Latin & Greek words of non-Indo-European origin

I decided to write a bit on the most fundamental differences between Mycenean Greek and Classical (and Modern) Greek:

presence of the PIE sounds *kw and *gw, which became *p and *b in Classical Greek.
Myc. *gwous > "bous" (ox)
Myc. *(h)ikwo > "hippos" (horse)

- presence of the sound *w, which was largely lost in Classical Greek and existed only vestigially in some dialects.
Myc. *woinos > "oinos" (wine)

Mycenean Greek was written with a syllabary writing system called Linear B, which in itself is derived from the Linear A writing system that was used to write the (undeciphered) Minoan language. This writing system could only improperly represent the Greek language. There is an approximately 400 year period during which the Greeks were an illiterate people between the extinction of the Linear B script and the adoption of the alphabet by the Greeks from the Phoenicians.

my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
it is about 270 years as relics,
and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

now the letters Greeks,
You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
but lets look at english the sounds
why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

on the other hand you are right,
Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
even what left from it it is a miracle,
since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
to give an example is the υ and ου
ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
same letter has 2 sounds,
But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
while Athenean losses the (w)
and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

the case of oinos woinos

lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
Italian Vino w->V
Germanic wein sounds like V
English wine w->Γ
Armenia gini w->G

as you see the P-Q
or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,
 
my arque is the time which for me 400 is too long
it is about 270 years as relics,
and considering of lost evidences or not found yet might be less

and you know my point that Greek-Pelasgian alphabet and phoenician might be both from another older culture,

now the letters Greeks,
You know that greeks rejected letters, one of them was the διγαμμα F, a double Γ+Γ
so the one in West is F (ph) in Greek might Be sounded W
the sound of (*w) you mention is the sound of Γ mostly since Latin C can not express the Γ sound
Letter Γ sounds like W in words like were was why etc
but lets look at english the sounds
why and who if you write them down in Greek Alphabet is Γουαϊ and Χου
so the same letters wh change sound, that is something not accepted in Greek for non Vowels
since you know Kyme alphabet then you know that C was formed as Γ as lettering symbol.
But C in West never sounds like Γ but as ts (slavic -ic at names), K (coccoa) S (cinema)
by looking at English and German vocabulary we see the words coffee and Kaffee
so which is the sound of C ? in IE languages

the γαμμα and Διγαμμα case you mention is mostly a symbolic

another interesting case the German W which sounds like V in words like Wasser (it sounds like Βασσα) warum (βαρουμ)

in fact the case of Watter and Wasser reminds me the case of Θαλαττα - Θαλασσα - Αλαττα etc
as you even in Germanic languages we have change of tt->ss and not only in Greek
we might also have the P and Q Germanic since w is Γ in English (Q sound) and B in Deutsch (P sound)

ΤΗΕ CASE OF P and Q does not exist only in Celtic
but also in Greek and Germanic languages as lesser phenomenon

let me remind you that Π Β Φ (P V F) belong to same family χειλικα (lips sounds)

on the other hand you are right,
Modern Greek is far from Mycenean
but lets see we have a known language for 3500 years one of the oldest,
meanwhile we have Celtics invasion Thracian connections Roman occupation Christian slaughters Slavic movements venice warragians catalans and Ottoman occupation,
even what left from it it is a miracle,
since you know or try to assume PIE then you are able to know how a anguage change though times and wars and occupations,

Although I admit that Mycenean are considered as a special case of pre- or proto-Greek
But I don't believe that was another language maybe something like dialect which after 270 change to what we call Archaic,
Besides the case of Equus is after how we assume that Linear B symbols were explained,

as you see all IE languages have the tense to transform,
Even with Schools we are unable to stop this,

that was known at Aleandreian philosophers which determined sounds and aspirations, so a non Greek to understand and read,
as you know a good example is letter Ιι which before was γιωτα And after is ιωτα [(γ)ι , ι]

although Alaxandreians create a clear status of writing and reading sounds, that eliminated lower sounds and created new forms, (transformation of language)
IN fact that is the problem of modern Greek language,
to give an example is the υ and ου
ou is a strong fat and long time U (Uranus)
u was a short ου mixed with ι a kind of aspiration or almost sounded
υ In modern is just a sound similar to ι

that Help Greeks to learn read fast since υ has always same sound,
comparing for example english us (u=α) uranus (u=ου)
same letter has 2 sounds,
But changed sounds and eliminated smaller non heard which exist in isolated areas even today,

