Albanians (OFFTOPIC Macedonians)

I will not go into detail in my reply, but I'd like to issue a few general objections:

- citing sources which try to link biblical genalogy into historical linguistics/ethnogenesis is neither a good idea nor is it scientific.

Tell me about which conclusion of the above materials, you don't agree, or is problematic for you, and I will post you the same conclusion from another book, but not from "biblical genalogy" this time and to solve this "problem" :)

- About Etruscans, I will answer you again, after we make clear the first objection
 
a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins


Albanian white qeleshe or plis (just like todays arvanites are named as greeks, in the same way, the old pelasgian culture in ancient times, they call it greek).

skullcappileosmg7.jpg


72620_149522735095504_100001133356751_236251_8071912_n.jpg


1=Odysseus (in albanian Odhisti/Udhisti... traveler)
2=Uliks
3=Odysseus
4=Hefest
5=Theti (deity of the sea and water, today in albanian Deti=the sea), runs to pull weapons of Achilles, to "divine" Hefest. All the three have the todays albanian plis/qeleshe in their head (Rome show about Iliad at Colosse-2007, the Archaeological Museum of Naples)
6=Hefest
7=Illyrian type of a plaque found in today's Croatia near Dubrovnik
8=Poseidon
9=Through the Etruscans (Pelasgians), the subsequent Roman people named "pileus libertatis" (plis of freedom), here presented in the currency printed by the Roman Brutus after Caesar's murder.
10=Antique statues in Labëri (also similar to this
:http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3040852_n.jpg)
11=Ajax & Achilles playing Draughts

* Starting from the Plis/qeleshe of ZEUS (Zojsi/Dias) up to Bardulus [(white - star Dardanian/Bardhanian Bardh(white) yll(star)], all these are symbols of freedom to Albanians, you can see this link for more: http://picasaweb.google.com/11509262...96537464102946
Here we have Zeus:
"A19 SG#0671 Bruttium, Lokroi Epizephyrioi, possibly from the time of Pyrrhus. AE 20. 300-268 BC. First part of 3rd Cent BC. Conjoined busts of the Dioskouroi right wearing PILEI - Zeus enthroned holding patera nd Sceptre, cornucopiae behind, LOKRWN. SNG Cop 1895. HN Italy 2399. Sear 671. 4.9g."
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos..._5347599_n.jpg

Here we have Pyrro whith his people with plis/qeleshe and crown from the sacred oak of Dodona


156988_149549311759513_100001133356751_236337_1949384_n.jpg


To keep cultural traditions and in proving that to whose people (culture) he belong, he is identified with the eagle and all the other symbolism (like the two horns that appear in this picture) that derive from Thot (Idris)>Deukalion (Dhulkarnejn)> Troyans> Alexander the great> and through him, to Castrioti, who besides that inherited the same culture, but he kept the figure of Pyrrhus in his sword too:
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/3...enderbeyg0.jpg


quote_icon.png
Originally Posted by Besir Bajrami
Let's proceed:
Ancient artifact from Vinca culture (or Goddess on the throne) and modern (still ancient:) albanian dress from Kosovo (part of ancient Dardania)

284282_214344465279997_100001133356751_528526_314877_n.jpg



185215_214344501946660_100001133356751_528527_486346_n.jpg



If we pay attention to the tradition, even today in albanian culture, when the girl become e women, when she get married (albanians get married only in Thursday and Sunday), she have to stay just like this, in that position (folded), like the mysterious artifact there.
Thursday is womens day. For the bride they say: "U bë Nuse Venuse" - "You become e Bride a Venus"... alb.:"Ve"- eng.:"Egg" - alb.:"Nuse" - eng.:"bride"... Venus)
Also, when in "the first night" she have to stay whith her man, tradition requires that she have to sit in the symbol of the half of Cosmic Egg (albanian white hood - "Plis" or "Qeleshe", is only a man cap), turned back, and to put in the head the another half, just like the symbol of Zeus here:

13462_110084585705986_100001133356751_66198_7642169_n.jpg



So, like the seed that came from the Cosmic Egg or the Egg of the Worlds and brought the life, and the Bride "emerges" from the Egg and bring life in that house.

In fact the entire albanian national dress represents that pelasgic religion, or symbolizes God/Almighty Creator.
Even the sleeves of the dress (Guna) that don't have to be wear but to connect behind, symbolizing comb / wings of divinity. For old religion (or better to say, from that original religion, what was copied latter from other cultures, especially from the Semitic peoples) says that when the Creator created life from the cosmic egg/egg of worlds, he was presented with comb/wings ...
This kind of theory of creation is writen somehow and in the Bible indireclty in Genesis.
Here you can see the symbolism of Comb/divine wings in albanian dress:

attachment.php



See more in page 5 in this topic about some other albanian national costumes and their symbolism:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthr...stanella/page5




So, here we have this wonderful figure from the book of Artur Cook about Zues, who have two qeleshe/plis in above and below... Plis/qeleshe symbolizes the on half of the cosmic egg, from which "egg" God created all things, created life.

