New haplogroup I2a map

I2a2-Isles is also found in Scotland as far as I am aware.

L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.

So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.

The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.

To reiterate, this small north-west European form of I2a2 is quite distinct from the eastern, Balkans-centred I2a2 that Nordtvedt calls I2a2a-Dinaric. 'Isles' is absent from eastern Europe, and 'Dinaric' [having 2 varieties- 'North' and 'South'] is absent from western Europe.

Curiously, there is a relatively rare intermediate form of I2a2 [nearer in gd to I2a2a-Dinaric than to I2a2b-Isles] called I2a2a-Disles by Nordtvedt. This rarer form has a 'hotspot' in Scotland, followed by Ireland.
 
L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

I2a2b-Isles has its greatest known density in Ireland, followed by England and Scotland. To my knowledge, we know of only one member in Wales. The English and lowland Scots distribution may well be in part due to Anglo-Saxons. There is some support for this from Sykes, Klyosov and Jean Manco. There is an emerging continental membership of I2a2b-Isles with German members, perhaps not surprisingly, in the lead.

So far, there are 8 separate subclades of I2a2b-Isles according to Ken Nordtvedt; A1, A2, B1, B2, C1, C2, D1, D2. However, Nordtvedt recently hinted that there may in fact be up to 10.

The distribution in Ireland has led Tim Owen and Ian Adamson ['Genes of the Cruthin' blog] to argue that some I2a2b-Isles in Ireland might be an echo of pre-Gaelic, 'Cruthin' tribes. Clade C of I2a2b-Isles seems to follow a pattern of alleged Cruthin settlement in Rathcroghan, Roscommon and Ulster.

To reiterate, this small north-west European form of I2a2 is quite distinct from the eastern, Balkans-centred I2a2 that Nordtvedt calls I2a2a-Dinaric. 'Isles' is absent from eastern Europe, and 'Dinaric' [having 2 varieties- 'North' and 'South'] is absent from western Europe.

Curiously, there is a relatively rare intermediate form of I2a2 [nearer in gd to I2a2a-Dinaric than to I2a2b-Isles] called I2a2a-Disles by Nordtvedt. This rarer form has a 'hotspot' in Scotland, followed by Ireland.

This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.
 
L161 I2a2b-Isles is absent in eastern Europe, where we encounter the I2a2a-Dinaric forms. The branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric parted company around 13,000 years ago.

Ken Nordtvedt has dated the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles to the Neolithic, and conjectures that 'Isles' was founded on the north German plain. It is possible that I2a2 got to Germany from the Danube region via the LBK migrations. From Germany L161 snp was 'born'. It is likely that L161 I2a2b-Isles got to Great Britain and Ireland via various 'waves' of peoples- pre-Celtic settlers of the early post-LGM period, Celts and Anglo-Saxons.

there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...

I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...

e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
(e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
25 according to classification above is value that only appears in 2 of Isles branches...)

Btw. Maciamo's map of I2a2 shows strange hole of I2a2 in area of east Serbia, while according to data I have seen, only real hole of I2a2 in Balkans seems to be among Albanian population of Kosovo... so I am curious why in Maciamo's map is there no hole in spread of I2a2 in Kosovo, and why is there one in east Serbia....
 
This Disles variant is much more interesting to me than both the Isles and Dinaric. I don't know is there any SNP mutation which define it, I suppose not. There is a huge gap between Isles and Dinaric. If take as true Nordtvedt dating of TMRCA for Dinaric which is 2500-3000 years ago, than there is a period of 10000 years after splitting of Isles and Dinaric before appearing first I2a2 Dinaric man. Disles is somewhere in the middle of that period. I can imagine that somewhere in Europe, probably Danube basin a 13000 ago lived the man, forefather of Isles and Dinaric clade. One his ancestor moved to southeast and other to northwest, but how to explain Disles than, what kind of migration and from where could cause it. As far I know there is no known haplotypes for I2a2* till now. If it would be such, the mistery of true origin of I2a2 haplogroup will be close to be solved.

Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.

As yet, there is no SNP which defines 'Disles' but it is slightly closer to I2a2a-Dinaric than to the L161 positive, I2a2b-Isles.