a good example is the mountain λι and the Athenean λι and makedonian λι
isolated areas in mountains keep pronouncing λι ας i keeps the γ (the sound is ι but the tongue is in place of Γ ) the sound is some like L(w)I
while Athenean losses the (w)
and in few years no one will ever speak the mountain formation, since teachers follow the Athenean sound system,
the makedonian li and letter l is different than rest of all greek it is fat as λλ and long time sound,
it follows the ancient palming tonque L like palming tongue R
it sounds as a vowel sometimes,

the case of oinos woinos

lets see slavic words Vino so w->V
Italian Vino w->V
Germanic wein sounds like V
English wine w->Γ
Armenia gini w->G

as you see the P-Q
or in Greek Γ-Β split exist in all languages,


Yetos,

I said "approximately" 400 years, and I agree the period may have been shorter. What is clear is that there was an illiterate period in Greece, and that the sound changes, seemingly, occured in this intermediate period.

- What do you mean by "Greek-Pelasgian alphabet"? Linear A/B? Please consider that it was not an alphabet, but a syllabary.

- the letter digamma is derived from Phoenician letter Waw (compare with Hebrew ו which has exactly the same value /w/ but different shape, compare יהוה - YHWH).

- Q/P does not exist in Germanic. What Germanic does is that according to the first germanic sound shift, *gw > *kw (PIE *gwen- > English 'queen') and *kw > *hw (PIE *kwod > English 'what').

- the development of water > wasser is a development that is part of the second germanic sound shift, which only affects German (and all of it's dialects, to varying degrees) and (to a much smaller degree) Dutch.

- do not mix up different orthography and different pronounciation.
 
that is why I replied

Orthography and Pronounciation must be same according Alexandreians,

Although the one you call second Germanic sound shift might be split similar to Centume satem to a w->Γ and w->V
similar to P and Q
If Universities do not accept it since they have written down sounds that does not mean it does not exist, and how will it be different in years


Just see and compare

Warsow ->Varsovia
Wein -> Vein
wasser-> Vassa
warum ->varum
westfallen -> Vestfallen
ALL W ->V
so why it is problem if qwous goes to Vous

om the other hand
what
where
who
watter
wine

All w -> Γ


Greek always change the letter Κ Γ Χ ανδ Π Β Φ

compare english wh in what and who

now lets see
latin equus Greek ikkos Slavic Kon*

so the ikwo (PIE form as you admit)
if w-> Γ then Ikgos -> ikkos
if w->V then ikvos -> ivvos ->ippos

then why we have split of Greek to P-Q according where w goes?
and not Germanic split also to p-q or Γ-V

why you consider that w->V and w-> Γ in German is shifted
and not in Greek?

the problem is that in the time you mention from Linear B to alphabet that shift was already done,
so alphabet follows writes down the sound after the shift, and I can not guess why?
but comparing mycenean and greek I doubt if it was another language, simply mycenean could more PIE in sounds or used another shift,
it is like English and Deutsch shift of W
both are considered Germanic languages, but they sound different,
if we write them down now today then w will be different from the time that they written

with different orthography

if we create a new alphabet to write down then surely english and Deutsch should be diffrent, that happened to Greek the time you mention
the shift is the same, but orthography is different
 
Yetos, you're making assumptions looking from modern Greek onto Classical Greek:

In classical greek, Beta represented /b/. In modern Greek, it represents /v/.

Similar sound shifts have happened with φ, θ, χ:

- "φ" was /pʰ/ and today represents /f/

- "θ" was /tʰ/ and today represents /θ/ (as in English "thin")

- "χ" was /kʰ/ and today represents /x/ (as in Scottish "loch")

Also, *ikwo- is not the PIE form, it is the reconstructed Mycenean form. The PIE word for horse is *ek´wos, with a palatovelar *k´ sound, which became merged with *k in Proto-Greek as it did in the other Centum languages.
 
well the Greek sounds are stable from Hellenistic2, meaning about 2000 years,

Greek φ was always φ and not ph
the sound ph was expresses by last number the sanpi π (pi and sanpi)
also θ and χ
the difference among latin -western and Greek is that letters are stable in Greek to a certain sound,

compare loch and charm

about B V Greek Β was always V and never MP
that is why we find Connection among Freek and Latin in ancient words with V
Greek Β is V cause the letters with leaps are V P F and not MP,
Mp uses nose to express it

so greeks prefer clear sounds->symbols


that is the point, we disagree

many times I blame Christians for their genocide against Greeks,
but many times I know that Christians saved Greek language,

