Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2

how yes no said:

@Garick
idea about link between Berbers and Albanians is interesting...

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Zenati said:

E1b1b1 is indeed the Berber modal haplotype and does indeed originate from the horn of Africa, Ethiopia or Yemen.

But this haplotype has spread all around the Mediterranean sea during the neolithic agricultural revolution. In fact it is the only Y haplotype fund all around the Mediterranean.

And the time of its' expansion the Berbers were not Berbers yet :grin:.

Please post the words that are similar in Berber and Albanian, I gonna show em to my Berber speaking friends (my Berber is quite poor because my Zenete ancestors have been thoroughly arabized).

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iapetoc said:

about the pelasgians i strongly dissagree with the albanian theory,
pelasgian were from cycledetic civilization
the cycladetic gave 4 minor aeolian ionian minoan and pelasgian
the before cycladetic were arcadians lellekes lokroi argeans aetoloi etc pelasgian were the western ionic- attico thessalian J2, the ionic were the minor asia J2 the aeolians were the isslands and near thrace J2 and minoan was the south J2 crete
that theory comes a rich man that wrote a book with wich everybody laughs ,
cause he insists that albanians speak ancient greek and greeks speaks ethiopean.
the truth is that albanians came down in 1040 and since then more come

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For all of you who expressed an interest about this, the topic is set:

Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

iapetoc said:

I disagree with your aproach to silk road,
allthough it is based very well asumed and have a basis
I personaly believe that
SLAVONIZATION HAS TO DO WITH THE AMBER TRADE ROADS
....also the road of spices mainly the arabian trade the obsidian road, the ivory road etc.

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whole idea is that Serians tried to make universal trade route by connecting China (silk) and India (spices) in arc, and connected arc to Europe (amber) via Caucasus and Asia minor and to Africa (ivory) via Levant and Serians of Red sea.. that is idea based on what spread of haplogroup I gives coupled with quote from Seneca....

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

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Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html



Serians of Red sea are known as merchants:

The Sabaeans, like the other Yemenite kingdoms of the same period, were involved in the extremely lucrative spice trade, especially frankincense and myrrh.[2]

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans

Btw. the area of main influence of Serians seems to be between Red sea on south and Black sea on north, Balkans on west and China and India on east

Note that Red sea = south sea, Black sea = north sea, as Iranian steppe people (Sarmatians) and Slavic people had color scheme for sides of the world in which red = south, black = north, white = west
(white Serbia = west Serbia, white Croatia = west Croatia, Belorus = white Russia = west Russia)
as a side note, strange is the name of Montenegro (Crna Gora) meaning Black mountain, which indicates originally it was location north of settlement area of Slavic/Iranian people who gave it its name that is preserved till today...this does not fit with theory of 7th century settlement of Serbs...



anyway, Serians/Seres/Serve of Serica in north-west China are also merchants

"From these the course (of the shore) makes a bend and trends to the coast line which faces the east. That part which adjoins the Scythian promontory is first all impassable from snow ; then an uncultivated tract occupied by savages. These tribes are the Cannibal Scythians and the Sakas, severed from one another by a region where none can dwell because of the number of wild animals. Another vast wilderness follows, occupied also by wild beasts, reaching to a mountain called Thabis which overhangs the sea. A long way from that the ridge of Taurus rises. The Seres come between the two; a race eminent for integrity, and well known for the trade which they allow to be transacted behind their backs, leaving their wares in a desert spot" (Pomponius Mela, De Situ Orbis, III, 7).

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce;

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Siraces/Serboi of Caspian higlhlands are also merchants

They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]
...
They and the Aorsi were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold.[2]
...
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces
thus, they migrated from Caspian highlands to Kuban region

The Byzantine Emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitos, in his Book Of Ceremonies, calls the Croats and Serbs "Krevatas and Sarban"[citation needed], who were located between Alania and Tsanaria. Ṣārbān is also the name of a Pashtun tribe in Afghanistan, who are believed to be - at least in part - of Scythian descent or According to legend,Pashtun people, ethnic Afghans traditionally claim descent from the Lost Tribes....