Otherwise, the Illyrians have used several types of hats/plis/qeleshe (fez-hat-cap-lumpy) similar to each other.
Dardanians have used round (or half circle) qeleshe, in use today by albanians in Kosovo. Dardania latter was from Nis (Naisus) to the Bylazora (Veles), Astipi (Shtibi), Skopje (Skupi), Tetovo (Oaeneum), Gostivar (Draudakum) ...
From mountain in southern Bukovik up to the Ohrid, Gostivar, Struga, Debar and to Mavrovo, have lived Penestians whith the capital Uscana (Kicevo), and this Illyrian tribe had flat plis/qeleshe, at the time of Skanderbeg is called Dibran, because was in use of all regions of Dibra. North Albania holds also flat plis/qeleshe but is much shorter from dibra region. Southern Albania holds the round plis/qeleshe but much longer than it from Dardanians (see 10) - Laberian plis/qeleshe.
Headgear that the Albanians be using the time of the ancient Illyrian-Pelasgians. White fez, kilt, tirqit, mintani with black braids, or Albanian xhubleta (4.000 years old at least), still alive ... Well, these are the Albanian original heritage , because no nation in the world has not previously used except Albanians and yet we have remained without any break tradition.


- Zeus-Poseidon; Zues-Hades; Zeus
http://a2.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot...4_329405_n.jpg

- Dielli (Sun) and Merkuri (Hermes/Thot/Idris)
http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._6580153_n.jpg

-This one os from Illyrian tribe PHRYGASE or Bryghians, aliie whith Troyans (not to say the Troyans itself)
http://www.forumishqiptar.com/attach...1&d=1213317762

- Apollo
http://www.grisel.net/images/greece/Olympia79.JPG

-Here we have the famous apple, which fez Atlas whith qeleshe/plis in the head gives it to Hercules who hold the weight of the world with the help of Athens
http://www.grisel.net/images/greece/OlympiaHercules.JPG

- PATROCLES and ACHILES
http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/...patroclose.jpg

- Odysseus
http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8...aramontoq7.jpg

- Collection Albani
http://i48.tinypic.com/5lth05.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/2n8n9fn.jpg
http://i47.tinypic.com/spaeiq.jpg

Trojans
photo244.jpg


Trojans:
http://i64.servimg.com/u/f64/13/54/17/87/568-od10.jpg

13462_110083992372712_100001133356751_66181_5727719_n.jpg

This vase (where is Illyrian Kadmi whith qeleshe/plis) preserved in the Louvre Museum - Paris
Plis in lab variant, called a qeleshe, and usually has an little "antenna" on top, as Illyrian Kadmi in this very important artifact.

Kàstor (greek Κάστωρ, -ορος, lat. Castōr, -ŏris) e Pollùksi or Polideuks (greek Πολυδεύκης, -ου, lat. Pollūx, -ūcis) these two names are from Greek and Roman mythology, twin sons of Zeus and Ledia, known above all as "sons of Zeus", as well as the Kàstor
450px-campidoglio_-_dioscuri_all27alba_1050290.jpg


theatre_dioscuri.jpg


+ http://www.fotografo.to/to1/images/f...o-IMG_0270.JPG

+ Ancient Macedonians http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._3040852_n.jpg



Zeus, Athena and Hephastius
13462_110084582372653_100001133356751_66197_1571413_n.jpg


...somewhere in the recesses of the Vatican!
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6849517_n.jpg

S33.2 DIOSKOUROI

Museum Collection: Museo Archeologico Nazionale di Napoli, Naples, Italy
Catalogue Number: TBA
Title: "Dioscuri"
Class: Free-standing statue
Material: Marble
Height: --
Context: --
Original / Copy: --
Style: --
Date: --
Period: Imperial Roman
SUMMARY
One of a pair of statues, depicting the Dioskouroi twins, with travellers caps, chamlys capes and horse-heads by their feet
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3054070_n.jpg

Achille chez le roi Lycomede, Louvre museum
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._6277591_n.jpg


Let's see somthing from books, because like I always do:
Encyclop℗edie M℗ethodique, Ou Par Ordre De Matieres: Par Une Soci ..., Volume 3
By F℗elix Vicq-d'Azur, Jean Le Rond d' Alembert, 1786
Quote: Ce bonnet étoit fait ep cône, 8c ressembloit à un casque. A la plaçe de l'aigrette de celui-ci, on attachoit à ï'apex une baguette recouverte de laine blanche , appelée proprement apex. De là vint le nom des Flamines, selon Servius, a Filaminibus. II est inutile de faire sentir le ridicule de cette étymologie. La forme de ce bonnet, qui ressembloit un peu à la cause ou casque Macédonien, le fit appeler bonnet d'Epire ou d'Albanie, pileus Epiroticus. Les Grecs le nommoient v'Ui,ut<


Il perfetto dittionario overo tesoro della lingua volgar Latina
1666
Pietro Galesini

http://i53.tinypic.com/2hwisye.png

http://i52.tinypic.com/15g35w9.png


63962_149709888410122_100001133356751_236952_3838037_n.jpg


plisi.jpg

2449u39.png


+ http://i43.tinypic.com/1pvsy1.png
+ http://i40.tinypic.com/nlafzr.png

34096_110786422302469_100001133356751_69026_230359_n.jpg

...


Video:
Albanian Hat - Odysseus, Patroculus, Ptolemey
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1tvmnc3cVU

... and President Clinton also gave a symbolic message to the world about the albanian Plis/Qeleshe
154263_1615483519682_1614171932_1444406_3868676_n.jpg


Read more about albanian qeleshe/plis:
THE “IGNORANCE” OF THE ‘QELESHE’ http://zeus10.wordpress.com/
And this one, just in case... http://zeus10.webs.com/
 
Tell me about which conclusion of the above materials, you don't agree, or is problematic for you, and I will post you the same conclusion from another book, but not from "biblical genalogy" this time and to solve this "problem" :)

- About Etruscans, I will answer you again, after we make clear the first objection

Frankly, I don't know where to start. The (Neolithic) Vinca Culture was around 7000 years ago. It doesn't make any sense to claim a connection or continuity between them and the Albanians (or any other modern-day ethnicity). The same applies for the Pelasgians. We don't even know if the ancient words / name elements usually identified as "Pelasgian" really have any connection with the Pelasgians. Either way, any connection between these and the modern Albanian language makes no sense what so ever since the ancestor language of Albanian at the same time stage would have looked radically different.
 