The sounds of Greek language are saved through testimonies and ritual of Christian church.
so they are standard at least 2000 and more,
Many linguists in Greeks believe that they are same with archaic except Vowels (ο,ω η,ι,υ αι,οι,υι, ευ,αυ)

so the case you mention of Mycenean and archaic, is mostly true to effort of explanation of Linear B,


I wonder are only the Greeks that have the word Ippos?
or exist a similar word also in another IE language?
 
well the Greek sounds are stable from Hellenistic2, meaning about 2000 years,

Greek φ was always φ and not ph
the sound ph was expresses by last number the sanpi π (pi and sanpi)
also θ and χ
the difference among latin -western and Greek is that letters are stable in Greek to a certain sound,

compare loch and charm

about B V Greek Β was always V and never MP
that is why we find Connection among Freek and Latin in ancient words with V
Greek Β is V cause the letters with leaps are V P F and not MP,
Mp uses nose to express it

The pronounciation was clearl changed: the three letters are π β φ, which in Classical Greek represented the sounds /p/, /b/, /ph/.

The PIE sounds were *p, *b and *bh. In Proto-Greek (predating Mycenean Greek!), *bh became *ph.

so greeks prefer clear sounds->symbols

that is the point, we disagree

Yes, you go just from modern-day Greek and assume that it's pronounciation was always the same. It's clear that this was not the case. The most obvious evidence for this is how Greek names were transliterated into Latin. Had Beta already been pronounced as /v/ in ancient time, the Romans like would have transliterated it as "v". This, however, isn't the case.

so the case you mention of Mycenean and archaic, is mostly true to effort of explanation of Linear B,

If Mycenean Greek was representing a pronounciation that was similar to modern-day Greek, then many words would have been spelled completely differently. The problem, as mentioned, is that the script was originally invented for the minoan language and could represent Greek only improperly:

- no distinction between /r/ and /l/

- no distinction between /b/, /p/ and /ph/

- no distinction between /g/, /k/ and /kh/

- no distinction between /t/ and /th/ (on the other hand, /d/ was distinguished).

- no distinction between /gw/ and /kw/
(however, note that /gw/ and /kw/ became /b/ and /p/ in Classical Greek, and that these sounds were clearly distinguished in Mycenean from /b/, /p, /ph/ as I wrote above)

I wonder are only the Greeks that have the word Ippos?
or exist a similar word also in another IE language?

In Celtic, there is Gaulish "epos", Old Irish "ech", Breton "ebeul" and Welsh "ebol"
In Germanic, there is Anglo-Saxon "eoh" and Gothic "aihws" (both from Proto-Germanic "ehwaz")
In Latin, there is "equus".
In Lithuanian, there is "asile".
In Avestan, it is "aspa".
In Sanskrit, it is "asva".
In Tocharian it is "yakwe" (A) and "yuk" (B).
 
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I've picked up a few more examples to visualize the situation of Mycenean Greek:

Ka-Ko "kʰa(l)ko(s)" > "chalkos" (copper)

I-Qo "ikwo(s)" > (h)ippos (horse)

Qo-U-Ko-Ro "gwoukolo(s)" > boukolos (cow herd)
 
I've picked up a few more examples to visualize the situation of Mycenean Greek:

Ka-Ko "kʰa(l)ko(s)" > "chalkos" (copper)

I-Qo "ikwo(s)" > (h)ippos (horse)


Qo-U-Ko-Ro "gwoukolo(s)" > boukolos (cow herd)

and that is again my arque,

why we consider normal shift the w->V at germanic
and not the w->V to Greek and we consider more normal the w->mp =b
i mean Westfallen ->Vestfallen and not
qwukolo ->Voukolos
 
and that is again my arque,

why we consider normal shift the w->V at germanic
and not the w->V to Greek and we consider more normal the w->mp =b
i mean Westfallen ->Vestfallen and not
qwukolo ->Voukolos

Again, you are on the wrong track. The shift is not from *w > *v, but from *gw > *b, and much later *b > *v.

Why can't you accept that a sound shift occured between Classical Greek and Modern Greek when it is very evident that this occured?

