New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East

Certainly, the Eupedia E-YDNA haplogroup averages for Galicia need to be reduced. They currently read 25% on the DNA tables.
 
There is an enclave of M123 clusters (M34 mainly) around the Dead Sea, we can't see it here for instance....
 
Slovakia and eastern Austria have about 11%. Not really a hotspot considering that surrounding areas have about 9%. But still, I wanted to show that it was above 10%.

"The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


sample size 250

group__samples__percentage
E1b1b___18______7.2
J1_______3______1.2
J2a1b____3______1.2
J2a1h____1______0.4
J2b______2______0.8
I1_______19_____7.6
I2a______46____18.4
I2b1______4_____1.6
G2a______10______4
R1a______95_____38
R1b______33_____13.2
H_________6_____2.4
Q_________3_____1.2
N_________6_____2.4
T_________1_____0.4
 
"The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


sample size 250

group__samples__percentage
E1b1b___18______7.2

You may be right.

Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.
 
You may be right.
Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.

ok, than 13.2% and 15.6% Austria hotspot should be on map...

250px-EU-Austria.svg.png
250px-Karte_A_Tirol.svg.png


currently on map I see hole in Tyrol instead of hotspot

Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
 
300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_people
Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG


according to this map, Liburnian and Raetic people are hole in E-V13 spread...while Messapii and Greek/Illyrian colonies are hotspot, with Oscan speaking people (Semnites) also being strongly E...

I would expect less in Veneto, as Adriatic Veneti came from Paplagonia which is north part of Asia minor that is scarce in E ...however, previous inhabitants might had significant E

btw. where does data for Veneto come from? I remember discussion I had with someone regarding I2a2 in Veneto, and in fact we concluded that area was not sampled but only the nearby one of Raetians...
 
it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...

how yes no
You're right, it is hard to say.

If we read Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan: "Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

and author says that:

"About 25 kya (25000 years) the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."

"Europe experienced a cooling climate and the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM)."

"About 10 kya (10000 years) the farmers of the Middle East, representing African Clan E (its sub-clan E3b) and two sub-clans of F (the “Caucasian” Clan G and the “Near Eastern” Clan J), spread to Anatolia and further to Greece and the Mediterranean coast."

"Clans I, E3b, J, and G all originate from the Middle East, but only E3b, J, and G (not I) belong to the group of “Early Farmers.”

"Clan I had spread into Europe before the emergence of effective domestication of wild plants and animals (i.e. the beginning of agriculture and cattle raising) in the Middle East."

"Clan I represents the “Old Europeans”."

...

I think that we can link Dacians, Thracians, Greeks and Illyrians with early farmers.

And linguistic researchs can be helpful.

For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b.

Today the Romanian language is a Latinized but even so, between Romanian and Albanian there are many similarities.

There are opinions that Albanians originate from one of part Dacians, and although they are close to the Illyrians and the ancient Greeks, not originate from them.

Some consider that today's Albanian population is similar population of Peloponnese and that somebody can make connections Peloponnese-Epirus-Albania.

The third opinion is that Albanians come from Illyrians directly.

The problem with the second opinion is the difference in language between today's Greek and Albanian, although of course it is possible to exist different versions of why this was so (but I do not want speculate now).

The problem with the third opinion is that in today's Albanian has very few words related to the sea, but Illyrian language certainly had to have sea words because the Illyrians inhabited the Adriatic coast.

It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.
 
I used this predictor http://predictor.ydna.ru/ to get results for haplotypes from this study Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania. There were only a couple of less reliable predictions and for them I added predictions from this one Whit Athey's predictor.
It resulted with 18.85% for E1b1b1 in South-East Romania and when I added results for Ploesti, (Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns) which is in the same region the number was 18.35% for South-East Romania.

For Northeast Romania there is only 7.4% found in this study: Population History of the Dniester-Carpathians:
Evidence from Alu Insertion and Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms
.

So for the whole Romania probable frequency should be between 8% and 18% for E1b1b1. The big range I gave is because there are no results from Transylvania.

I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.


It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.

I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?
 
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I used this predictor
I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.
well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...

For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b
I used to think that as well...
but it seems that E-V13 was spread by Greeks as much as J2

and Greek language as IE language was probably brought into Greeks by some haplogroup other than E-V13 and J2... it could have been R1b or perhaps Dorians could have been haplogroup I.... (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48 )

Greek E-V13 seems to be related to Aeolic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic)
Elia on Peloponnese was probably also Aeolic in origin (well, even its name is derived from it) but language of Dorians prevailed....