I will reply you again word by word (as always, and I wonder when you'll do the same whith my posts) for the last time that you're spaming. If you proceed to respam only this dirty serbian propaganda, whithout arguments, I don't now what else I can "talk" whith someone like you, because you don't have the culture to read what your "interlocutor" writes!


Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument.


If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)



jhcvf5.jpg


If you have contra arguments...
- Tell me when albanians come into Balkans (don't tell me about any internal movement, field-mountain, mountain-field... addiction to invasions of others, remember here: Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)
Dorothy Margaret Vaughan
AMS Press, 1976
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg

Or this one: Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg

Or this:
If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
In the whole of Macedonia the Albanian language is spoken and the villages of Janina and Scutari are alone peopled by Albanians.
p.587
Public opinion, Volume 34
The Public Opinion Co.,
Princeton University

Or:
Alber Pike:
...in fact, but autochtons.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg
), from where ? (and why there are no any serious institution in the World, that confirm that migration)... ?
- Tell me how albanians called them self in middle ages, and what is the history of that name in this region ?
- Tell me why they now are still called Albanian, and what is the history of this name in this region ?
- Tell me why albanians, when after all thraco-illyrian (from Illyria, Macedonia & Epir region) tribes, retread in the mounains around the Illyrian tribe Albanoi, decided to call themself
shqiptar (what is the meaning of this name) ?
- Tell me why albanians lived in the mountains and latter the slavs in the fields ?
- Tell me who are the native, those who live in the mountains, or those who live in the fields ?
- Tell me why they have pelasgian, illyrian, thracian, etruscan, hittite... words in their lexicon?
- Tell me why they have greek and latin atrocities in their langauge ?
- Tell me how can they borrow so much Latin and a few Greek words, if they whould not live near them (greeks) or under them (latins), when they (latins) invaded Illyrian peninsula ?
- Tell me why some albanian roots and other small semantic units are in the greek and latin language ?
- Tell me from where are derived these albanian pure words (which are not greek, not latin, not slavic... but a particular language in their own) ?
- Tell me why all international serious scientists (linguists), whith the method of comparison of the language, and etymology ... have reached the conclusion that Albanian is one of the oldest languages ​​of the continent (are they all nationalist) ?
- Tell me why albanians language has so much sub-dialects (Dr. Robert Elsie was registred 137 of them, but there are much more); Does that mean that these people have lived in a wider region (about ancient greeks, or the elite of the region, they were barbarians= Pelasgians, or Thraco-Illyrian tribes... Epirotes, Macedonians...), but of the same culture (the same language) ?

Answer me about all these question, if you don't want to spam again...
...
Also, against your serbian propaganda, I've posted you so much material here:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25617-Fustanella/page5
... to make up your mind, but as always, you don't read or care at all !

Also about "migration" i've posted you so much materials there, and above also... but as always, you don't evend read!
Let's try one by one again.... from a book, not from my mind:
(Let's give sentence by sentence, as a child, because you don't read:)
Step 1:
...We are able to trace with tolerable certainty the long series of historical transformations by which the ancient Epirotes, Illyrians, and Macedonians, were reborn during the Middle Ages into the modern Albanian race...
Ridpath's history of the world - Ridpath, John Clark, Volume: 2 - New York, Merrill & Baker
Step 2 in the second comment, this time i will not post you another book ;)


Some albanian were able better to survive when they change their religion in Islam, because then the differences beetwen south slavic invaders and new greeks, became double (national & religious). Other orthodox albanians become the greaters greeks and slavs... you can see it today from their DNA ;)
Also I posted you the first constitution of the new Greek state in 1821
This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
http://a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphot..._1227707_n.jpg

Here is translated in english:
http://i55.tinypic.com/29qjyuu.jpg

...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.


You have a great fantasy, but why you post in a thread about the albanians, when you don't now nothing at all about these people.
Albanians have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!).


While I'm reading people like you, is being made ​​completely clear :)
Illyrian origin about albanians is composed from international scientists, not by Albanians. No serious study is not done by the Albanians, because they did not have a free state, institutions ... only in the case of the Albanians we can say that nationalism has no place!


Albanian intelectuals have another job to do... how to make money, because we still are poorest people of Europe ;)
If there would not have been (And I bow in gratitude before them) German, French, English, Italian, American and any Slavic or Greek free scientists, albanians will proceed to be the most unknown nation to them. The period of iluminasion in Europe, was when europian scientists started to be interested about the language and history of albanians and ancient Europe at all, whithout pseudo-nationalism. Because science has suffered a lot from people like you!
Like Johan Erik Tunman said in his ”Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte oestlichen europaeischen Voelker” (Leipzig 1774)
No other race in the living World is such unknown for the western Europians like the Albanians are. Nevertheless, they used to be the main race in the antiquity playing a dominant role in it, so any scholar who study history would be interested for. Their history would have filled the great gaps in the history of Europe old or new whatsoever. However… now, they dont play any special role anymore. Now they are subservient, they are unfortunate, and the western historians in these circumstances behave in an unfair way, the same with regular people, they dont have respect for the unfortunate ones.








