Serb and Croat genes

As many users said before, the main difference between Croats and rest of "ex-yugoslavs" (except Slovenians) is croatian lack of E,J,B haplogroups which make a significant proportions in Serbs, Montenegrins, rep.Macedonians, and even Bosnians.

Croatians practically don't have E,J,B haplogroups, which is not case with other "ex-yugoslavs" (except slovenians) who have 30% to 40% of this three haplogroups.

B haplogroup?
At what haplogroup are you refering?

Cause I saw that indeed, croats have a very low percentage of J and a low percentage of E,but they have a lot of R1A1 which tells that are more mixed with east or west slavs,or germans or something like that.The percentage of I1 is highest from balkanic populations also,in Croatia.
Sure there are no deep tests to see what clades of european R1A1 are present in Croatia.



From south slavs highest percentage of I2A din is between bosnians and not croats.But bosnians also have a high percentage of E-V13.
No ideea if the E-V13 version is really greek,might be from some other very old population.
Because I saw that in Albania is highest,E-V13 balcanic and is also high in montenegrins,so is weird,I doubt montenegrins mixed with greeks.
http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=E-V13
On the other hand,in montenegrins R1A1 is very low and this leads to the ideea that some greeks might be some J2,cause that is all that is remaining here.

And please,stop treating E and J haplogrups like some inferior people.
Look a little at Montenegro,the economic situation is great there,compared to Croatia,but they have a lot of E-V13,they also have almost 10% J2,so haplogrups are not telling too much about how developed and educated the population from a country is.
 
And please,stop treating E and J haplogrups like some inferior people.

Excellent point mihaitzateo, and I hope everyone keeps it in mind posting here. :83:
 
B haplogroup?
At what haplogroup are you refering?

I'm sorry I thought about E, I've put "B" by mistake, I'm writing to fast :) Jesus christ and I don't treat people with E,J as "inferior" people, all that I've said was about what is the main difference between Croats and rest of "ex-yugoslavs", is that a racist in your opinion? if it is, than I guess genetic as science is also racist, I really cannot believe that someone here is accusing me for been "racist" to HG's J2 and E and I was always neutral when it comes about this things. And yes maybe I am "little racist" (and I'm not racist :)) towards J1, but not for J2, J2 is in Europe for 6000-8000 years, J1 doesn't have any place in Europe in terms that, that is the clear "non-european" HG, and I know that everyone here think the same about J1 in Europe even though they would't admit it.

And economy of Montenegro is nowhere near croatian or croatian infrastructure etc.., Croatian GDP per capita is 19 000 $ and Montenegrian 11 000 $ (Romanian is 12 000 $). We would be even better if we didn't had the war 91-95, but we will be even better, also we should have entered in the european union back in 2004 if wasn't for our generals from war but that is concluded now. Anyway... I really don't understand what does economy have to do with genetic...?

I also think so. Croats are one of the purest European ethnic groups.
Croatian genetic picture shows that they are not an admixture of various nations but a completely independent formation between southern Slavs.

;) :) True, but Croats, Serbs and Bosnians are connected trough haplogroup I2a2, we should stick togethar stometimes haha :)
 
if you take post 214 and 215 in consideration, then i will conclude that E is basically from thrace to epirus. Considering that the greeks in the ancient times did not consider epirotes as greeks. where Dorians ever Greek?

I still agree with Terry Robb that northern greece, macedonian and albanian areas was E and north of these where J2.
I still maintain that the Illyrians brought I2 into the balkans from central europe .

There is no difference between any haplogroup in consideration to being inferior
 
As many users said before, the main difference between Croats and rest of "ex-yugoslavs" (except Slovenians) is croatian lack of E,J haplogroups which make a significant proportions in Serbs, Montenegrins, rep.Macedonians, and even Bosnians.

Croatians practically don't have E,J haplogroups, which is not case with other "ex-yugoslavs" (except slovenians) who have 30% to 40% of this three haplogroups.

actually, haplogroups E and J are creators of most big civilizations in ancient times...
from ancient Egypt via all middle east ancient civilizations, through ancient Greece (which has by far most contributed to modern civilization), and even initial core of Roman empire was dominantly E+ J....

so its kind of funny when someone tries to put those haplogroups in lower worth position....

