Anglo-saxon apartheid led to Germanic gene prevalence in Britain

I think Maciamo's research and opinions provide something considerably closer to reality. There is a Basque / Iberian genetic substratum in the British Isles, however, the Germanic tribes and Nordics made significant contributions as well. In any case, the English are hardly all Germanic.
 
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Nothing can be ruled in or out, as no-one knows.
- As Maciano points out, Germanic Y DNA is strongly regional in England; some extremely high, some low.

- Almost all place names in England are Anglo-Saxon in origin, as is the language - not Celtic. (The ‘Celts’ did not exist as a homogenous entity anyway. They were tribes that shared much in common culturally, but the term was coined in the early 18th century). One way or the other, the Germanic tribes dominated and established the core of English culture.

Genetically - as I understand it - the overwhelming majority of an individual's DNA/appearance is due to paternal/maternal ancestry of within 400-500 years. Every English person will have a mixture of DNA derived from our ancestral past. The Y haplogroup is a paternal 'signature' pointing to the origins of one's paternal line but does not describe the holistic entity of who we are.
 
You are right. I posted the topic from this BBC article 4 years ago. In the meantime I have written a summary of what is known of British genetics. It emerged that the pre-Germanic lineages are indeed much more common than was expected - around 40% of all lineages in England. But a strong east-west gradient does exist. In East Anglia and Yorkshire the percentage of Germanic Y-DNA exceeds 80%. Close to the Welsh border it can drop to under 20%.
There is a nice map on another page on Eupedia that shows this gradient.

I can't post a link, but here is how to see it.

Go to the 'Facts & Trivia' page from the top menu.
Under 'Maps of Europe', click the fifth one called 'Map of main ethnic groups in Europe'.
 
I think Maciamo's research and opinions provide something considerably closer to reality. There is a Basque / Iberian genetic substratum in the British Isles, however, the Germanic tribes and Nordics made significant contributions as well. In any case, the English are hardly all Germanic.

Er . . . uh, "Basque/Iberian substratum"?

And that is represented by what?
 

All seriously out-of-date material. The first two articles cite Oppenheimer and Sykes and rely on the discredited theory that R1b spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. Oppenheimer and Sykes relied on REALLY short haplotypes to say that the modern inhabitants of the British Isles are like Basques. We know now that's not really the case.

The last article dates from 2004 and deals with mtDNA. Even so, 2004 was an age ago in terms of the development of genetics.
 
All seriously out-of-date material. The first two articles cite Oppenheimer and Sykes and rely on the discredited theory that R1b spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. Oppenheimer and Sykes relied on REALLY short haplotypes to say that the modern inhabitants of the British Isles are like Basques. We know now that's not really the case.

The last article dates from 2004 and deals with mtDNA. Even so, 2004 was an age ago in terms of the development of genetics.
So, according to you, where does H1 and H3 originate and who spread it ??
 
All seriously out-of-date material. The first two articles cite Oppenheimer and Sykes and rely on the discredited theory that R1b spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. Oppenheimer and Sykes relied on REALLY short haplotypes to say that the modern inhabitants of the British Isles are like Basques. We know now that's not really the case.

The last article dates from 2004 and deals with mtDNA. Even so, 2004 was an age ago in terms of the development of genetics.

So ,what is your take? What research of substance exists that refutes the Basque / Iberian theory? If the genetic substratum of the British Isles is not Basque / Iberian, what is it then?
 
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So, according to you, where does H1 and H3 originate and who spread it ??

Everything I have read, including the most recent research, strongly suggests H1 and H3 are of Central Asian origin, spreading to Western Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.
 
Everything I have read, including the most recent research, strongly suggests H1 and H3 are of Central Asian origin, spreading to Western Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.
Yes, I know, I want him to answer, because he says this theory is outdated. The paleolithic Iberians spread the H1/H3 to western Europe after the glacial refuge.
 