There was no Albanians in ancient times, do you see people saying there where Italians, French , Dutch, English etc etc people in ancient times. No you do not, so stop mixing modern terminology of people with ancient tribes.
 
I think the word elf is after another meaning

elf in northern many things by with south is connected with deer (ελαφ-ος)
elf might be connected with hunting tribes or cultures who wear deer horns etc mainly deep forest culture
godess artemis living and worship style,
ιερα ελαφος

You are wrong. The Greek word 'elapho-' has a different reflex in Germanic. The PIE root is *elenbho-, which is reflected in English as 'lamb'. Cognates also exist in the Celtic languages (Welsh 'elain', Old Irish 'elit' - both meaning 'doe').

while the word alba exist in Greek as alabastros albiona
probably connection of word white or change of al with la
remember the stone for stone is la
so maybe in latium is mountain Albani but if it original was mount Labani means rocky mountains as in Pelasgian minoan etc
compare the word La-riss = Stone fortification or rocky nose (acropolis)
Lapis in italian
Lapis lazuli
Labrys (the stone hammer)

personnaly both are accepted

since albion is also the white seagull
(compare albatros) etc
Besides albion (england) in Greek means land of seagulls

alba must be also connected with alabaster

You are also wrong here. The word "Albatros" is derived from Arabic via Spanish "Alcatraz".

Both the Celtic and Germanic (as well as Latin) words are indeed derived from "Albh-".

There was no Albanians in ancient times, do you see people saying there where Italians, French , Dutch, English etc etc people in ancient times. No you do not, so stop mixing modern terminology of people with ancient tribes.

Well, we have no idea what the Proto-Albanians designated themselves as. As established before, "Albanians" in an exonym (just like "Germans" or "Welsh"), and we do not know how the Proto-Albanians in Antiquity designated themselves.

To pick the example of the Welsh, their self-designation "Cymry" would have been rendered as "Combrogi" in Antiquity. However, we don't see that term. Instead, we only find the designation Britons (Latin 'Britanni', which applied for all Celtic peoples in Britain - at least those living south of the Hadrian's Wall), as well as individual tribal names (Ordovici, Silures, etc.). So, we can expect that the Welsh identity only emerged in the Dark Ages when the Britonic tribes had to band together to fight off the Anglo-Saxons.

For the Proto-Albanians, if they designated themselves as something akin to "Shqiptar" in Aniquity, we should see names like "Skipteri" or "Skipteroi" attested, which we don't.
 
Yes I am mad when people like you (who don't even read), in the name of the truth, repeat the same words, as the parrot, whithot trying to give any contra argument.
Stop posting outdated evidence then I'll take you seriously.


If you say it, I'm gonna leave it as you say ;)



jhcvf5.jpg
Out dated evidence.


f you have contra arguments...
- Tell me when albanians come into Balkans (don't tell me about any internal movement, field-mountain, mountain-field... addiction to invasions of others, remember here: Except Albanians, none of peoples of the Balkans was not native, they were all conquering...
Europe and the Turk: a pattern of alliances, 1350-1700 (Edition reprint)
Dorothy Margaret Vaughan
AMS Press, 1976
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._1683867_n.jpg

Or this one: Albanian indeed the right to look on Greek, Roman, Norman, Angevin, Servian, Ventian and Ottoman, as alike intruders whithin his own immemorial land
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._4863425_n.jpg

Or this:
If there is a truly autochthonous race in the world it is certainly the Albanian race, as it is formed of the descendants of the Pelasgians and has kept for centuries the unique qualities of energy and intelligence which characterized its ancestors.
In the whole of Macedonia the Albanian language is spoken and the villages of Janina and Scutari are alone peopled by Albanians.
p.587
Public opinion, Volume 34
The Public Opinion Co.,
Princeton University

Or:
Alber Pike:
...in fact, but autochtons.
Oudated evidence, albanians are everywhere were they are now because they were Muslim in the Ottoman empire, and had greater freedom of movement.
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net..._3956048_n.jpg), from where ? (and why there are no any serious institution in the World, that confirm that migration)... ?
- Tell me how albanians called them self in middle ages, and what is the history of that name in this region ?


What do you mean no serious institution? its recorded when the first mention of albanians came to be by the Italians. Albanians called themselves what they call themselves now, shiptar. Its a big deviation to think that the Gheg albanians called themselves that and latter they used the term Shiptar.

- Tell me why they now are still called Albanian, and what is the history of this name in this region ?
you don't call yourselves albanian, you call ouselves shiptar, its a very big difference.

- Tell me why albanians, when after all thraco-illyrian (from Illyria, Macedonia & Epir region) tribes, retread in the mounains around the Illyrian tribe Albanoi, decided to call themself shqiptar (what is the meaning of this name) ?
These two don't make sence. Illyrians didn't retreat into the mountains and call themselves shiptar, thats albanian nationalistic history you are talking. Shiptars arrived in albanian in the middle ages.

- Tell me why albanians lived in the mountains and latter the slavs in the fields ?
- Tell me who are the native, those who live in the mountains, or those who live in the fields ?
Shiptars didn't just live in mountains, so this doesn't matter. The slavs also live in mountainous regions yet you say they are invaders? double standards of logic?

- Tell me why they have pelasgian, illyrian, thracian, etruscan, hittite... words in their lexicon?
Illyrian and thracian words came form the "slavs". The others I can't comment on for the lack of knowledge.