I agree with you regarding a Danube Basin origin for the common ancestor of I2a2a-Dinaric and I2a2b-Isles. The 'Isles' mutation L161 probably occurred in northern Germany.
 
there is one thing there... number of samples from uk in familytreedna database is just extremely large, while number of samples from Balkans and Poland in that database is negliglible... scientific papers so far didnot make distinction between Isles and DIsles and Dinaric I2a2... so in fact we do not know whether I2a2 in Balkans and Poland have Isles and DIsles variants...

I think it would be very interesting to look at tables with supplementary info for Serbia and Montenegro at:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

and see whether among I2a2 found there are exotic branches... in fact, also whether there is more Dinaric north or Dinaric south and in what percentages...

e.g. if classification at http://dgmweb.net/DNA/General/Hg-I-subclades-FTDNA-order.html is correct, I can imediatelly see that both in Montenegro and Serbia not all I2a2 is Dinaric...
(e.g. for marker 390 there are also rows with value 23 and 25 and not only 24 which is Dinaric.
25 according to classification above is value that only appears in 2 of Isles branches...)

Btw. Maciamo's map of I2a2 shows strange hole of I2a2 in area of east Serbia, while according to data I have seen, only real hole of I2a2 in Balkans seems to be among Albanian population of Kosovo... so I am curious why in Maciamo's map is there no hole in spread of I2a2 in Kosovo, and why is there one in east Serbia....

I believe that Nordtvedt has examined eastern European sources, and the findings are that I2a2b-Isles is effectively absent in eastern Europe. It is relatively easy to sort 'Dinaric' varieties from 'Isles' varieties by STR markers, and the type found in the Balkans is definately not the 'Isles' variety. The scientific papers are out of date regarding I2a2. For example, Rootsi et al [2004] did not even examine Britain. The FTDNA I2a Project has tested plenty of the Balkans variety of I2a2 for SNP L161- it always comes out negative. I2a2b-Isles is definately a distinct, north-western European variant of I2a2.

I agree with you that the scientific papers don't, as yet, make these distinctions. However, there is recognition of sorts. Bryan Sykes sees most I2a2 in Britain as Anglo Saxon in origin and not 'Balkan', whilst Jim Wilson [Ethnoancestry] acknowledges this 'Isles' variant of I2a2.

There are a handful of Polish I2a2b-Isles members but more than one has the German surname, 'Krause' and they occur in formerly German areas of Poland.

Look closely, 6 out of 8 Isles subgroups can carry 24 at 390. 24 is not just 'Dinaric' but also the value at dys 390 for most 'Isles'. Besides, we need to look at other markers aside from just 390. The 23s and 25s at 390 might not be significant- mutations happen.

The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
14, 15 at dys 385a,b
12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d

I agree re the hole in the map.
 
Jean Manco's online 'The Peopling of Europe' conjectures that this fairly rare, intermediate I2a2a-Disles was brought to Britain and Ireland as a 'fellow traveller' with Yamnaya bands.

It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.

If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir
 
It may be true, but isn't it surprising that nobody close to Disles hasn't left in eastern Europe.

If we talk about Danube basin as place of posible origin of I2a2, it would be worth to mention Mesolithic culture of Lepenski Vir. According to archeological findings the population of Lepenski Vir represent old Paleolite European population of so called Brno-Predmost anthropological type of hunter gatherers with specific architecture and religion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepenski_Vir

As far as we know I2a2a-Disles does not seem to appear in eastern Europe but that is not to rule it out.

Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?

You mention Mesolithic culture. Ken Nordtvedt's dating places the oldest clades of I2a2b-Isles [B1, B2] squarely in the Neolithic. However, Tim Owen and Ian Adamson, in their blog 'Genes of the Cruthin', conjecture that the oldest I2a2b may in fact date to the late Mesolithic, with a possible connection to the Narrowblade culture which replaced the Broadblade culture in prehistoric Britain.

I think the Danube Basin is a highly probable place of origin for the joint ancestor of I2a2b and I2a2a, and note your Lepenski Ver reference. Who knows at this point? You might be correct.
 
The following are key markers which easily distinguish 'Dinaric' from 'Isles' varieties:
14, 15 at dys 385a,b
12, 14, 15, 15 at dys 464 a, b, c, d.

