Left vs. Right: Political Discussion

[Censport]

sabro, you're quoting Chomsky? I usually make fun of people for doing that. But I'll try to remain civil here. Old Noam might be articulate, but he's hardly centered is he?

Anyway, back to the fray:

Reform - Just a few posts ago, you were agreeing with me that social programs were easily taken advantage of thanks to human nature (at least, that's what I thought you said). Then you define reform as "gut to the core"? You know how negotiation works, right?
"Okay, we're gonna end this program."
"You can't do that, people will starve!"
"Then let's meet halfway."
If the first team wanted to negotiate by starting the middle, halfway would still be bloated and inefficient. The Democrats in congress know this and start from waaaaay deep in Socialist territory. Daschle was very good at that.

Military pay - One of Bush's campaign platforms in 2000 was the increase in pay and the rebuilding of the military. I don't remember him fighting that.

Anti-military - I didn't mean to accuse you personally of doing such things. And yes, such events actually happened (one of my uncles did two tours of ground duty in Vietnam). But think about it: They were anti-establishment activists. Was Barry Goldwater in that crowd? No, they were the predecessors of Code Pink and other such groups. And as a matter of fact, I can visualize LBJ tossing some _____, sans bag. Not at soldiers, though. He just had that kind of personality.

Liberal media - How about ABC, CBS, NBC, NRP, PBS, CNN, MSNBC, BBC, Paula Zahn, Peter Jennings, Dan Rather, Paul Begela, James Carville, perky Katie Couric, Matt Lauer, Aaron Brown, Bill Moyers, the entire staff of 60 Minutes, David Letterman, Newsweek, Time, The Boston Globe, The Tennessean, The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Los Angeles Times, The Associated Press, Reuters News Service, Terry Gross, Juan Williams (a regular on Fox News), Melissa Block, Steve Inskeep, Michelle Norris, Robert Seigal, Cokie Roberts, Corey Flintoff, Christiane Amanpour, Julie Chen, Tim Russert, Chris Matthews, Al Franken and Don Imus? And those are just the media people! Three of the people on your list are on my list, Pat and Alan are politicians (technically, not successfully) and not full-time media, and almost everyone you've listed works at one station!

And if you don't like Wolf Blitzer, I can't claim to be a fan but I'll trade Bill O'Reilly for him any day!

Lunch break is over. I'll check back later.

PS: Thanks for keeping this civil. On another Japanese forum, I've been called a Nazi, Fascist, warmonger and other cute names.

[Duo]

Ha, let's not forget that lousy lying ann coulter, that rush guy, and also wats wrong with chomsky? Well i guess he and Howard Zinn are like the anti christ of the republicans. I seen fox news, and lemme just say, that's one awesome piece of entertainment, amazing news coverage, is just so hilarous, they say those things like they actually mean it.

[Censport]

Ha, let's not forget that lousy lying ann coulter, that rush guy, and also wats wrong with chomsky? Well i guess he and Howard Zinn are like the anti christ of the republicans. I seen fox news, and lemme just say, that's one awesome piece of entertainment, amazing news coverage, is just so hilarous, they say those things like they actually mean it.

I haven't read any of Coulter's books, just a few columns, but if you would read Ann Coulter, you would see that she has these little things called footnotes all through her work. They refer to the research that has gone into her work. I dare to suggest that she has more research notes in one of her works than Chomsky has in, ah, all of his.

Is something wrong with Rush? Nobody is able to challenge his claim of being right 98.5% of the time. Or maybe he means right-of-center. Hmmm.

In any case, Atlanta-based radio host Neal Boortz (who is a Liberterian) challenged his listeners to provide evidence of bias at Fox News. Not the commentary shows, like Hannity and Colmes, but in the actual news reports. Those start with Uma Pemmaraju (or my favorite, Dari Alexander yummy!) sitting behind the desk and reading what's on the prompter to tell you what's going on in the world today.

