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View Poll Results: Should the Iraq war be considered legally justified?

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Thread: Iraq War -- Illegal? Legal?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    The fighting for Iraq only lasted the first few months, the next years of chaos was caused by sectarian violence between sunni, shia, kurdish groups, and al-qaeda. To blame america for these lunatics actions is unjust. If they went through with their original plans to divide iraq three ways; sunni, shia, kurdish, things wouldn't have dragged along. This didn't go through because Turkey adn Iran fear of Kurdish seperatism and pressured america not to do it. Not to meantion Turkey made matter worse by bombing northern iraq.
    if it was finished in few months why US is in Iraq for 7,5 years?
    why US doesnt control the kurdish terrorists in north iraq?
    where is the global terrorists that US came for?
    Where is the nuclear weapons US talked about?
    Why there was no internal ethnic problems before US invasion?
    would you like US come to your country to bring democracy?
    Do you think US afraid of Iran and Turkey to realize their plan?

  2. #77
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    [QUOTE=LeBrok;362670]
    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    The fighting for Iraq only lasted the first few months, the next years of chaos was caused by sectarian violence between sunni, shia, kurdish groups, and al-qaeda. To blame america for these lunatics actions is unjust. If they went through with their original plans to divide iraq three ways; sunni, shia, kurdish, things wouldn't have dragged along. QUOTE]

    Good point. US won war with Germany and Japan and they rebuilt very quickly to be prosperous countries. Iraq is a mess because of internal and external factions fighting there, and not because US wants to keep Iraq a mess.

    US already spent a trillion dollars in Iraq, do you guys know how much oil you can buy for this money? Probably all Iraqi oil. So why would you go to the war instead of just buying? Same money and fewer people killed, right?
    The problem was the stability of prices and uninterrupted supply of oil, and Saddam that already caused two wars in the region. Saddam was sadistic and cruel dictator, but this reason was just an icing on the cake, when it came to getting rid of him.

    Barbarian, since WW2 US have army inside Germany and Japan, don't you think they would be the top candidates to control and benefit of them? hey are rich countries and this is where US could make the most bucks, right? Again why they would spend trillions to control poor countries, to loose money? Where is the sense of it. They could make a trillion a year taxing just Germany and Japan.

    Please show me where is the money in it. Money makes most of the sense of most situations in politics and economy. You said that US is good in printing dollars and world wants it. Why US would bother spending trillions and sacrificing lives, if they could just buy oil and gold etc, right? Wouldn't you take the easy way?
    lebrok,
    US is controlled by companies, US goverment spent this money to their own companies. they took the money from their people and from ıraq oil and gave it to their companies.

    The money on earth comes from industry or resources. US cannot sell their products because of competition issues. they prefer to sell their dollar, weapon and arrest of others goods.

    Dollar is a magic, if nobody believes it disappears. saddam was saying to sell their oil with Euro. So, US showed everybody that he is the boss. And now they want to create a country that will obey their rule. just like GB created a country called kuwait that was never existed before.

    About germany and japan issue: even US cannot say them to give tax each year.they are global actors.

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    Hmm.. The problems in Iraq were caused by the British. They drew the map so several ethnic groups live in 1 country, like they did everywhere. Devide and rule.
    So it's only logic to split Iraq in ethnic countries. Of course the Americans don't support that, because they love the Sunnies and the Sjias killing each other.
    Just like they supported both Iraq and Iran with weapons when they were at war with each other. Big profit!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Hmm.. The problems in Iraq were caused by the British. They drew the map so several ethnic groups live in 1 country, like they did everywhere. Devide and rule.
    So it's only logic to split Iraq in ethnic countries. Of course the Americans don't support that, because they love the Sunnies and the Sjias killing each other.
    Just like they supported both Iraq and Iran with weapons when they were at war with each other. Big profit!
    Yes, quite contrary to the Dutch! Whether is was South Africa, Suriname, Indonesia or elsewhere, they respected the local people and cultures, drew the map according to the local ethnic groups, let them speak their language, didn't impose their language and culture on others, made locals to colonial rulers and never used violence. Of course they came only in peace and without any profit intention...

    Your paranoid hatred towards the English speaking world is getting ridiculous!

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    [...]
    i dont think US control germany economically. in contrast germany has economical power but needs political and armed force to be leading country against US dominance in the world. so they support EU to rach their aim. Why do you think they feed greece, portugal etc. to go to heaven?
    [...]
    So you think that we (Germans) want to overtake the US as a superpower? Infiltrating politically and economically into all other European countries for to raise a giant army in the end that will withstand US troops?