Another study from 2005: High-resolution mtDNA evidence for the late-glacial resettlement of Europe from an Iberian refugium

It seems likely, on the basis of this evidence, that haplogroup H entered Europe not much more than ∼20,000?25,000 years ago, and dispersed rapidly to the southwest of the continent. Although this was at the peak of the last Ice Age, a passage into Europe at this time is not implausible from an archaeological perspective, since there is evidence for extensive contacts between people of the Badegoulian culture of east-central Europe and those of southwest Europe.

Indeed, it now seems likely that the west European Magdalenian culture had its roots in the Badegoulian, and not in the local Solutrean of the western glacial refugium. It is the Magdalenian culture that is seen to expand dramatically from the Iberian refugium from ∼15,000 years ago in the radiocarbon record for western Europe, although Europe was probably never completely depopulated during the LGM (Housley et al. 1997; Terberger and Street 2002; Gamble et al. 2004).


Haplogroup V was identified, on the basis of control-region sequences, as a likely marker of a human dispersal in Late Pleistocene Europe (Torroni et al. 1998). Higher phylogenetic resolution of the lineages concerned clarified the geographic pattern by distinguishing the more derived haplogroup V from its ancestor, pre-V, which could now be seen to display a quite distinct phylogeographic pattern (Torroni et al. 2001). Haplogroup pre-V appeared to have entered Europe from the east sometime around 20,000?25,000 years ago, at the time of the LGM. However, the diversity and frequency of the derived haplogroup V suggested that it had evolved from pre-V in western Europe, with its age suggesting an expansion from a glacial refuge in Iberia ∼15,000 years ago, accompanying the Magdalenian expansion.


It is clear that the phylogeographic patterns displayed by sub-haplogroups H1 and H3 both closely resemble that of haplogroup V. The star-like phylogenies, geographic distribution, and estimated ages of all three clades suggest that they all took part in a major expansion from southwest to northeast Europe ∼12,000?14,000 years ago. Between them H1 and H3 amount to around half of the haplogroup H samples in our coding-region database. They comprise ∼65% of haplogroup H lineages in Iberia, ∼46% in the northwest, ∼27% in central and eastern Europeans, and ∼5%?15% in the Near East/Caucasus, falling to zero in the Gulf. It is notable that the diversity does not fall within H1 moving from west to east, unlike the situation with haplogroup V (Torroni et al. 2001), but a rapid expansion within the time-frame of the Magdalenian would in fact not be expected to result in a west-east diversity gradient. The cline seen in haplogroup V diversities most likely has its explanation in more recent founder events in the east.


The remaining haplogroup H lineages present a more complex pattern. The explanation must include the evolution of haplogroup H from its ancestor haplogroup HV, probably in the vicinity of the Near East (Richards et al. 2000; Loogv?li et al. 2004), and subsequent founder events in Europe, seen in H*. Minor sub-clades found in both Europe and the Near East (H4, H7, and H13) may also have entered Europe around the LGM, and/or during later dispersals from the Near East, such as the Neo-lithic. H must have given rise to H1 and H3 in the western refuge (analogous to ancestral lineages within haplogroup pre-V giving rise to haplogroup V; Torroni et al. 2001), and itself appears very likely to have been partly redistributed alongside them by the late-glacial re-expansion, since an Atlantic European cluster clearly forms part of the H* phylogeny.

Several other minor sub-clades (H2, H5a, H6) also seem likely to have taken part in this process, and may also have evolved in western Europe: More data will be needed to trace their phylogeographic patterns more closely. Interestingly, however, the frequency profile of H5a suggests that, if indeed it has largely been distributed by late-glacial dispersals, this sub-haplogroup may trace a distinct dispersal route into central and eastern Europe. In contrast, H1 and H3 appear at least in part to have spread northwards fairly close to the Atlantic coastline, into the British Isles.


The mtDNA evidence therefore correlates well with Y-chromosome evidence for late-glacial expansions from a south-west European refugium (Semino et al. 2000; Rootsi et al. 2004). It indicates that the major demographic signal in the modern European mtDNA pool is the result of the expansion of hunter-gatherer populations at the end of the Palaeolithic, although this has not entirely erased the traces of earlier processes.
 