Croatian lack of haplogroups E & J is due to massacre over romanized Illyrians who lived there... this massacre is not to be attributed to Croats....before them Goths and Avars made place pretty desolated except for some big towns on Adriatic coast.....

proof for massacre is high diversity of haplogroup E in Croatia - much much higher than e.g. in Kosovo and albania.... this also indicates that Illyrians were probably dominantly E-V13 people...which fits fine with I2a2 being dominant marker of south Slavs and hence today a common point in genetics of all south Slavic nations...


btw. Croatia has 42% of I2a2 only because half of the samples were from 3 sparsely populated islands on south most of Croatia where I2a2 is around 60-80% ...not to mention that all 3 islands were part of Narentania and that Byzantine authors record that Narentanes (Paganians) are unbaptized Serbs...

real percentage of I2a2 in Croatia is probably around 30% which is comparable to Serbia... and is in my opinion indicator of genetic influence of original Serbs and Croats spreading from areas of Herzegovina where they have originally settled, and mixing with previous populations......

in case of Serbia previous populations were dominantly E with significant R1b, J and R1a, E+J is strong as that part was much less desolated by attacks of barbarians, while in north Croatia previous population were dominantly R1b and perhaps also with significant R1a.. besides previous tribes, big part of both could be legacy of Goths

I also think so. Croats are one of the purest European ethnic groups.
Croatian genetic picture shows that they are not an admixture of various nations but a completely independent formation between southern Slavs.

Croats are so ethnically pure that in south areas (in what used to be called Narentania) they have up to 80% of I2a2 and northwest ones (with exception of capital Zagreb which has lot of immigrants from south areas and hence lot of I2a2) close to 0%... and for R1a + R1b its opposite....

so heterogeneous spreads in fact indicate that some parts of Croats were only rather recent admixture...but which ones I2a2 dominant part or R1a + R1b dominant part?
 
if you take post 214 and 215 in consideration, then i will conclude that E is basically from thrace to epirus. Considering that the greeks in the ancient times did not consider epirotes as greeks. where Dorians ever Greek?

I still agree with Terry Robb that northern greece, macedonian and albanian areas was E and north of these where J2.
I still maintain that the Illyrians brought I2 into the balkans from central europe .

There is no difference between any haplogroup in consideration to being inferior

where did you read that? that greeks did consider Epirotes as non Greeks?

in Fact it is written the opposite, concerning especially Dodona as primary land of Greeks, area which fits well the place Homer places γραικοι, area which is part and beside the R1a high concentration in Greece. as also if we consider E-V13 as Thracian, then why did not exist in tombs? and what kind of connection has E-V13 from thrace to south Italy? except probably Roman Army If we consider E-V13 as Thracian then then we consider E-V13 as a Northern HG or a Caucasian one, and not Levantine, I wonder why Brygian areas and Phrygia if has the same % of E-V13 as other parts,

it is written Ηπειρος μεν αρχεγονος Ελλας εστι
 
where did you read that? that greeks did consider Epirotes as non Greeks?

in Fact it is written the opposite, concerning especially Dodona as primary land of Greeks, area which fits well the place Homer places γραικοι, area which is part and beside the R1a high concentration in Greece. as also if we consider E-V13 as Thracian, then why did not exist in tombs? and what kind of connection has E-V13 from thrace to south Italy? except probably Roman Army If we consider E-V13 as Thracian then then we consider E-V13 as a Northern HG or a Caucasian one, and not Levantine, I wonder why Brygian areas and Phrygia if has the same % of E-V13 as other parts,

it is written Ηπειρος μεν αρχεγονος Ελλας εστι

one of many books on the matter

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=epirotes are greek&f=false

the Molossians are also initially not considered greek

another book
Epirus, 4000 years of greek history M. V. Sakellariou - 1997 - 480 pages

there are many books

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...=onepage&q=ancient epirotes and greek&f=false
 
ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16266413?itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum&ordinalpos=4

thanks - I think I red this paper yet - It seams prove that the differences (not too big) between Croatians and Serbians in Bosnia was not erased even with some seldom intermarriages - that Bosnia Serbians are close enough to Serbia Serbians, not too surprising - that Serbians as a whole as said by someones here yet seam to carry more 'neolithic' or 'near-near-eastern' genes - what is surprising there ???: the geographical position of present day Serbians is on "highways" where History puts a lot of 'go-and-return' invasions, and despite partial endogamy surely they took allogene peoples with them or settled among this 'aborigenes' , more than did Croatians -
for R1b arround Montenegro CrnaGora I think about the so called 'borreby' type influence on them (more strongly built than traditional 'dinaric types', more rufosity, different cranial and facial features: I would be glad if somebody could tell me the kind (SNP) of Y-R1b that come up there?
 
