Genetic make-up of Europe

[Maciamo]

Based on the Distribution of Y-chromosome DNA in Europe, here is a list of countries based on their ethnic percentages.

Foreword

Celts

There isn't a homogeneous Celtic ethnicity. Pre-Roman Europe had a strong Celtic culture ranging from Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia. Celtic people can be divided in these rough categories, each associated with a subclade of R1b-S116+ (subclade markers are in brackets) :

- Rhine-Alpine-Italic Celts (S28)
- Scottish Celts (M222)
- Irish Celts (M37)
- Atlantic Celts* (M167)
- Basques (M65, M153)

* Northern Iberia, Western France, Cornwall, Wales.

Germans

What people call "Germanic ethnicity" is in fact a mixture of northern continental R1b (S116-, S21+) and I haplogroups (I1 + I2b). In Scandinavia and East Germany, the inclusion of a strong Slavic component (R1a) make them a slightly different ethnicity from the English, Dutch, Belgian or West Germans.

Slavs

The original Slavic (or Aryan or Kurgan) people belonged to haplogroup R1a. This haplogroup is also common in Central Asia, Iran and India, thanks to the great Indo-Aryan migrations.

Greco-Romans

The Ancient Greeks were an admixture of European and Near-Eastern people. The paternal side shows a strong Near-Eastern component, making modern Greek Y-DNA closer to Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese and even Iraqi one than to that of Western or Northern Europe. According to Y-DNA frequencies observed in Europe, Southern Italy and the Balkans were heavily settled by the Ancient Greeks, or their Neolithic ancestors that did not yet call themselves "Greeks".

We are still unsure about the original Y-DNA types of the Romans, but due to the proximity of the Greek colonies, and the fact that Etruscans were also of Near Eastern origins, it is likely that the Romans were an admixture of Near-Eastern J2, G2 and E3b with the native Italo-Celtic R1b. As the Romans played a major role in spreading Near-Eastern haplogroups in and north of the Alps, I will refer to the J2-G2-E3b admixture as Greco-Roman, and the Italic R1b just as "Celtic". Haplogroup G2 correlates strongly with the spread of J2 with a ratio of 1 G2 for 3 J2 in average, suggesting that these haplogroups spread together from Anatolia, while the European E3b had a different origin (probably in the Balkans).


Most Celtic countries in Europe (R1b-S116+)

1. Ireland : about 75% of Y-DNA
2. Spain & Wales : about 70%
3. Scotland : about 65%
4. France & Portugal : about 55%
5. Italy : about 40%
6. Switzerland & England : about 35%
7. Belgium : about 30%
8. Germany : about 25%
9. Netherlands & Denmark : about 20%

Most Germanic countries in Europe (I1 + I2b + R1b-S116-)

1. Netherlands & Iceland : about 70% of Y-DNA
2. Sweden : about 65%
3. Denmark : about 58%
4. Norway : about 55%
5. England : about 53%
6. Belgium : about 48%
7. Germany : about 40%
8. Austria : about 34%
9. Finland : about 32%
10. Czech Republic : about 26%
11. Switzerland : about 22%
12. France : about 21%
13. Slovakia : about 19%
14. Estonia : about 18%
15. Poland : about 14%

Most Slavic countries in Europe (R1a + I2a2)

1. Belarus & Croatia : about 70% of Y-DNA
2. Poland : about 65%
3. Ukraine: about 62%
4. Russia (historical) : about 57%
5. Bosnia : about 55%
6. Slovakia : about 50%
7. Bulgaria : about 47%
8. Czech Republic : about 43%
9. Romania : about 40%
10. Hungary : about 37%
11. Serbia : about 35%

Most Indo-European countries (R1a + R1b)

1. Wales : about 84% of Y-DNA
2. Ireland : about 82%
3. Scotland : about 80%
4. Poland : about 73%
5. Spain : about 72%
6. England : about 71%
7. Iceland & Belgium : about 65%
8. Netherlands & Germany : about 60%

Most Paleolithic European (Cro-Magnon) countries (I1 + I2)

1. Croatia : about 51% of Y-DNA
2. Sweden : about 44%
3. Norway & Bulgaria : about 37%
4. Denmark : about 36%
5. Serbia : about 35%
6. Iceland : about 33%
7. Belarus & Finland : about 29%
8. Netherlands & Hungary : about 25%
9. Czech Republic : about 24%
10. England, Germany & Romania : about 21%
11. Belgium : about 20%

Most Greco-Balkanic (or Near Eastern) countries in Europe (E-M78 + T + J + G2a)

1. Greece : about 58% of Y-DNA
2. Albania : about 48%
3. Turkey : about 45%
4. Italy : about 40%
5. Macedonia Portugal : about 38%
6. Romania : about 33%
7. Austria & Bulgaria : about 30%
8. Switzerland : about 25%
9. Hungary : about 22%
10. France : about 20%
11. Germany : about 16%

Most Uralo-Finnic countries in Europe (N1c1)

1. Finland : about 60% of Y-DNA
2. Latvia & Lithuania : about 40%
3. Estonia : about 35%
4. Russia (historical) : about 23%
5. Sweden : about 7%

-------------------

Here are a few ethnic combinations (must have at least 20% of each). I use the term "Greek" or "Greco-" as an abbreviation to mean "Near-Eastern" (actually Levant + Anatolia + Greece + Balkans), i.e. the people associated with the early farming.