    Crazy and paranoid!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Yes, quite contrary to the Dutch! Whether is was South Africa, Suriname, Indonesia or elsewhere, they respected the local people and cultures, drew the map according to the local ethnic groups, let them speak their language, didn't impose their language and culture on others, made locals to colonial rulers and never used violence. Of course they came only in peace and without any profit intention...

    Your paranoid hatred towards the English speaking world is getting ridiculous!
    The Dutch didn't have such a fascist regime like the British.
    In fact, the Dutch didn't have colonies.
    What you mention are parts of the same Kingdom.
    The Dutch couldn't even settle in the overseas areas.

    Only if they got a job offered by the VOC or WIC.

    And, a lot of Germans worked for the VOC too..
    So.. Pot kettle black..

    The Dutch from the beginning had only a few trading posts, a fortress and some farming for supplying the ships. That was the case in Kaapstad (South Africa) and Batavia (Djakarta Indonesia).

    While the Dutch traded and bargained with the local aristocracy, the British started to conquer entire areas for mining purposes.
    Gold, diamonds, oil.

    Of course the Dutch started to follow the same policy like the British, but that was after 1830.

    Apartheid is a Dutch word, but it was brought to South Africa by the British.
    The British invented the concentration camps. Not the German Nazi's.
    Those camps were used to get the Dutch Boers under control by arresting them by the thousands.
    The same trick they used in Malaya to suppress left wing independence fighters after ww2.

    And then we have the numerous other countries where the British rampaged.

    And I don't hate them.
    I just don't like they steal, and always talk like they are Santaclaus.

    The British and Americans would be more sympathetic to me if they just admitted they were assholes.

    You can be the strongest nation in the world, but stop whining about good intentions. Is that so difficult?

    BTW..
    The Dutch even respected the local languages in Indonesia.
    The Dutch learned to speak Indonesian.

    And another thing.. Sukarno, the first President of Indonesia, studied in The Netherlands, and was a very good lawyer. He was a bright man, I consider him in the same group of influential people like Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    So you think that we (Germans) want to overtake the US as a superpower? Infiltrating politically and economically into all other European countries for to raise a giant army in the end that will withstand US troops?

    Crazy and paranoid!
    Calm down, he didn't say that.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    So you think that we (Germans) want to overtake the US as a superpower? Infiltrating politically and economically into all other European countries for to raise a giant army in the end that will withstand US troops?

    Crazy and paranoid!
    i guess, i couldnt express myself. i say that germany dont want to left the controll of the world to US. but you need not only economical power but political and strong army also. so, to create a project called EU fits to them. these days you need strong army not only for fighting but also to control some critical parts of the world. otherwise you are just a developed country not a power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    if it was finished in few months why US is in Iraq for 7,5 years?
    To help rebuild the country and bring stabability against the sectarian violence which continues even today. You here Shia or Sunni groups blowing up each others mosque's or suicide bombing in market places, they arn't targeting NATO soldiers they're targetting civilians but people blame america, I don't know why.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    why US doesnt control the kurdish terrorists in north iraq?
    The Kurds now live in a semi-autonomous state in northern Iraq called kurdistan. Unlike the other groups they are not fighitng for religious reasons but for independance. I don't concider these people terrorists, I don't think America does either.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    where is the global terrorists that US came for?
    This is a misconception, they never said the 9/11 terrorists came form there, america was saying Saddam has WMD's

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    Where is the nuclear weapons US talked about?
    There were no WMD's, this was a lie, or bad intelligence on the CIA part, dunno which one.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    Why there was no internal ethnic problems before US invasion?
    Ignorance, the Sadam Hussain regime was killing of Kurds off by the thousands in Northern Iraq, you being a turk and the situation with kurds in Turkey you probably don't mind but the civilized people do.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    would you like US come to your country to bring democracy?
    If my dictator was Saddam I would, or any dictator for that matter, wether or not I would be educated enough under this regime to realise this fact is a different matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    Do you think US afraid of Iran and Turkey to realize their plan?
    Scared? No, took into consideration? yes. I know Turkey is very scared of the prospect of kurdish seccesion I don't know how Iran feels about it.

  10. #85
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    To help rebuild the country and bring stabability against the sectarian violence which continues even today. You here Shia or Sunni groups blowing up each others mosque's or suicide bombing in market places, they arn't targeting NATO soldiers they're targetting civilians but people blame america, I don't know why.

    People blame US because millions of people have killed after US decided to bring democracy there. in saddam era there was a christian minister in the goverment, now muslims kills each other. it is a good way to divide and rule.


    The Kurds now live in a semi-autonomous state in northern Iraq called kurdistan. Unlike the other groups they are not fighitng for religious reasons but for independance. I don't concider these people terrorists, I don't think America does either.

