New map of E1b1b in Europe and the Middle East

The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.

Estimating the age of haplogroups is, I believe, an extremely difficult and theoretical thing to do without ancient DNA to confirm the actual evolution of SNP's in the tree. One reason is that not every scientist agree even remotely on what mutation rate to use (Dienekes Pontikos is very vocal about this issue on his blog), so that estimate can be easily doubled or tripled in time (or reduced by as much) depending on whose mutation rate you choose. But the most troublesome of all issues is that mutations occur far more frequently in a large population with a high birth rate and high (infantile) death rate, like India, than in a society where people have only one or two children fairly late in life, like present-day Western countries.

So it could be that I2a2-South is indeed to young to be Mesolithic in origin. But it could just as well be that the population of the Dinaric Alps was generally sparse over the last 10,000 years, so that their mutation rate was much slower than the world average. I think this is also why haplogroup I1 had been mistakenly judged to be so young (some claim as little as 4500 years). Hunter-gather societies had low population, with low birth rates, and they happen to coincide with haplogroups that look young (I1, I2b, I2a2), but probably aren't.
 
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ?.

What about Magna Grecia?
How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece (I2a2 is almost completely absent in South and Central Italy)?
 
What about Magna Grecia?
How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece?

Three reasons :

1) Each part of Greece has quite different proportions of haplogroups.

2) Greek colonists would have mixed to some extend with the previous inhabitants of southern Italy (if not immediately, at least once all Italy was unified under Roman rule, and ever since then).

3) Haplogroup frequencies tend to vary naturally over time.
 
From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.
 
From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.

Definetely.
Even if you look spread of I2a2 in Greece with high concentration in Macedonia and highspot on Peloponesus, than in northwestern Bulgaria (talking about I2a2 Dinaric North) it clearly corespond with settlements of various Slavic tribes: Velegeziti, Milinzi, Jezerci in the so called 6th century Sclavinias.

Macodnian_Sklavinia.png
 
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic.

well, how can Illyrian language go completelly out of use in a group that is genetically extremelly homogeneous and lives in isolated mountain areas as people from Herzegovina do... that is just very difficult to explain.. in all languages where population went through large cultural and language shifts there are layers and layers of previous language, but I donnot think that is the case for Herzegovina...in fact, when Serb language reformer Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Stefanovi%C4%87_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87) was creating 100% phonetic alphabet, and grammar rules for Serbian literature language, he used language spoken in Herzegovina as basis, as he concluded that it is the area where most pure Serbian language is spoken...

to compare, there are still Vlach villages scattered over Balkan, who kept their language (that originates from times of Roman empire) despite them being scattered around... now if they kept complete language, how come that people in Herzegovina, who are grouped in single place and genetically very homogeneous, did not keep anything from their language?

I find that hard to believe....

So, in my opinion, either I2a2 came mostly with Slavs, or previous people did already speak similar or in fact the same language...

btw. Albania is full with Slavic toponyms...one could argue that Slavs have massively settled in that land as well, but as far as I remember there is an issue that when trying to connect Albanian language related toponyms to the ones of ancient world, it goes only via Slavic intermediary form...

on other hand, some toponyms in south Serbia and Macedonia seems to have Albanian root....

so, I find it possible that Albanians origin from Dardanians, and south Slavic people from Illyrians....
in fact, one may conclude that also based on this:

Ystrclusters.png


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html

which shows that south Slavs cluster with Romanians, east and west Hungary and central Ukraine...
if we look at cluster and try to figure out possible source of this spread, south part of central Ukraine seems logical... and exactly there we find Vinnitsya area which in fact likely means area of Veneti...
250px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wynnyzja.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast

Veneti are by many scholars thought to be same as Illyrians...

and when Jordanes writes of early Slavs he tells that they are of Veneti race...

Hermanaric also took arms against the Venethi. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and tried to resist him. But a multitude of cowards is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni.



In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
 
It is very often forgotten that according to historical sources region of Dalmatia, except some coastal cities were practically deserted land in 7th century. It is also very well documented with archeological facts, all Byzantine cities stayed empty for centuries and there were no continuity in human settlements of that period. Some isolate group of domestic population remains in mountains but their number were symbolic.
So, the first settlement of Slavs on Balkan from 6th century correspond with I2a2 Din North. Settlement of Serbs in 7th century in the region of Dalmatia fully corespond with I2a2 Dinaric South.
There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July. And all remnants of previous fortifications, cemetaries were reffered as greek cemetary, greek church or greek city. So the national legend also said they came on deserted land.
 
There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July.

this sounds as volcanic winter...
but only one in that time frame seems to have been in year 535/536

The Byzantine historian Procopius recorded of 536, in his report on the wars with the Vandals, "during this year a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness...and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear."[4][5]

The Gaelic Irish Annals[6][7] record the following:

Further phenomena reported by a number of independent contemporary sources:
Low temperatures, even snow during the summer (snow reportedly fell in August in China, which postponed the harvest there)[8]
Crop failures[9]
"A dense, dry fog" in the Mideast, China, and Europe[8]
Drought in Peru, which affected the Moche culture[8][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535–536

Byzantium defetead Vandals in 536. and imediatelly attacked Ostrogothic kingdom in south Italy...

so, story may relate to settlement of Goths in Herzegovina but is one century to early to relate to settlement of Serbs....

though, there is priest of Duklja who in his chronicle (13th century) claims that south Slavs are mostly Goths with some later Slavic admixture...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Duklja

as far as I remember, he claims that they called mountain areas near the sea Croatia (Montenegro was red (=south) Croatia), while Bosnia and Raska were named Serbia... in fact, after reading his words one easily comes to impression that nations of Serbs and Croats came into existance after Gothic empire was split between two brothers one ruling Serbia (Raska nad Bosnia) and other ruling Croatia (Dalmatia and Montenegro)... he does enlist all the kings from arival of Goths on Balkan, and also some data about relevant historic events...