Most Greco-Celtic countries (R1b + E + T + G2a + J2)

1. Portugal : about 90% of Y-DNA
2. Italy : about 82%
3. France : about 75%
4. Switzerland : about 60%

Most Italo-Celto-Germanic countries (R1b + I)

1. Netherlands : about 95% of Y-DNA
2. Ireland & Wales : about 90%
3. England & Scotland : about 85%
4. Belgium : about 78%
5. Denmark & France : about 75%
6. Germany : about 65%
7. Switzerland : about 58%
8. Italy : about 55%

Most Slavo-Germanic countries

1. Iceland : about 95% of Y-DNA
2. Sweden & Norway : about 85%
3. Czech Republic : about 72%
4. Austria & Slovakia : about 65%

Most Greco-Slavic countries

1. Ukraine : about 85% of Y-DNA
2. Serbia & Greece : about 80%
3. Albania & Bulgaria : about 77%
4. Romania : about 70%
5. Hungary : about 65%
6. Austria : about 60%

Most Uralo-Slavic countries

1. Lithuania : about 85% of Y-DNA
2. Latvia & Russia : about 80%
3. Estonia : about 70%

[Maciamo]

Here is a map of major ethnic groups in Europe mostly based on Y-DNA (as well as some anthropologic maps). There are three kinds of regions on the map :

1) single ethnicity : over 50% of the Y-DNA matches an ethnic group (e.g. Ireland = Celtic)
2) two dominant ethnicities : at least 20% of Y-DNA from each ethnicity totalling over 50% of the population.
3) three dominant ethnicities : at least 20% of Y-DNA from each ethnicity totalling over 50% of the population.

[Joro]

I2a is not Slavic,it has not been brought by Slavs,it is indigenous to Balkans.R1a is Slavic,therefore most Slavic are Poland,Russia,Ukraine,Czech etc....
Croats and Bosniaks are gentically indigenous.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joro I2a is not Slavic,it has not been brought by Slavs,it is indigenous to Balkans.R1a is Slavic,therefore most Slavic are Poland,Russia,Ukraine,Czech etc.... Croats and Bosniaks are gentically indigenous.

That's correct. I have mentioned that in the description of European haplogroups. For the sake of simplicity (to avoid confusing novice readers) and I considered ethnic groups here as being modern ethnicities, not ancient ones. Modern ethnic groups are the admixtures I described above.

[Joro]

But it is little inappropriate then to make a list of 'most Slavic' countries.what should that mean?only logical to me would be that they carry Slavic original haplogroup the most,so this is confusing.

[Joro]

well,it doesn't matter.being called dinaric,slavic or pocahontas,it won't magically influence the good old I2a

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joro But it is little inappropriate then to make a list of 'most Slavic' countries.what should that mean?only logical to me would be that they carry Slavic original haplogroup the most,so this is confusing.

It's not inappropriate if you think of modern ethnicities as admixtures. R1a alone could be Central Asian, not necessarily Slavic. What makes them distinctively Slavic is that R1a mixed with the native East European I2 (+ E-V13, G2a, J2b and T, which I will call the "Thessalian Neolithic farmer admixture").

I think it is even clearer with R1b. R1b alone is Proto-Italo-Celto-Germanic. Germanic people came to exist as a distinct ethnicity when R1b mixed with I1 and R1a in Scandinavia. Italic split from Celtic once they moved to Italy and mix with the people of the Terramare culture (I2, E, G2a, J2). The Celtic ethnicity is the most closely linked to a high percentage of R1b, but also include some I2, as well as a few percents of E, G2a and J2b of Neolithic origin (much less than the Italic branch). The proportion of E-G-J is lower in the British Isles than in Central Europe.

In other words, what distinguishes the various Italo-Celtic branches is the total percentage of E-G-J admixture to the R1b-I2 component. Insular Celts have the lowest E-G-J and Italics the highest, with Gaulish/Hallstatt and Iberian Celts in the middle.

You can't distinguish later ethnic groups without using admixtures. Looking only at R1b or R1a gives you Indo-Europeans, not actual Slavs, Celts, Germans and Italics.

