Do the French lack humour ?

[Maciamo]

Please read this interesting analysis of the Economist contrasting French wit and prank with British humour. I admit that I prefer the French style of witty humour and wordplays to the light-hearted and self-derisory British humour.

I agree with the article that the best French humour is untranslatable (like the examples of the comics 'Asterix' or the movie 'Les Visiteurs'). In some cases the jokes are so subtles that they are difficult to understand even for native French speakers at the first hearing/reading, which makes it virtually inaccessible to even quite advanced non-native speakers (especially in 'Les Visiteurs' where pseudo-medieval French is used).

Interesting that the word 'humour' with its current meaning originally comes from English and wasn't used in French until the late 19th century and accepted as a French word until 1932. I wonder when the word appeared in other languages if at all. Does that mean that humour, as opposed to wit, caricature/satire, prank or drollery, didn't exist in the world before its 'invention' in Britain ? What do you think ? Many non-Western countries are still quite intolerant of mocking humour applied to religion or politics.

For example, travelling around Turkey I came across a story that a Turkish journalist was jailed for revealing the fact that a municipality in south-western Turkey (Datça) banned dogs from swimming into the sea because that was un-Islamic. This sounded as a quite funny story, but visibly the Turkish government has acquired the concept of 'humour' yet. I was all the more surprised as Turkey is probably the most liberal of the Muslim nations, and most Turks (in that region) do drink alcohol, watch porn, don't mind bikinis on the beach, and the vast majority certainly doesn't stop for prayers when the minaret reminds them 5 times a day (no wonder Europeans feel Turkey isn't politically ready to join the EU, although maybe the people are).

[lexico]

Interesting that the word 'humour' with its current meaning originally comes from English and wasn't used in French until the late 19th century and accepted as a French word until 1932. I wonder when the word appeared in other languages if at all. Does that mean that humour, as opposed to wit, caricature/satire, prank or drollery, didn't exist in the world before its 'invention' in Britain ? What do you think ? Many non-Western countries are still quite intolerant of mocking humour applied to religion or politics.

Merriam-Webster's 10th Collegiate says;

14th century
humor (14c) - noun
Middle English humour< Middle French humeur < Mid-Latin humor < Latin humor, umor 'moisture';
akin to Old Norse vokr 'damp', Latin humeere 'to be moist' < (perhaps) Greek hygros 'wet'

15th century
humoral (15c) - adjective
humorous (15c) - adjective

16th century
humor (1588) - verb transitive
humorist (1589) - noun

19th century
humoristic (1818) - adjective
humorless (ca. 1847) - adjective
humoresque (1889) - adjective < German humoreske < humor < Mid-Latin humor

It appears that humor might have been around in Ancient Rome or even Greece in the etymological sense. There was farce at those times, although whether humor, umor, or hygros was used in the modern sense of the word humor isn't clear to me. For comparison, a person with witty remarks was called 滑Œm hua2 ji 'a funny, comical, amusing person' in Han Dynasty, China, loosely translated 'slippery toungued.' If you have other information supporting the notion of humor/humeur in pre-modern France, could it be that humor passed through France leaving only scanty traces ?

a Turkish journalist was jailed for revealing the fact that a municipality in south-western Turkey (Datça) banned dogs from swimming into the sea because that was un-Islamic. This sounded as a quite funny story, but visibly the Turkish government has ( ) acquired the concept of 'humour' yet.

Great Turkish humor, btw, but I think a 'not' ran away with the dogs into the Mediterranean or the Black Sea. But was the journalist jailed for ridiculing minicipal authority or simply relaying the logic of an imagined, un-islamic, dog-swimming scene ? Why would it be un-Islamic if the dogs were swimming peacefully and not profanely ? What sacred idea was violated for the doggies to be regarded sacrilegious ?

[Maciamo]

Lexico, please take into consideration that the meaning of the word humor in Latin, umore in Italian o humeur in French do NOT mean the same as in English. These word only mean 'mood'. The English changed its sense, and kept the Germanic word 'mood' for the original meaning. In French, mood is 'humeur', while 'humour' is also spelt 'humour' (although pronounced differently).

[lexico]

Well those things I wouldn't know cause I don't speak the language(s). If the modern sense of humor/humour was indeed invented in 19c. Britain, what could have been the circumstances that might have contributed to its birth, and why not in other countries ?

[Frank D. White]

They seem to do a good job of making the world laugh at them?

Frank

[Maciamo]

Well those things I wouldn't know cause I don't speak the language(s). If the modern sense of humor/humour was indeed invented in 19c. Britain, what could have been the circumstances that might have contributed to its birth, and why not in other countries ?

The article says that the word in this sense already existed in Britain in the 18th century, but was not used in French literature until the late 19th century.

I suppose that the 'circumstances' are just the nature of the English people. Why ? That's more difficult to answer, but the English descend from the North Germanic Anglo-Saxons and Scandinavians, which were very egualitarian societies.

This mixed with a ruling French aristocracy and the gradual integration of French language (and wit) into English after 1066 may have given the English people more opportunities to practice word plays as the language was evolving, became progressively the richest language in the world and many words took new meanings and nuances in consequence.

England is the first major country to have had a parliament to limit the power of its monarch, which again shows that the monarchy was less powerful or oppresive than elsewhere, and it could even be made fun of them thanks to the relatively low "power distance".

I think that partly explains the more casual/informal attitude of the English people toward social rules. Strong individualism with few social constraints. Liberalism (both economical and philosophical) was also kind of born in Britain (at least that is where it developed the best as the population was very receptive to this way of thinking).