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http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Theories_on_the_origin_of_the_Serbs

As, I have shown many times Pashtun Sarbans match perfectly spread of haplogroup I in Avganistan and Pakistan...

Tsanaria is northwest part of MtskhetaMtianeti region in Georgia


Alania is Ossetia


this is all in very close proximity of the Kuban region... Kuban region is south most part of Russia next to Black sea - imediatelly above Abkhazia on map above....

Btw. area between Tzanaria and Alania would be somewhere around north Ossetia... and this is half way between Caspian homeland of Siraces/Serboi and Kuban area to where they have moved in 4th century...

The Russians originally called the Ossetians Yas (ясы).
In Late Antiquity, records became much more diffuse and the Iazyges generally ceased to be mentioned as a tribe.
...
The Ossetians descend from the Alans–Sarmatians, a Scythian tribe.[12]
....
At its height, Alania was a centralized monarchy with a strong military force and benefited from the Silk Road.
...
Iron and Digor in the north became what is now North Ossetia-Alania, under Russian rule from 1767. Iron dialect is the literary and written language of the Ossetian language.
Digor in the west came under the influence of the neighbouring Kabard people who introduced Islam. Today the two main Digor districts in North Ossetia are Digora district or Digorskiy rayon (with Digora as its centre) and Irafskiy rayon or Iraf district (with Chikola as its centre). Digora district is Christian while some parts of Iraf district are Muslim. The dialect spoken in Digor part of North Osetia is Digor, the most archaic form of Ossetian language.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetians

according to
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf

town of Ardon in north Ossetia has 32% of I and town of Digora has 13% of I while the rest of sampled Ossetians in both north and south Ossetia have 0% of haplogroup I


Ardonsky district in north Ossetia




all this clearly indicates that Serbs and Croats are likely to have originally been haplogroup I (I2a2) carriers.

The question is in what direction did they spread originally...did they recently come from Afganistan and Caucasus, or was spread other way around... All we know is that Seneca mentions Serians who live in arc of Serians from China to India which matches Pashtun Sarbans, the Serians who live among Sarmatians of Caspian highlands which matches Serboi/Siraces, he also talks about Serians rulling over Red sea which we can easily identify in kingdom of Sheba/Sabeans, however so far there is no genetic link to haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia...

and he also mention the ones living around Danube and rulling over Scythians (Dacians in other translations of same text)...thus neighbours of Dacians and living around Danube...this could be Scordisci...

The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria,Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor[10].

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.html



besides Scordisci there is another Celtic tribe with tribal name similar to Serians and Serbs

The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi






now obviously there is issue of language...
it seems that Sabeans spoke with Arabic language, Scordisci and Serdi with Celtic...
and for Serians of northwest China is written

These people, they said, exceeded the ordinary human height, had flaxen hair, and blue eyes, and made an uncouth sort of noise by way of talking, having no language of their own for the purpose of communicating their thoughts.

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(Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


what comes to my mind is Slavic word for Germans (also haplogroup I carriers), which literary translates as "mute, not able to speak"....so, perhaps haplogroup I originally did not have very developed language...

on other hand, hm, having no language of their own, might mean that they communicated in front of strangers only in foreign languages...

that would be a good survival tactics in ancient times - do not speak own language in front of strangers, as if language is secret to them they cannot infiltrate into your nation, and thus cannot find out e.g. about plans of wars or preparations for them...

or their language was proto-indo-european, so it was, by others who spoke PIE derived languages, seen as foreigners speaking their own language ...as in weird serbian saying "speak serbian so that the whole world understands you"....after all area of influence of Serians (and likely of I2a2) does cover very large part of indo-european zone... and together with I2a1 and I2b1 it covers west and south Europe as well...