[JackMack]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maciamo Based on the Distribution of Y-chromosome DNA in Europe, here is a list of countries based on their ethnic percentages. Foreword Celts There isn't a homogeneous Celtic ethnicity. Pre-Roman Europe had a strong Celtic culture ranging from Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia. Celtic people can be divided in these rough categories, each associated with a subclade of R1b-S116+ (subclade markers are in brackets) : - Rhine-Alpine-Italic Celts (S28) - Scottish Celts (M222) - Irish Celts (M37) - Atlantic Celts* (M167) - Basques (M65, M153) * Northern Iberia, Western France, Cornwall, Wales. Germans What people call "Germanic ethnicity" is in fact a mixture of northern continental R1b (S116-, S21+) and I haplogroups (I1 + I2b). In Scandinavia and East Germany, the inclusion of a strong Slavic component (R1a) make them a slightly different ethnicity from the English, Dutch, Belgian or West Germans. Slavs The original Slavic (or Aryan or Kurgan) people belonged to haplogroup R1a. This haplogroup is also common in Central Asia, Iran and India, thanks to the great Indo-Aryan migrations. Greco-Romans The Ancient Greeks were an admixture of European and Near-Eastern people. The paternal side shows a strong Near-Eastern component, making modern Greek Y-DNA closer to Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese and even Iraqi one than to that of Western or Northern Europe. According to Y-DNA frequencies observed in Europe, Southern Italy and the Balkans were heavily settled by the Ancient Greeks, or their Neolithic ancestors that did not yet call themselves "Greeks". We are still unsure about the original Y-DNA types of the Romans, but due to the proximity of the Greek colonies, and the fact that Etruscans were also of Near Eastern origins, it is likely that the Romans were an admixture of Near-Eastern J2, G2 and E3b with the native Italo-Celtic R1b. As the Romans played a major role in spreading Near-Eastern haplogroups in and north of the Alps, I will refer to the J2-G2-E3b admixture as Greco-Roman, and the Italic R1b just as "Celtic". Haplogroup G2 correlates strongly with the spread of J2 with a ratio of 1 G2 for 3 J2 in average, suggesting that these haplogroups spread together from Anatolia, while the European E3b had a different origin (probably in the Balkans). Most Celtic countries in Europe (R1b-S116+) Ireland : about 75% of Y-DNA Spain & Wales : about 70% Scotland : about 65% France & Portugal : about 55% Italy : about 40% Switzerland & England : about 35% Belgium : about 30% Germany : about 25% Netherlands & Denmark : about 20% Most Germanic countries in Europe (I1 + I2b + R1b-S116-) Netherlands & Iceland : about 70% of Y-DNA Sweden : about 65% Denmark : about 58% Norway : about 55% England : about 53% Belgium : about 48% Germany : about 40% Austria : about 34% Finland : about 32% Czech Republic : about 26% Switzerland : about 22% France : about 21% Slovakia : about 19% Estonia : about 18% Poland : about 14% Most Slavic countries in Europe (R1a + I2a2) Belarus & Croatia : about 70% of Y-DNA Poland : about 65% Ukraine: about 62% Russia (historical) : about 57% Bosnia : about 55% Slovakia : about 50% Bulgaria : about 47% Czech Republic : about 43% Romania : about 40% Hungary : about 37% Serbia : about 35% Most Indo-European countries (R1a + R1b) Wales : about 84% of Y-DNA Ireland : about 82% Scotland : about 80% Poland : about 73% Spain : about 72% England : about 71% Iceland & Belgium : about 65% Netherlands & Germany : about 60% Most Paleolithic European (Cro-Magnon) countries (I1 + I2) Croatia : about 51% of Y-DNA Sweden : about 44% Norway & Bulgaria : about 37% Denmark : about 36% Serbia : about 35% Iceland : about 33% Belarus & Finland : about 29% Netherlands & Hungary : about 25% Czech Republic : about 24% England, Germany & Romania : about 21% Belgium : about 20% Most Greco-Balkanic (or Near Eastern) countries in Europe (E-M78 + T + J + G2a) Greece : about 58% of Y-DNA Albania : about 48% Turkey : about 45% Italy : about 40% Macedonia Portugal : about 38% Romania : about 33% Austria & Bulgaria : about 30% Switzerland : about 25% Hungary : about 22% France : about 20% Germany : about 16% Most Uralo-Finnic countries in Europe (N1c1) Finland : about 60% of Y-DNA Latvia & Lithuania : about 40% Estonia : about 35% Russia (historical) : about 23% Sweden : about 7% ------------------- Here are a few ethnic combinations (must have at least 20% of each). I use the term "Greek" or "Greco-" as an abbreviation to mean "Near-Eastern" (actually Levant + Anatolia + Greece + Balkans), i.e. the people associated with the early farming. Most Greco-Celtic countries (R1b + E + T + G2a + J2) Portugal : about 90% of Y-DNA Italy : about 82% France : about 75% Switzerland : about 60% Most Italo-Celto-Germanic countries (R1b + I) Netherlands : about 95% of Y-DNA Ireland & Wales : about 90% England & Scotland : about 85% Belgium : about 78% Denmark & France : about 75% Germany : about 65% Switzerland : about 58% Italy : about 55% Most Slavo-Germanic countries Iceland : about 95% of Y-DNA Sweden & Norway : about 85% Czech Republic : about 72% Austria & Slovakia : about 65% Most Greco-Slavic countries Ukraine : about 85% of Y-DNA Serbia & Greece : about 80% Albania & Bulgaria : about 77% Romania : about 70% Hungary : about 65% Austria : about 60% Most Uralo-Slavic countries Lithuania : about 85% of Y-DNA Latvia & Russia : about 80% Estonia : about 70%