So Boortz started this... let me think... last spring? Late Winter? Almost a year ago. You know what? Nobody's proved any bias from Fox News, to the right or left. And yet there are websites and books devoted to reporting left-wing bias in the established media. Some are even from people who used to work for such networks!

As far as what's wrong with Chomsky, how about that he's an anti-American zealot?

[No-name]

In November, Tom DeLay and the House Republicans voted to cut the budget for military housing by $500 million. This act delays new housing for 50,000 military families. Remind your friends in the military of this when the roof leaks next time.

[No-name]

Check out this editorial from the Army Times: (more liberal media?) It's a bit dated (predating the last raise) but still valid.

http://www.armytimes.com/story.php?f...59-1989240.php
July 02, 2003

Editorial: Nothing but lip service

In recent months, President Bush and the Republican-controlled Congress have missed no opportunity to heap richly deserved praise on the military. But talk is cheap Ñ and getting cheaper by the day, judging from the nickel-and-dime treatment the troops are getting lately.

[No-name]

I cited Chomsky. You referenced the Media Research Center. We're even.

[No-name]

Also remember that in March, Bush and GOP congressmen voted in new overtime rules which specifically cut the DOL's requirement to pay overtime in professional fields who have recieved "training in the armed forces."

[Censport]

Gee sabro, do you think the fact that we're at war might have something to do with the budget?

[Duo]

I haven't read any of Coulter's books, just a few columns, but if you would read Ann Coulter, you would see that she has these little things called footnotes all through her work. They refer to the research that has gone into her work. I dare to suggest that she has more research notes in one of her works than Chomsky has in, ah, all of his.



As far as what's wrong with Chomsky, how about that he's an anti-American zealot?

Yes she does, but we cheked up one a couple of her footnotes with one of my professors, and guess what, what she said by refering to those sources and what the sources actually said did not match.

Why is Chomsky anti-American, cuz he says how it like it really is, or cuz he has a different view ?

[No-name]

What does that have to do with cutting housing funding and changing overtime rules?

Well anyway back to leftist ideas:
86 percent of the American Public say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement. 83% agree with the goals of the environmental movement. 94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of handguns Eight in ten believe health insurance should be provided equally. 62% want to change laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders go to prison. 85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians. 58% support labor unions. (citations left off for length reasons)

Let's work on healthcare, poverty, emergency services, crime, and especially education.

Meanwhile conservatives would like to cut taxes for the rich. Erase gains in civil and women's rights. Deregulate industries in areas of worker pay, safety, rights, and pollution. Cut environmental protection. Sell off, our forrests, gas and oil reserves. Ease gun laws. Privatize social security. Send money to private and religious schools while they cut the funding for public education. And what's that PATRIOT-USA act about? You call Janet Reno a fascist, what if she had these powers? It's no wonder that since Reagan, any moderate Republican has to tack on "compassionate" to the conservative label.

I hear we caught al-Zarqawi. (Excellent. Maybe he knows where those WMD's are.)

[Censport]

Yes she does, but we cheked up one a couple of her footnotes with one of my professors, and guess what, what she said by refering to those sources and what the sources actually said did not match.

In another thread, you said you would provide someone with that research from your professor. We're still waiting. Besides, "one a couple"[sic]? Out of what, thousands? That's still better than Dan Rather or Jayson Blair.

Why is Chomsky anti-American, cuz he says how it like it really is, or cuz he has a different view ?

I don't know if Chomsky has come out and declared himself anti-American (heck, who does besides Islamic terrorists?), but you can't deny that he is an anti-establishment extremist. Also, how do you know that he's telling it like it is? Can you prove it, or does he just have the same view as you do? Someone once told me that "Chomsky really makes you think." Of course, I couldn't help but reply "But he does he make you know?" Thinking is great, but proving and knowing are better.

[Censport]

Well, you certainly consider yourself an expert on conservative views. Where the Sam Heck did you learn that? Obviously not from a conservative!

