christ etc
so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
and Dionysus worship have common origin

about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
also Eleysina mysteries
also Byzantine city symbol

ARXAIO_NOMISMA_VIZANTIOY.jpg



now about the bull

I mentioned that cause
Bolos
Bol
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos

Although the possibility of Telec is similar to sacrifice makes the word inner Fixed (by the speakers)
example bull fight in spain
tayrokathapsia in crete etc
A ceremony that follows the killing of the bull
in Greek is teleti and the meat telesforo
a simmilar thracian-phrygian word probably name the meat of the bull teles
you can realize that by reading Paul to Corinthians about sacrificed meat
inner fixed is if telec comes from another word of the lingua
and is different from same speaking people
imported is if the word is from another lingua
 
Last edited:
Dienekes said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.

I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.


Now Understanding that The kurgan Hypothsis proves to be a myth,
The R1a did not brought IE language to Greece
Although the last possibiliy according Kurgan Hypothesis is that Greeks took Language from Hettits
 
slowly
As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
but many times i come back

The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,
According to Russian primary chronicle that I have quoted in previous post, Slavs did live along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary (Romania is not mentioned) and also were Noricans...
Noricans would be Veneti related people, probably later known as Vindelici and maybe some other tribes...
are there any clues for possible kinship between Thracians and Pannoni?

yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
North-west the Illyro-Thracians
North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
much of I2a2 did come with Slavs
but it could have been there as well...
thing that R1a is equally spread in Albanians from Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians and Serbs, and much less in Montenegro...is clear indicator that no R1a came with Slavs.... higher R1a in Greek Macedonia than in neighbouring Slavic lands is indicator that R1a is due to ancient Macedonioans
besides hotspot of R1a in south Balkan has clear shape of ancient Macedonia

R1A_map.jpg


cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

I think that all early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 and there were Slav tribes settling in Macedonia and Greece prior to expansion ofSerbs...



a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire
Vlachs on Balkan origin from different people... they are not same people ethnically, just their language is the same.... their origin is from settled Roman people (which are often romanized people from other parts of Roman empire) and local romanized people...Vlachs in Greece and Vlachs in Romania do not have common origin....


How Yes No
at the times I speak
No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food
it does sound alike...

Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe
Tribali are Thracians, right?


when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
now about
Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
through...Greek Illyria is Albania
Roman province of Illyria does not have much to do with Albania or Illyrians...
somehow Romans made confusion (probably deliberatelly) by calling everything the wrong name... (e.g. their Macedonia was centered north of real one, their Illyria was noth of real one, their Rhaetia included Vindelici...)...perhaps that was special tactics to assimilate people more easily....


Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes
to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

for Example
Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni
culture and haplogroup are not necesserily a match... as split in haplogroups happened much much earlier than split of PIE culture...

t
he worship of Iapetus
Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
(proto-Tyrrshennian)
the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
you tend to see J2b everywhere, but in exactly the region of Japoodes is in Maciamo's map big hole of J2
so if there is genetic connection between two, it may mean that Arcadians might not have been J2b but something else...

the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
But arcadians also had a god Pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_(god)
maybe Arcadians were I2a2? :)


about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?
oops, sorry....I was talking of population of FYRM, so I said ethnic Albanians and ethnic Macedonians, I used ethnic to emphasize that the samples being divided by origin... I did not mean to infer that Greek Macedonians are not ethnic Macedonians...

about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian
I do not understand this...

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
I think indoeuropean might have came to existance around Black sea (maybe also in Black sea area before disaster you mention)...most of Iranians and Indians got PIE from R1a invaders (e.g. Scythians...) who settled there in big numbers...

