I2a2 M423+

I think R1a was already there but not really organized...
thing is that Slavic languages are most similar to Iranian, Indian...
I explain it with idea that before Scythians split it in 2 parts there was R1a continum from India via Bactria and Sogdiana, next to Caspian lake all the way to Poland ..
this continuum kept language development synchronized with the one in India and Iran,
How did you keep the language synchronized through 4 thousand kilometers back then? Did they have satellite TV, or common language in schools? Even though Sanskrit or Iranian belong to the same family with Slavic, there was not much in common even 1500 years ago. What I mean is that they wouldn't be able to understand each other. The Slavic/Baltic split must have happened 3 000 years ago, Slavic/Sanskrit/Iranian probably 5-6 thousand.
Actually Baltic is closer related to Sanskrit than Slavic, you might better look for some common hg between Baltic and Iranian then.
 
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Sanskrit - Prenunciation: Samskrtam = self draw.

Sam skrtam in Macedonian slavic language (closest to Old church slavonic)
means self draw.

Macedonian slavic and Sanskrit have over 6000 similar, some are related words, and are similar in grammatical structure.

Sanskrit is a member of the Indo-Iranian sub-family of the Indo-European family of languages. Its closest ancient relatives are the Iranian languages Old Persian and Avestan. Within the wider Indo-European language family, Sanskrit shares characteristic sound changes with the Satem languages (particularly the Slavic and Baltic languages), and also with Greek.
 
from adriatic Veneti there was middle age Venetian republic...
they were earlier wave and were latinized and had different language than later waves of Veneti...
also from Veneti comes name Wends, which is alternative name of Sorbs
So, Sorbs still have that name, and till recently it was the name by which Germans were talking about all Slavs...
worth mentioning is that Serbs and Croats, while together might go under Sarmatians have their own ancient names... there are other I2 Sarmatians besides them... and Veneti might be one of them...
clue to that is that Vistula Veneti are first mentioned in history as Sarmatian Venedi who settled in Germania..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

tribes keep their names, but their language and culture can change
they also assimilate conquered tribes which can alter somewhat their genetical imprint...
Adriatic Veneti arrived to Europe before Vistula Veneti, and were latinized...their language and culture became alike other italics...
Vistula Veneti first were germanized than slavicized..
such changes of languages and culture are possible just by living next to some tribes since IE languages in distant past didnot differ as much as now
IE languages origin from iran where they were already spoken by haplogroups I, R1a, R1b, probably G2a as well... in fact more distant is language from the one spoken in Iran, more distant in time was the settlement of people carrying that language...
e.g. Slavic is most similar to iranian languages and is thus more recent cultural and linguistic wave... however there is R1a in Europe much older than that wave...

I am trying to solve puzzle by gathering pieces...if you have better clues you should share them and not just point out how you know better...

good link, very informative (if correct)
it shows that everywhere north of proto-Slavic was layer of Balts, and north of them layer of Fines, while south of them were Goths and Sarmatians,,,interestingly Sarmatians between Visigoths and Ostrogoths...

incorrect, arrival of Huns has no direct connection with I2a1 going to Sardinia...nor did they really depopulate large areas...
in fact, Roman empire was crumbling, and Suebs, Alans and Vandals used opportunity to conquer Iberian peninsula...
The Suebic, Alan and Vandal kingdoms in Gallaecia in Iberian peninsula were established around year 410, while Huns reach Panonia only around 400 and it takes decades to spread their kingdom far away into central and north Europe..
movements of people did last for some years...
So, in fact it was opposite from what you claim..Suebs,Alans and Vandals did not move cause they were afraid of Huns, but movement of Suebs, Vandals and Alans created lot of space in central Europe and allowed Huns to easily enter and create big empire...
some of I2a1 came to Sardinia only when Vandals were pushed out of Iberian peninsula by Visigoths which was much later...other I2a1 might have been there from ancient settlement waves that in fact gave name Sardinia similar to names of other carriers of haplogroup I (Suebi, Swedes, Sarbans, Serbs..)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
As you can see, subjected tribes were not rounded off, but became vasals that joined them in future conquests... that is how Hun empire spread until number of Huns in it became too little to maintain in charge of it...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
Preserved words of Huns have resemblance to Slavic and not to Turkic...
Huns might have been just another iranian tribe, as they are first recorded in area of Sarmatians...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huns
800px-Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png

Trajectory of Huns clearly indicates they have focused on attacking Roman empire and not on killing half of north Europe as you imagine... in fact, subjugated tribes typically joined them in further conquers... why on earth would they kill all potential sources of their soldiers and completely vacate most of north Europe as you envision...
Huns were tribal union, they would include subjugated tribes in it...

