Who were the Thracians?

a map, Province of Thracia in Roman time:
250px-Thracia_SPQR.png



Historic Thrace area
Thrace_and_present-day_state_borderlines.png


Thrace
11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png
/ˈθrs/ (demonym Thracian /ˈθrʃən/; Bulgarian: Тракия, Trakiya, Greek: Θράκη, Thráki, Turkish: Trakya) is a historical and geographic area in southeast Europe. As a geographical concept, Thrace designates a region bounded by the Balkan Mountains on the north, Rhodope Mountains and theAegean Sea on the south, and by the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara on the east. The areas it comprises are southeastern Bulgaria (Northern Thrace), northeastern Greece (Western Thrace), and the European part of Turkey (Eastern Thrace). The biggest part of Thrace is part of present-day Bulgaria. In Turkey, it is also called Rumelia. The name comes from the Thracians, an ancient Indo-European people inhabiting Southeastern Europe
 
Thrace in Greek Mythology

Ancient Greek mythology provides them with a mythical ancestor, named Thrax, son of the war-god Ares, who was said to reside in Thrace. The Thracians appear in Homer's Iliad as Trojan allies, led by Acamas and Peiros. Later in the Iliad, Rhesus, another Thracian king, makes an appearance. Cisseus, father-in-law to the Trojan elder Antenor, is also given as a Thracian king. Homeric Thrace was vaguely defined, and stretched from the River Axios in the west to theHellespont and Black Sea in the east. The Catalogue of Ships mentions three separate contingents from Thrace: Thracians led by Acamas and Peiros, fromAenus; Cicones led by Euphemus, from southern Thrace, near Ismaros; and from the city of Sestus, on the Thracian (northern) side of the Hellespont, which formed part of the contingent led by Asius. Greek mythology is replete with Thracian kings, including Diomedes, Tereus, Lycurgus, Phineus, Tegyrius,Eumolpus, Polymnestor, Poltys, and Oeagrus (father of Orpheus). In addition to the tribe that Homer calls Thracians, ancient Thrace was home to numerous other tribes, such as the Edones, Bisaltae, Cicones, and Bistones.
Thrace is also mentioned in Ovid's Metamorphoses in the episode of Philomela, Procne, and Tereus. Tereus, the King of Thrace, lusts after his sister-in-law, Philomela. He kidnaps her, holds her captive, rapes her, and cuts out her tongue. Philomela manages to get free, however. She and her sister, Procne, plot to get revenge, by killing Itys (son of Tereus and Procne) and serving him to his father for dinner. At the end of the myth, all three turn into birds—Procne, a swallow; Philomela, a nightingale; and Tereus, a hoopoe.
 
a map, Province of Thracia in Roman time:
250px-Thracia_SPQR.png



Historic Thrace area
Thrace_and_present-day_state_borderlines.png


Thrace
11px-Loudspeaker.svg.png
/ˈθrs/ (demonym Thracian /ˈθrʃən/; Bulgarian: Тракия, Trakiya, Greek: Θράκη, Thráki, Turkish: Trakya) is a historical and geographic area in southeast Europe. As a geographical concept, Thrace designates a region bounded by the Balkan Mountains on the north, Rhodope Mountains and theAegean Sea on the south, and by the Black Sea and the Sea of Marmara on the east. The areas it comprises are southeastern Bulgaria (Northern Thrace), northeastern Greece (Western Thrace), and the European part of Turkey (Eastern Thrace). The biggest part of Thrace is part of present-day Bulgaria. In Turkey, it is also called Rumelia. The name comes from the Thracians, an ancient Indo-European people inhabiting Southeastern Europe


that area is the Makedonian thrace

its the thrace of epigoni, the part of thrace tha makedonians could conquer,

not the whole of Thrace,

the lysimachos Τhrace (Λυσιμαχος)

thracce was the whole area bellow Istros and east of dinaric Alps, while Getae was the area above the Istros (dunav)
 
R u calliing me names? How disgusting! Moderators please punish this poster!

You're funny. You act or you really are this way?