Aeolic (pronounced /iːˈɒlɪk/) or Aeolian (/iːˈoʊlɪən/) Greek (also known as Lesbian or Lesbic Greek) is a linguistic term used to describe a set of rather archaic Greek sub-dialects, spoken mainly in Boeotia (a region in Central Greece), in Lesbos (an island close to Asia Minor) and in other Greek colonies.
The Aeolic dialect shows many archaisms, in comparison to the other Greek dialects (i.e. Ionian-Attic, Doric, Northwestern and Arcado-Cypriot), as well as many innovations.
Aeolic Greek is most widely known for being the language of the writings of Sappho and Alcaeus of Mytilene. Aeolic poetry, the most famous example of which being the works of Sappho, mostly uses four classical meters known as the Aeolics, which are: Glyconic (the most basic form of Aeolic line), Hendecasyllabic verse, Sapphic stanza and Alcaic stanza (the latter two so named after Sappho and Alcaeus respectively).
In Protagoras (dialogue) 341c of Plato, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect as barbarian, while referring to Pittacus of Mytilene:[2]
he didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect
The Aeolic dialect might, in the time of Socrates and Plato, sound so strange to the Athenians, as to be termed, from an exclusive pride in the Attic literary style, barbaros.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic

660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png

800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG

Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

Haplogroup-J2.jpg




as for Albanians, I think they are genetically most related to Dardanians... but culturally and linguistically they could have been significantly influenced by some later movement e.g. by people led by Kuber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

in fact, Aeolic Greece should be close to original language of Dardanians, as Aeolic is related to E-V13, was termed barbarian, and because Dardanians were also present in Asia minor in Troad area from where they came to Balkan), and Aeolic Greek includes Troad and port of coast south of it.....
so, I do wonder how similar Aeolic Greece is to modern Albanian...

The terms Dardanoi (Greek: "Δάρδανοι"), - its anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans & Dardan - in classical writings were synonymous with the term Trojan, the Dardanoi being Trojans themselves, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

Dardanians did live in Troad (they were not Trojans according to Homer who distinguish Trojans and Dardanians which could be difference between E-V13 and J2 as both seems to be strong in that area), and after Trojan wars moved to Balkan...

btw. there is significant genetic difference between Geghs (north Albanians) and Tosks (south Albanians)... I2a2 among Tosks seems to be recent admixture as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... thus, it came from people who were recently (in last 500 years) Albanized which could have been Vlachs or Slavic people living in Albania...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

actually, I wonder whether Illyrians might have been dominantly J2, equal mix of J2 and E-v13, dominantly E-V13, or I2a2....

Albania (especially south part) seems to show large J2
 
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I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?

...as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

Shetop
You can see how yes no gave one source.

You can read the text:

"What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.


The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection."

And comments. One of them:

"However the idea of the Albanians originally coming from somewhere like Dacia seems to ring true. "
 
What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians.


The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.
yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...
13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...
 
yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...

how yes no
I think that your explanation is very logical, and there is the link between Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians and Albanian Tosks.

Also, ancient Macedonians are probably one of tribe Dorian Greeks (it has a lot in the literature about that). Maybe Dorian Greek is derived from J2 or mix J2 & I2. What about other old Greek tribes (possible explanations for haplogroups, languages...)?

It is interesting there are linguists who claim that Greek do not belong to the Indo-European languages. Perhaps due to the strong influence of the Phoenician. But if original Greek comes from some branches of early farmers the language can't be Indo-European.

Clearly, E1b1b probably belong to the Dardanians and Thracians.

But it does not mean that Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians, Dardanians and Thracians all spoke the same language, it is possible that these are different languages, which are similar to each other, as the root they are not Indo-European languages.

What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.
 
well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...

Well they did go deeper in subbranches.

R1b in the Southeast Europe (including Romania) is mostly represented with older (or at least different) R1b subclades than the ones found in Western Europe including Germany. I think we discussed this already. If Germanic tribes had R1b they would bring R-U106 (like in Portugal) and this subclade has very low frequencies in Southeast Europe.

Than, G2a in Southeast Europe is the same as in Western Europe and we can't say Sarmatians settled so wide in Europe.

And about J2, it did come from the East, probably Anatolia, but it happened earlier, during the history unknown to us. There is no historical event which could possibly explain J2 in Southeast Europe including Italy.
 
What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.

I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?
 
I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2

E-V13 was in Dalmatia l0ong time ago as it has large variance and low frequency there... however, this large variance of E-V13 in Dalmatia might be not about Illyrians but about previous inhabitants that are by many schoolars thought (based on presence of thracian toponyms) to be Thracians...

Ilyrians came from north and subdued Thracians living in Dalmatia...
so, Illyrians might have been not E-V13 but first wave of I2a2...

E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...

according to this map

italy.jpg

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/map.html

the spread of Illyrians in Italy does match elevated I2a2 on Maciamo's map

Haplogroup_I2a.gif
 
I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2

Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.
 
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.

The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.
 

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