I though that the Cro Magnons were derived from the IJ Haplogroup- isn't that both I and J Y-DNA Haplogroups or at least I with a kinship to J?

[Ua'Ronain]

Have they even been able to do a Y DNA test on any Cro Magnons? I didnt think they have, possibly they have pulled mtdna but I have never heard of y-dna test results. If it is a theory I just wondered where I could find information about the subject.

[Maciamo]

You are right, Cro-Magnon Y-DNA hasn't been tested yet.

[JackMack]

I found the following and thought it was interesting....
For review: http://www.continuitas.com/intro.html
Haplogroup I (Y-DNA)
I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ around 35,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. This means that Cro-Magnons most probably belonged (exclusively ?) to IJ or I. Nowadays haplogroup I accounts for 10 to 45% of the population in most of Europe. It is divided in four main subclades.
The megalithic structures (5000-1200 BCE) of Europe were built by I people.

[JackMack]

There are a lot of theories regarding the Neolithic contribution to European genetics. I'm curious for others' thoughts:

Genetics of the Neolithic

Main article: Genetic history of Europe

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia Archaeologists agree that the technologies associated with agriculture originated in the Levant/Near East and then spread into Europe. However, debate exists whether this resulted from an active migratory process from the Near East, or merely due to cultural contact between Europeans and Near Easterners. Currently, three models summarize the proposed pattern of spread:[5] 1. Replacement model: posits that there was a significant migration of farmers from the Fertile Crescent into Europe. Given their technological advantages, they would have displaced or absorbed the less numerous hunter-gathering populace. Thus, modern Europeans are primarily descended from these Neolithic farmers. 2. Cultural diffusion: in contrast, this model supposes that agriculture reached Europe by way of a flow of ideas and trade between the Mesolithic European population and Anatolian farmers. There was not net increase in migration during this process, and therefore, modern Europeans are descended from the "original" Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers. 3. Pioneer model: recognises that models 1) and 2) above may represent false dichotomies. This model postulates that there was an initial, small scale migration of farmers from the Near East to certain regions of Europe. They might have enjoyed localized demographic expansions due to social advantages. The subsequent spread of farming technologies throughout the rest of Europe was then carried out by Mesolithic Europeans who acquired new skill through trade and cultural interaction. Genetic studies have been utilised in the study of pre-historic population movements. On the whole, scientists agree that there is evidence for a migration during the Neolithic. However, they cannot agree on the extent of this movement. The conclusions of studies appear to be 'operator dependent'. That is, results vary depending on what underlying mutation rates are assumed, and conclusions are drawn from how the authors 'envisage' their results fit with known archaeological and historic processes. Consequently, such studies must be interpreted with caution. Cavalli-Sforza's first principal component Perhaps the first scholar to posit a large-scale Neolithic migration, based on genetic evidence, was Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza. By applying principal component analysis to data from "classical genetic markers" (protein polymorphisms from ABO blood groups, HLA loci, immunglobulins, etc), Cavalli-Sforza discovered interesting clues about the genetic makeup of Europeans. Although being very genetically homogeneous, several patterns did exist.[6] The most important one was a north-western to south-eastern cline with a Near Eastern focus. Accounting for 28% of the overall genetic diversity in the European samples in his study, he attributed the cline to the spread of agriculture from the Middle East circa 10,000 to 6,000 years ago[7]. Cavalli-Sforza's explanation of demic diffusions stipulated that the clines were due to the population expansion of neolithic farmers into a scarcely populated, hunter-gathering Europe, with little initial admixture between agriculturalists and foragers. The predicted route for this spread would have been from Anatolia to central Europe via the Balkans. However, given that the time depths of such patterns are not known, “associating them with particular demographic events is usually speculative”.[8] Apart from a demic Neolithic migration, the clines may also be compatible with other demographic scenarios (Barbujani and Bartorelle 2001), such as the initial Palaeolithic expansion, the Mesolithic (post-glacial) re-expansions.[9], or later (historic) colonizations.[10] Studies using direct DNA evidence have produced varying results. A notable proponent of Cavalli-Sforza's demic diffusion scenario is Chikhi. In his 1998 study, utilising polymorphic loci from seven hypervariable autosomal DNA loci, an autocorrelation analysis produced a clinal pattern closely matching that in Cavalli-Sforza’s study. He calculated that the separation times were no older than 10,000 years. “The simplest interpretation of these results is that the current nuclear gene pool largely reflects the westward and northward expansion of a Neolithic group”.