In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro

385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

DIsles have 15/15
but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..


464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...
 
In I2a for both Serbia and Montenegro

385a\b (besides Dinaric 14\15) also quite commonly takes values:
13/15, 14/14, 14/16, 15/15, 15/16, 13/16

DIsles have 15/15
but indeed Serbia and Montenegro data have no Isles like 12/x and 11/x..


464 a, b, c, d is not given in the table...

Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.
 
Life is full of surprises. Take L161 I2a2b-Isles, with its British, Irish and north European plain presence. Around three weeks ago, Ken Nordtvedt emailed to inform me that he had found what appeared to be 3 Albanian I2a2b-Isles signatures. These have not been tested for SNP L161, but the STR markers look like it. Maybe these are NPEs, outliers or something more interesting?
I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.
 
I read about that Albanian samples on DNA forums, but don't know what finally happened with them. As far I know, till now, there is no other variant of I2a in Eastern Europe except I2a2 Dinaric. Even haplotypes defined as I2a* are mostly found in nortwestern Europe. Or maybe it is just lack of data in Balkan and Eastern Europe.

I'm in regular touch with Ken Nordtvedt as a fellow I haplogroup enthusiast, and as yet he is unsure of what to make of the Albanian haplotypes.

So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.
 
Yes, good point re dys 385a,b. My own values are 11/15 at dys 385a,b in the young subclade of 'D2' of L161 I2a2b-Isles. Isles and Dinaric represent two very different populations.
very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve
 
So far the 'North' and 'South' varieties of I2a2a-Dinaric seem to be the form of I2a2 found in eastern Europe. Did you know that there are some subtle variations in Dinaric though? There appears to be a specifically Croatian-leaning form of I2a2a-Dinaric, for example.
Yes, I 've heard for that. Main specific- low value for DYS 19=14. I have been watching right now all haplotypes listed in last study in Serbia and Montenegro ( about 166 I2a haplotypes overall) and only 4 haplotypes of 166 have DYS=14.
Well I don't know could we call it specifically Croatian characteristic, because in I2a Ftdna Project there is also only four persons with DYS 19=14 among members of both Dinaric south and north. Two of them are Croats, there is a one Slovenian, one Bosnian and one Bulgarian. And there is also plenty of Croats there which have no DYS 19=14.
I think that Nordtvedt write also about some specific Russian I2a2 Dinaric.
However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.
 
However in Eastern Europe and Balkan we are talking only about I2a2 Dinaric, which is only 2500-3000 old. But what was before that point? How is it possible that all other branches are practicallly absent in the mentioned region.

I agree with the most of your thoughts.
I'll just mention one more possibilty regarding history of I2a2. First of all, my definitive opinion is that I2a2 Dinaric originated in Polesia. And if we take that into consideration we may get to the following conclusion - that 2000 years ago all I2a2 subclades were absent from basins made by Alps and Carpathians (Pannonia, Lombardia) including Balkans. I think that this mountain range made of Alps and Carpathians represented borderline for many clades of different haplogroups, and I beleive this is especially the case with I2a2.

So my opinion is that when looking for the place of origin for I2a2 we should look North or East of these mountain ranges.

Speculating about that early history causes very unreliable conclusions in general, but if I would have to say was the place of origin in Northwest Europe, Northern or Eastern Europe, I would bet on Eastern Europe.

I think it might be that earlier European history belonged to G2a3 (Western Europe) and E-V13 (Central Europe).
 
very different is vague term... genetically they are very close populations... but genetically close can also mean e.g. having common ancestor 10 000 years or more ago.... still genetically those populations are much closer than to any other haplogroup.... complete I2 haplogroup is very nice puzzle to solve

Fair enough, 'very different' is too vague. Despite the branchlines between I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric separating around 13,000 years ago all carriers of I2a2 are genetic cousins. That is how I regard posters such as Shetop, Iapodos and others with I2a2 genes like mine.