    US calls them as terrorist, because they come to turkey to kill kurdish people that does not support PKK and turkish soldiers and go back to ıraq again. You must firstly search before writing.

    This is a misconception, they never said the 9/11 terrorists came form there, america was saying Saddam has WMD's. There were no WMD's, this was a lie, or bad intelligence on the CIA part, dunno which one.

    so what was the reason US came to Iraq. Do you think US spend trillions (?) for democracy in iraq? i hope there is no bad intelligence about your country.

    Ignorance, the Sadam Hussain regime was killing of Kurds off by the thousands in Northern Iraq, you being a turk and the situation with kurds in Turkey you probably don't mind but the civilized people do.

    you are the one as a "civilized person" to defend an invasion and dictatorship here.

    If my dictator was Saddam I would, or any dictator for that matter, wether or not I would be educated enough under this regime to realise this fact is a different matter.

    who will decide that your governors are dictator or not? america?


    Scared? No, took into consideration? yes. I know Turkey is very scared of the prospect of kurdish seccesion I don't know how Iran feels about it.

    So, you believe that US came to this land, stay there 7,5 years, spend trillions but take poor turkeys desire in to consideration not to do what he wants to do. you must be comedian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    The Dutch didn't have such a fascist regime like the British.
    In fact, the Dutch didn't have colonies.
    What you mention are parts of the same Kingdom.
    So, does this make a difference?


    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    And, a lot of Germans worked for the VOC too..
    So.. Pot kettle black..
    Did you seriously think I wanted to protect Germany from it's historical activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Of course the Dutch started to follow the same policy like the British, but that was after 1830.
    Ah I see, that makes everything ok then!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    Apartheid is a Dutch word, but it was brought to South Africa by the British.
    The British invented the concentration camps. Not the German Nazi's.
    Those camps were used to get the Dutch Boers under control by arresting them by the thousands.
    The same trick they used in Malaya to suppress left wing independence fighters after ww2.
    I already know now that Afrikaaners and Nazi Germans were British victims in reality. You don't have to go any further!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    And I don't hate them.
    I just don't like they steal, and always talk like they are Santaclaus.

    The British and Americans would be more sympathetic to me if they just admitted they were assholes.

    Regulus can come in now!


    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    And another thing.. Sukarno, the first President of Indonesia, studied in The Netherlands, and was a very good lawyer. He was a bright man, I consider him in the same group of influential people like Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.
    Here is the Wikipedia quote of Sukarno:
    Sukarno was the leader of his country's struggle for independence from the Netherlands and was Indonesia's first President from 1945 to 1967.

    Huh? Struggle? Independence? Why and of what?


    Listen, I don't want to debate about colonialism with you now as we are getting off-topic! I just want to make clear that no European country acted or acts better than any other!
    Last edited by Mzungu mchagga; 21-12-10 at 16:33.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    i guess, i couldnt express myself. i say that germany dont want to left the controll of the world to US. but you need not only economical power but political and strong army also. so, to create a project called EU fits to them. these days you need strong army not only for fighting but also to control some critical parts of the world. otherwise you are just a developed country not a power.
    What is wrong with being only a developed country and not a superpower? You shouldn't conclude from the aims of your country on others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    People blame US because millions of people have killed after US decided to bring democracy there. in saddam era there was a christian minister in the goverment, now muslims kills each other. it is a good way to divide and rule.
    Like I said before, islamic sectarian violence caused the chaos in Iraq because of old hated between sunni and shia muslims. Blamming the US is rather an uneducated responce, and just anti-american sentiment.



    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    US calls them as terrorist, because they come to turkey to kill kurdish people that does not support PKK and turkish soldiers and go back to ıraq again. You must firstly search before writing.
    They call them terrorists only formally to appease Turkey while America uses your country for its own geopolitical purposes. If they really thought they were terrorists you would have seen ground offensives in the north over the 7 years but there wasn't. America and Isreal might actually be helping the PKK by sending them weapons, these are only rumors.


    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    so what was the reason US came to Iraq. Do you think US spend trillions (?) for democracy in iraq? i hope there is no bad intelligence about your country.
    America came to Iraq so urgently after Afghanistan because of oil. Iraq has huge amounts of oil reserves in the hands of the Hussain regeme, this was a national security issue for America, Saddam could have took the world economy hostage through blackmail. Of course you never heard about it because you're not aloud to talk about Oil in the media but it was. Him being a dictator, his invasion of Quwait, his killings against the kurds, his suppport for terrorism in the region, made the war very legal.