[11]. Although the above studies propounded a 'significant' Neloithic genetic contributio, they did not quantify the exact magnitude of the genetic contribution. Dupanloup performed an admixture analysis based on several autosomal loci, mtDNA and NRY haplogroup frequencies. The study was based on the assumption that Basques were modern representatives of Palaeolithic hunter-gatherers’ gene pool, and Near Eastern peoples were a proxy population for Neolithic farmers. Subsequently, they used admixture analysis to estimate the likely components of the contemporary European gene pool contributed by the two parental populations whose members hybridized at a certain moment in the past. The study suggested that the greatest Near Eastern admixture occurs in the Balkans (~80%) and Southern Italy (~60%), whilst it is least in peoples of the British Isles (estimating only a 20% contribution). The authors concluded that the Neolithic shift to agriculture entailed major population dispersal from the Near East.[12] Results derived from analysis of the non-recombining portion of the Y- chromosomes (NRY) produced, at least initially, similar gradients to the classic demic diffusion hypothesis. Two significant studies were Semino 2000 and Rosser 2000, which identified haplogroups J2 and E1b1b (formerly E3b) as the putative genetic signatures of migrating Neolithic farmers from Anatolia[13], and therefore represent the Y-chromosomal components of a Neolithic demic diffusion[14]. This association was strengthened when King and Underhill (2002) found that there was a significant correlation between the distribution of Hg J2 and Neolithic painted pottery of the Cardium culture in European and Mediterranean sites. These 'Neolithic lineages' accounted for 22% of the total European Y chromosome gene pool, and were predominantly found in Meditteranean regions of Europe (Greece, Italy, southeastern Bulgaria, southeastern Iberia). Frequencies of Haplogroup J2 in Europe, a possible genetic signature of the Neolithic migration Distribution of Neolithic Cardial Pottery corresponds with that of Hg J2 However later Y-DNA based studies, exploiting an increased understanding of the phylogenetic relationships, performing micro-regional haplogroup frequency analysis, reveal a more complicated demographic history[15]. The studies suggest that “the large-scale clinal patterns of Hg E and Hg J reflect a mosaic of numerous small-scale, more regional population movements, replacements, and subsequent expansions overlying previous ranges”.[16] Rather than a single, large-scale 'wave of advance' from the Near East, the apparent Hg J2 cline is produced by distinct populations movements emanating from different part of the Aegean and Near East, over a period stretching from the Neolithic to the Classical Period. Similarly, haplogroup E1b1b was also thought to have been introduced into the Balkans by Near Eastern agriculturalists.[17] However, Cruciani et al. (2007) recently discovered that the large majority of haplogroup E1b1b lineages in Europe are represented by the sub-clade E1b1b1a2- V13, which is rare outside Europe. Cruciani, Battaglia and King all predict that V13 expanded from the Balkans. However, there has been no consensus as to exact timing of this expansion (King and Battalia favour a neolithic expansion, possibly coincinding with the adoption of farming by indigenous Balkaners, whilst Cruciani favours a Bronze Age expansion), nor as to where V13 actually arose (but point to somewhere in the southern Balkans or Anatolia)[18][19] Overall, Y-chromosome data seems to support the "Pioneer model", whereby heterogeneous groups of Neolithic farmers colonized selected areas of southern Europe via a primarily maritime route. Subsequent expansion of agriculture was facilitated by the adoption of its methods by indigenous Europeans, a process especially prominent in the Balkans[20]. The data from mtDNA is also interesting. European mtDNA haplogroup frequencies show little, if any, geographic patterning[21][22], a result attributed to different molecular properties of mtDNA, as well as different migratory practices between females and males (Semino 2000). The vast majority of mtDNA lineages (60–70%) have been dated to have either emerged in the Mesolithic or Palaeolithic.[23][24], whereas only 20% of mitochondrial lineages are "Neolithic". However, these conclusion have been questioned. Any undetected heterogeneity in the founder population would result in an overestimation in the age of the current population's molecular age. If this is true, then Euorpe could have been populated far more recently, eg during the Neolithic, by a more diverse founding population (Barbujani et al. 1998, from Richards 2000). As Chikhi states: “We argue that many mitochondrial lineages whose origin has been traced back to the Palaeolithic period probably reached Europe at a later time”. However, Richards et al. (2000) maintain these findings even when founding population heterogeneity is considered. In one such study, Wolfgang Haak extracted ancient mtDNA from what they present as early European farmers from the Linear Pottery Culture in central Europe. The bodies contained a 25% frequency of mtDNA N1a, a haplogroup which they assumed to be linked to the Neolithic. Today the frequency of this haplogroup is a mere 0.2%. Haak presented this as supportive evidence for a Palaeolithic European ancestry.[25] However the conclusions of Haak's study were challenged by Levy-Coffman. She suggested that Haak failed to adequately consider other demographic and evolutionary events which could have caused the scarcity of mtDNA haplogroup N1a amongst modern Europeans. Furthermore, she argued that reconstructing our biological history based only on the DNA frequencies of extant populations is misleading, challenging the idea that Basques represent a proxy population for Palaeolithic Europeans (instead she attributed their genetic uniqueness to thousand of years of endogamy). Ultimately, she sees contemporary Europeans as "an entirely new and modern mix formed as a result of a number of demographic and evolutionary events over time".[26]