Anyway according to Thracians and them being modern day Bulgarian. I found this article on wikipedia researching by case:

Another study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age.This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age, belonging to some cultures such as Tei, Monteoru and Noua were found in graves from some necropoles SE of Romania, namely in Zimnicea, Smeeni, Candesti, Cioinagi-Balintesti, Gradistea-Coslogeni and Sultana-Malu Rosu; and the human fossil bones and teeth of 27 individuals from the early Iron Age, dating from the 10th to 7th century B.C. from the Hallstatt Era (the Babadag Culture), were found extremely SE of Romania near the Black Sea coast, in some settlements from Dobrogea, namely: Jurilovca, Satu Nou, Babadag, Niculitel and Enisala-Palanca. After comparing this material with the present-day European population, the authors concluded:

Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).

So if Bulgarians are the closest relatives to Thracians what are the rest?

If any one wants to read it in detail it can do it here
 
thought that is mtdna, which is the expression of just a single gene.. haplogroup analysis are useless, all autosomals analysis are the one which count
 
You're funny. You act or you really are this way?

Anyway according to Thracians and them being modern day Bulgarian. I found this article on wikipedia researching by case:



So if Bulgarians are the closest relatives to Thracians what are the rest?

If any one wants to read it in detail it can do it here


They succesfully extract Bronze Age DNA(samples from 4100-3200 years ago)
But the results from Babadag samples(Iron Age) are inconclusive(Eupedia's Ancient DNA mentions that)
Latins ,Greeks ,Thracians, Dacians/Getae and Illyrians had some common ancestors (Cernavoda-Bolleraz culture- R1b guys).
But there's a second wave(at the end of the Bronze age) who had nothing to do with Latins.
Those were Catacomb culture people(R1a guys) who mixed with previous R1bs to form Dacians/Getae ,Thracians and Illyrians.


http://www.hist-europe.fr/Prehistoire/indo-europeen.html
 
R1b in the Balkan is from Ottoman Turks, Hellenics and Celts.
Trachians were E(V13) mostly with a lot of other. Stop with the funny mith R1b the masters of the world that ruled everybody. Western Europe was also ruled by G2a, I1, I2b people which ruled over R1b peasants. But the rulers died a lot in wars and probably also R1b is not weak for the plague thats is why you have it so much in the West.In the Balkan it is the E(V13), J2a,J2b, I2a,R1a,G2a.
Be proud of you genes OK,but R1b ruled in the balkan yeah and J1 ruled in Scandianvia ha ha ha ha
 
R1b in the Balkan is from Ottoman Turks, Hellenics and Celts.
Trachians were E(V13) mostly with a lot of other. Stop with the funny mith R1b the masters of the world that ruled everybody. Western Europe was also ruled by G2a, I1, I2b people which ruled over R1b peasants. But the rulers died a lot in wars and probably also R1b is not weak for the plague thats is why you have it so much in the West.In the Balkan it is the E(V13), J2a,J2b, I2a,R1a,G2a.
Be proud of you genes OK,but R1b ruled in the balkan yeah and J1 ruled in Scandianvia ha ha ha ha

Please stop that, and be more polite towards your discussion others.
 
Stop what? Being polite towards who? The rude Greek or the Albanian that insulted me? I thought people here are interested in genes and anthropology, but up to now I see mostly racist pseudo nationalist!!
I will write then only in my topics and replay to people like Maciamo,which are polite and now about stuff, not to evil Kosovars and Greeks!Kind Regards!
 
Stop what? Being polite towards who? The rude Greek or the Albanian that insulted me? I thought people here are interested in genes and anthropology, but up to now I see mostly racist pseudo nationalist!!
I will write then only in my topics and replay to people like Maciamo,which are polite and now about stuff, not to evil Kosovars and Greeks!Kind Regards!

Well, Endri already received an informal warning from LeBrok earlier. I have to agree that without mentioning names, some people certainly follow strange ideas/agendas, but that is nontheless not a reason to insult them and denigrate them for their nationality. What I am asking from you applies to everybody else here as well.
 
I did not insult a nationality. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted by evil Greeks and Kosovars!All the best!
 
I did not insult a nationality. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted by evil Greeks and Kosovars!All the best!

Please calm down. What I'm telling you applies to everybody else in this thread.