What does that have to do with cutting housing funding and changing overtime rules?

If you're spending everything on keeping an overseas war running, you have to cut back somewhere else. Just because it's U.S. government money doesn't mean that there's an endless supply. Maybe you could persuade Kerry or Edwards to vote for military budget increase after they vote for it?

86 percent of the American Public say they agree with the goals of the Civil Rights movement.

Ah, that was 40 years ago. Your point is what, that the remaining 14% are all conservative Republicans?

83% agree with the goals of the environmental movement.

...with the stated goals of the environmental movement. What about the BANANA (Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anything)environmentalists? Do 83% agree with the goals of ELF (Earth Liberation Front)? Ever notice that the people you see at environmental rallies are the same ones at anti-capitalist functions?

94% want federal safety regulations enacted on the manufacture and use of handguns.

What?!?!? You mean there are NO federal safety regulations regarding the manufacture of firearms?!?!? Riiiight. As for the same percentage applying to handgun use, I'd like to see your stats on that. How about all those great guns laws? Doing a lot of good, huh? Article

Eight in ten believe health insurance should be provided equally.

80%? Provided by whom? Are you suggesting that 80% of all Americans want socialized medicine, or better yet, HillaryCare? What about Bush taking the biggest step towards socialized medicine in the country's history? Y'all have been awfully quiet about that (except to opine that it wasn't enough). Even Teddy Kennedy couldn't get that job done.

62% want to change laws so that fewer nonviolent offenders go to prison.

This is a left/right issue?

85% support equal opportunity in the workplace for gays and lesbians.

You mean that gays and lesbians are turned down for jobs en masse? First I've heard of it. What about the EOE or EEOC or whatever it's called?

58% support labor unions.

Once again, I'd like to see the survey. Labor unions are one thing, but labor unions becoming partisan political machines and forgetting to represent their members... Uh, hello NEA, Teamsters, Firefighters union?

And now...

Meanwhile conservatives would like to cut taxes for the rich.

It's the rich that pay taxes. It's the rich that invest their wealth in industry. If you don't pay taxes but want a tax cut, that's income redistribution.

Erase gains in civil and women's rights.

Absolute, complete myth. I seem to remember a teacher talking about a black student in his class who believed that if Bush were elected (2000) that the country would return to slavery. Sounds like you and that kid have the same sources.

Deregulate industries in areas of worker pay, safety, rights, and pollution.

Nope, waaaay nope, nope, and.... I think I read something about that last one not long ago. Let me see if I can find it.

Cut environmental protection.

See: BANANA, above.

Sell off, our forrests, gas and oil reserves.

You mean the private lands that Clinton confiscated during his term and labeled 'parks'? And wasn't it Clinton who sold our reserves as a political move, and then the oil went overseas? Japan, wasn't it? I don't remember CNN or NPR screaming about Bush selling our reserves.

Ease gun laws.

You mean fight the enactment of new laws which would prevent legal owners from using the weapons in self-defense, right?

Privatize social security.

I think that's a bloody good idea.

Send money to private and religious schools while they cut the funding for public education.

Black and Hispanic parents are overwhelmingly in favor of school vouchers. They want their kids out of underperforming public schools where teacher performance isn't even checked, much less rewarded/disciplined. Kids aren't passing? Lower the standards again! Do you have something against minority kids from poor families being able to attend private schools, or do you want to keep those schools for rich white kids, like Al Gore's kids, Chelsea Clinton, Kerry's kids, Edward's kids and the Kennedys?

And what's that PATRIOT-USA act about? You call Janet Reno a fascist, what if she had these powers?

I dunno, haven't read it. You? And yes, I do call Janet Reno a fascist. She didn't need the Patriot Act to violate court orders, kill children, raid private farms and kidnap a kid to ship to a communist dictator for use a propaganda tool. Oh, and then there's the blocking of investigations into her boss. I actually remember a new conference where she said, and I quote: "We're not going to investigate until we know all the facts." What the Sam Heck is an investigation for?!?!? And just think, Ashcroft hasn't committed any such acts, and he's had the Patriot Act.