There's multiple words in English, for instance, which were borrowed from Greek via Latin:

basilica
barbarian
blasphemy
boreal

The word "barbarian" is a particularly good example. Caesar and Tacitus both frequently use the word in their works. Had the Beta already been pronounced /v/, I am pretty sure that the word would have been rendered as "varvarus" in Latin.
 
Again, you are on the wrong track. The shift is not from *w > *v, but from *gw > *b, and much later *b > *v. Why can't you accept that a sound shift occured between Classical Greek and Modern Greek when it is very evident that this occured? There's multiple words in English, for instance, which were borrowed from Greek via Latin: basilica barbarian blasphemy boreal
and I still believe that they due to letter Β β and b since from koine language the β B is stable V in Greek, either the christian ritual will be total different sounds, the ph sanpi is exting since Greek avoid the -h after another letter prbably from attic language-dialect times, considering that Hellenistic 1 starts after Alexanders Death means that Greek loans to Romans should be more after Hellenistic even the South Italy Greeks are meeting Romans and co-exist in same cities much after Pyrros at about 2nd Century while Hellenistic starts at 4rth century so the B (mp) to latin is a Latin wrong spelling sound due to loan and pass to rest languages, Latin start loan Greek much after Hellenistic1 at least 150-250 years, it more possible that Latin translate Greek β to b A good example why greek β was always V probably from Attic is the from of past of Virbs compare βαινω and εμβαινω and εμβαδον if β was mp the why Greek puts another μ m? how you pronounce a m+mp?
 
and I still believe that they due to letter Β β and b
since from koine language the β B is stable V in Greek, either the christian ritual will be total different sounds,

the ph sanpi is exting since Greek avoid the -h after another letter prbably from attic language-dialect times,

considering that Hellenistic 1 starts after Alexanders Death
means that Greek loans to Romans should be more after Hellenistic

even the South Italy Greeks are meeting Romans and co-exist in same cities much after Pyrros at about 2nd Century
while Hellenistic starts at 4rth century

so the B (mp) to latin is a Latin wrong spelling sound due to loan
and pass to rest languages,

Latin start loan Greek much after Hellenistic1 at least 150-250 years,
it more possible that Latin translate Greek β to b

Well, you are clearly wrong. As I said, if it was pronounced /v/ in Greek at the time, you can be certain it would have been rendered as such into Latin. After all, Latin possessed the /v/ sound in Classical Antiquity already, alongside with /b/.
 
Well, you are clearly wrong. As I said, if it was pronounced /v/ in Greek at the time, you can be certain it would have been rendered as such into Latin. After all, Latin possessed the /v/ sound in Classical Antiquity already, alongside with /b/.

ok lets look at words
Greek Βαινω Latin Veni

so the before connection β is translated to V but the after goes b


considering inner Greek words

Makedoian Batraxos Vatrachos βατραχος
Makedonian bereniki Vereniki Βερενικη
Makedonian Kevali Κεβαλη (compare slavic glava)
Ionian αφορθακος af(ph)orthakos
F(ph)ereniki Φερενικη
Κεφαλη Kef(ph)ali

since b ->mp how much possible is to be f (ph)
V is more easier to become f than mp to f,
 
ok lets look at words
Greek Βαινω Latin Veni

so the before connection β is translated to V but the after goes b

You are wrong. Latin "veni" is not a borrowing of Greek "baino", but the cognate. In Latin, PIE *gw > *v. Compare with English "to come" (*gw > *kw > *k), Lithuanian "gimti" (to be born) (*gw > *g)

Why do you insist so adamantly on the idea that the Greek language is unchanged over 2000 years, when it is very clear that this isn't the case?
 
You are wrong. Latin "veni" is not a borrowing of Greek "baino", but the cognate. In Latin, PIE *gw > *v. Compare with English "to come" (*gw > *kw > *k), Lithuanian "gimti" (to be born) (*gw > *g)

Why do you insist so adamantly on the idea that the Greek language is unchanged over 2000 years, when it is very clear that this isn't the case?