- Tell me why they have greek and latin atrocities in their langauge ?
- Tell me how can they borrow so much Latin and a few Greek words, if they whould not live near them (greeks) or under them (latins), when they (latins) invaded Illyrian peninsula ?
Tosk dialect. Vlach influence. Direct greek influene in teh south and latin influence across the adriatic.
- Tell me why some albanian roots and other small semantic units are in the greek and latin language ?
- Tell me from where are derived these albanian pure words (which are not greek, not latin, not slavic... but a particular language in their own) ?
From where ever region shiptars migrated from, their native language.
- Tell me why all international serious scientists (linguists), whith the method of comparison of the language, and etymology ... have reached the conclusion that Albanian is one of the oldest languages ​​of the continent (are they all nationalist) ?
except for they havn't, the Illyrian theory of albanians is similar to the dorian greek invasion of the penisula, its outdated and isn't taken seriously anymore, except for albanians.
- Tell me why albanians language has so much sub-dialects (Dr. Robert Elsie was registred 137 of them, but there are much more); Does that mean that these people have lived in a wider region (about ancient greeks, or the elite of the region, they were barbarians= Pelasgians, or Thraco-Illyrian tribes... Epirotes, Macedonians...), but of the same culture (the same language) ?
No it doesn't mean anything except there are many dialects.



Some albanian were able better to survive when they change their religion in Islam, because then the differences beetwen south slavic invaders and new greeks, became double (national & religious). Other orthodox albanians become the greaters greeks and slavs... you can see it today from their DNA ;)
Also I posted you the first constitution of the new Greek state in 1821
This is the approach that today Greece and "new greek nation" is formed. Here's the constitution of 1821 in Greece
This proves your nationalistic logic when you use terms as "greater greeks". Albanians need to start learning outside of theri nationalistic dogmas.



...is clearly seen in what basis the Greek state was formed, thus clearly stating that the Greeks had no need to talk Greek, or to have Greek blood, enough was the religion (ie Orthodox) and this policy made possible the absorption (or assimilation) of many other ethnicities.
because more than just greeks fought for the indepedence.


You have a great fantasy, but why you post in a thread about the albanians, when you don't now nothing at all about these people.
Albanians have a SURVIVAL history, and a CONTINUAL RESTRICION of the territory and population (what is still going on...!).
Albanians don't have a survivial history, you just think so because thats your nationalistic construction. I don't care about changing your mind, nationalism is a disease that corrupts the mind.




Albanian intelectuals have another job to do... how to make money, because we still are poorest people of Europe ;)
You call youself an intelectual yet you take evidence like the one below from the 1770's as fact.

I think the most ironic thing about albanian historiography is they paint themselves as "natives' and slavs the invaders, when it's becomming more clear that the opposite is true. The people who live from croatia to the black sea (bulgarians) all speak a mutually recognizable language and genetics have proven them to be around for a long time. These "slavs" as most of europe calls them, are in a greater position to claim they decend from Thaco-Illyrian and the Thraco-Illyrian lanauge.

Albanians would never accept this because it completly put their nationalistic historiography on its head, and politically, this whole push to claim Kosovo as albanian native land though Illyrianization would be negated.

Maybe after tensions settle down Albanians can become more objective.





 
question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?
 
a curious thing in favour of etruscan-pelasgian-people from albania connection is the etruscans hat, similar to the albanian hat, the shape is similar thought i don't know if the hat is also turkish. or it must be similar but not with the same origins

etruschi_sdraio.jpg

etruschi2.jpg

SSEtruscanWomenFashion.jpg


that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia,

is the hat we might say as pelasgian,
its origin might be from Levant or minor asia,

simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
while Iapetoc had another way ,
according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc
while the north part at troy wars left for etruria (1200-800 BC) (pelasgian argos) that was taken by aeolians when thyrrenians left
an old branch from Theba invaded North mixed with Celtoids created Illyrians,

searching the Albanian language by many we find common words remnants of Pelasgian,

but true Albanians were the Thracian tribe albocense from Dacia who migrated in today albania pushed by Slavs, or Northen toyrkoi
to the city of germidava,
also a case of Cumans since Anju creator of Alba was cuman, and a possible mix of Thracian+italians +illyrians that happened at at Arbano (Germidava) as written in Maniakis Army who was an elite of troops in south Italy, and redraw at 1040,

I find the Kadmeian case more logic, if compare the HG and the linguistic,
than the case that center of all pelasgian was Albania and even they migrated to palaistine,
(maybe Goliath was Albanian?)

the difference is that from homer we realize that achilleus and odyseuus and Ajax-Locros were different tribes that spartan and myceneans,
Odysseus might be Pelasgian, Achilleus might be Thracian, and ajax surely as Locri was Grekos

that is the difference among Besir and Iapetoc,

the source center of Pelasgians, and where they split and who were their remnants,
in Fact Iapetoc if you read him claims that Hebrew have much of pelasgian by posting the work of Yehunda,

the thing that Besir is claiming is that E-V13 in ALbania is founder effect who spread from there, and not a Arcado-cypriot as we all know, transfered by Illyros son of Cadmus
the paradox is that if Pelasgian according Iapetoc gave the alphabet to Greeks at least 1000 BC why in albania we do not have written forms and written language at least until 1500?
in fact that is the paradox in Balkans, thracians used sometimes the Greek alphabet like in erzerovo ring, Illyrians used Greek letters and later Messapic
since center of pelasgians was Albania as claimed by some, that means that alphabet must be older there and spread from there !!!!