The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
I do not think Greeks were Thracians...
that makes no sense as ancient Greek sources never mention such a possibility...
besides language of Thrachians is known to be satem variant of IE, while Greek is centum.... Greeks and Thracians are completely unrelated... only reason you relate them is that big chunk of what is now north Greece was part of Thracian lands... of course there were Greek colonies on sea coast, but that is not Thrace

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
also Persians went East to India
and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
actually, I think J2 were historical Aryans (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
haplogroup I branched of from IJ in nearby Persia


the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2
that makes sense to me...
but their settlements were centered differently than now... there is bulk of evidence that R1b settled west Europe from Asia (via Caucasus and Asia minor) much after ice age.... R1a might have been trapped in Balkan refuge...
as according to Klyosov it is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia than in all other areas of the world together....

worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)
Phoenicans and Etruscans are related?
are you sure? can you check that claim?

Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
(lemnean staele)
who are exactly Sappeans Thracians?

Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat

Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,

Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)

also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
also Dionysos - Christ etc
so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
and Dionysus worship have common origin

about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
also Eleysina mysteries
also Byzantine city symbol
spread of same religions and symbols tells us about how cultures were related... which may indicate common origin but not necessarily does...


meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos
yes, but that is clear...
word "bik" came with Slavic settlement

what I responded with is attempt to see who were Taurisci (as Taurus = bull) and why.... to me it is logical that people who have horns on their helments are by their neighbours callled bulls or if the horns are more like insect antenas
than ants... in that sense word "bik" may be related to horn helmets of Vikings...

I believe that mythology stories very often reflect origin of people...

So, I find it curious that in Asia minor there was a myth of two bulls (which I translate with Taurisci people) called Seri and Hurri (day and night) who carried weather God....
we know that both Hurrians and Serians are mentioned as historic nations... and I do map Serians mentioned by Seneca to proto-Serbs and I know that some Croat people think that Hurrians were proto-Croats....
regarding wheather God... Greek Gods of winds Anemnoi are in latin language Venetoi... which is in fact tribal name of Veneti...
according to Jordanes early Slavs are part of populous race of Veneti...

among Anemnoi we have west wind Zephyros, and his son Carpus, which I did map to Serbs and Croats.... Zephyros is born in caves of Thrace...

btw. regarding possible link between Tracians and proto-Slavs
I do emphasize populous race.... Jordanes says early Slavs come from populous race of Veneti...
and somewhat before for ancient Greeks most populous race in area were Thracians...
extremely populous races do npot disappear without trace...they may change tribal names though...
Thracians spoke satem variant of IE, so you can't look for their offspring in Greeks, Italians, west Europe... only related languages are Slavic and Baltic languages and maybe even Albanian...but from most populous race, many people must origin...so I opt for Slavs.. and I do relate early Slavs with I2a2, same as I relate Veneti with it....
besides medieval Russian primary chronicle tells us that Slavs lived in Bulgaria and Hungary and in Noricum... but were pushed north with expand of Vlachs (that is Romans)
 
How Yes No


your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri

if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were Isotones and almost could be dialects

Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

what's the relation between Phrygians and Thracians?
Phrygians origin from Bryges, not from Thracians...
Bryges lived in central Albania and west most FYR Macedonia and not in thrace

Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png


I thnk Bryges might have been R1b.... btw.I also think Frisians and name places such as Brugge might be reflections of same tribal name... and I think that they did also settle Paphlagonia that was emptied earlier when Pahplagonia Eneti were forced to move out... Eneti moved first to Thrace .... and a branch of them ended on Adriatic coast... and since Slavs are race of Veneti and do not have much R1b, I think that R1b spread to Paphlagonia with Bryges and perhaps also with later Celtic invasions...

300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png


Haplogroup_R1b.gif


if language of Bryges was Greek alike, it just means that central Albania and westmost FYR Macedonia did speak Greek at time, which is not difficult to imagine...

and btw. link that you gave does not say that Phrygian was dialect of Greek, but that Plato did recognize some words... which is probably about PIE words plus some additional shared vocabulary due to living in proximity... text also indicates that it is considered to be closely related to Greek...now when you say considered, that's not a proof, but a theory... my guess is that it was Celtic language that was heavily influenced by Greek due to living in proximity of Greece during very long period...
 