This is correct, e.g. Goths settled east Balkan and Gepids Panonia..
In Serbia additional source of I1 can be that Serbs came to Serbia from white Serbia that is most likely area of east Germany where Sorbs still carry the name of tribal union that was established there... there Serbs might have assimilated some I1 tribes...

you make many assumptions here......
you claim Venedes to be R1a and Sclavines to be R1a+I2a2 while I think it was in fact opposite...

no, they actually entered Panonia from Romania...
Bizantium bought them off, so they stopped attacking Byzantium and started a spread towards north...all the way to Baltic, than Byzantium used them against Slavs in Scythia minor...when they established empire (tribal union in which Slavic was lingua franca) helped by Byzantium, they turned against Byzantium...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars

yes, because now Byzantium was weakened by attacks of Avars
yes, that's correct... but in fact kingdom of Ostrogoths was major cause of movement of E-V13 from Dalmatia and Bosnia deeper into Byzantium
compare Ostrogoth kingdom with spread of frequence and variance of E-V13 and you will see it clearly
250px-Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png

ejhg2008249f4.jpg


Croats are mix of slavicized I2a2 Croats, R1a from Iran, from Slavs and previous R1a waves in Europe, I1 from Goths, R1b from Celts...
Serbs are mix of slavicized I2a2 Serbs, E-V13 from previous inhabitants, some R1a from iran, Slavs and previous R1a waves, I1 from Goths, some assimilated in east Germany and some perhaps was carried from their iranian homeland...

where exactly are those issues strongly contradicting things that I have stated, and where can you exactly claim that my assumptions are wrong and your correct?
main difference seems that you assume Veneti as R1a, and Sclavenoi as R1a and I2a2, while I believe it was opposite...
the reason I belive opposite is that we find I2a1 on place of ancient Veneti in Britanny, because we find I2a2 in north Italy where Adriatic Veneti lived...
Additional reason for my assumption is that Veneti are recorded in early history as Sarmatian tribe... than later as Germanic one, and in the very end as Slavic one... as I have already pinpointed haplogroup I1 is related to Germanic tribes and I2 dominantly to Serbs/Croat related Sarmatian tribes... some of I2 was merged in germanic tribes upon initial settlement of Sarmatian Veneti (and probably Vandals as well) in Germany...

right..
but you made more assumptions than me and did not try to relate your assumptions to genetics and tribal name continuity...

those are proto-Slavs...
but in 4th century R1a and I2a2 were already mixed and most Srmatians already slavicized (which is normal since for iranian tribes from late waves, Slavic was by far most similar language)
As I explained, I2 in Britain might be related to Veneti who lived in Britanny...this Veneti have arrived in previous wave of settlement... they were celticized with spread of La Tenne culture... reason to propose Veneti as source of I2 is that their historically attested location corresponds well to spread of M26 in Britanny.... similarly we have places with historically atteded Veneti name coupled with I2 north of Adriatic and around Vistula... for me this is clear indication of possible happenings...

With regard to I2a2 and the Veneti, I respectfully suggest that you are a little confused. You refer to I2a2 earlier, and above to the 'spread of M26 in Brittany'. Let me unpack this for you....

1] The SNP M26 is not associated with I2a2. It is associated with I2a1, according to ISOGG 2010. I2a1 was founded in Iberia.

2] As my friend Shetop says in a previous posting, the type of I2a2 found in Britain and Ireland is I2a2b, and it is positive for L161. It was probably founded in northern Germany, and is effectively absent in eastern Europe. It probably got to Germany as part of the LBK migrations from the Danube region. It probably was carried to Britain and Ireland by different 'waves' of people from pre-Celtic settlers, to Celts and to later Anglo-Saxons. There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b, and there is some continental membership across the north European plain, with German members currently predominating.

3] I do not think that the Veneti made any genetic impact on Britain. The Veneti would have carried the eastern 'Dinaric' variety of I2a2- I2a2a. It is absent in Britain and Ireland. As Shetop has cogently argued, this I2a2a-Dinaric was spread with the Slavic migrations. Despite having a common ancestor, I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric branch lines parted company between 12,000 and 13,000 years ago. All I2a2s are 'distant cousins' [as I jokingly refer to Shetop], but in truth I2a2a-Dinaric played no part in the genetic history of Britain and Ireland.

I hope this is helpful.
 
With regard to I2a2 and the Veneti, I respectfully suggest that you are a little confused. You refer to I2a2 earlier, and above to the 'spread of M26 in Brittany'. Let me unpack this for you....