[Joro]

maciamo,from which studies is that y-dna table you showed me derived?

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joro maciamo,from which studies is that y-dna table you showed me derived?

There are many sources, some unpublished, some gathered on public databases, but for the most part they are from major studies such as those listed here. The list isn't exhaustive, and also includes other studies used in references by these ones. If I had to list everything there would be several pages, so I tried to abridge. For examples Dienekes' blog alone has hundreds of references. I obviously wasn't going to spend numerous hours just to copy the links that were already on his website. Waste of time.

[Cambria Red]

I'm sure recent research has led to changes in haplogroup figures.

[javonoL21]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackMack I found the following and thought it was interesting.... For review: Haplogroup I (Y-DNA) I is the oldest haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there (apart from deep subclades of other haplogroups). It is thought to have arrived from the Middle East as haplogroup IJ around 35,000 years ago, and developed into haplogroup I approximately 25,000 years ago. This means that Cro-Magnons most probably belonged (exclusively ?) to IJ or I. Nowadays haplogroup I accounts for 10 to 45% of the population in most of Europe. It is divided in four main subclades. The megalithic structures (5000-1200 BCE) of Europe were built by I people.

Haplogroup R moved into Europe at the same time as I, 35 thousand years ago from Western Asia or Eastern Europe, I had a symbiotic relationship with R, Haplogroup I where camp followers similar to dogs, they realized they could make a living from the scraps of food we aRyan's discarded. LOL This is only a joke.

But R did move into Western Europe 30 -35 thousand years ago and found refuge in the Basque region synomously with Haplogroup I when the last ice age occured, this Ice Age is what brought about the diversity in both Haplogroups. The I and R's that where in Spain became different from the more eastern peoples. R1A is only 15 thousand years old and sprung from the Ukrainian refuge, this diversity was created by separation from the western R1B because of the last glacial maximum.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by javonoL21 Haplogroup R moved into Europe at the same time as I, 35 thousand years ago from Western Asia or Eastern Europe, I had a symbiotic relationship with R, Haplogroup I where camp followers similar to dogs, they realized they could make a living from the scraps of food we aRyan's discarded. LOL This is only a joke. But R did move into Western Europe 30 -35 thousand years ago and found refuge in the Basque region synomously with Haplogroup I when the last ice age occured, this Ice Age is what brought about the diversity in both Haplogroups. The I and R's that where in Spain became different from the more eastern peoples. R1A is only 15 thousand years old and sprung from the Ukrainian refuge, this diversity was created by separation from the western R1B because of the last glacial maximum.

R could hardly have been in Europe 30,000 years ago. All the oldest subclades of R are found in Central Asia and the Middle East. R2 is exclusively Central/South Asian.

[javonoL21]

I cannot post URL's yet, but the Aurignacian culture began around 40,000 to 35,000 and is located in France in Europe and South West Asia, since Haplogroup I holds on to hte claim of originating in Europe they could not of been Aurignacian, this culture is from Haplogroup R.

[Haganus]

But what are the proves that the people of the Aurignac culture had the haplogroup
R1B? Only because the haplogroup R1b abounds in the areas where the Basks lived?
It also is thought that the Aurignac men had red hair and blue eyes, because the
Irish have red hair and the same skull shape as the Aurignac men did.
Please can you give some proves that the Aurignac men had the haplogroup R1b?

[javonoL21]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haganus But what are the proves that the people of the Aurignac culture had the haplogroup R1B? Only because the haplogroup R1b abounds in the areas where the Basks lived? It also is thought that the Aurignac men had red hair and blue eyes, because the Irish have red hair and the same skull shape as the Aurignac men did. Please can you give some proves that the Aurignac men had the haplogroup R1b?

I never said R1B, I said R.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by javonoL21 I cannot post URL's yet, but the Aurignacian culture began around 40,000 to 35,000 and is located in France in Europe and South West Asia, since Haplogroup I holds on to hte claim of originating in Europe they could not of been Aurignacian, this culture is from Haplogroup R.