I really do not understand serbians,croatians,montenegrins and bosnians,after what is told they are all speaking same language,to me it seems like they artificially try to say they are different nations,with these Y DNA tests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Classification
"There are four national standard languages based on the Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian:
Serbian (ISO 639-1 code: sr; ISO 639-2/3 code: srp; SIL code: srp)
Croatian (ISO 639-1 code: hr; ISO 639-2/3 code: hrv; SIL code: hrv)
Bosnian (ISO 639-1 code: bs; ISO 639-2/3 code: bos; SIL code: bos)
Montenegrin (not completely standardized, but official in Montenegro, with published standard orthography)
Bunjevac (used in some media in Serbia)
"
At least if you can not stay united in some state like Yugoslavia was,why you are not making between your states some kind of union,like nordic countries have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries
I mean you are almost same,from genetical point of view,you have same language,what is your problem than,I do not really understand.

if I would take this kind of thinking,in Romania do not think Y DNA is uniform,what romanians should do,separate in different states?
That is pure nonsense.
 
I really do not understand serbians,croatians,montenegrins and bosnians,after what is told they are all speaking same language,to me it seems like they artificially try to say they are different nations,with these Y DNA tests.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages#Classification
"There are four national standard languages based on the Shtokavian dialect of Serbo-Croatian:
Serbian (ISO 639-1 code: sr; ISO 639-2/3 code: srp; SIL code: srp)
Croatian (ISO 639-1 code: hr; ISO 639-2/3 code: hrv; SIL code: hrv)
Bosnian (ISO 639-1 code: bs; ISO 639-2/3 code: bos; SIL code: bos)
Montenegrin (not completely standardized, but official in Montenegro, with published standard orthography)
Bunjevac (used in some media in Serbia)
"
At least if you can not stay united in some state like Yugoslavia was,why you are not making between your states some kind of union,like nordic countries have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_countries
I mean you are almost same,from genetical point of view,you have same language,what is your problem than,I do not really understand.

if I would take this kind of thinking,in Romania do not think Y DNA is uniform,what romanians should do,separate in different states?
That is pure nonsense.

language means nothing in regards to culture, you speak and write in English but you seem not to be English
 
language means nothing in regards to culture, you speak and write in English but you seem not to be English

Actually language exactly means culture. Knowing a foreign language means that you know or have a general idea of the nations culture so at some degree we all here are British (or American). Especially when we're talking about entire nations and taking into consideration the time period.

Maybe language does not mean same genetic makeup but it certainly means same culture.
 
Actually language exactly means culture. Knowing a foreign language means that you know or have a general idea of the nations culture so at some degree we all here are British (or American). Especially when we're talking about entire nations and taking into consideration the time period.

Maybe language does not mean same genetic makeup but it certainly means same culture.

we difer..............welsh people speak english but are considered welsh in culture

catalans speak catalan are catalan in culture but spanish in nationality. Basques are similar.

Breton culture ..french nationality

Maybe there is a fine line ................but IMO nationality is not culture since culture is older than nationality.

language comprises a small portion of cultural makeup.

knowing another language would not mean knowing that languages culture. People in the world learn english and never ever visited english speaking nations......bulk of Indian customer service people who service centres world-wide know english language and have never left India
 

Read again Sakelariou

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UV1oAAAAMAAJ&q=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&dq=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GyRhT4zmPKbX0QWMx7CsBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg

It writes the opposite

Now lets see your source

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...gueiECA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=ancient epirotes and greek&f=false

What? a handbook for travellers? by whom?
Does his mother know him?