What I mean by 'very different' is in relation to tribal/social histories and in terms of culture [values and norms]. I2a2b-Isles is associated with the north-west, with Britain, Ireland and the north European plain and hence with pre-Celtic settlers, Celts, Anglo-Saxons etc. I2a2a-Dinaric represents eastern European populations such as the various Balkan peoples. Sociologically, of course, there are commonalities between these cultures, but there are distinct, easily-identifiable differences between English and Serbian cultures, to give a friendly and respectful example.

The thing to remember though [in my view] is that we are not the sum of our Ydna haplogroup. It is only a small part of our genetic make-up. For example, my Maternal Grandfather's Ydna was I1-Norse, which leans towards Scandinavia. Then there is Mtdna, autosomal etc.

I take your point though. The I2a2 populations are close re Ydna, and I certainly feel an affinity with all fellow I2a2s, be they English, Irish, German, Serbian, Croatian etc. (y)
 
Haplogroup_I2a.gif
800px-AntikeGriechen1.jpg


if I2a1 were not Vandals, could I2a1 be spread by Phoenicians (their colonies are in yellow on map)? Any data about I2a in Levant?

The high point of Phoenician culture and seapower is usually placed ca. 1200–800 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia

this is in fact, imediatelly after "sea peoples" took over the area around 1200 BC

and word Phoenicia starts with Phen which is alike to Ven which is key part (start of the word is most relevant part of tribal name as suffixes are due to languages spoken and tribes may change those) of tribal name Veneti who seems to have spread I2a* as only two samples of I2a* currently present in family tree dna database fall exactly in areas of Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti of Britanny..
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

Phoenician homeland:
Akkā (Hebrew עַכּוֹ‎; Arabic عكّا‎), Arka, Arwad (Classical Aradus), Berut (Greek Βηρυτός; Latin Berytus;
Arabic بيروت; English Beirut), Botrys (modern Batroun), Dor (English Tantura; Arabic الطنطورة; Hebrew דוֹר), Gebal (Greek Byblos), Porphyreon, Safita, Sarepta (modern Sarafand), Sidon, Tripoli, Tyre, Ugarit, Zemar (Sumur)


list of Phoenician colonies:
Located in modern Algeria:
Cirta (modern Constantine), Malaca (modern Guelma), Igigili (modern Jijel), Hippo (modern Annaba), Icosium (modern Algiers), Iol (modern Cherchell), Tipasa (modern Tipaza)

Located in modern Cyprus:
Kition (modern Larnaca), Dhali (modern Dali, Cyprus), Marion (modern Polis, Cyprus)

Located in modern Italy:
Genoa, Sardinia, Karalis (modern Cagliari), Nora, Olbia, Sulci[12], Tharros, Sicily, Zyz (modern Palermo), Lilybaeaum (modern Marsala), Motya, Solus (modern Solunto)

Located in modern Libya: Leptis Magna, Oea (modern Tripoli), Sabratha, The Mediterranean islands of Malat (modern Malta), Maleth (modern Mdina)[13], Għajn Qajjet[14], Tas-Silġ[15], Mtarfa[16], Qallilija[17], Ras il-Wardija in Gozo[15]

Located in modern Mauritania:
Cerne

Located in modern Morocco
Acra, Arambys (Mogador)[18], Caricus Murus, Gytta, Lixus (modern Larache), Tingis (modern Tangier)

Located in modern Spain
Abdera (modern Adra), Abyla (modern Ceuta), Rusadir (modern Melilla), Akra Leuke (modern Alicante), Gadir (modern Cádiz), Ibossim (modern Ibiza), Malaca (modern Málaga), Onoba (modern Huelva)
Qart Hadašt (Greek Νέα Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago Nova; Spanish Cartagena), Sexi (modern Almuñécar)

Located in modern Portugal
Baal Saphon or Baal Shamen, latter romanized as Balsa (modern Tavira, in the Algarve)[19][20]

Located in modern Tunisia
Hadrumetum (modern Susat), Hippo Diarrhytos (modern Bizerte), Qart Hadašt (Greek Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago; English Carthage), Thapsus (near modern Bekalta), Utica

Located in modern Turkey
Phoenicus (modern Finike)

Other colonies
Calpe (modern Gibraltar), Gunugu, Thenae, Tipassa, Sundar, Surya, Shobina, Tara