I never knew the name of the Celtic tribe that settled in Thrace until now, only that it appeared to have been part of the La Tene migrations. I also think that the Sciordisi were Celts.
After leaving Italy following one of the defeats that they had inflicted on the Romans, the Cimbri in turn were defeated by Sciordisi. That caused the Cimbri to embark on one of their longer jaunts.

hmm interesting idea,

the amber was the most expensive even more than silk before and at crusades time,
the amber of baltic sea was something that vikings use to trade, the normannd -west viking desent was near 800 1-2 centuries after slavonic desent south,
the viking invasion in ucraine same time,
the huns invasion was before and after slavonic desent south,

the time that happens slavonization its more like a return back and south

silk was more valuable after 1000-1100 AD and especially at 1200 AD,
THE ARABIAN TRADE WAS SAME TIME WITH AMBER,
arabs trade spises from south yemen, east africa zanzibar, and india
1. to west africa marroco and spain,
2. to byzantium
3 to italy though palaistine-lebanon
4 to north via black sea
5 to east iran,

when crusades started germans carried baltic AMBER as a valuable trade or gifts

Byzantines left trade inside their region but they wanted taxes,
the double road to Wienn proves that,
1 road was from baltic to ucraine and georgia and then to azer or turkmen
2 road was from wienn via donau to romania (east roman speakers) and then south to trebizond (east roman speakers) to armenia.
the byzantino-russian wars at crimea (ucraine) were about taxes mainly on fur

The furs merchant made strongly by rus via volga river and uralofinn or vikings in the east
and via normands in the west,
according the byzantines, Ucraine-Russ were from west north(Vikings) and not slavians
according byzantines the slavs invasion came 1rst and then chistinization and the name serbs of those that pass south donau after, and not the above,
the possibilty that serb is an inner or an outer name, i can't tell
example inner name Hellenes outer name greeks,

NOW FOR YOUR APPROACH,
the possibility that serbs came from caucasus makes a point only if albanian came also from caukasus,
CAUSE NEXT TO SERBOI IN CAUCASUS WAS ALBANOPOLIS (today chechenia)
the possibility that they came both same time !!!!!! IS VERY INTERESTING

but all these has nothing to do with my questions
cause that I wonder is
1. which is thracian DNA the e-V13 or the I2a2?
2. IF I2a2 was Thracian, were proto-slavonic people ???
3. the slavian dna is I2a2 or R?

i also have to report that linguistica there is a big coonection among
shqipteria and ishqeria

Ossetians have highest % of G haplogroup beside Shappsughs 83,5%
What happened to 60-70 % of Ossetians of G2a haplogroup.
It seems I haplogroup detached from them to come to Serbia or Albania.

Ossetians believe that Serbs and Croats were just names of Alan iranian speaking tribes with warrior elite that merged with People from todays Poland and Germany creating White Serbia and Croatia. There were few of real Alans just like in Sparta where they were outnumbered 10:1 by the Helots (only few Spartans lived to reproduce, and today there are no more then 1% decending from them). So Ossetians claim, Serbs and Croats just inherted new style of fight and new names which they brought to todays Serbia and Croatia. Alan warrior elite, as they say, merged to existing R1a and I2b to become proto Serbians and proto Croatians.

This theory seems possible and some univesities teach this verion as most probable.


THE SARMATIANS were not a unified people, but rather a number of groups of nomad peoples of similar stock, who wandered generally westwards over the Eurasian steppe - the vast corridor of grasslands, hundreds of miles wide and some 5,000 miles long, extending from China to the Hungarian Plain. They spoke an Iranian language similar to that of the Scythians, and closely related to Persian.

Alans differed from other Sarmatians and they were probably mostly G people from Caucasusand todays Ossetians who are 60-70% G2a call themselves Alans. Ossetia is also known as Alania. Schythians were mostly R1a.

Todays Caucasus have somewhat distorted picture with Russians coming in Caucassus 1870 onwards and settling with Ossetians and in Circassia after they expeled 2 million Circassians to ottoman lands.

Just like first Russians that run away from Tzarist policies to live free, coming gradually from 1500 to Kuban and accepting Circassian dance music and a famous horses, garb and a way of life becoming known as Kuban Cossacks.