Greeks
a tribe described by Homer which expands from Pindus mountains to Aetolia-Akarnania a non mycenean
homer names them Γραικοι
Greeks an exonym that is given by Italians,
inner name Ελληνες,
Makedonians are not Greeks, neither peloponese, neither cretans
They are Hellenes

now when ancient authors like strabo say archegonus Ellas for Epirus knows something
what that means = PRIMARY GREECE IS EPIRUS.
and he is correct, word Hellenes from as it is said Hellanas river (a river that starts from mount Pindus and goes to thessaly to Phthia) the land of Achilleus, the same land that driopes passed to go to Dodona and build the oracle,
Makedonians did not visit Delphi But Dodona,
also Olympias the queen of Molossians Daughter of Achilleus,
Alexander son of Hercules by his father, son of achlleus by his mother,
Achilleus semi-god of Epirotans- Greeks

do not confuse the tribe Greeks and their homeland Greece, with the later Ducat of Greece, and today preferacture of Sterea Greece,

many author drop to that,
it is like Germany and Deutsch and Dutch is the same, or Franks are Germanic, so Gemany is Deutsch, so Franks are Deutsch

Greek and Greece is an exonym and does not describe well all inner names,
Greece as primary is the land of Γραικοι of Homer, and not Hellas,
Peloponese, Makedonia, Crete etc is not Greece but Hellas
primary Greece as Land is Epirus, Thessaly (Aeolian tlands) to the sea of Corinth. living beside with the Locri (Dorian tribe) tribe of Αιας ο Λοκρος, different from Αιας ο Τελαμονιος
later with Romans favor tactic became Attica as Greece and later the Ducat of Greece -Athens, and much later all area from Aetolia to Evoea (Ευβοια) as Sterea Greece preferacture leaving outside Epirus and Thessaly
 
Read again Sakelariou

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=UV1oAAAAMAAJ&q=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&dq=inauthor:"M.+V.+Sakellariou"&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GyRhT4zmPKbX0QWMx7CsBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg

It writes the opposite

Now lets see your source

http://books.google.com.au/books?id...gueiECA&ved=0CFcQ6AEwCDgK#v=onepage&q=ancient epirotes and greek&f=false

What? a handbook for travellers? by whom?
Does his mother know him?

Greeks
a tribe described by Homer which expands from Pindus mountains to Aetolia-Akarnania a non mycenean
homer names them Γραικοι
Greeks an exonym that is given by Italians,
inner name Ελληνες,
Makedonians are not Greeks, neither peloponese, neither cretans
They are Hellenes

now when ancient authors like strabo say archegonus Ellas for Epirus knows something
what that means = PRIMARY GREECE IS EPIRUS.
and he is correct, word Hellenes from as it is said Hellanas river (a river that starts from mount Pindus and goes to thessaly to Phthia) the land of Achilleus, the same land that driopes passed to go to Dodona and build the oracle,
Makedonians did not visit Delphi But Dodona,
also Olympias the queen of Molossians Daughter of Achilleus,
Alexander son of Hercules by his father, son of achlleus by his mother,
Achilleus semi-god of Epirotans- Greeks

do not confuse the tribe Greeks and their homeland Greece, with the later Ducat of Greece, and today preferacture of Sterea Greece,

many author drop to that,
it is like Germany and Deutsch and Dutch is the same, or Franks are Germanic, so Gemany is Deutsch, so Franks are Deutsch

Greek and Greece is an exonym and does not describe well all inner names,
Greece as primary is the land of Γραικοι of Homer, and not Hellas,
Peloponese, Makedonia, Crete etc is not Greece but Hellas
primary Greece as Land is Epirus, Thessaly (Aeolian tlands) to the sea of Corinth. living beside with the Locri (Dorian tribe) tribe of Αιας ο Λοκρος, different from Αιας ο Τελαμονιος
later with Romans favor tactic became Attica as Greece and later the Ducat of Greece -Athens, and much later all area from Aetolia to Evoea (Ευβοια) as Sterea Greece preferacture leaving outside Epirus and Thessaly

let me understand you correctly, you are saying that greeks formed in the pindus mountains of Thessally , so it makes the myceneans non- greek. so the greeks where not around in Homer's bronze age
OR are you saying they where always greeks and the creation of people in the pindus where Hellenes
 
let me understand you correctly, you are saying that greeks formed in the pindus mountains of Thessally , so it makes the myceneans non- greek. so the greeks where not around in Homer's bronze age
OR are you saying they where always greeks and the creation of people in the pindus where Hellenes

Correct.