Greek βαινω latin Veni
greek βια latin Vim


as you see all the words that are not loan have β->v
all the words that are Loan have β->μπ ->b

if I search i will find you many words,

All the Greek linguists say that only the Vowels ω ι υ αι οι υι have changed and

it is impossible to change since even the saved one in Latin keep these sounds
compare Evangelium ευαγγελιον υ->v

it is impossible that non vowels change since if then connection of ancient Grammar does not work
for example n+b does exist in Greek so it goes m+b but if m+mp then sound does not follow greek harmony and rythm tone,

2 the Christian new testament was written in koine Hellenistic 2,
it is impossible Christians who could slain for Christ to leave changes happen
the rythm of songs change if b was mp
spelling and pronouncation was basic in Greek theological schools,
that means that non vowel sounds never changed

it is like claiming that Latin change from translation Itala

so we are certain of sounds of Latin and Greek hellenistic for at least 2 000 years,

now the point when changes happened if happened

at least for Greek should be among attic to Hellenistic 1 or which I also believe from archaic to attic.

for latin I do not know ,

but the b as mp I am sure that from Latin adoption of sound
cause from older forms as I proved above B=V
only in loan words b=mp

It is obvious that did not change
no matter if that may destroy PHD's

compare Greek αβατον and Latin Avaton


the most characteristic word after christianity meaning about 2000 years

if β was b then abaton

so only in some loan words mainly by romans was β to b as adoption and loan word,
and from them spread to rest

the word economy is modern worldwide
but we can not use it to say that Greek οι was e sound
neither the word ecology to claim that Greek οικολογια is not correct
eco- is a western sound of Greek οικο- according their familiar sounds
if I say βολκσβάγκεν μερσεντές (Volkswagen mercedes) to Deutsch surely he laugh from my sounds, but adoptation of a foreign language must sound good to my ears,





I insist cause the same shift or drop of w ->V that happens in Germanic had happened in Greek also, and in many other IE languages, but not as b.
 
Well, let me ask you then, why is it then that words which include *b in PIE are also rendered with a β in Greek?

for example, Classical Greek kymbē (bowl) vs. Latin "cambio" or English "hump"?

The answer is very simple, because both the *b inherited from PIE and the *b derived from Mycenean *gw were rendered as *v in Greek. It's also clear that this development occured after the Classical period.

Also, bear in mind that the Latin letter "B" ultimately derives from Greek Beta, which in turn derives from Phoenician Beth. It would make no sense what so ever if the value in Greek would have been /v/.

it is impossible that non vowels change since if then connection of ancient Grammar does not work

You are very wrong here. Germanic languages had multiple consonant shifts. The Romance languages had multiple consonant shifts. Why should the Greek language somehow be magically immune when it clearly wasn't?

Regarding Christianity, you know that the New Testament wasn't written until the late 1st / early 2nd century AD, and Christianity didn't become a mainstream religion in the Roman Empire until the 4th century AD.

Also, if we go back to Mycenean, it does make sense for Qa/Qe/Qi etc. to represent both *kw and *gw because they are the unvoiced and voiced versions of the same sound.

If you (incorrectly) assume that Mycenean was pronounced just like modern Greek, why would they use the same syllabic signs to write *p and *v? That makes absolutely no sense.

The only way this works out is that it was *gw in Mycenean, *b in Classical Greek, and *v in modern Greek.
 
Well, let me ask you then, why is it then that words which include *b in PIE are also rendered with a β in Greek?

for example, Classical Greek kymbē (bowl) vs. Latin "cambio" or English "hump"?

The answer is very simple, because both the *b inherited from PIE and the *b derived from Mycenean *gw were rendered as *v in Greek. It's also clear that this development occured after the Classical period.

Also, bear in mind that the Latin letter "B" ultimately derives from Greek Beta, which in turn derives from Phoenician Beth. It would make no sense what so ever if the value in Greek would have been /v/.



You are very wrong here. Germanic languages had multiple consonant shifts. The Romance languages had multiple consonant shifts. Why should the Greek language somehow be magically immune when it clearly wasn't?

Regarding Christianity, you know that the New Testament wasn't written until the late 1st / early 2nd century AD, and Christianity didn't become a mainstream religion in the Roman Empire until the 4th century AD.

Also, if we go back to Mycenean, it does make sense for Qa/Qe/Qi etc. to represent both *kw and *gw because they are the unvoiced and voiced versions of the same sound.

If you (incorrectly) assume that Mycenean was pronounced just like modern Greek, why would they use the same syllabic signs to write *p and *v? That makes absolutely no sense.

The only way this works out is that it was *gw in Mycenean, *b in Classical Greek, and *v in modern Greek.