I also have a problem with Slavic laguage since Alans were iranian speaking like todays Ossetians.
This also speaks in favor of Polish Ukrainian stock that assimilated a few iranian speaking Alans.

I am aware of Serbian and Croatian theories that they link to Caucasus or Iran. They could probably be from Caspian sea planes not mountains (if they were Schythians or Sarmatians) or eastern part of Caucasus mountains together with Albanians, since they share I2b.

Ossetians have highest % of G haplogroup beside Shappsughs 83,5%
What happened to 60-70 % of Ossetians of G2a haplogroup.
It seems I haplogroup detached from them to come to Serbia or Albania.

Ossetians believe that Serbs and Croat were just names of Alan iranian speaking tribes with warrior elite that merged with People from todays Poland and Belarus creating White and Red Serbia and Croatia. There were few of real Alans just like in Sparta where they were outnumbered 10:1 by the Helots (only few Spartans lived to reproduce, and today there are no more then 1% decending from them). So Ossetians claim, Serbs and Croats just inherted new style of fight and new names which they brought to todays Serbia and Croatia. Alan warrior elite, as they say, merged to existing R1a and I2b2 to become protoSerbians and proto Croatians.

This theory seems possible and some univesities teach this verion as most probable.

Alans differed from other Sarmatians and they were probably mostly G people from Caucasus. Schythians were mostly R1a.

I am aware of Serbian and Croatian theories that they link to Caucasus or Iran. They could probably be from Caspian sea planes not mountains (if they were Scithyans or Sarmatians) or eastern part of Caucasus mountains together with Albanians, since they share I2b.

Why am I always sending these double posts?

I tried to put some pictures and links and it came out like a double post.

Stupid me, I didn`t realize that I need 10 posts to put some links

iapetoc said:

i also have to report that linguistica there is a big coonection among
shqipteria and ishqeria

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iapetoc
Haplogroup us unmistakably leads to the place of origin, in the case of Albanians it is the E haplogroup and the land of Ethiopia/Somalia.

We can trace a movement of people across Sudan and Egypt and the bifurcation into two branches.

One branch of the tribes went to the West and was spread throughout North Africa.

Another branch of the tribes came to the Middle East.

Albanian people belong to the branch that has come across Anatolia to the Balkans.

There are some assumptions that an E branch from East Africa through the Middle East came to the Caucasus and later from the Caucasus through Anatolia to the Balkans.

But this is unsubstantiated evidence and one of the problems is that today there is no E haplogroup expressed in the Caucasus.

Links Albanians, Berbers, and the other E carriers of Sudan and Egypt is indisputable, and we can follow and connect the similarities in language, dress, customs and so on.

The attempts to connect Albanians with Caucasus are theoretically possible, if we assume that the E populations ranged from East Africa to the Caucasus and then there came to the Balkans, but we are entering a difficult area of speculation and very difficult verifiable statements.

You can read the topic:

Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26169

iapetoc said:

NOW FOR YOUR APPROACH,
the possibility that serbs came from caucasus makes a point only if albanian came also from caukasus,
CAUSE NEXT TO SERBOI IN CAUCASUS WAS ALBANOPOLIS (today chechenia)
the possibility that they came both same time !!!!!! IS VERY INTERESTING

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I never said Serbs came from Caucasus...

I just notice the obvious: Seneca speaks of Serians in areas of Europe, northwest China, Saudi Arabia and Caucasus... those Serians are clearly identifiable as Sarve/Seres in northwest China, as Serboi/Siraces of Caucasus, and as Sheba/Sabeans in Saudi Arabia

...it is not clear who they match in Europe...perhaps Scordisci, Serdi...( Serdi might be just thrachanized version of name Scordisci as Serdi are Celtic and arrived to Thrace from area of Scordisci, and knowing that Greeks also used Sclaveni with c after S of Slavs..Serdi might easily be same as Scordisci...now it is mighty strange that those two together match pretty well location of Serbs)

Now my question is whether there is and what is relation of today Serbs to those Serians... So, I pinpoint that:

1) Serbs are called Sarbans by Byzantine emperor and identified by him to be the same as Sarbans who lived in area that is in fact in between Caucasian settlement of Serboi and later settlement of Siraces (who are thought to be identical to Serboi)..as Serboi are Seneca's Serians of Caucasus, this is indication that Serbs are Serians...