1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats

Seri and Huri
are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
maistros comes from NW dinaric
Ourios means Behind the direction
Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

so huri and seri are not nations

about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
as also
THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian

that approach has to do with I and J
I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language

I gave you similarity of Crete and Latium

I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
Phrygians, and many other Tribes Before New Alphabet
In Crete we have a system that is even Before Phoenician
later discoveries in tooth of Hippopotamus shows the most Ancient calendar,
we know that Crete was after Cyclades which is one the most Ancient in the world 4000 BC
we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
as also Athenes as also north Thessaly

The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
language from 1 origin to different nations
besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian

the Thracians of the balcans were the last tribal system
even odrysse create a system more complex as a state



watch
In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis, Greco-Aryan is also known as "Late PIE", or "Late Indo-European" (LIE) suggesting that Greco-Aryan forms a dialect group which corresponds to the latest stage of linguistic unity in the Indo-European homeland in the early part of the 3rd millennium BC. By 2500 BC, Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had separated, moving westward and eastward from the Pontic Steppe, respectively.[5]


now watch that
More accurate archaeology has revealed the broad outlines of a farming and seafaring culture that had immigrated from Asia Minor ca 5000 BCE. Early Cycladic culture evolved in three phases, between ca 3300 - 2000 BCE, when it was increasingly swamped in the rising influence of Minoan Crete. The culture of mainland Greece contemporary with Cycladic culture is termed Helladic.

meaning that 5-10-15 % or R Ydna could not change the speech of minoan etc
and if that happened a big % would have stay

Trojan Linear A scripts
Linear A is one of two scripts used in ancient Crete
Vladimir I. Georgiev published his Le déchiffrement des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A in 1957 stating that Linear A contains Greek linguistic elements.[3] In 1963, he published an article, "Les deux langues des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A", suggesting that the language of the Hagia Triada tablets was Greek, but that the rest of the Linear A corpus was in Hittite-Luwian

Of these peoples, according to Staphylus, the Dorians occupy the part toward the east, the Cydonians the western part, the Eteo-Cretans the southern; and to these last belongs the town Prasus, where is the temple of the Dictaean Zeus; whereas the other peoples, since they were more powerful, dwelt in the plains. Now it is reasonable to suppose that the Eteo-Cretans and the Cydonians were autochthonous, and that the others were foreigners ..


Cydonians Sidonians????????


the more you know crete the more you feel Tyrrshenian and Luwan
although that is the Pre or Proto-Greek Branch of Big Family of languages



Copper pins dating to 4000 BC found in Egypt

also boats were known before 5000 BC
 
1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats
Seri and Huri
are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
maistros comes from NW dinaric
Ourios means Behind the direction
Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

so huri and seri are not nations

no, you didnot understand...
Seri and Hurri (day and night) are bulls that carry weather god...
they are not winds...

look at section about Eastern Anatolia... btw. Taurus area is southeast Anatolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

thing is Serb/Croats cluster with Romania, central Ukraine and east/west Hungary...but this cluster than clusters with Asia minor and Albanians (from paper described on http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html)...

that coupled with knowing that early Slavs are of Veneti origin (written by Jordanes) and that Veneti come from Paphlagonia (written by Herodotous) made me think that I should search for proto-Serbs and proto-Croats in Asia minor...

already in post before Seri/Hurri mapping to Serbs and Croats, I had indication of proto-Serbs having some undetermined relation with Taurus/Thrace /Teresh/Etruscan..

the reason Seri and Hurri reminded me on serbs and croats is not just links of proto-Serbs/proto-Croats to Serians/Hurrians tribal names (which is something I have already for months as I see proto-Serbs in Serians mentioned by Seneca, and I know Croats who deeply believe in Hurrians being proto-Croats), but day and night thing... like yin and yang...
Serbs and Croats are opposites in many ways, but they are one in same time..a bit as they cannot exist without each other...e.g. when I try to look clues for ancient history of Serbs I keep having Croats popping up in pair with proto-Serbs... e.g. white Serbia/white Croatia, matching coats of arms in neighbouring areas of north Ukraine, Sarban and Krevatas in Caucasus, Pasthun Sarban and Croat iranian origin teories tied to area just next to Sarbans...