Besir is using Herodotos to say about Pelasgians but does not say that first mention in History of Pelasgians is Smyrna area and minor asia, which means Pelasgians where minor asians who migrate west.
also do not say that thoukidides say that recogns Thyrrenian as Pelasgian,

in the gennetick Maciamo started at thread about if G might be Levantine,
considering that in ancient etruscan tombs we find enough G which later might migrated North, as also the E-V13 that exist in Balkans, and maybe the J2
we find enough in thesally as also in in Etruria, and some parts of Albania,
that means that might have a common ancestor nation, but where was the center?
 
that hat is pilos and is not only etruscan albanian etc we find it in myceneans also in statues in minor asia,

is the hat we might say as pelasgian,
its origin might be from Levant or minor asia,

simply because we find that hat does not mean that all albanians,
Besir is trying to say that Albanians were the center of Pelasgian culture,
while Iapetoc had another way ,
according which pelasgian were a culture of west Ugarit-levantine, non phoenician who migrate to aegean created cyclades minoan, and pelasgian in north (Kadmus story) and return to palaistine etc
while the north part at troy wars left for etruria (1200-800 BC) (pelasgian argos) that was taken by aeolians when thyrrenians left
an old branch from Theba invaded North mixed with Celtoids created Illyrians,

searching the Albanian language by many we find common words remnants of Pelasgian,

but true Albanians were the Thracian tribe albocense from Dacia who migrated in today albania pushed by Slavs, or Northen toyrkoi
to the city of germidava,
also a case of Cumans since Anju creator of Alba was cuman, and a possible mix of Thracian+italians +illyrians that happened at at Arbano (Germidava) as written in Maniakis Army who was an elite of troops in south Italy, and redraw at 1040,

I find the Kadmeian case more logic, if compare the HG and the linguistic,
than the case that center of all pelasgian was Albania and even they migrated to palaistine,
(maybe Goliath was Albanian?)

the difference is that from homer we realize that achilleus and odyseuus and Ajax-Locros were different tribes that spartan and myceneans,
Odysseus might be Pelasgian, Achilleus might be Thracian, and ajax surely as Locri was Grekos

that is the difference among Besir and Iapetoc,

the source center of Pelasgians, and where they split and who were their remnants,
in Fact Iapetoc if you read him claims that Hebrew have much of pelasgian by posting the work of Yehunda,

the thing that Besir is claiming is that E-V13 in ALbania is founder effect who spread from there, and not a Arcado-cypriot as we all know, transfered by Illyros son of Cadmus
the paradox is that if Pelasgian according Iapetoc gave the alphabet to Greeks at least 1000 BC why in albania we do not have written forms and written language at least until 1500?
in fact that is the paradox in Balkans, thracians used sometimes the Greek alphabet like in erzerovo ring, Illyrians used Greek letters and later Messapic
since center of pelasgians was Albania as claimed by some, that means that alphabet must be older there and spread from there !!!!

Besir is using Herodotos to say about Pelasgians but does not say that first mention in History of Pelasgians is Smyrna area and minor asia, which means Pelasgians where minor asians who migrate west.
also do not say that thoukidides say that recogns Thyrrenian as Pelasgian,

in the gennetick Maciamo started at thread about if G might be Levantine,
considering that in ancient etruscan tombs we find enough G which later might migrated North, as also the E-V13 that exist in Balkans, and maybe the J2
we find enough in thesally as also in in Etruria, and some parts of Albania,
that means that might have a common ancestor nation, but where was the center?

very interesting
I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?
 
Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.
 
very interesting
I initially thought the albanians originated in dacia but have recently seen script saying they where molossians from the pindus mountains.
Would these dacian albanians be solely tosks, while the ghegs be from northern greece?

that is the origin of Albocense according Strabo amd their colony is Germi-dava,
indeed Anju family and many big Albanian families are connected with Alba Lullia,
that is when Albanians started to spread assimilating local illyrians and aromanis
in the lands of albocense later migrated Kumans, famous families where Anju Hunjades etc
there a was a pre-albanian substractum in Illyria, the Germidavians,
later at maniakis time his army centered there,
slowly, we have movements from Romania to Albania starting after 1200 when the 1rst wave Arbanites moved to Greece,
under an invitation of a roman ruler,

there is no way mollosians being Albanians,

and I would like to hear your source,

Albanians are a Dacian tribe who colonised Illyria, and from there spread,
original Albanians are considered the arberesh who moved from Romania with Byzantine army to sicily to Albania to Greece and then back to sicily,

who have assimilation of older population of Illyrians (Celtic+Pelasgic) and later roman by migrated Albanians,
just compare it with new world,
from a few starting colonies, the American continent is almost assimilated by Europeans, Linguistic, but not ethnically, the assimilation created new nations-cultures,
so we consider a 'white' one as American, US citizen from >200 years, but we also consider a 'black' one from south plantation and also an Indian from Sioux nation for example, but if we go back in time we find tottally different nationalities,
it depends on what time we see,
before Colombos there were many nation in America,
After we have the old Nations (maya-aztecs incas sioux iroquois etc) plus British spanish Dutch francais portoquese,
after few revolts we the USAers, the Mexicans, the brazilians the Argentinians,

so it is wrong to name Mexican an aztec at 1400
an aztec is modern Mexican ,
But we can not say Mexicans are from America and all mexicans are Aztec, or the Europe is Mexican expand,

now about Tosk and Geg, yes there is a difference,
I do not know exactly and I do not want to expand,




try to understand what means founder effect,



Any -dava toponyms in Albanian territory? Dacia was full of them.

yes there is another one in modern Albania and few more in Kossovo bosnia and fyrom,
like kellidava
 
question from an outsider (not involved in Balkan conflicts): Elias, I gather from your post that you think Albanians are later immigrants into their areas? Where do you think they came from?

Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.
 
in the 4th century AD, the Roman province of Dacia was on the adriatic sea.
The 5 provinces of roman dacia where
- Moesia which is modern Serbia
- Dacia Ripensis which is Transylvania alp area
- Dardania which is modern kosovo
- Dacia Mediterranea which is western Bulgaria
- Praevalitana which is modern northern Albania and Montenegro

southern Albania was called Epirus Nova

Illyria had 7 provinces and non where south of Montenegro

Praevalitana was migrated by mostly vlachs
 
Where I think Gheg speaking shiptars originated? dacia maybe, only clear if one takes a serious study of the Gheg language without Tosk influence, though I find it interest when I hear that albanians and modern day romanian language share similar vocabulary, I believe I read that here on this website.

Do you even know the difference between Geg, Tosk, Arbresh and Arvanit?(Previously a variation of arbresh, newely made an own dialect in the same line as geg, tosk and Arbresh)

The similar "vocabulary" you talk about is around 200 words, which are categorized to be of Thracian origin not Dacian.

Clearly you have absolutely no knowledge on Albanian language at all.
 
There is so much to quote here but anyway.


-I read somewhere that Arberesh are Romanians who went to Sicily, then back and then back to sicily.
I must say this is ridiculous. Arberesh are Roman Catholic Albanians. They migrated in Italy after the fall of Scanderbeg state. They were accepted by the King of Napples. Scanderbeg state was a vassal of the Kingdom of Naples and in fact Scanderbeg fought for the King of Naples by his call for an amount of time (2-3 years but i do not remember very well). For this documents exist from the Papal state also from the kingdom of Naples besides the Albanian Scanderbeg times. So this assumption is just ridiculous.


-Also i read the Illyrian and Thracian words in Albanian are from the Slavs.
Slavs assimilated the illyrians and thracians and not the other way around.


-Also about the biggest Illyrian genes in the slavic countries.
I don't see how it could be otherwise. Slavic countries today have at least 3mil Except Monte-Negro. So how did they become so much(considering they are about 7) from about 200.000-300.000 they originally came in the balkans around the 6th century with all the wars in more than 20mil? They assimilated the regional population. This is what we are sayin' lol.


-Taranis this is for you since i see your some sort confused.
Albanians and Shqipetar have no relation. Albania is the medieval name of Albania which at that time by the locals in Byzantine Chronicles was called Arbëri. Can you see any connection between Arbëri-Albanians? The first Albanian country was the "Principality of Arbër". Between the rivers Mat and Shkumbin. I'm not gonna go into the history but it was an absolute monarchy and the Prince was given the title Princeps Arbanorum.I'm interested in knowing if Albania and Arbëri have any similiraties or any common root.


-I read smth about Latin and Greek in Albanian.
I don't think albanian took the Latin and greek words into their language in the 15 century cause is very unlikely. Even I, that know almost shit about languages know that Greek words in albanian are from Classical Greek (See Taranis thread about albanian language in the Forum) and that Latin didn't exist in the 15 century+there are about 80-90 words in albanian that are from latin root but that you can't find in any other latin language , exp Bulcurum or smth like that that is modern day bujk in Albanian (See Taranis thread again). So if Latin didn't exist in the 15 century how did these latin words that don't exist in any other latin language end up in albanian?Also the first albanian book (that we know off) written in albanian is "Meshari i Gjon Buzukut' written between 1554-1555 by a Roman Catholic Priest. Book which translates into albanian a part of the Bible.


-Albanians weren't always Muslim.
All albanian were Christian until the Ottoman conquered the Balkans. Gjon Meshari again. So if albania was definitevely conquered 10 years after Scanderbeg death which means it was counquered around 1480. and in 1555 an book was written by a christian in albanian does that mean this christian is a Turk which once arrived in albania converted to Christian within 75 years??? This is a prove that albanian were once christian and this Christian wrote the same language as I write and speak today. Besides i'm Christian myself. Does this mean i'm a Turk who turned Christian at a time when Turks tried everything and put all the harshest measures to turn Christians into Muslim? Impossible.


-I read smth about dialects, Arvanitika and Arberesh.
Arvanitika and Arberesh aren't dialects. They both are Tosk sub dialects. And I speak Tosk.

This video is Arvanitika spoken today in Greece (youtube.com/watch?v=Re6gQSyM6s4). I left it as text cause since i have less than 10 post i can't publish links.

Anyone knowing Official Albanian can understand them very well, better that it would understand an Albanian from Lissus or Scutari or even Tirana or Durres.


-And last but not least.
If smo comes from somewhere, that somewhere has a name. Where from did the Turks brought us since we aren't Turks? Pls just don't say modern Azerbaijan cause is ridiculous and a shame for you who say it.


PS: Taranis don't forget Arbëri and Albania. Any similarities?
 
Albanians in the Balkans

A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes). All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people.


You are wrong. The Greek word 'elapho-' has a different reflex in Germanic. The PIE root is *elenbho-, which is reflected in English as 'lamb'. Cognates also exist in the Celtic languages (Welsh 'elain', Old Irish 'elit' - both meaning 'doe').



You are also wrong here. The word "Albatros" is derived from Arabic via Spanish "Alcatraz".

Both the Celtic and Germanic (as well as Latin) words are indeed derived from "Albh-".



Well, we have no idea what the Proto-Albanians designated themselves as. As established before, "Albanians" in an exonym (just like "Germans" or "Welsh"), and we do not know how the Proto-Albanians in Antiquity designated themselves.