1] The SNP M26 is not associated with I2a2. It is associated with I2a1, according to ISOGG 2010. I2a1 was founded in Iberia.
I was aware of this...
My idea is that some tribal names tend to be preserved for very very long periods of time...
what I had in mind with the theory is that the tribal name Veneti is ancient old and that it preceeds split of I2

same as we have name Sardinia for ancient old settlement of I2a1, and names Suebi and Swedes for I1 carriers, Serbs for some of Balkan I2a2 carriers, Sarbans for carriers of unidentified subgroup of I among Pashtuns, and as area in Persia matching spread of haplogroup I is called Kerman/Germania ...

Btw. area of highest concentration of I2a2 in Balkans (among Bosinan Croats) used to be area with settlement of tribe Sardeates

718px-IllyricumAD6RomanConditionofTribes.png



2] As my friend Shetop says in a previous posting, the type of I2a2 found in Britain and Ireland is I2a2b, and it is positive for L161. It was probably founded in northern Germany, and is effectively absent in eastern Europe. It probably got to Germany as part of the LBK migrations from the Danube region. It probably was carried to Britain and Ireland by different 'waves' of people from pre-Celtic settlers, to Celts and to later Anglo-Saxons. There are currently 8 subclades of I2a2b, and there is some continental membership across the north European plain, with German members currently predominating.
yes, that makes sense..
e.g. position of Carvetti tribe in uk doesnot match spread of I2a2, but seems to be related to I2a1...
in fact I am curious about detailed Y DNA data for areas where Carvetti and Helvetti tribes lived..
whole idea is that, while culture and languages may change, tribal groups in ancient history did tend to preserve self-identity in the form of tribal names...

3] I do not think that the Veneti made any genetic impact on Britain. The Veneti would have carried the eastern 'Dinaric' variety of I2a2- I2a2a. It is absent in Britain and Ireland. As Shetop has cogently argued, this I2a2a-Dinaric was spread with the Slavic migrations. Despite having a common ancestor, I2a2b-Isles and I2a2a-Dinaric branch lines parted company between 12,000 and 13,000 years ago. All I2a2s are 'distant cousins' [as I jokingly refer to Shetop], but in truth I2a2a-Dinaric played no part in the genetic history of Britain and Ireland.
my arguments are russian primary chronicle saying that Slavs are Noricans, and Jordanes saying that they are of Veneti race.. and early Slavs being identified as Venedi, Anti and Sklavinas... where both Anti & Venedi are likely corruption of original Eneti... while previously Anti were identified as Sarmatian tribe...and even early Venedi were identified as Sarmatian tribe... that is how I came up with Veneto-Sarmatian origin of I2 haplogroups... but of course that is just an idea...


I hope this is helpful.
every constructive remark is helpful...
 
I was aware of this...
My idea is that some tribal names tend to be preserved for very very long periods of time...
what I had in mind with the theory is that the tribal name Veneti is ancient old and that it preceeds split of I2

same as we have name Sardinia for ancient old settlement of I2a1, and names Suebi and Swedes for I1 carriers, Serbs for some of Balkan I2a2 carriers, Sarbans for carriers of unidentified subgroup of I among Pashtuns, and as area in Persia matching spread of haplogroup I is called Kerman/Germania ...

Btw. area of highest concentration of I2a2 in Balkans (among Bosinan Croats) used to be area with settlement of tribe Sardeates

718px-IllyricumAD6RomanConditionofTribes.png




yes, that makes sense..
e.g. position of Carvetti tribe in uk doesnot match spread of I2a2, but seems to be related to I2a1...
in fact I am curious about detailed Y DNA data for areas where Carvetti and Helvetti tribes lived..
whole idea is that, while culture and languages may change, tribal groups in ancient history did tend to preserve self-identity in the form of tribal names...


my arguments are russian primary chronicle saying that Slavs are Noricans, and Jordanes saying that they are of Veneti race.. and early Slavs being identified as Venedi, Anti and Sklavinas... where both Anti & Venedi are likely corruption of original Eneti... while previously Anti were identified as Sarmatian tribe...and even early Venedi were identified as Sarmatian tribe... that is how I came up with Veneto-Sarmatian origin of I2 haplogroups... but of course that is just an idea...



every constructive remark is helpful...

If M26 I2a1 was founded in Iberia I don't see a link with Carvetti. It predates the Carvetti by thousands of years, and was probably the earliest clade to hit British shores. We are talking of a completely different haplogroup here in M26 I2a1- the focus is on I2a2 [old I1b1].