The current estimates for the age of R is about 28,000 years old. R split from P about 30,000 years ago, which itself split from NOP 35,000 years ago.

Considering that haplogroups N is mainly found in Siberia, O in East Asia, P in Central Asia, and Q from the Middle East and Central Asia to the Americas, it is extremely doubtful that R appeared in Europe. The most likely place is Central Asia.

I have explained that in the history of R1b. You can visualise this on the R1b migration map.

Even haplogroup K, parent of NOP, L and T, probably originated somewhere between the Middle East and Central Asia. This would explain the dispersal of N, O, P and Q around Asia, and the presence of L in South Asia. T is a back migration to North-East Africa, probably through the Arabian peninsula.

People of Aurignacian culture must have belonged either to haplogroup IJ (the main haplogroup in Paleolithic Europe and Middle East) or to an extinct haplogroup. All the evidence is consistent with a development of R1 and R2 in Central Asia, then a spread of R1a to the Eurasian steppes, and of R1b to Anatolia via the (northern) Middle East. Typically European subclades of R1b (R1b-S28, R1b-L21, R1b-M167) have a coalescence time of around 4500 to 5000 years ago, except R1b-S21 which is even younger (around 3500 years old).

[javonoL21]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maciamo The current estimates for the age of R is about 28,000 years old. R split from P about 30,000 years ago, which itself split from NOP 35,000 years ago.

^
^
This is what you say, whereas a Doctor of of Science says,
V
V
V
"
Y-DNA Haplogroup R is perhaps the most prominent Y-DNA lineage on Earth today. The date for its origin is in the Paleolithic Era, 35-40kya.

The origin of Haplogroup R dates to 30-35kya in the Paleolithic Era and Pleistocene Epoch. Its entry into Europe at this point coincides with the spread of the Aurignacian culture across Eurasia. Haplogroup R is further linked with the spread of proto-Indo-European languages that took hold as the early languages in large portions of Europe and Asia.
"