2) Serbs are around 50% haplogoup I

3) Pasthun Sarbans fits perfectly in arc of Serians from China to India and are distinguished from surroundings by haplogroup I (this distinction talks clearly of their settlement there from other areas)..Pashtun Sarbans have identical name with name that Byzantine emperor used for Serbs - this is again indication that Serbs are Serians...

4) Sarbans of Caucaus mentioned by Byzantine emperor as same people as Serbs are likely responsible for haplogroup I pocket in Ardon among Ossetians.....

5) same emperor historian (btw. I do wonder how trustworthy is history written by politicians) is the only historian who recorded "arrival" of Serbs to Balkan...his historical record is in fact made several centuries after actual times of this supposed movement...he claims that Serbs came to Balkan from land of white Serbia or Boika (likely Bohemia) where they according to him have always lived...and that initially they all settled in single town in Greece Macedonia, but than changed their minds and went to north... in fact Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2 and nearby are Sorbs... but as Serians are quite widespread over the Euroasia why would it be hard to imagine that small group of Serians from Bohemia settled among Serians of Balkan....


As you see, I do not claim that proto-Serbs came from Caucasus or from Afghanistan, as it is in fact much more likely that they settled Caucasus and Asia from Europe, as haplogroup I according to all relevant scientists seems to have been in Europe already in paleolithic period, while for example E-V13 and J2 that are dominant in Greeks came to Europe only in neolithic era...

besides we can see that Pasthun Sarbans are differing from surroundings by haplogroup I, obviously showing that haplogroup I is not native there... following its trace it is more or less clear that it have likely came to Afghanistan from Europe via Asia minor...





As for Albanians, Caucasian Albania does match a hotspot of E1b1b in Caucasus (see the maps bellow)... but E1b1b is clearly not native there... so Caucasian Albanians were the far most spread of Albanians from somewhere on south... whether Balkan Albanians came from Caucasus Albania or from Asia minor is hard to say by genetics... I do think they may origin from Dardanians who are possibly responsible for hotspot of E1b1b in area of Troad in Asia minor... again there might have been settlement around 1040 of some Albanians from Caucasian Albania (via Sicily) among Albanians of Balkan....Albanians /Arbanians (as their name is in medieval Serb documents)/Arberesche (as they are called in Italy) are in my opinion likely to be offspring of Dardanias of Balkan... for me Arbanian and Dardanian are similar words, as Berber and Arber(esche) are...

so, this is a spread from south that divided in part that settled north Africa and part that went up the Levant to Asia minor... a wave also reached Caucasus resulting in Caucasian Albania

how yes no said:

As for Albanians, Caucasian Albania does match a hotspot of E1b1b in Caucasus (see the maps bellow)... but E1b1b is clearly not native there... so Caucasian Albanians were the far most spread of Albanians from somewhere on south... whether Balkan Albanians came from Caucasus Albania or from Asia minor is hard to say by genetics... I do think they may origin from Dardanians who are possibly responsible for hotspot of E1b1b in area of Troad in Asia minor... again there might have been settlement around 1040 of some Albanians from Caucasian Albania (via Sicily) among Albanians of Balkan....Albanians /Arbanians (as their name is in medieval Serb documents)/Arberesche (as they are called in Italy) are in my opinion likely to be offspring of Dardanias of Balkan... for me Arbanian and Dardanian are similar words, as Berber and Arber(esche) are...

so, this is a spread from south that divided in part that settled north Africa and part that went up the Levant to Asia minor... a wave also reached Caucasus resulting in Caucasian Albania

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how yes no
And word "Dardania" is at the root Berber word with the true meanings of certain.

I can set in the theme about Berbers and Albanians with the source.