We caught Zarqawi? COOL!!! Think we'll behead him?

Edited: Some days I just can't type.

[No-name]

Got your attention. All those stats indicate that the American public is actually more liberal on specific issues than most people think. The media is actually less liberal than the american public at large. (Caveat: you can get stats to say almost anything.) That you can speak for black and hispanic parents is great. Tell me what else they want because here in California, they have resoundingly defeated voucher twice.

The point about the housing and the overtime pay is that Republicans don't have the line soldier in mind at all. Ten strykers, or one F22 could pay for this. (We could use 20 old Gavins for a bit and a couple of F16's until the budget crisis is over, or think of this: repeal one of those rich tax cuts?) The federal government doesn't pay your overtime (unless you work for them). Cutting the overtime pay for veterans actually costs the government tax revenue, but I bet these true blue vets are proud to lose that money.

I don't think BANANA, ELF or any other (wacko) Radical environmental group actually represents what real environmentalists, liberals and the democratic party thinks or does. It's just like the feces and piss throwing thing I didn't get to take part in. (Did ALL democrats do this, I missed it?)

I don't want to you to think that Duo and I are ganging up on you. So: The media is liberal. All democrats are bad. Liberal means stupid. War is good and anyone that questions that is a crap throwing pinko.

During the progressive era, it was the Republicans that often championed the causes we think of as liberal. T. Roosevelt. Republicans were there when the first workplace safety rules, child labor laws, food safety regulations and financial institution reforms were enacted. It was Eisenhower that integrated the Federal Government and the Armed Services. Liberal used to be a good word.

The Patriot act allows the government almost unlimited search, siezure, and arrest rules if the word "terrorism" can be attached to it. Forget warrants, habeas corpus or even trials. The feds can now check out your library records, health records, employment, tax and financial records without even telling you. This should upset every red blooded conservative. To this date some 4,000 or more have been detained by Ashcroft without charges or trial, under the act. I don't think Janet ever did that.

It doesn't help when feds do things that are illegal, stupid or wrong (Although the USA-PATRIOT act would have allowed their actions to be done secretly). Ruby Ridge and Waco. Nasty things that happened to innocent people who happened to be with fringe wackos that were dangerous and violating the law (granted that in Ruby Ridge entrapment was proven). Should have never happened, but ineptitude is not the same as fascism. (I don't think this is a Liberal/Conservative issue.)

Elian Gonzalez should have been returned to his father. It is too bad he (dad) wanted to stay in Cuba. But if we start taking Cuban kids away from their parents to give them to a distant relative in Florida, I think that's a bad precedent. Conservatives should be for parent rights.

Ken Starr did a thorough investigation of Clinton. He found the lie about sex. Thank God! I hate when presidents lie.

al-Zarqawi- I hope it is true- we should, but we won't. We will ask him a bunch of questions, take some video, hold him and then turn him over to the Iraqi government.

Hey, I gave you my summation of the Liberal Agenda. (And my take on the conservative agenda). What do conservatives want to achieve?

Also, can we get more opinions here? Duo, Censport and I could use company.

[No-name]

Well, you certainly consider yourself an expert on conservative views. Where the Sam Heck did you learn that? Obviously not from a conservative!

Nope, waaaay nope, nope, and.... I think I read something about that last one not long ago. Let me see if I can find it.

My mother and most of her generation in my family were Republicans. (Democrats put them in concentration camps). I learned a lot at the dinner table. She became a member of the GOP state organization and a vice president in CWA (a Republican women's group) She threw neither pee or crap at returning vets. (After being a teacher for several years in an inner city school, she switched parties in the 1980's...the party left her, she says.)