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia


Let's check out Spain:
numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______J2(xJ2f)
1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____5.2
2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____13.7
3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____ 14.3
4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____11.0
5___Malaga _______—______—_____7.7___3.8____ 7.7
6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____4.6
7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____3.3
8___Galicia________—______ —____--____--____--
9___Cantabria ____4.3______1.4___4.3____8.6___2.9
10__Valencia_____9.7_______3.2___3.2____--___9.7
11__Castile______14.3______19.0___--____--__--
12__Basques a____4.4______4.4____--
13__Catalans b____6.2______—_____--____--____--

http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/EJHG_2004_v12_p855.pdf

5201225f1.gif


Abdera (modern Adra)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adra,_Spain - closest to area 5
Abyla (modern Ceuta)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta - north Africa - closest to area 3
Rusadir (modern Melilla)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla - north Africa - closest 3
Akra Leuke (modern Alicante)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alicante - closest area 10
Gadir (modern Cádiz)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cádiz,_Spain - area 3
Ibossim (modern Ibiza)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibiza,_Spain
Malaca (modern Málaga)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaga,_Spain - area 5
Onoba (modern Huelva)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huelva,_Spain - area 2
Qart Hadašt (Greek Νέα Καρχηδόνα; Latin Carthago Nova; Spanish Cartagena)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartagena,_Spain - area 10
Sexi (modern Almuñécar)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almuñécar,_Spain - closest to area 5

thus, areas 3 and 10 match spread of I2a1, while areas 2 and 5 does not...however, 2 and 5 are very near area 3 and there was lot of movements of people since time of Phoenicians...

in addition, by looking at spreads for areas 1-5 and 10 worth paying attention (and in fact better match) seems to be J2(xJ2f)... it is however not excluded that both haplogroups were spread by Phoenicians
 
Last edited:
I2a2 is the most numerous haplogroup in Serbia.

R1a is much less prevalent in Serbia, and for example, Slovenia and Croatia (former SFR Yugoslavia republics) have much more R1a than Serbia.

In Serbia missing more data, especially by regions.

Men in Serbia who themselves are doing a genetic Y-DNA testing are mostly I2a2.

Haplogroup I2a2 is quite widespread in Romania and Moldavia.
 
Last edited:
Let's check out Spain:
numbe__area___I*(xI2a1)__I2a1___R1a__G______J2(xJ2f)
1___Seville_______9.7_____2.6____0.6___4.0____5.2
2___Huelva_______9.2_____— _____--___--_____13.7
3___Cadiz________3.6_____10.7____--___--_____ 14.3
4___Cordoba______11.0____3.7____--____--_____11.0
5___Malaga _______—______—_____7.7___3.8____ 7.7
6 __N. Portugal___3.7 _____1.8____ --____7.3____4.6
7___Leon________1.7______1.7____6.7___6.7____3.3
8___Galicia________—______ —____--____--____--
9___Cantabria ____4.3______1.4___4.3____8.6___2.9
10__Valencia_____9.7_______3.2___3.2____--___9.7
11__Castile______14.3______19.0___--____--__--
12__Basques a____4.4______4.4____--
13__Catalans b____6.2______—_____--____--____--

.....

in addition, by looking at spreads for areas 1-5 and 10 worth paying attention (and in fact better match) seems to be J2(xJ2f)... it is however not excluded that both haplogroups were spread by Phoenicians


J2 fits much better spread of Phoenicians...

if they have also spread I2a1, than there would be correlation between spread of J2 (xJ2f) and I2a1...however, there is no correlation as in some Phoenician colonies I2a1 is 0, while J2 is very high (13.7 and 7.7)... some of J2 could still have been carried by other settlers, but due to proximity of areas 1-5 I believe that it is of same origin in all of them...
 
hey, how yes no could you psot the exact percentages of all haplogroups found in serbia and montenegro from that study you posted as i cant read it... need to pay for it
 
how yes no

You put new information. Great.

haplogroup____Serbia
I1_____________7.8%
I2b1___________1.67%
I2a2 __________38.5%

I ______________47,97%

In light the fact that I2a2 is 38,5% and I is almost 50% in Serbia, the image in introductory post is no more correct and should be changed.
 

This thread has been viewed 179756 times.

Back
Top