To pick the example of the Welsh, their self-designation "Cymry" would have been rendered as "Combrogi" in Antiquity. However, we don't see that term. Instead, we only find the designation Britons (Latin 'Britanni', which applied for all Celtic peoples in Britain - at least those living south of the Hadrian's Wall), as well as individual tribal names (Ordovici, Silures, etc.). So, we can expect that the Welsh identity only emerged in the Dark Ages when the Britonic tribes had to band together to fight off the Anglo-Saxons.

For the Proto-Albanians, if they designated themselves as something akin to "Shqiptar" in Aniquity, we should see names like "Skipteri" or "Skipteroi" attested, which we don't.
 
A lot of talk by people that know nothing about Albanian history. Albania during the Middle Ages was known as Arberia (or Albania); most likely due to the fact that the Illyrian tribe known by this name became powerful and spread its control over ethnically similar tribes. Prior to this period, the tribes did not have a common identity and were identified on the bases of tribal names (as ancient authors have indicated). There is evidence of "Albanian" presence in Greece even during VI AD. Identification as "Shqiptar" spread during the 16th century, most likely to identify the people who speak the same language. History knows no major migrations that have taken place in the Albanian areas (occupations yes).

Yes, I mostly agree up to this part, except that I have my scepticism (on linguistic grounds) that the Albanians have anything to do with the Illyrians. However, I do not agree with this:

All available knowledge about the Albanian people points to a very long existence in the same areas they inhabit today. There is no scientific data to dispute the theory that Albanians have preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe better than any other people.

If we go by loanwords into Albanian (the oldest stratum are classical Greek loanwords), then yes, the Albanians have been living in approximately their current area since Antiquity. As for "having preserved the oldest language spoken in Europe", that statement I'm afraid makes no sense at all. The available scientific evidence heavily disputes such a statement.

As far as oldest languages in Europe go, the Uralic languages (e.g. Finnish and Estonian) and perhaps Basque are probably the best candidates.

As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.
 
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As far as modern Indo-European languages go, the Baltic languages are probabaly more representative of the original condition in PIE, especially in terms of declension (preserving all 8 declensions found in Proto-Indo-European, in contrast Albanian has only 5 declensions). Additionally, the situation in Albanian gets more complicated by the fact that there is a surprisingly small amount of vocabulary in Albanian that is actually native (that is, derived from Proto-Indo-European) due to the large amount of loanwords. You can read more about the position of the Albanian language in this thread.
This is exactly what one can expect, considering rather small group of inhabitants, overwhelmed by neighbours for few thousand of years. Under these circumstances it is not surprising that Albanian language was highly modified by surrounding strong influences, what is actually surprising is, that it survived at all!
Lots of herding in high mountains must have saved the nation.
 
Taranis,

Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions. There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?

Giuseppe Krispi would write:


…in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)

The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.
 
Taranis,

Your view of Albanian history is based on wrong assumptions.

Not at all.

There is a question as to how "Greek" was classical Greek or how much Greek there was in linear B tablets. Ionic/Aeolic dialects were described to have been barbarian languages by ancient authors. Albanian language has inherited quite a few words from Homer which today's Greek does not have in use. A good question might be who borrowed from whom?

This statement makes no sense at all. If you had an understanding of linguistics you'd know that each Indo-European language has it's own native sound laws by which words were ultimately derived from the Proto-Indo-European language.

There's no way how words that we unequivocaly can identity as originally Greek words are supposed to be borrowed from Albanian. This is because Greek and Albanian have very different sound laws (most notably, Greek is a Centum language whereas Albanian is a Satem language). Bear in mind that sound laws are exceptionless and apply to ALL words in a vocabulary. The only way for a sound law to not apply is that this word was borrowed from elsewhere after a specific law occured.

Regarding words in Homeric Greek that are no longer found in modern Greek, that shouldn't be exactly surprising: there's many words for example in Anglo-Saxon that are not found in modern English. But there's no way that these ancient Greek words are Albanian loanwords - that just is impossible.

Of course, this doesn't mean that there are no loanwords at all in ancient Greek (because there very clearly are), but there is no evidence of Albanian loanwords.

Giuseppe Krispi would write:


…in analyzing the origin of Greek language, it is realized that a major part of it reverts to Albanian…due to latters older origin; and in essence, the language that was spoken in centuries before Homer, even if it were to be half-Greek, it served as the source for most of the Hellenic language, and which basically does not differ from the original language…Pelasgian (Albanian, Mother of all Languages, 1831.)

The latest is the work of philologist Guiseppe Katapano, Thot/Thoth spoke in Albanian, and indicates that Albanian language (or the original language from which Albanian would have evolved) was spoken very early in time.

Sounds like a complete charlatan to me who has no understanding of linguistics.

The whole concept of the Pelasgians, in my opinion, is based on a number of assumptions which may or may not be true:

1) That the Greek term "Pelasgians" refers to the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece (since the usage of the term is vague enough, alternatively "Pelasgian" might refer to the Proto-Greek speakers, as opposed to non-Greek ones).

2) That all the non-Greek elements in Greek can be exclusively assigned to these 'Pelasgians'.

Even if we hold these assumptions to be true (though the second point is certainly false!), there's nothing amongst these "Pelasgian" words that can be tied with Albanian.

Also, I must say that I find it amusing that all people who seek to tie Albanian and 'Pelasgian' somehow try to convince us that the Albanian language was purportedly unchanged across a time frame of 3000 or so years. No language, no matter how conservative, remains the same. In fact, there's plenty of evidence in Albanian itself that shows the language is not very conservative at all.
 
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