The thing on the top of the GOP legislative agenda [http://www.rnc.org/] is the plan to ease regulations to help make big businesses more profitable and competative with foreign employers. This includes all the envronmental health, safety, pay, hours and benefits rules. This will save American jobs.

By the way, check out the GOP website. The agenda page makes them look like a bunch of tree loving liberals-- until you click on "learn more". What's up with you guys? Do you hate trees, poor people, minorities, women, and children?

[No-name]

Btw: that's a great article about gun control. John Lott from the Washington Post (Not a Liberal Medium) (http://www.americandaily.com/article/6170) Check it out. Worthy of another thread?

California just banned the sale of .50 cal BMG rifles. Not that I own one or want one, but when was the last time you heard of one of these bulky, long, heavy weapons in a crime?

On the other hand, we don't need weapons like this. What do y'all think of gun control? We in the US are absolutely gun crazy, don't try to take my Mauser away. Chime in please.

What Lott was resoponding to: CCW Not Credible: National Academy of Sciences Highly Skeptical of NRA Concealed Handgun Laws
The National Academy of Sciences has released a report examining the impact of various gun laws, including the NRAÕs pet project of forcing police to let almost anyone carry loaded, hidden handguns in public (CCW). The NSA was particularly skeptical of the NRAÕs concealed handgun push, stating, "The committee found no credible evidence that the passage of right-to-carry laws decreases violent crime." The NSA study found that accurate research on what works to reduce gun violence had been made impossible by a lack of information on gun ownership and by scholars' lack of access to information like the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms' data on guns traced to crimes. The NRA and its supporters in Congress have long opposed collecting information on gun ownership and sharing the bureau's gun-tracing data, preventing researchers from determining the most effective ways to reduce gun violence.

[Duo]

In another thread, you said you would provide someone with that research from your professor. We're still waiting. Besides, "one a couple"[sic]? Out of what, thousands? That's still better than Dan Rather or Jayson Blair.

I don't know if Chomsky has come out and declared himself anti-American (heck, who does besides Islamic terrorists?), but you can't deny that he is an anti-establishment extremist. Also, how do you know that he's telling it like it is? Can you prove it, or does he just have the same view as you do? Someone once told me that "Chomsky really makes you think." Of course, I couldn't help but reply "But he does he make you know?" Thinking is great, but proving and knowing are better.

Yes I did say that, but sadly no luck in finding my old hand outs, wish i would have kept them, but at the time i didn't much care, well in any case, i rather read Chomsky who actually gives some kind of logical explanations and has a certain logical thread to his thoughts rather than the rambling, accusations, and labeling of ann coulter and co.

[Censport]

...i rather read Chomsky who actually gives some kind of logical explanations and has a certain logical thread to his thoughts rather than the rambling, accusations, and labeling of ann coulter and co.

Most people read or watch what they're comfortable with, which has always made me wonder about horror-movie fans. But it shows why our First Amendment is so important. When you look at 'right-wing media', have you noticed that aside from Rush Limbaugh, everything else is fairly new? And Limbaugh has only been around, what, 16 years? I've heard leftists say that Fox News, Rush and anybody right-wing should be banned from the airwaves. Gee, how inclusive and intolerant of them! Nobody on the right wants to take down CNN, we just want our side to be heard without being distorted. Some of us have suggested that taxpayer dollars shouldn't be spent keeping NPR on the air, since they don't practice equal-time policies. Could they survive in the private sector? I really doubt it.

But then maybe you're not old enough to remember a time when left-biased TV news was all that was out there.

Since you don't like Coulter's style, can I make a suggestion? If it's analysis and explanations you want, how about David Horowitz? He used to run with Chomsky's crowd. One of his websites is www.frontpagemag.com.

[Censport]

Hey, I gave you my summation of the Liberal Agenda. (And my take on the conservative agenda). What do conservatives want to achieve?

Also, can we get more opinions here? Duo, Censport and I could use company.