Areas with increased frequencies of haplogroup I can easily be matched to locations of Serboi/Serbi in Caspian area and to Kuban region in Black sea area to which Siraces migrated from the Caspian area......

Siraces

They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]....They were the most hellenized of the Sarmatians, and maintained good relations with the Bosporans.[2].....They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

So you agree with my point of view,

1 serdi or scordici or Boii(bohemia) possible proto-serbs were celts or thracian, that migrated to north of dunab in late roman times or early christians time, and came south under push of baltic slavs at amber time trade but slavonized,
2 Or the slavs that pass donau were a small migration in number but their influence was bigger and slavonize locals all croats bosnian serbs, and even game them names from caucas origin,
now about thracians or celts,
were they share the same DNA were they same lingua?
the chance that thracians speak slavonic?

iapetoc said:

So you agree with my point of view,

serdi or scordici or Boii(bohemia) possible proto-serbs were celts or thracian, that migrated to north of dunab in late roman times or early christians time, and came south under push of baltic slavs at amber time trade but slavonized, or the slavs that pass donau were a small migration in number but their influence was bigger and slavonize locals all croats bosnian serbs, and even game them names from caucas origin,
now about thracians or celts,
were they share the same DNA were they same lingua?
the chance that thracians speak slavonic?

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yes, that is possible
proto-Serbs could have been Celtic...
we have same thing with related Veneti who are known to have been Celtic in Brittany

hm, lol, to imagine Serbs as Celtic, hear some Celtic inspired music from Serbia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEt2XdN_TbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0IbWSPUJa8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osS0lqs9JV8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bddw4ZmDRVQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vq69RXpun5Q&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whnrq5u-2kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKiIpFN4ufw

then we agree that thracian were celts, since proto serbs were celts(although cultura druga), so we have a common sprink of I2a2 in dalmatia, and a possible music influence in womans polyphonic voice, example
here is some east celt music

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51ROvTlKQNg&feature=related
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH1I3UZiUz8&feature=related
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VErP_lmSTJs&feature=related
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9G7m-QSp8U&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GggkMXk-io&feature=related

and the last special due to instrument
http://http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czV18fCr_rc&feature=related

I agree with you in a point,
the fact that serbi krevatas and albania names are also found in Aimos peninsula (only bosna misses) , as also same times Iberian (georgia) Emperror in Byzantine,Has nothing to due with Haplogroups,
the probality is that given either by slavs to older celtic tribes of balkans, either by Con/polis Iberian emperrors,
about dardania arba or alba, the sicily arbers it is proved that there From greek peloponese at ottomans empire, That is fact and not from there to albania,
also notice that geneticaly west albania is full of J2 when dardania is full of E-V13,

how yes no said:

yes, that is possible
proto-Serbs could have been Celtic...
we have same thing with related Veneti who are known to have been Celtic in Brittany

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The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.

The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].The Scordisci were found during different timelines in Illyria,Thrace and Dacia sometimes splitting into more than one group like the Scordisci Major and the Scordisci Minor[10].
Andras Mocsy clarifies their ethnic character, suggesting that they were not a Celtic tribe per se, but a "Celtic political creation"[11]. They were formed after 278 BC, as some of the survivors of the Celtic invasions of Greece settled the abovementioned region[12] imposing themselves as a thin, yet powerful, ruling class. Rather quickly, they were subsumed by the numerically superior natives, although the Celtic tribal name was retained, albeit the Illyricized version Scordistae[13] was often used after the 2nd century BC[14] According to onosmatic evidence, Scordiscan settlements to the east of the Morava river were Thracianized[15].
Extensive La Tene type finds, of local production, are noted in Pannonia as well as northern Moesia Superior, attesting to the concentration of Celtic settlements and cultural contacts. However, such finds south of the Sava river are scarce[16].

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Scordisci have sphere of influence all the way to Slovakia...just step further is Bohemia with Celtic Boii....Scordisci are assumed to be Celts who settled area after Celtic attempt to spread to Greece...now we know that in that spread the tribe that entered Thrace were Serdi... but could origin of spread have been Celtic Boii?