    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    you are the one as a "civilized person" to defend an invasion and dictatorship here.
    I defend that iraq is now a democracy and Iraqis have more freedoms than it ever did with Saddam. I don't defend the actions of the Islamic sectarian terrorists who kill people in the name of Allah who doesn't exsist, and only reason for being is to cause chaos.


    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    who will decide that your governors are dictator or not? america?
    Its pretty clear what governments are dictatorships or not. If they kill and suppress their own people they are dictatorships.


    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    So, you believe that US came to this land, stay there 7,5 years, spend trillions but take poor turkeys desire in to consideration not to do what he wants to do. you must be comedian.
    Well Americas relationship with turkey was much different and I would agrue much better 7 years ago. Events that happened since then have changed things, we'll see how much more they change in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    What is wrong with being only a developed country and not a superpower? You shouldn't conclude from the aims of your country on others.
    nothing wrong for me and for you. but goverments work different, all countries want to move to next level.

    so, do you think that turkey aims to be superpower, but not germany? remember the wars in last century. was it for a gold medal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Like I said before, islamic sectarian violence caused the chaos in Iraq because of old hated between sunni and shia muslims. Blamming the US is rather an uneducated responce, and just anti-american sentiment.





    They call them terrorists only formally to appease Turkey while America uses your country for its own geopolitical purposes. If they really thought they were terrorists you would have seen ground offensives in the north over the 7 years but there wasn't. America and Isreal might actually be helping the PKK by sending them weapons, these are only rumors.




    America came to Iraq so urgently after Afghanistan because of oil. Iraq has huge amounts of oil reserves in the hands of the Hussain regeme, this was a national security issue for America, Saddam could have took the world economy hostage through blackmail. Of course you never heard about it because you're not aloud to talk about Oil in the media but it was. Him being a dictator, his invasion of Quwait, his killings against the kurds, his suppport for terrorism in the region, made the war very legal.




    I defend that iraq is now a democracy and Iraqis have more freedoms than it ever did with Saddam. I don't defend the actions of the Islamic sectarian terrorists who kill people in the name of Allah who doesn't exsist, and only reason for being is to cause chaos.




    Its pretty clear what governments are dictatorships or not. If they kill and suppress their own people they are dictatorships.




    Well Americas relationship with turkey was much different and I would agrue much better 7 years ago. Events that happened since then have changed things, we'll see how much more they change in the future.
    it is impossible to understand you.
    you say that you are civilized but defend a country who invaded another country without the permission of UN.
    you say that US wanted to bring democracy and peace to this country but everyday people are dying there and a totatl uncontrolled area called as northern ıraq or kurdistan.
    you say that turkey and US are allied but at the same time US is supporting kurds (?).
    you claim there is democracy in iraq. it is funny. read this again: http://www.alternet.org/world/123818...llion_orphans/

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    nothing wrong for me and for you. but goverments work different, all countries want to move to next level.

    so, do you think that turkey aims to be superpower, but not germany? remember the wars in last century. was it for a gold medal.

    Why does Erdogan want to join the Fourth Reich then?
    Or is it Turkey's "next level"?

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    it is impossible to understand you.
    you say that you are civilized but defend a country who invaded another country without the permission of UN.
    you say that US wanted to bring democracy and peace to this country but everyday people are dying there and a totatl uncontrolled area called as northern ıraq or kurdistan.
    you say that turkey and US are allied but at the same time US is supporting kurds (?).
    you claim there is democracy in iraq. it is funny. read this again: http://www.alternet.org/world/123818/iraq's_shocking_human_toll:_about_1_million_killed ,_4.5_million_displaced,_1-2_million_widows,_5_million_orphans/
    You don't understand my perspective because its been clear in my other discussions with you, you don't understand what human rights are. You think that the iraqis are victims of america, they are not, they are the victims of islamic sectarian violence and of the saddam regeme, and your link you provide just proves this.

    The United Nations is slowing losing its importance in the world. It was ok when America and Europe was in control because they understand what human rights are. It has gotten to the point in the UN where countries in the middle east and east asia can have influence over decisions, these same places which do not understand or respect human rights.

    Let me put it in black and white for you. There are the good guys and there are the bad guys. The good guys want freedom and human rights for everyone. The Bad guys are the ones who don't, they use whatever means they can to stop the good guys from doing this. Put that into the context of geopolitics, are you a good guy or bad guy barbarian?

    Iraq democracy, a peaceful and lasting solution to Iraq, enjoy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12047721

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    You don't understand my perspective because its been clear in my other discussions with you, you don't understand what human rights are. You think that the iraqis are victims of america, they are not, they are the victims of islamic sectarian violence and of the saddam regeme, and your link you provide just proves this.