You yourself said that the origins of the (old) Bulgars lie in Central Asia, and there's nothing much to add there. On the flip side, I find the discussions about trying to link nationality and genetics rather pointless, since genetic markers clearly transcend ethnolinguistic groups and most Haplogroups are usually vastly older than the ethnic group in question. To pick an example, Haplogroup E-V13 is without a doubt at least Neolithic in age (we can infer that from a find of it in Neolithic Iberia), and it occurs on the Balkans in various concentrations. Trying to link Haplogroups to certain specific ethnic groups, historic or present, is often a futile affair, because more often than not we simply do have not the sufficient data.

The question I really have is, to everyone in this thread, why does this discussion about genetics matter here so much to you?
 
thought that is mtdna, which is the expression of just a single gene.. haplogroup analysis are useless, all autosomals analysis are the one which count

My point is that since Bulgarians (or at least the Bulgarian here on this forum) say they are the closest relatives to ancient Thracians one (like me) would expect that modern Bulgarians, if not first would at least be one the most compatible with Thracian DNA, but not the last.

But also on a serious side note, i really do not care if Bulgarians are Thracian, Dacian or even superior life forms. I'm just "arguing" for the sake of debate and in hope of learning smth, not cause i care what Bulgarians are.

I did not insult a nationality. One Greek here called Bulgarians a couple of times Balkars .Balkars are Muslim Kavkaz People that have nothing to do with us! He is either stupid or wants to insult!So the Greek is that one that insults.Anyways maybe I should stop coming here,nobody replay to my threats and I get insulted by evil Greeks and Kosovars!All the best!

Sorta contradictory here...don't ya thinks so?

PS: Whose the Kosovar o_O
 
My point is that since Bulgarians (or at least the Bulgarian here on this forum) say they are the closest relatives to ancient Thracians one (like me) would expect that modern Bulgarians, if not first would at least be one the most compatible with Thracian DNA, but not the last.

But also on a serious side note, i really do not care if Bulgarians are Thracian, Dacian or even superior life forms. I'm just "arguing" for the sake of debate and in hope of learning smth, not cause i care what Bulgarians are.



Sorta contradictory here...don't ya thinks so?

PS: Whose the Kosovar o_O
People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace.
The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not!
Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav
I do not care about Albanians either, but Albanian in a topic about Thrace is like a Bulgarian in a topic about Vikings, out of place! Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!
 
I used Eupedia's terms for Cernavoda culture(R1b) and Catacomb culture (R1a)
to distinguish those people.
I'm not suggesting that the Paleo-Balkanic people were a R1a/R1b mix who had nothing to do with other haplogroups.
On the contrary.
 
People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace.
The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not!
Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav

1) Ancient Thrace was a lot more that just the area that includes today.
2) Albanians (Kosovars included), as far as i know by actual history and historical books (not proganda) until the day we're speaking the most plausible theory of our origin is of Thraco-Illyrian origin.
3) You do realize that in Albanian exist words of Thraco-Dacian origin? An example is the word "Kec", while the native albanian word for this word would be "Kedh" (directly from PIE) but both words co-exist.

Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!

Wait a second, :shocked:...are you using the word "Kosovar" as an insult? WOW just WOW :disappointed:
 
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People connected with Trachians- Bulgarians, North Greeks, Romanians and Balkan Turks(due to assimilation). From my father side I come from the region of Trace, now populated by Bulgarians and some Turks in Bulgaria, Bulgarians Muslims and Turks in Turkey and Bulgarian Muslims, Bulgarians and Turks in Greece. Our culture and tradition are for a big part Thracian. Albanians have never lived in Thrace.
The link that you posted is pathetic! Bulgarians and Greeks can argue about Trachians, you not!
Albanians and Italians are not really close genetically to be close to Trachians!
Bulgarians mixtures of Slav-Trachian-Bulgar
Greeks mixture of Hellenic-Trachian- Slav
Albanians mixture of Illyrian- Hellenic and Slav
I do not care about Albanians either, but Albanian in a topic about Thrace is like a Bulgarian in a topic about Vikings, out of place! Kosovar I called you,coz majority of Albanians from Albania are good people,that know who they are and do not steal the history of the other Balkan people!Macedonians, Kosovars and Greeks do steal sometimes!