Homer names as Γραικοι (greeks) the area of south Epirus until corinthian bay beside Locri
Epeirus is alternate name from Chaonia Central parts of (chaos = apeiron)

Homer does not use the word greeks for myceneans but for South epeirotans and Pindus people besides Locri
Γραικος means like mountain,
the primary land is near Arta in EPeirus, there you see names and toponyms like γρεκικο etc

read homer Iliad B 498
γραικος (greek) is After Epirotan Dodona oracle priests tribal rulers γραιοι who devastate to Tana-graia or just Graia (modern tanagra) and from there to Italy giving the name Greeks to the ones who spoke the Hellenic Language (the exonym)
in fact Greek is the older name of Epirotans and Dodona, remember Makedonians called them πελιοι (παλιοι. old ones)
So after the city Graia the area is Greece.

to make it more easy
Myceneans are not Greeks as Γραικοι (inner name) but they are Greeks as exonym.


in fact majority of Graikoi (Greek tribal) moved to Italy, and create Cymae Cuma next to Neapolis
and brought Greek alphabet which later named Latin, while in Greece adopted the Ionian one which many say as phoenician, but Pelasgian to me,
 
Hi there,

I think E-V13 people where paleo-balkanians who did not yet call themselves Greeks (Hellenes), Illyrians, Dardanians, Paeonians. Greeks and Albanians have the highest frequencies of this haplogroup, because they probably are the most related to these paleo-balkanic populations. Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonian Slavs and Bulgarians, Bosniacs also share considerable Paleo-balkanic ancestry that's why they also have this haplogroup, albeit some perhaps in somewhat lower frequencies. Same can be said for haplogroup J2 which is mainly present among Greeks and Albanians but also in lower frequencies in South Slavs.

Which brings us to this Greek/non-Greek issue. Since most people in the Balkans (especially from the middle to the south)ever since pre-historic times shared the same bulk of ancestry, the term Greek or non-Greek was primarily based on culture. The geography of Greece, the sea, the islands, the trade routes, the warmer climate and the proximity to other civilizations helped the South-Balkanic peoples forge a unique culture and an identity which distinguished them from the more backward northerners at the time. Southern Greece became the core of this "hellenic" civilization and Epirus and Macedonia where considered by most to be the border line of the Greek world. While the area further north was barbarian territory.

Genetically though, there was little difference between the Greek world and the non-Greek world in adjecent areas. I.e. the genetic differences between Macedonia and non-Greek Paeonia would have probably been not much different compared to Macedonia and Thessaly or Epirus.

Based on this logic, it is very easy to assume why 'some' Southern Greeks may have considered border-line Greeks to be barbarians at some point in time while unanimously Greek at another time. One way or the other, racially they essentially belonged to the same stock. Even the ones who never come to belong to the Greek world because they were too far from the sea.
 
Heres a Haplogroup map with Political borders


balkany.jpg
 
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as you can see bosnian Serbs have higher amount of haplogroup I than Serbs in Serbia what are their other genes like or percentages?

In what parallel universe?

Here are the facts:

Croats have 52% of I haplogroups and Serbs 40%, Croats have 5% of E1b1b, Serbs have 20%, Croats have R1b 30% and Serbs 15%, you see the difference? well everyone who is NOT F...ING BLIND can see it.

this is data i got of igenea i just copy and pasted it. anyway near easterners i dont know who would be classified as near easterners and whether illyrians are or arent but look at this:
Near eastern people in croatia (illyrians, hellenics and phoenicans)- 50%
Near eastenr people in Serbia (illyrians, hellenics and phoenicans)- 36%

Can I ask you something? Do you have any mental disorders? Well if you do not have any mental disorders than you would f...ing know that there isn't such thing as "near eastern people in croatia 50%", where the f...ck did you find this number 50%? Are you saying that haplogroup I2a2 is near-eastern? I2a2 is one of the oldest european haplogroups, and you should exam your head before you came to this forum, obviously this forum is not for you, you should check some forums for "village & people" or something similar.

Croats along with Slovenians have the less amount of any "near eastern" (what ever this is) haplogroup, or even neolithic haplogroup from ex-yugoslav nations, and THAT IS A FACT, and do you want another fact? Croatians are by genetic THE OLDEST EUROPEANS, yeah, you saw it right, you know why? Because Croats have 52% of Paleolithic genes (I), now here is one more fact for you: piss off from this forum, because obviously you don't have connection with genetic research and obviously you are nothin more but serbian nationalist with education on levels of AMEBA.

Ciao "fratello".
 
serbs seem to have slavicized and incorporated into their society a large number of albanian males, at some point in time before the arrival of the ottomans in the 1400-s. Since albanians and serbs were both christian orthodox at the time, they might have actually had good relations for some period of time. That is the only explanation I can think of for their mixed dna.
 
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