So, do you now agree that I2a2 [which is the focus of the thread] in its L161 I2a2b form certainly made an impact on the British/Irish gene-pool, but the eastern form, I2a2a-Dinaric made no impact? That is the scenario suggested by genetic evidence. I2a2b-Isles [me, if you like] and I2a2a-Dinaric [Shetop, if you like] are very different populations, though very distantly related.

I see the absence of I2a2a-Dinaric in Britain as further evidence that the Slavic migrations carried the eastern form. However, there is a relatively rare form of I2a2a called I2a2a-Disles [halfway between Isles and Dinaric] which leans slightly towards I2a2a-Dinaric, and is found mainly in Scotland. This is a bit of an enigma. Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe' suggested that I2a2a-Disles came to Britain via Yamnaya bands.
 
If M26 I2a1 was founded in Iberia I don't see a link with Carvetti. It predates the Carvetti by thousands of years, and was probably the earliest clade to hit British shores. We are talking of a completely different haplogroup here in M26 I2a1- the focus is on I2a2 [old I1b1]
We do not have a clue where M26 was founded, we know where it is found now...
So, do you now agree that I2a2 [which is the focus of the thread] in its L161 I2a2b form certainly made an impact on the British/Irish gene-pool, but the eastern form, I2a2a-Dinaric made no impact? That is the scenario suggested by genetic evidence. I2a2b-Isles [me, if you like] and I2a2a-Dinaric [Shetop, if you like] are very different populations, though very distantly related.

there is nothing to agree or not agree there... issue that I2a2-Dinaric and I2a2-Isles are separate branches is a fact... but point is if you go long enough back in time, there was a point in time where same people carried parent type of those two branches... this time might have in fact been much more recent than now proposed by genetists, since their models are based on lopt of assumptions and parameters set completely ad-hoc...

I see the absence of I2a2a-Dinaric in Britain as further evidence that the Slavic migrations carried the eastern form. However, there is a relatively rare form of I2a2a called I2a2a-Disles [halfway between Isles and Dinaric] which leans slightly towards I2a2a-Dinaric, and is found mainly in Scotland. This is a bit of an enigma. Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe' suggested that I2a2a-Disles came to Britain via Yamnaya bands.

yes, it's very likely scenario that Slavic migrations carried this haplogroup...
question is who were those people before they are mentioned in history as Slavs... were they:

1) of Veneti race as claimed by Jordanes, who lived in time when Slavs appeared on historical scene
2) from Noricum (which places them in location or nearby Adriatic Veneti) as claimed by Russian primary chronicle
3) Sarmatians, as Anti and Venedi were first recorded as Sarmatian tribes
4) Pannonians (e.g. many "ïllyrian" tribes of west Balkan are classified as Pannonian Illyrian tribe, where designation Illyrian likely only means that they lived in Illyria)... Panonians being pre-Slavic is plausible scenario explaining why are there no traces of Illyrian or Gothic languages in ex-Yugoslavia...

in fact, question is were all those Veneto-Sarmatian-Pannonian tribes a continuum of genetically and culturally related tribes that actually were pre-Slavic substrate?

when historians talk about Illyrian tribes, it is often about tribes who lived in Illyria... not about their origin...
Strabo records that Illyria was depopulated before his time in wars of Dacians and Celtic tribes... real Illyrians moved south to hills of Albania, while area was settled according to Strabo with Pannonian tribes....

among those "Illyrian" (as geographically residing in area of Illyria) Pannonian tribes are mentioned Oseriates, Jasi, Breuci...even Dalmatae...

many of those tribes are not classified e.g. Scordisci

I have already explained how Oseriates self-identity is clearly Slavic tribal name....http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361742&postcount=35

this indicates that Pannonians might have been pre-Slavic tribe..

Jasi was the name of an Illyrian tribe[88][116] subtribe of Pannonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#Jasi

I have excplained here that exactly the same tribe is called Jaziges and classified as Sarmatian tribe in only slightly later period...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=361597&postcount=25

this indicates that there was no real difference between Pannonians and Sarmatians.... it's just that one lived in Pannonia others in Sarmatia... it was a continuum spreading over most of east Europe (spread to west Poland and Bohemia happened only after Suebi and Vandali moved away, and spread to Balkan happened after Illyria was depopulated in wars between Dacians and Celtic tribes)...

in my opinion, Veneti, Pannonians and Sarmatians are pre-Slavic nations...

we can see that clearly in statement of Jordanes who lived in times when Slavic names emerges in history accounts
he wrote following around 551 AD:
Quote:
Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/.../jordgeti.html

these are same Antes/Anti who were before classified as one of main Sarmatian tribes... even Venedi were originally classified as Sarmatian tribe...

they are all of Veneti race, and they are genetically likely to be mix of R1a and I2a2...

some of them are wrongly classified as Illyrian tribes, based on their position in Illyria, where they spread to in times after Illyria was depopulated in war between Dacians and celtic tribes...

west Balkans or Illyria was depopulated in a war between Dacians and Celtic tribes... original Illyrians moved south to Albania.. however term Illyria was still used for west Balkans... so the Pannonians who settled there were now called Illyrian Pannonian tribes ...

Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png


how come on same place is hole in R1b, high variance and low frequency of both E-V13 and J2b2? isn't that an indication of massive depopulation event that have happened there?....
hole in R1b might indicate that this was the case after the celtic tribes have already spread to west Balkan....

Strabo has recorded that Illyria was depopulated much before his time (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) and settled by Pannonians..

I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter=5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica


Btw. Scordisci are of unclear origin...
The ethnic affiliation of the Scordisci has been debated by historians. Some refer to them as Celtic[4][5][6],Thracian[7] or Illyrian[8] or a Celtic mix of the above[9].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century B.C. until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.

Sclavenoi = Slavs
Scordisci = Sordisci which has clear Sord/Sorb root...

in my opinion Scordisci were same origin as Serdi, Sardeates, Serretis, Serapilli... tribes... that explains influence of Scordisci extending through "parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina."... I would say that these tribes were originally I2a2 dominant..... reason to conclude that is that we see same Sard/Sarb self-identification in Sardinia (dominant I2a1), in Pashtun Sarbans, and settlers of Sogdiana and Serrica (set apart from neighbours by branch of haplogroup I)
(see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26076)

btw. Shar mountain is in south Kosovo..

Scordisci did in fact exist on wide area of historical influence of later Serbs...

we have tribe that doesnot exactly fit as either Celtic, Illyrian ...tribal name and position matching spread of later Serbs...

only historical evidence of settlements of Serbs from white Serbia to Balkan (proposed to have happened in 7th century), is 10th century text of Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogennetos or Porphyrogenitus... his work has other ilogical moments and its trustworthiness is often debated among historians... btw. note that in this document he calls Serbs by the name Sarbans

he describes that settlement of white Serbs was first in very small area of north Greece (Servia (Σέρβια, transliteration: Serbia) in the province of Thessalonica) that emperor gave them where they settled for a short while and than decided to move further north... if this settlement was very populous how could it fit in very small area of one town... so we have single town settlement wave that imediatelly afterwards spread to cover most of west Balkans... that makes no sense...

white is colour that in iranic/steppe nations had designation west...
e.g. Belorus is in fact WhiteRus ("belo" = white in Slavic, and white had meaning west) , white Croatia was west Croatia... white Serbia was west Serbia...

in my opinion Scordisci were same origin as Serdi, Sardeates, Serretis, Serapilli tribes and white Serbs were likely to have been not very populous west most branch of the same people (white Serbia or Boika being probably Bohemia named by Boii tribe), and when Rome empire was falling a part, a part of those people moved back to their homeland ...
 
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We do have an idea of where M26 I2a1 was founded. The researcher Ken Nordtvedt has argued for Iberia.
 
I see the absence of I2a2a-Dinaric in Britain as further evidence that the Slavic migrations carried the eastern form. However, there is a relatively rare form of I2a2a called I2a2a-Disles [halfway between Isles and Dinaric] which leans slightly towards I2a2a-Dinaric, and is found mainly in Scotland. This is a bit of an enigma. Jean Manco in 'The Peopling of Europe' suggested that I2a2a-Disles came to Britain via Yamnaya bands.

the name Scotland might be related to Scythians... not just linguistic similarity, but also mythology and genetics of R1a and I2a2 points out to it...

Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians

The Declaration of Arbroath is a declaration of Scottish independence, made in 1320. It is in the form of a letter submitted to Pope John XXII, dated 6 April 1320, intended to confirm Scotland's status as an independent, sovereign state and defending Scotland's right to use military action when unjustly attacked.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

from the declaration:
Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

We know that Scythians are R1a carriers...

unlike the rest of UK and Ireland there is R1a in Scotland and northeast Ireland...

I would say that those Scythians settled among Picts whom they claim to have destroyed, which is why I guess they were later referred to as Picts... initially, Picts were subdued and Scythians were ruling elite... later names Pict and Scotish mixed up as boundaries between two merged ethnic groups disappeared......