Dude, I hate to tell you this, but I think the three of us have the most active thread on the forum!

It's not easy summing up conservative goals into something I can type during my breaks (I'm in the private sector, remember?). And that's one of the things that holds us back during the election season. Helen Thomas and her cohorts want our candidate to explain his plans in great detail and justify them at length. Meanwhile, all our opponent has to do is shout "FREE HEALTHCARE!" and he locks up entire blocks of voter demographics. And when your candidate is questioned on how he'll pay for such programs, he has one answer: "TAX THE RICH!" And since the wealthy are a minority (despite carrying the bulk of the tax burden), they can't out-vote the people who would benefit from the program.

Sometimes it really seems like everything on the DNC party platform can fit onto a protest sign. We call it "sloganeering" and we refer to Jesse Jackson as "The Sloganmaster". Tell me if any of these others sound familiar:

NO WAR FOR OIL
NO NUKES
WORLD PEACE
SOCIAL JUSTICE
NO TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH
SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT
FEED THE WORLD
BUSH LIED
ABORTION RIGHTS
GAY RIGHTS
WOMEN'S RIGHTS
MINORITY RIGHTS
RIGHTS FOR GAY MINORITY WOMEN WHO WANT ABORTIONS (sorry, guess I read too much Bloom County when I was a kid)

Now who doesn't want world peace, right? But it's how you get there that's important. Like our current situation: The Islamic terrorists have claimed that they will kill as many Americans as they can, anywhere they can, and that the only way we can stop them is if we kill them first. To me, the obvious solution is to kill them first before they can martyr themselves to get a bunch of virgins. But many on your side don't want us to kill these terrorists, and in fact some have even justified the terrorists hatred and actions. Our enemy refuses to accept a peaceful solution, so why do those who insist on finding one consider theirs a noble cause? Seriously, I'm scratching my head over that one.

Edited to add: Some conservatives do have idealistic goals, but it's hard to fit "Get lazy welfare sponges off their butts and into productive society so that liberal programs can work" on a protest sign. Maybe we should hire Jesse Jackson...?

As a conservative Republican, I tend to look at people as individuals than by races or sexual orientation. While I don't know that I've met a gay black Republican, I know several black Republicans and several gay Republicans. If you were to look at my parents and their neighbors, you'd see a lot of myth-busting. My parents have the old American cars, their neighbors have shiny new European cars and a motorcycle collection. Their neighbors are devout Christians, my parents only go to church for weddings and funerals. Both recycle. (My mother reuses the same paper bags every time she goes to the grocery store. "Paper or plastic, ma'am?" "I brought my own." She also washes and reuses Ziploc bags. How's that for conserve-ative?) Neither have SUVs. Guess who still uses the N-word? Nope, not my Dad, but his counterpart next door.

But that's why you invited me to this thread, wasn't it? To see what a life-long conservative thinks instead of reading about it in Newsweek?

As for me, I recycle, take the bus to work, have a Chevy sedan that's over 40 years old and gets better gas mileage than my 10 year old motorcycle (but the bike, a Triumph Daytona 1200, is a whooooole lot more fun!), and never attended a Klan meeting.

Here's a suggestion: Can we hit one topic at a time? I don't have a lot of time I can devote to this. Since you're a teacher, do you want to start with education?

In the meantime, here's a link to my favorite cartoon. I think you'll enjoy today's (1/5) panel: Day by Day Cartoon

[No-name]

The last two days I was taking care of my family, all three came down with the Flu at the same time. Two cats are sick, too. So I was running around, cleaning up a variety of messes, cooking soup, making jello and shoveling some of the two feet of snow that fell. In between, I would jot down ideas on this thread. It's not the reason why my thoughts are so scattered. That's the way I generally think anyway.

[Censport]

It's not the reason why my thoughts are so scattered. That's the way I generally think anyway.

Oh, I already guessed that!

Sorry to hear about your family. Even the cats, huh? Sounds like your house needs to be quarrantined!