All seriously out-of-date material. The first two articles cite Oppenheimer and Sykes and rely on the discredited theory that R1b spent the last Ice Age in Iberia. Oppenheimer and Sykes relied on REALLY short haplotypes to say that the modern inhabitants of the British Isles are like Basques. We know now that's not really the case.


It's wise to ignore these few stupid cyber low esteem Spaniards with inferiority complex who now thirst for kinship with the people of British Isles to distant themselves from ( or invalidate ) 20% genetic tie to Middle Eastern race ( Moors - Jews - Phoenecians - other ancient Semite people ) :rolleyes:

I have met one of them at an anthro-forum,he even confessed to Spain has the LOWEST STATUS in the EU :LOL:

So far,no British or anyone of Germanic stock desires strong kinship with them :LOL:
 
Thank you Michael. Nice to see that some intelligent people are still on this thread.
 
So ,what is your take? What research of substance exists that refutes the Basque / Iberian theory? If the genetic substratum of the British Isles is not Basque / Iberian, what is it then?

Certainly some people spent the LGM in Iberia. My point is they weren't R1b of any kind. The R1b in Western Europe is overwhelmingly R1b1b2 of various kinds, predominantly either U106+ and its subclades or P312+ and its subclades. None of them is old enough to have been in Iberia or anywhere else during the LGM.

Various studies of R1b1b2 variance show that R1b1b2 is oldest in SW Asia and spread to Europe from there, probably during the Neolithic Period or perhaps the Bronze Age.

http://tinyurl.com/yhc9moz

I think the y-haplogroup in Iberia during the LGM was I2a (P37.2+). I wasn't commenting on mtDNA.

By the way, I am not trying to distance myself from the Spanish and the Portuguese. Obviously, since most of the men are R1b1b2 of one kind or another, we're related. I have even contemplated retiring in Spain in the future. I also try to recruit men of Iberian descent for the R-L21 Plus Project (as you know full well, since I have tried to recruit you more than once via private messages).
 
Certainly some people spent the LGM in Iberia. My point is they weren't R1b of any kind. The R1b in Western Europe is overwhelmingly R1b1b2 of various kinds, predominantly either U106+ and its subclades or P312+ and its subclades. None of them is old enough to have been in Iberia or anywhere else during the LGM.

Various studies of R1b1b2 variance show that R1b1b2 is oldest in SW Asia and spread to Europe from there, probably during the Neolithic Period or perhaps the Bronze Age.

http://tinyurl.com/yhc9moz

I think the y-haplogroup in Iberia during the LGM was I2a (P37.2+). I wasn't commenting on mtDNA.

By the way, I am not trying to distance myself from the Spanish and the Portuguese. Obviously, since most of the men are R1b1b2 of one kind or another, we're related. I have even contemplated retiring in Spain in the future. I also try to recruit men of Iberian descent for the R-l21 Plus Project (as you know full well, since I have tried to recruit you more than once via private messages).
We were not talking about R1b but mtDNA H1 & H3. All scientists agree that the Franco-Cantabrian was a refuge for the peoples who spread these haplogroups to all western Europe.
 
I don't think anyone here was talking about R1b but mtDNA H1 & H3. All scientists agree that the Franco-Cantabrian was a refuge for the peoples who spread these haplogroups to all western Europe.

Could be. I haven't really studied the spread of mtDNA H of any kind. I am U5 on the mtDNA side (probably U5a of some kind). I have one match, from Poland, and that's it. (y)

It could be that H of various kinds spread from Iberia with whatever kind of I2 is found at low frequencies in the British Isles.
 
what is a meth state?

The Mexican troll shows the State of Oregon as his location. Oregon I believe has the highest level of meth addiction in the U.S., with high production as well. Oregon is a beautiful state with great people but there are many seriously sick meth addicts there.
 
Everything I have read, including the most recent research, strongly suggests H1 and H3 are of Central Asian origin, spreading to Western Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge.
Haplogroup H is central asian, but H1 and H3 (the most frequent in Europe) are european origin.
 

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