He does say that Goths were wild, agressive people, while later not populous admixture of Slavs were good people... he also claims that afer some time very numerous Bulgarian people settled in east of the empire, and that those people were speaking the same language
 
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Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon. The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region. It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.
 
Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon.

Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...

The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region.
exactly...
but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

somehow story of settlement in land abandoned by Greeks got mixed up after new settlers joined Goth settlers... lol, Goth settlers wanted to beautify the self-image they presented to new Slavic settlers, so they said Greeks have gone when there was winter in summer as it was too cold for them...

most of I1 in Balkan can easily be Gothic in origin, and there is lot of it...
I2a2 is not likely to be Gothic as language shift would not happened in I2a2 dominant areas when less populous R1a people would enter in small numbers into wild and aggressive I2a2 dominant areas... and it is not likely that Ostrogoths were Slavic speaking when they arrived...

though I have to admit that Goths could explain fairly well how Serbs/Croats, east and west Hungarians, Romanians and central Ukrainians can be same cluster.....

however, I think (Pannonian /) Illyrian / Veneti / Sarmatian link is more plausible explanation for the spread of I2a2 as those tribes existed for centuries in relevant areas, while Goths were in Balkans in historically relatively short period in which lot of wars occurred.....

It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.

big epidermic of plaque could be partially consequence of famine that lasted for years which did likely reduce capabilities of immune system of most people...

arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...
 
I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?


We can read, for example, at Wiik (2008):

"About 25 kya (25000 years ago) one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b, reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common in the present-day Ukraine.

About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."


It means that probably first male inhabitants of Balkan were they who belonged I haplogroup, although it is possible even at that time or later, clans R1a and/or R1b have also been able to be in some areas of the Balkans.


For now, we do not know who were these first the members of clan I.

What we can now conclude from the existing haplogroup first inhabitants of the Balkans were the holders of R1a haplogroup.

It is probably that (hypothesis):

the men from the Vinca civilization belonged R1a

which of course researching can prove whether the hypothesis is correct or no and it should research

but if it is no true alternative can only be that Vincans belonged to a branch I.

 
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Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...

exactly...
but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...

There were Slavs which definetely came before Serbs. Serbs came in 7th century and were parth of totally different migration. But much before the Serbs various Slavic tribes poured into Balkan provinces . At that tim Goths have already gone.This is the generation of arriving Slavs which could remember the dramatic climatic change in 536. and transfer it to Serbs which came around 620. The Serbs as I think were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric South and they settled among already settled Slavs which were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric North. Today, according to newest study there is about one third of North haplotypes among Serbs and Montenegrines and two third South haplotypes.

This is from wikipedia:

In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down.[6] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia.[7] As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[8] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[9] By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns).
 
Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.

Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.

Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.
 
Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.
Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.
Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.
I don't know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
Climatic change in 536. were recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population.
 
I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.
 
I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.

Interesting that the cornish celts who migrated to brittany france are empty of this marker
 
Carpatho-Rusyn DNA Project on FTDNA encompassing mountainous regions of Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine:
E1-24,4%
I1-5,8%
I2a-14%
I2b-1,1%
J2-2,3%
N1-1,1%
R1a-39,5%
R1a1a1g(M458+)-8,1%
R1a1a1g2(L260+)-8,1%
R1b-10,5%
R2-1,1%

Interesting enough, there are almost no E1b1b1 in Zamagurie region DNA Project, though there are a lot of J2(14%).
 
E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...

Any scientific source that a populaton with dominant E-V13 looks like this?
 
hello!
questions about aspects of this topic as discussed by other members:
- for France, the distributions are very unsure even if we can imagine that E1 as a whole is very seldom in Brittany - I though before (I'm no mor sure of nothing waiting for more data) that Y-E1 was a part of the demic propagation of agriculture along the Danube river to South Germany and Eastern-Northern France, mixed with other S-E HGs - I wait more data for LBK for example - but nevertheless I find very heavy the percentages of the map for Y-E1 in France ?
- phenotypes for Y-E1: hard to decide - I guess a southern type, dark - but which one? there are more than a type among the so diverses so called 'mediterranean phenotypes' - all mediterranean types are not small statured (in Near-East there are tall enough dolichocephalic eurafrican people) and keep in mind true mediterranean people, whatever the subtype, are not little fat or sturdy mesocephalic people - they are light bodied people by nature (it 's true we know that diet can change the body aspect, see the noble Saudi Arabs: they are fat very often but their skeletons are light and muscles too - what I keep in mind in that they ere the LAST ligneages come out from Eastern Africa, where people are middle height (not small) and slender
- for Y-I2a1b North and South I believe we are going fast and far when giving them a too separate distribution at the beginning: do not forget they are "brothers"
let's pray the DNA surveys god to have more data quickly!
 

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