[Cambria Red]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maciamo Based on the Distribution of Y-chromosome DNA in Europe, here is a list of countries based on their ethnic percentages. Foreword Celts There isn't a homogeneous Celtic ethnicity. Pre-Roman Europe had a strong Celtic culture ranging from Central Europe to the British Isles and Iberia. Celtic people can be divided in these rough categories, each associated with a subclade of R1b-S116+ (subclade markers are in brackets) : - Rhine-Alpine-Italic Celts (S28) - Scottish Celts (M222) - Irish Celts (M37) - Atlantic Celts* (M167) - Basques (M65, M153) * Northern Iberia, Western France, Cornwall, Wales. Germans What people call "Germanic ethnicity" is in fact a mixture of northern continental R1b (S116-, S21+) and I haplogroups (I1 + I2b). In Scandinavia and East Germany, the inclusion of a strong Slavic component (R1a) make them a slightly different ethnicity from the English, Dutch, Belgian or West Germans. Slavs The original Slavic (or Aryan or Kurgan) people belonged to haplogroup R1a. This haplogroup is also common in Central Asia, Iran and India, thanks to the great Indo-Aryan migrations. Greco-Romans The Ancient Greeks were an admixture of European and Near-Eastern people. The paternal side shows a strong Near-Eastern component, making modern Greek Y-DNA closer to Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese and even Iraqi one than to that of Western or Northern Europe. According to Y-DNA frequencies observed in Europe, Southern Italy and the Balkans were heavily settled by the Ancient Greeks, or their Neolithic ancestors that did not yet call themselves "Greeks". We are still unsure about the original Y-DNA types of the Romans, but due to the proximity of the Greek colonies, and the fact that Etruscans were also of Near Eastern origins, it is likely that the Romans were an admixture of Near-Eastern J2, G2 and E3b with the native Italo-Celtic R1b. As the Romans played a major role in spreading Near-Eastern haplogroups in and north of the Alps, I will refer to the J2-G2-E3b admixture as Greco-Roman, and the Italic R1b just as "Celtic". Haplogroup G2 correlates strongly with the spread of J2 with a ratio of 1 G2 for 3 J2 in average, suggesting that these haplogroups spread together from Anatolia, while the European E3b had a different origin (probably in the Balkans). Most Celtic countries in Europe (R1b-S116+) Ireland : about 75% of Y-DNA Spain & Wales : about 70% Scotland : about 65% France & Portugal : about 55% Italy : about 40% Switzerland & England : about 35% Belgium : about 30% Germany : about 25% Netherlands & Denmark : about 20% Most Germanic countries in Europe (I1 + I2b + R1b-S116-) Netherlands & Iceland : about 70% of Y-DNA Sweden : about 65% Denmark : about 58% Norway : about 55% England : about 53% Belgium : about 48% Germany : about 40% Austria : about 34% Finland : about 32% Czech Republic : about 26% Switzerland : about 22% France : about 21% Slovakia : about 19% Estonia : about 18% Poland : about 14% Most Slavic countries in Europe (R1a + I2a2) Belarus & Croatia : about 70% of Y-DNA Poland : about 65% Ukraine: about 62% Russia (historical) : about 57% Bosnia : about 55% Slovakia : about 50% Bulgaria : about 47% Czech Republic : about 43% Romania : about 40% Hungary : about 37% Serbia : about 35% Most Indo-European countries (R1a + R1b) Wales : about 84% of Y-DNA Ireland : about 82% Scotland : about 80% Poland : about 73% Spain : about 72% England : about 71% Iceland & Belgium : about 65% Netherlands & Germany : about 60% Most Paleolithic European (Cro-Magnon) countries (I1 + I2) Croatia : about 51% of Y-DNA Sweden : about 44% Norway & Bulgaria : about 37% Denmark : about 36% Serbia : about 35% Iceland : about 33% Belarus & Finland : about 29% Netherlands & Hungary : about 25% Czech Republic : about 24% England, Germany & Romania : about 21% Belgium : about 20% Most Greco-Balkanic (or Near Eastern) countries in Europe (E-M78 + T + J + G2a) Greece : about 58% of Y-DNA Albania : about 48% Turkey : about 45% Italy : about 40% Macedonia Portugal : about 38% Romania : about 33% Austria & Bulgaria : about 30% Switzerland : about 25% Hungary : about 22% France : about 20% Germany : about 16% Most Uralo-Finnic countries in Europe (N1c1) Finland : about 60% of Y-DNA Latvia & Lithuania : about 40% Estonia : about 35% Russia (historical) : about 23% Sweden : about 7% ------------------- Here are a few ethnic combinations (must have at least 20% of each). I use the term "Greek" or "Greco-" as an abbreviation to mean "Near-Eastern" (actually Levant + Anatolia + Greece + Balkans), i.e. the people associated with the early farming. Most Greco-Celtic countries (R1b + E + T + G2a + J2) Portugal : about 90% of Y-DNA Italy : about 82% France : about 75% Switzerland : about 60% Most Italo-Celto-Germanic countries (R1b + I) Netherlands : about 95% of Y-DNA Ireland & Wales : about 90% England & Scotland : about 85% Belgium : about 78% Denmark & France : about 75% Germany : about 65% Switzerland : about 58% Italy : about 55% Most Slavo-Germanic countries Iceland : about 95% of Y-DNA Sweden & Norway : about 85% Czech Republic : about 72% Austria & Slovakia : about 65% Most Greco-Slavic countries Ukraine : about 85% of Y-DNA Serbia & Greece : about 80% Albania & Bulgaria : about 77% Romania : about 70% Hungary : about 65% Austria : about 60% Most Uralo-Slavic countries Lithuania : about 85% of Y-DNA Latvia & Russia : about 80% Estonia : about 70%

I believe some of this figures require revision.

[Maciamo]

Quote:

Originally Posted by javonoL21 ^ ^ This is what you say, whereas a Doctor of of Science says, V V V " Y-DNA Haplogroup R is perhaps the most prominent Y-DNA lineage on Earth today. The date for its origin is in the Paleolithic Era, 35-40kya. The origin of Haplogroup R dates to 30-35kya in the Paleolithic Era and Pleistocene Epoch. Its entry into Europe at this point coincides with the spread of the Aurignacian culture across Eurasia. Haplogroup R is further linked with the spread of proto-Indo-European languages that took hold as the early languages in large portions of Europe and Asia. "

No, this is what the ISOGG says (they are the reference in terms of Y-DNA haplogroups and age estimates) :

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISOGG Y-DNA haplogroup R is believed to have arisen approximately 27,000 years ago in Asia. The two currently defined subclades are R1 and R2. * Haplogroup R1 is estimated to have arisen during the height of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM), about 18,500 years ago, most likely in southwestern Asia.

What are your sources ?

[secherbernard]

Quote:

Originally Posted by javonoL21 ^ ^ This is what you say, whereas a Doctor of of Science says, V V V " Y-DNA Haplogroup R is perhaps the most prominent Y-DNA lineage on Earth today. The date for its origin is in the Paleolithic Era, 35-40kya. The origin of Haplogroup R dates to 30-35kya in the Paleolithic Era and Pleistocene Epoch. Its entry into Europe at this point coincides with the spread of the Aurignacian culture across Eurasia. Haplogroup R is further linked with the spread of proto-Indo-European languages that took hold as the early languages in large portions of Europe and Asia. "

Javolno, this is the old R theory, but it seems now this old theory is obsolete...
R1 is now considered to have originated 18,500 BP (see Karafet 2008) and R1b is now supposed to have entered in Europe with Indo european migrations.

Bernard