[No-name]

Sometimes it really seems like everything on the DNC party platform can fit onto a protest sign. Tell me if any of these others sound familiar:

NO WAR FOR OIL
NO NUKES
WORLD PEACE
SOCIAL JUSTICE
NO TAX CUTS FOR THE RICH
SAVE THE ENVIRONMENT
BUSH LIED
ABORTION RIGHTS
GAY RIGHTS
WOMEN'S RIGHTS
MINORITY RIGHTS
RIGHTS FOR GAY MINORITY WOMEN WHO WANT ABORTIONS (sorry, guess I read too much Bloom County when I was a kid)

Here's a suggestion: Can we hit one topic at a time? I don't have a lot of time I can devote to this. Since you're a teacher, do you want to start with education?

Excellent summation of the liberal agenda and a good hint at what is wrong with the Democratic party. (Lack of a clearly articulated message, lack of good leadership, lack of focus, and trying to keep too many people happy- including the fringe that wouldn't vote Republican anyway.)

Check out both party websites and you'll see this amplified. The DNC hasn't bothered to update the platform page or the message page in spite of it referring to the upcomming election. The GOP has a clear mission page, a clear platform page, and a message that appeals to the core middle class, middle american constituency...and it looks better.

Okay, education:

Education is underfunded. We need money. Not every problem is solved with money, but we definitely need mounds of cash. In California, we flat out need classrooms. I've been in portables since the Reagan administration. We also need better textbooks. We have computers, but most of my collegues know less than the kids about them. We have more fully credentialed teachers than ever before, but we make less pay, as you said, than auto workers. To keep them and recruit them takes money.We also need to tell these kids with a straight face that they all can go to college if they want.

The federal DOE should provide research into best practices, teacher training and supervision, and curricular materials. It also makes sure that national goals for education should be met. There is nothing really wrong with No Child Left Behind (NCLB) except that it doesn't really do anything (in CA we already had stringent standards for our teachers and curriculum and public accountability) and it provides no money. Teachers will argue about teaching to the test and cookie cutter education, but to me, it's just part of the job. The Republicans are absolutely right when they talk about education being a state responsibility and that unfunded federal mandates are bad. I work in special education and the paperwork created by IDEA is a mess that benefits no one. Any federal money that comes in has strings attach that usually create a job for someone, but they often don't directly help students. (With the exception of Perkins, TPP, Workabilitiy and other programs. Title 1 is good, but some of the money has to go to pay a coordinator.) In California, we would also like the Feds to chip in a bit more for the immigrant, illegal and otherwise, education. (I don't think it serves anyone to have uneducated illegal aliens running unsupervised during school hours.)

As for higher education, when we were in school anyone with a bit of talent, the grades, and a part time job could go to a State Unversity and have a reasonably loan to pay off at graduation. With cut after cut, fee hike after fee hike, this is no longer true. Although we still have the best universities in the world, we don't provide seats or tuition for every qualified high school graduate. If we want to be the land of opportunity, we better back this up. We tell every kid from kindergarten to high school that if they have the brains and desire, they can be doctors and lawyers and the President if they want to. When they get to HS graduation though, the story suddenly changes. Duo will tell you that everyone in Europe who qualifies can go to college for free. Sounds good to me.

Voucher programs don't work. Check out the research on Edison Schools, Cleveland, Chicago and other places that tried. Private schools don't want these kids, don't want the regulation and scrutiny that comes with pubilc money, and are not beyond cashing the check and booting the pupil after five weeks to keep the money. Research will also tell you that these students don't score any higher after one, two, or five years in private schools. (But look at the data carefully- religious and parochial schools will score lower, often lower than their local public counterparts, Prep and military academies will score higher. US News does an anual report that demonstrates this quite well and recommends that you take the amount that you would spend on tuition to a private school and invest in a house in a weathier neighborhood. Public schools in high priced neighborhoods are the best in the nation.