800px-GlobalR1a1a.png


look at the map representing 3 different ethnic groups in uk and ireland in the mid-5th century AD, between the Roman departure and the founding of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
green - Mainly Goidelic areas.
blue - Mainly Pictish areas.
red - Mainly Brythonic areas.
465px-Map_Gaels_Brythons_Picts.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

R1a falls into Pictish part, and one of three UK DIsles samples from familytreedna
( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap ) project falls there as well (there is one in northeast Ireland as well)...

If you look at distribution of Gaelic languages in Scotland, you can see that Picts were not the carriers of that language, though some of them might have been assimilated into it...thus they were not celtic tribe originally but were partly celticized...

395px-ScotlandGaelicSpeakers2001.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

Picts

The Picts were a confederation of Celtic tribes living in what was later to become eastern and northern Scotland from before the Roman conquest of Britain until the 10th century, when they merged with the Gaels. They lived to the north of the Forth and Clyde rivers, and spoke the extinct Pictish language, thought to have been related to the Brythonic languages spoken by the Britons to the south. They are assumed to have been the descendants of the Caledonii and other tribes named by Roman historians or found on the world map of Ptolemy.
....
In writings from Ireland, the name Cruthin, Cruthini, Cruthni, Cruithni or Cruithini (Modern Irish: Cruithne) was used to refer to the Picts and to a group of people who lived alongside the Ulaid in eastern Ulster.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts

R1a in Ireland matches position of Cruithin and Darini

Keltoi_Tribes.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

later in those areas as tribal name appears Ulaids and even later area is named Ulster
IrelandUlster.png


and I2a2DIsles sample in Ireland from familytreedna is from same area...

Darini seems to have been very warlike people...
The cognate Dari(o) ("agitation, tumult, rage") is a form widely attested in the Gaulish language, especially in personal names.[4] An example from the Welsh language is cynddaredd ("rage"). Thus the Darini may have been considered a people "of great violence", or descendants of a "God of Tumult".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

Perhaps, Darini are counterpart of Greek Dorians who gave Spartans and Macedonians, and who, as it seems, have also had dominant R1a and some I2a2

in fact, Caledonii in Scotland, Macedoni in ancient Macedonia, and Lacedaemon as a name for area around Sparta all seems to have same origin, same as Ireland Darini and Greek Dorian tribal names are related...it is not just linguistic connection but also connection by common genetic origin - haplogroups R1a and I2a2....

note also that I2a2 in Greece is also strongest in Dorian settled areas of Peloponese and ancient Macedonia... I would expect some or dominant DIsles among the I2a2 found there... btw. look also again at R1a distribution... R1a in area of antic Macedonia is much stronger than among south Slavic nations north of it (FYRM, Bulgaria, Serbia...)

anyway, we can clearly see that mix of R1a and I2a2 is not recent... that it existed long time ago...before a tribe from Scythia departed to Spain and from there to Scotland...

from the Declaration of Arbroath
They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today.
we can see that this is ancient old mix... perhaps from times before I2a2-Dinaric mutation appeared...

what I also find quite interesting is that as a reference point in time they take the time when people of Israel crossed the Red Sea
 
Last edited:
Caledonia is the Latin name given by the Romans to the land in today's Scotland north of their province of Britannia, beyond the frontier of their empire. Modern use is as a romantic or poetic name for Scotland as a whole.
Original usage
The original use of the name, by Tacitus, Ptolemy, Lucan and Pliny the Elder, referred to the area (or parts of the area) also known as Pictavia or Pictland north of the Antonine Wall in today's Scotland.[1] The name may be related to that of a Pictish tribe, the Caledonii, one amongst several in the area, though perhaps the dominant tribe which would explain the binomial Caledonia/Caledonii. Their name can be found in Dùn Chailleann, the Scottish Gaelic word for the town of Dunkeld meaning "fort of the Caledonii", and in that of the mountain Sìdh Chailleann or Schiehallion, the "fairy [hill] of the Caledonians". According to Historia Brittonum the site of the seventh battle of the mythical Arthur was a forest in what is now Scotland, called Coit Celidon in early Welsh. Traces of such mythology have endured until today in Midlothian: near the town centre of Edinburgh stands an old volcanic mountain called Arthur's Seat.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caledonia
They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html
and if we look at tribes in Iberia...
at 300 BC there is still a tribe Caladuni there
727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png

click on link bellow to zoom the map...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg
in fact, next to Caladuni is tribe Seurbi
the whole area is painted as partly Celtic, partly pre-Celtic proto-IndoEuropean
The Seurbi were an ancient Celtic tribe of Gallaecia, living in the north of modern Portugal, in the province of Minho, between the rivers Cávado and Lima (or even reaching the river Minho).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seurbi

btw. nearby is also a tribe named Helleni
 
bosna501

It is difficult for one can assuredly claim that Bosnia is Illyrian, or to links haplogroup I2a2 that prevails in Serbia and Bosnia, as Illyrian, because there are contrary opinions.