in another post you claimed that E-V13 is Thracian DNA and Thracians were primary of this,
Let me inform you that E-V13 has its bigger concentrations in S. Greece and in Kossyfo,
that means that if your claim is correct, then Greeks Albanians and South Serbs are more Thracians than modern Bulgarians,

don't get the false Idea that only Odrysse were the only Thracians, cause Triballii (serbs) Paionians(Fyrom), and Albocense (origin of Albanians) were also Thracians, as also Historical nations such as Visigoths and Ostrogoths (read Stabo)
in Fact the tomb DNA gives R1b (it was never Turkish) and R1a although I HG plays significant role in what you might say as Thracians
 
in another post you claimed that E-V13 is Thracian DNA and Thracians were primary of this,
Let me inform you that E-V13 has its bigger concentrations in S. Greece and in Kossyfo,
that means that if your claim is correct, then Greeks Albanians and South Serbs are more Thracians than modern Bulgarians,

don't get the false Idea that only Odrysse were the only Thracians, cause Triballii (serbs) Paionians(Fyrom), and Albocense (origin of Albanians) were also Thracians, as also Historical nations such as Visigoths and Ostrogoths (read Stabo)
in Fact the tomb DNA gives R1b (it was never Turkish) and R1a although I HG plays significant role in what you might say as Thracians

I'd like to point out that E-V13 has been found in that Neolithic sample from Iberia, and in my opinion, E-V13 on the Balkans is very likely of Neolithic origin, and as thus impossible to be tied with any specific ethnic group from the Balkans - either modern or from Classical Antiquity.
 
The national pride in Romania and Bulgaria says that romanians and bulgarians are the descendants of thracians.
First question is,if this is true,why is the percentage of red haired with blue eyes (I am in and from Romania and still did not saw anyone red haired with blue eyes) so low?
Red haired gene is transmited,I would be curious if some test would be done to see how many of the romanians and bulgarians have the red hair gene.
The vikings are known to have a lot of red heads.
Also,in both Romanian and Bulgarian history no one remembers about Zamolxis,which was a law givers to thracians.Sure after 1850 or so,some romanians started to "remember" about Zamolxis,but there are no popular traditions here to talk about Zamolxis.
In fact is very likely that those romanians read in history about the presence of thracians and dacians here,they made the suposition romanians are the descendants of those people;after they read in history about Zamolxis,so they said Zamolxis should have been some law giver to dacians.
However,what happened with those laws?
Since the goths,who were where today Romania and Bulgaria is ,between 250-500 or so,are known to have a gothic law,which is very likely from the laws Zamolxis gave them.
In south Sweden,from where the goths are,Carolus Lundius is writing a book called "Zamolxis first law giver of gets" ( Zamolxis primus getarum legislator ) around 1687.
In Snorri Sturluson Prose edda,Odin is said to come from Troy.Prose Edda was written in the year 1220.
Snorri Sturluson wrote another poem,Poetic Edda,which contains a set of moral teachings,how someone should behave righteous called Hávamál or Hovamol.These are said to be given by Odin.
The connection come fast,this code was given by Zamolxis,and Odin inherited also this code,in case Odin and Zamolxis are not same person.

And there are enough of others proofs,that romanians and bulgarians are not the descendants of thracians.I mean they are a little ,but only genetically.
I found 4 samples of Y dna from R1a1 from familytreedna,from 13 samples,from Bulgaria,that were identical with norse R1a1 dna,on 12 markers (did not had more markers,those markers are ) with some R1a1 from Norway.
The markers were:
DYS393,DYS390,DYS19,DYS391,DYS385a,DYS385b,DYS426,DYS388,DYS439,DYS389I,DYS392,DYS389II
4 out of 13 samples,it makes maximum 5% of Y DNA in Bulgaria thracian (considering that is a sample from which you can make conclusion for all Bulgaria and that Bulgaria have around 20% R1a1).
However,if you look at how Norway,Sweden,Iceland,Denmark are today,very righteous people,etc is clearly that they are the real and only descendants of thracians and not Romania and Bulgaria,where corruption is between highest in Europe and so on.
Sure,in Romania and Bulgaria things could change in better also,is up to us,the people who live here to do this.
 
How can some people say that E-V13 is thracian haplogrup?
Is clearly,a very advanced population who came here in Europe,who knows from where,bearing a lot of them E-V13 on paternal line,very likely some of the greeks.
In Greece,is said that E-V13 have the maximum,35%.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HgE1b1b1a2.png
The greeks had the first University in Europe,when other people did not even knew to write,they had towns and so on,when others barely had any houses etc.
 

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