Philosophically, we shouldn't give money to private schools anyway. Let's use the money to improve the local public school. It is a parent's choice to send the kid there. We spend tax money on schools not just so that our own children will get a quality education, but primarily so that we will have an educated society. We need a mass of well educated humans to make a democracy function. It's supposed to be the great equalizer.

By the way, schools are not failing. Standards are higher than ever. Test scores are improving. Kids are learning and graduating. I've been doing this for eighteen years, and I see a marked improvement over the late eighties and early nineties.

Funny thing: I have eighteen years experience, four credentials and two masters degrees. But according to NCLB I am not qualified to teach two of my classes. You might be able to however because you have "real world" experience.

The center is where most people are politically. I think most Americans like the term "conservative," but actually are quite liberal in their thinking. I looked at your media list. I guess from the far right even the center (Moore and Frankin are lefties, Rather is gone.) looks like the left. John Stossel and Wolf Blitzer are awesome.

[Duo]

But then maybe you're not old enough to remember a time when left-biased TV news was all that was out there.

Heh, funny you should say that, well I'm not american so I wouldn't know anyways, but I remember there was a time when TV was just a bunch of communist controlled propaganda Those were the days

In any case, thx for the link, btw just out of curiousity, have u heard of this magazine called The Nation ? Furthermore, just also out of curiousity, by your beleifs is the US a better country than the rest out there, I mean is America the best country in the world, just curious about your opinion.

[No-name]

... is America the best country in the world, just curious about your opinion.

I think it is. But I have only visited Mexico and Canada. I'm certain other places are nice, but I am entirely comfortable here. I am however always looking for ways of making it better. Any ideas?
Do you think Americans have an irrational fear of socialism?

[No-name]

You know, all the other threads are kind of quiet now. I was hoping that we could generate some of that pre election energy those posts had. Even the Jim88 thing, the"Why are U not a muslim?" thread and the Urecco denials of the holocaust and the Rape of Nanking were somewhat fun. Problem is- neither of you are crazy. Censport, can you be a little more Rush-like in your extremism? I can try to be a little more Michael Moore-ish if it would help.

[Censport]

Sorry Duo, I keep forgetting that you're not an American. What flag is that, anyway?

I find it curious that you've lived under communist propaganda and then willingly read Chomsky. Seriously. Many right-wingers consider Chomsky and his like communists propagandists. In fact, I remember reading about a viewing of Fahrenheit 9/11 in a former Soviet-controlled country. The country's leader (president, prime minister, grand poombah, whatever) walks out and is asked for his review by the press. He said (rough quote) "That was communist propaganda if I've ever seen it. And I should know!"

Heard of The Nation?!? Oh I should say so!

As for America's standings, it all depends on what you're looking for. If you think that everybody should have the same amount of stuff, regardless of their productivity, there other countries that live for wealth-redistribution. If you want a chance to start your own business and accept the risk yourself, like I have, I'm not aware of a better country.

When it comes to civil rights and equality, diversity of ideas and cultures (and more superficial measures of diversity, like skin color or ethnic background), equal opportunities (not equal results though, see above), economy, and choices of terrains and climates, it's hard to beat America. After all, people aren't exactly making their cars into boats in an effort to get to Cuba. Just look at all the people who risk their lives to get here. Whether it's Cubans packed onto a floating '49 Chevy, Mexicans hiking for days in the desert or Chinese dying in shipping crates, no other country has such an issue. If America was as bad as our detractors claim....

Hey, I think I just answered one of sabro's questions.

No country or system is perfect. Same for programs, wars or ideaologies. But whenever enthusiasts of socialism or communism are asked why yet another socialist/communist country has collapsed, you usually hear: "They didn't practice pure socialism/communism." And therein lies the problem: If a society has to be pure in order for a system to work, then the system will always fail. Society can't be pure or perfect. Free-market capitalism isn't perfect, but it works best with an imperfect society.