Venti (Anemoi in Greece) are wind gods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

Venti may be mythological counterpart of tribe of Veneti
Zephyrus (born in caves of Thrace) on west with his son Carpus, and Eurus on east...

and you must admit that wind is related to weather...or probably thought in ancient times to be the one who brings and control the weather....
thus, clear mapping between proto-Serbs/proto-Croats representing carrying weather god with proto-Serbs and proto-Croats being related to Veneti tribes....

in fact Paphlagonia (where Veneti or nation represented in mythology with wind gods or weather gods lived) is just north of (or above it on maps) Taurus (bull)...this may have a meaning that it was thought that Paphlagonia is the key to the climate of Asia minor due to influence of Taurus mountain... and this is symbolically represented mixed with nations living there Veneti/Hurrians/Serians...
do not forget that this is about times much before Greek written history... as Veneti were kicked out from Asia minor soon after Troyan wars...

and keep in mind that Sherdana people did carry helmets with horns (thus looked as bulls do) and that it is known that Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt was named after Sherdana...
and that among sea peoples are also Teresh which may be just corruption of Taurus... and also origin of name of Etruscans (who btw. had own name Rasena identical to Serbs medieval name Rasani and in fact also to tribal name of Russians...with Thracians being likely the same name)

well, look at the island of I2a2 still existing in Kurds in area in close proximity of both Paphlagonia and Taurus

Haplogroup_I2a.gif


btw. tribal name Kurds... what does it remind you on (knowing that k and s are interchangeable in centum/satem languages)?

I think that haplogroup I separated from IJ in Persia, but than most of it went north towards Caucasus and Asia minor.... part branched imediatelly to east giving Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of north west China... part continued over Caucasus to Scandinavia and I1 developed from it....and part went to Asia minor and I2 developed from it... it is possible that when soon after Trojan war Veneti went to Thrace, Serrian/Hurrian (proto-Serbs and proto-Croats) went to Caucasus, from there to Ukraine, than to white Serbia (Bohemia and east Germany?) and white Croatia (Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) ...
worth noting is that soon after Trojan war there was 18 year old hunger that caused half of Lydians to go away (Etruscans meaning that probably Lydia was back than including Taurus)...
much later I2a2 Lydians collapsed under wave of E-V13 - this would be related to story of shepard Gyges finding dead king of Lydia and stealing his magic ring and becoming king.... which caused I2a2 Cimmerians to furiously attack his state but without success.... Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...Gyges name became name of his people - Gog or Ghegs...

about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
as also
THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian
Phrygians origin from Bryges...
Bryges were probably not Thracians...
it is suspected that they came to Balkan from north from Lusatian culture area of influence......
they did cross through Thrace on way from central Albania to Asia minor... a part of tribe stayed in Thrace, but that does not make them same in culture and language and haplogroup as other people living in Thrace...
you cannot make conclusions about Thracians based on Bryges as it is known that they settled there from central Albania, and settled central Albania after comming from north Europe...
now arrival from north Europe means they were probably not J or E dominant people... I suspect it was R1b as R1b has spread towards central Albania and also exist in Asia Minor in place of their last settlement...

Minoan Crete perhaps spoke Tyrsshenian cause there is lot of haplogroup I in Crete...


that approach has to do with I and J
I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language
at that time they probabbly all had IE language...

I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
that's not the language, that's alphabet....


we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
as also Athenes as also north Thessaly
I believe that Philistines origin from Pelast sea peoples, and that they are Pelasgues...

The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
so, if in 2000 years someone digs out this forum conversation he can conclude that english was native language of Greece in 21st century?
but if Phoenician was used it also indicates relation with southeast Asia minor population which in fact supports my thesis that Taurus/Taurisci on south east coast (from whom I think Etruscan and Teresh sea peoples origin) are also origin of Thracians....


in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
language from 1 origin to different nations
besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian
iranian is satem language as slavic...
if they were near to persian they spoke satem as is well known anyway...

as for Crete, minotaur myth makes me suspect that they were related to people who lived in Taurus area...
 
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