    The United Nations is slowing losing its importance in the world. It was ok when America and Europe was in control because they understand what human rights are. It has gotten to the point in the UN where countries in the middle east and east asia can have influence over decisions, these same places which do not understand or respect human rights.

    Let me put it in black and white for you. There are the good guys and there are the bad guys. The good guys want freedom and human rights for everyone. The Bad guys are the ones who don't, they use whatever means they can to stop the good guys from doing this. Put that into the context of geopolitics, are you a good guy or bad guy barbarian?

    Iraq democracy, a peaceful and lasting solution to Iraq, enjoy.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12047721
    so, as a son of a country who created democracy, you prefer US desicion over common desicion of countries. as a barbarian i dont. and i am not bad guy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    Why does Erdogan want to join the Fourth Reich then?
    Or is it Turkey's "next level"?
    although erdogan do not want to join EU, at least half of the country wants to join EU. because they think they will have better standards.

    you must think about "why US wants turkey join EU desparately"

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    so, as a son of a country who created democracy, you prefer US desicion over common desicion of countries. as a barbarian i dont. and i am not bad guy.
    Um, its precily that that I side with the United States. These dictators and islamic fundmentalists are 100% against democracy. I think you like the concept of democracy more than dictatorship, you said you were a good guy, so you should be happy Iraq is moving foward. There was a high price to pay, there always is for freedoms, Greeks back in the 1820`s can attest to that ;)

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    although erdogan do not want to join EU, at least half of the country wants to join EU. because they think they will have better standards.

    you must think about "why US wants turkey join EU desparately"
    That's an easy question to answer, so Turkey doesn't align itself with other asian powers like Iran, china, Russia. American and british diplomats already said this in interviews, it's not a secret.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    That's an easy question to answer, so Turkey doesn't align itself with other asian powers like Iran, china, Russia. American and british diplomats already said this in interviews, it's not a secret.
    US do not divide iraq because of turkey. they want to put us in EU to prevent we align with asians. if we are such an important country why EU doesnt want turkey. because turkey everytime obeys what US wants. and EU doesnot want to give a powerfull position in EU to "little US". tha is also you can hear from diplomats.

    Turkey can never align with china or russia, because turkish people hated communism (it was a US proboganda during cold war). and for this reason they are still our natural competitors. iran is too radical even for turkey.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    you said you were a good guy, so you should be happy Iraq is moving foward.


    i guess you said all and i did so. so, see you in another topic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    Um, its precily that that I side with the United States. These dictators and islamic fundmentalists are 100% against democracy. I think you like the concept of democracy more than dictatorship, you said you were a good guy, so you should be happy Iraq is moving foward. There was a high price to pay, there always is for freedoms, Greeks back in the 1820`s can attest to that ;)
    You still don't get it!!'
    Dictators in a lot of countries were/are put into their position by the British and/or American secret services.
    A dictator is easy to deal with. The problem arises, when a dictator gets smart, and no longer wants to be used as a puppet by the Brits and/or Americans.
    Just like Saddam Hussein. Then he get's the blame for all the shit in the country, caused by Al Qaeda, a group of CIA agents that take care of a pretext for war.

    The Bush and Bin Laden dynasties had common interests.
    It's not very difficult to add things up.

    BTW.. Barbarian.. The real reason why Europeans can't accept Turkey being member of the EU is that Turkey doesn't admit the genocide on Armenians and also Greeks.
    It's as simple as that.

    And the British fooled your people in the Krim war.
    The British attacked Gallipoli during WWI just for the same reason.
    They wanted to control the Russian fleet, and Turks and Australians died for that.
    It was a second version of the battle of Troy.

    How stupid!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    ....

    BTW.. Barbarian.. The real reason why Europeans can't accept Turkey being member of the EU is that Turkey doesn't admit the genocide on Armenians and also Greeks.
    It's as simple as that.

    And the British fooled your people in the Krim war.
    The British attacked Gallipoli during WWI just for the same reason.
    They wanted to control the Russian fleet, and Turks and Australians died for that.
    It was a second version of the battle of Troy.

    How stupid!
    i dont think eu care about genocide too much. may be cyprus can be a good reason. because it has a political meaning, while armenia stuff is history. i believe eu care about economy, political stability or toughness and culturel commons which are disadvantages for turkey.

    additionally, turkey cannot share its hegemony inside the country which is a characteristic barrier for turkey, if eu would even let in turkey in to the community.

    can you explain greece genocide, never heard about it?

    i also did not get "
    And the British fooled your people in the Krim war.
    The British attacked Gallipoli during WWI just for the same reason."

    this part. although i know that kirim war was a stick by GB.

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