With Illyrians one can connect one of haplogroup early farmers, i.e. E1b haplogroup (for example some Russian sources this haplogroup call Иллирийцы, хамитский род - Illyrian, Hamitic race), which is represented mainly by Albanians (peak in Kosovo), Greeks (peak in Peloponesse), Romanians and other Balkan people, and certainly it has a presence in Bosnia and Serbia.
 
bosna501
It is difficult for one can assuredly claim that Bosnia is Illyrian, or to links haplogroup I2a2 that prevails in Serbia and Bosnia, as Illyrian, because there are contrary opinions.
With Illyrians one can connect one of haplogroup early farmers, i.e. E1b haplogroup (for example some Russian sources this haplogroup call Иллирийцы, хамитский род - Illyrian, Hamitic race), which is represented mainly by Albanians (peak in Kosovo), Greeks (peak in Peloponesse), Romanians and other Balkan people, and certainly it has a presence in Bosnia and Serbia.

true, in fact E-V13 shows highest variance in areas of Dalmatia, which indicates it was very numerous there for very long time.... this increased variance area matches historical spread of Illyrians.. low frequency with no nearly matching variance in nearby settlements indicates mass genocide of Illyrian people in Croatia and Bosnia...

and this is in accordance with history data... according to Strabo ( 63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) Dacians did (at unrecorded time before his writing) depopulate most of Illyria (Bosnia and Croatia)... Illyrians survived in Montenegro and Albania (along coast from recesse of Adriatic till the bay of Kotor) ... Serbia was never part of Illyria, but it had related previous inhabitants, as Scordisci (who judging by their tribal name might have even been proto-Serbs or related to them) lived together/mixed with Illyrians and Thracians...
that is why E-V13 is high in Serbia, but larger in Montenegro...
besides south of Serbia (roughly Kosovo area) was inhabited with wild Dardanian tribe (if I recall well they were civilized nation before Troyan war, but after it they moved to Balkans and started living as savages without houses, civilized and savage classification done by Greek authors was likely mostly about living in houses or not)...

I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
....
The Breuci, Andizetii, Ditiones, Peirustæ, Mazæi, Daisitiatæ, whose chief was Baton, and other small obscure communities, which extend to Dalmatia, and almost to the Ardiæi to the south, are Pannonians. The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.
...
The Dardanii are entirely a savage people, so much so that they dig caves beneath dungheaps, in which they dwell; yet they are fond of music, and are much occupied in playing upon pipes and on stringed instruments. They inhabit the inland parts of the country, and we shall mention them again in another place. [8]

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter=5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24), Geography


I do not claim that Albanians origin from Illyrians and Dardanians in cultural sense (as the current culture and language might have been imposed to them by any later settled tribe e.g. by Keramisians), but genetically I think this is likely to be the case...

Khan Kuber (or Kouver) was a Bulgar leader, brother of Khan Asparukh and member of the Dulo clan, who according to the Miracles of St Demetrius, in the 670s was the leader of a mixed Christian population of Bulgars, ‘Romans’, Slavs and Germanic people[1] that had been transferred to the Srem region in Pannonia by the Avars 60 years earlier[2][3]. The Miracles of St Demetrius states that, circa 680 AD, Kuber had a falling out with the Avar khagan, and after repelling an Avar attack, led his followers of around 70,000 people,[4] from Srem and to Macedonia (modern Republic of Macedonia). The Byzantines initially called his people Sermisianoi (after their former settlement - Sirmium), and later the Keramisians (after their new place: the Keramissian plain in Greater Macedonia).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

this settlement was large enough to influence culture and language of previous inhabitants... in fact, Albanian language is by many described as very mixed language with lot of loan words from different IE languages... it is satem while Illyrian is thought to have been centum... it has no own maritime vocabulary while Illyrians were sea related people... Albanian is completely alien (no match in both meaning and form) to few preserved illyrian words ....so, I think that most of the language spoken by modern Albanians is due to Keramisians... they were probably culturally dominant compared to Illyrians and especially to Dardanians and thus their language prevailed... still, there must be considerable amount of Illyrian words who are preserved in their vocabulary...
 
the name Scotland might be related to Scythians... not just linguistic similarity, but also mythology and genetics of R1a and I2a2 points out to it...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians


http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

from the declaration:

http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html

We know that Scythians are R1a carriers...

unlike the rest of UK and Ireland there is R1a in Scotland and northeast Ireland...