According to Byzantine emperor who wrote down about settlement of Serbs several centuries after such a supposed settlement took place

"The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt.

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http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...or of the East)"&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

now proto-Serbs originally dwelt in Bohemia, but Bohemia is named after Celtic Boii as this tribe has originally dwelt there... can proto-Serbs be same as Boii?






if we go back to the motive of white cross on red background..it is motive shared between Denmark, Swiss and Serbia...(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362715&postcount=101)

Cimbri could be the origin of motive in Denmark....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...300px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png

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Most ancient sources categorize the Cimbri as a Germanic tribe,[13] but some ancient authors include the Cimbri among the Celts.[14]
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The known Cimbri chiefs have names that look Celtic, including Boiorix (which may mean "King of the Boii" or, more literally, "King of Strikers"), Gaesorix (which means "Spear King"), and Lugius (which may be named after the Celtic god Lugus), although this may not mean that they are Celtic as the elements could work in Germanic[19]. ....
Jean Markale[21] wrote that the Cimbri were associated with the Helvetii, and more especially with the indisputably Celtic Tigurini. These associations may link to a common ancestry, recalled from two hundred years previous, though they may not. Henri Hubert[22] states "All these names are Celtic, and they cannot be anything else". Some authors take a different perspective[23]. For example, Peter S. Wells[24] states that the Cimbri "are certainly not Celts".

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

let's pay attention to those king names... all 3 seems to correspond to tribal names..

1) first king carries name that means king of Boii....could it be that Cimbri and Boii are the same, as chief of Cimbri carries the name king of Boii?

2) second king is king of spears.... while I explained that word Serb and some other tribal names may be related to word "spear"...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48

3) third known king of Cimbri is Lugus...which resembles Lugii who are a tribe in east Germany and Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lugii), and later Lusatians or Wends or Sorbs (still called "Luzicki Srbi" in Serbia as opposed to "Srbi" which is name for Serbs)


now, note that Cimbri are often associated with Helvetti, same as Serbs are associated with "Hrvati" (name for Croats in Serbian and Croatian)

makes one think, doesn't it?
Scordisci, Serdi, Boii, Cimbri, Helvetti disappeared from history...or did they?

could it be that people who origin from them are in this audience:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whnrq5u-2kU

how yes no

Just when I started searching for the origin of Serbs (Srba), something similar to the so called "Iranian theory" by Croats, you posted several very interesting posts, actually, what I was looking for.

When I'll have more than 10 posts (for links), will post (If I can here) about "Iranian theory" of Croats, that is about their name origin, symbols, etc. I think this could be good to compare along Serbian one.
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how yes no said:

if we go back to the motive of white cross on red background..it is motive shared between Denmark, Swiss and Serbia...

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As far, as I know, Serbian coat of arms and the flag is not that old, but actually more a copy than a original idea. If I'm wrong correct me since I'm quiet new to Serbian history.

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It would be (relatively) much more interesting when genetic research(s) wouldn't show that much difference of Haplogroup I2 (Y-DNA) among the Serbs. It varies too much.

If the Croats and Serbs came here to drive the Avars, Slavs, or others, it may be that they did not take them as slaves or totally conquered, but rather some did "married" along, so one % got here, or better to say, some Slavs became "Serbs" or "Croats". Possibility.

WhileothergenesandSlaviclanguagetook overwhen theywerenearthe Black Sea. Ifadisastermay haveoccurred, natural or social, withoutmuchtrouble fell under Slavic rule or not. Were forced take a new language or they had to learn the language to be able to communicate with them. If they might have been forced to take their (Slavic) culture someescapedandformedthe"White Croatia" and"White Serbia". There aremany reasonswhythey havewithin themselvesthe Slavicgenes. Itwillprobablyremainunknown, and it isn't so interesting.
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I think in some scientific research, Helvetti are taken as a version of the term for Croats or in Croatian language, Hrvati.

It's fun to learn.

Sorry, but it seems to me that some error occurred