That is what I arque,

All Greek Linguists consider Mycenean as a pre-proto Greek
But Greek is after Hellenic and Hellanas river, (land of Driopes)

I am not arque that Mycenean might have different sound, I am arque about how certain these sounds are,
as symbols and sounds.
consider if β was beta the ancient pray to sun does existin alphabet,
if a is alef then we lose the Αλ φα βη τα γα μα δε ελ τα εψ ιλων etc

in case that βη order of virb βαινω was b or beth or beta then same virb in Latin should also be Beni and not Veni, although in English we see go -went so w->V
if you also compare the other words of inner Greek I gave and the example Vim-Via etc
you realise that w is shifted or Drop to V in both, or 3 including Germanic,

W in Greek is shifted either to Γ or β (v) as the rest,
Myceneans could have shifted to Γ so is possible to be K

My argue is that w-> B is wrong, but w->V is correct at least in Greek,
cases of clear B to become β(V) i do not deny,

simply I am certain and I believe you are that Greek non vowels have not changed from at least Koine,

it is like telling me that Latin of 100 Ad is not the latin we know today,

No matter you try to convice me, I believe that you also disagree that sounds change after a clear sound at Bibliotheques and schools and monasteries and so many readers and priests etc,

β was always V at least from attic and later,

about Archaic most Greek linguists tottaly agree as you say that we first time find a clear Hellenic language with its dialects,
although Archaic since attic we have big changes,

these changes stop after Attic and Hellenistic1 and only vowels change to hellenistic 2 and after,

so as sounds Greek is stable to ancient sounds, at least 2000 years,
either that suits or not that is fact,
the case of b->V might happened from 1200 - 450 BC or even to 100 BC
but the case of w->V or w->Γ happened much before, probably the time you mention, 1200 - 900 BC

But not from w->B even qw->B qw-> should go either Γ and after Κ ΚΚ ΓΓ
or Σβ and then β ββ
in fact consider that the Bulls shit is Σβωνεα (κοπρος) Svonea and milk is Γαλα ( Ι still don't know origin But I believe means either peacefull either white, although you gave me an idea of qwοus ->Γ )
 
The Lemnean stele

in the lemnean Stele we find the word AVIS (years)

the greek word for year is etos but the word for a complete circle of life is βιος vios
now the word entered as lingua franga to science as Bio-logy

the same mistake that happened in Latin with Bassilca etc
happened again with Biology

except if in lemnean stele the written is not avis but Abis

the co-existance of b and v in Greek is obvious
many older words with common or not root word with Greek β may have Latin V
but most loans have Latin Β
the problem is that Greeks may transform B to β
but all Greek words with β went as b to west
 
The Lemnean stele

in the lemnean Stele we find the word AVIS (years)

the greek word for year is etos but the word for a complete circle of life is βιος vios
now the word entered as lingua franga to science as Bio-logy

the same mistake that happened in Latin with Bassilca etc
happened again with Biology

except if in lemnean stele the written is not avis but Abis

the co-existance of b and v in Greek is obvious
many older words with common or not root word with Greek β may have Latin V
but most loans have Latin Β
the problem is that Greeks may transform B to β
but all Greek words with β went as b to west

Sorry, but you're wrong. What is written on the Lemnos Stelae is this:

"ζιϝαι αϝις σιαλχϝις μαραζμ αϝις αομαι"

"ziwai awis sialχwis marazm awis aomai"

( Note that Chi is actually written as Ψ and that Omicron actually represents Etruscan/Tyrsenian /u/ and not /o/. )

In otherwords, the letter Digamma, not Beta is used here to represent Etruscan/Tyrsenian "v". You can see it below (the line in question is the column on the far right):

Lemnos.jpg
 
exactly Digamma F W is connected with V and not with B Ancient Greek Βιος sound as Vios compapring Avis

you have just proved that F W -> V but in Greek V = B,

the Awis ->avis ->βιος,

thank you,
 
exactly Digamma F W is connected with V and not with B Ancient Greek Βιος sound as Vios compapring Avis

you have just proved that F W -> V but in Greek V = B,

the Awis ->avis ->βιος,

thank you,

No, you're wrong. the original sound of Beta was /b/. Had it already been /v/ at that time, the Lemnians would have used the letter Beta to transliterate the Tyrsenian /v/:

"αβις" instead of "αϝις"

Since this isn't the case, it is pretty clear that Greek Beta was pronounced as /b/ by the time that the Lemnos stelae was produced (6th century BC). The development we see in Greek is *gw > *b > *v, and in my opinion the development of *b > *v did not occur until after the Hellenistic period.
 

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