I would say that those Scythians settled among Picts whom they claim to have destroyed, which is why I guess they were later referred to as Picts... initially, Picts were subdued and Scythians were ruling elite... later names Pict and Scotish mixed up as boundaries between two merged ethnic groups disappeared......


800px-GlobalR1a1a.png


look at the map representing 3 different ethnic groups in uk and ireland in the mid-5th century AD, between the Roman departure and the founding of Anglo-Saxon kingdoms.
green - Mainly Goidelic areas.
blue - Mainly Pictish areas.
red - Mainly Brythonic areas.
465px-Map_Gaels_Brythons_Picts.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

R1a falls into Pictish part, and one of three UK DIsles samples from familytreedna
( http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap ) project falls there as well (there is one in northeast Ireland as well)...

If you look at distribution of Gaelic languages in Scotland, you can see that Picts were not the carriers of that language, though some of them might have been assimilated into it...thus they were not celtic tribe originally but were partly celticized...

395px-ScotlandGaelicSpeakers2001.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels

Picts



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picts

R1a in Ireland matches position of Cruithin and Darini

Keltoi_Tribes.PNG
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

later in those areas as tribal name appears Ulaids and even later area is named Ulster
IrelandUlster.png


and I2a2DIsles sample in Ireland from familytreedna is from same area...

Darini seems to have been very warlike people...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini

Perhaps, Darini are counterpart of Greek Dorians who gave Spartans and Macedonians, and who, as it seems, have also had dominant R1a and some I2a2

in fact, Caledonii in Scotland, Macedoni in ancient Macedonia, and Lacedaemon as a name for area around Sparta all seems to have same origin, same as Ireland Darini and Greek Dorian tribal names are related...it is not just linguistic connection but also connection by common genetic origin - haplogroups R1a and I2a2....

note also that I2a2 in Greece is also strongest in Dorian settled areas of Peloponese and ancient Macedonia... I would expect some or dominant DIsles among the I2a2 found there... btw. look also again at R1a distribution... R1a in area of antic Macedonia is much stronger than among south Slavic nations north of it (FYRM, Bulgaria, Serbia...)

anyway, we can clearly see that mix of R1a and I2a2 is not recent... that it existed long time ago...before a tribe from Scythia departed to Spain and from there to Scotland...

from the Declaration of Arbroath

we can see that this is ancient old mix... perhaps from times before I2a2-Dinaric mutation appeared...

what I also find quite interesting is that as a reference point in time they take the time when people of Israel crossed the Red Sea

The minute levels of R1a1 in Scotland come from Norse Vikings in the north, and Angles in the south. R1a1 is effectively absent from Ulster. When it is found there, the most likely sources are either Danish/Norwegian Viking or from English and Lowland Scots Williamite Planters rather than Cruthin.
 
The minute levels of R1a1 in Scotland come from Norse Vikings in the north, and Angles in the south. R1a1 is effectively absent from Ulster. When it is found there, the most likely sources are either Danish/Norwegian Viking or from English and Lowland Scots Williamite Planters rather than Cruthin.

yes, we have more or less agreed about that few weeks ago
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103
 
how yes no
Illyrian and many old Greek tribes were originally E1b1b.

How about Dacians?

I think, Dacians were originally E1b1b also.
 
how yes no
Illyrian and many old Greek tribes were originally E1b1b.

How about Dacians?

I think, Dacians were originally E1b1b also.
I am not sure about that...
Romania has less E-V13

it may be truth as genetic relief of Romania was probably heavily changed during Roman conquests and movements of people
 
I am not sure about that...
Romania has less E-V13

it may be truth as genetic relief of Romania was probably heavily changed during Roman conquests and movements of people

It is fundamentally important question if it may be truth.

There are opinions that the Dacians (and Thracians also) are originally E1b1b.

If it is true: Illyrians, Greek tribes, Thracians and Dacians are probably the same root, early (Neolithic) farmers.

Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan:

"Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."
 
it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...
 
The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.
...
Strabo
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...999.01.0239:book=7:chapter=5&highlight=#note5

I did previously misinterpret this....
Even though he states that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, Illyrian coast in time of Strabo writing was not in Albania and Montenegro, but only from Kotor bay in west Montenegro to Istra in Croatia...

he used phrase "recess of Adriatic bay" also to explain position of Veneti...

and in fact, Adriatic coast north of Kotor bay is very weak in E, even on islands... so, while we can relate Dardanians wirh haplogroup E, it is very questionable whether that can be done with Illyrians... I think not...
 
it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...

how yes no
It is better to shift this discussion to the topic about E1b1b, and I answered to this your post on the topic:

"New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East".
 

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