[Mycernius]

I always thought it was the sterotypical Germans that lacked a sense of humour?

[lexico]

Yeah, Mycernius ! That's what I thought myself. I used to think the French were wickedly funny, but I guess I don't know how oppressive French society was 200 yrs ago.
O, well, here's to the invention of humor Britanniica !

[Maciamo]

Note that in this article 'humour' is not understood in the general sense of something funny, otherwise they wouldn't have said that the French had a lot of wit and like pranks or drolleries. All of them make us laugh. What they meant is that the French do not have something like "British humour of self-derision", i.e. what is usually associated with the word 'humour' in Britain (as opposed to wit, drollery, etc.). Hope this make sense.

There is no need to discuss the fact that laughing is universal. The point here is that what people find funny is different in every culture. British humour may be unique in itself, although it has now been spread all over the world thanks to the Monty Python, Mr Beans, etc.

As for the German, their reputation may be due to their comparatively higher seriousness at work - so a stricter separation of fun and work. I am not sure how to describe what make the Germans laugh, though. It seems at first hand that it is closer to drollery. Could German-speaking members help me on this ?

[Mycernius]

Yeah, you make sense, but I just couldn't resist.

[miu]

Please read this interesting analysis of the Economist contrasting French wit and prank with British humour. I admit that I prefer the French style of witty humour and wordplays to the light-hearted and self-derisory British humour.).

Somehow I get the feeling that you're saying there's nothing witty about irony? I think that atleast one common thing the French and British style of humour seem to share is that they can both be seen as 'elite' humour - they can be understood only if a person is aware of certain things. What I find amusing is that in the article they have a joke about British humour (when the guy's hat is blown off) and in a book I used for an essay the authors describe sarcasm and irony as 'one of the surest tests of intelligence and sophistication'. So both nations seem to cling to their idea of sophisticated humour when what they're really clinging on to is a marker to separate themselves from each other

I don't know about the history of Finnish humour but I would say that it's quite close to the British definition. I atleast tend to prefer irony and sarcasm over for example American style humour. I can say something like
'My hairdresser told me the other day that I have a vacuum in my hair. I told her that I have for a long time suspected that I have a vacuum in my head but I never knew was in my hair.' ( A hairdresser actually told me that there's a vacuum in my hair... Go figure! )

Many non-Western countries are still quite intolerant of mocking humour applied to religion or politics.

This might sound like nit-picking but are you talking about governments or nations in general? Wouldn't you say that just because the people in power ban something it doesn't mean that particular thing doesn't exist? Just asking because of your example...

[lexico]

'My hairdresser told me the other day that I have a vacuum in my hair.
I told her that I have for a long time suspected that I have a vacuum in my head but I never knew (it) was in my hair.'
( A hairdresser actually told me that there's a vacuum in my hair... Go figure !)

Is your example of Finnish humor founded on the proximity between tukka 'the hair' and 'pa..a..' head (not very close ??) or the hair dresser's innocent verbal slip ? I need you to tell me what it means, "vacuum in the hair."

What role does 'vacuum in hair' play in the humor ?

1. negation of hair = hair loss ?
2. malnutrition = thinning of hair ?
3. fluffiness = rising hair ?
4. ailing hair = damaged hair ?

It sounds like 'vacuum in head' is the self-derisory part:

1. absentmindedness ?
2. ignorance ?
3. forgetfulness ?
4. mental illness (s.a. dementia) ?

Which ones are the closest in your case with the hair dresser ?

[lexico]

The article says that the word in this sense already existed in Britain in the 18th century, but was not used in French literature until the late 19th century.
...
Note that in this article 'humour' is not understood in the general sense of something funny, otherwise they wouldn't have said that the French had a lot of wit and like pranks or drolleries. All of them make us laugh. What they meant is that the French do not have something like "British humour of self-derision", i.e. what is usually associated with the word 'humour' in Britain (as opposed to wit, drollery, etc.). Hope this make sense.

In this opening paragraph, Elliott Oring, by referreing to ethnic jokes, also talks about a qualitative change in jokes and funny stories some time between the 17th and the 19th centuries.

In the 17th c. Thomas Hobbes championed what was essentially a megalomaniacal theory of humor. In his view, humor served to exalt the self through contrast with the infirmities of others.

In the late 19th and early 20th c.s however commentators directed their attentions to the numerous instances in jokes and comic tales in which the self seemed to be that infirmed other.

Thus Jewish jokes were often characterized as "turned by the speaker against himself," or marked by a distinctive tendency toward self-criticism."

Such suggestions were part and parcel of broader conceptualizations of self-criticism and self-hatred as characteristically Jewish, conceptualizations later transposed to the assessment of other minority groupings-most probably blacks in the united states.

Jokes and Their Relations, Kentucky 1992, p. 122

Then could it be said that the birth of modern humour can be equated to the transformation of ethnic jokes form other-deprecation to self-deprecation, and the growth of humour to the spreading of it from the Jewish circle to the general public or other non-Jewish ethnic groups ?

There is no need to discuss the fact that laughing is universal. The point here is that what people find funny is different in every culture.

It is notable that laughter invariably involves the sudden discovery/exposure of previously unknown/hidden identity or identical relationship.

[miu]

I need you to tell me what it means, "vacuum in the hair."

I would explain it but 'a vacuum in your hair' doesn't make any sense to me Moreover, every single person I've told that I have a vacuum in my hair has given me the following look: How can there possibly be a vacuum in your hair? Is hair like a container of some sort? What the hairdresser probably meant is that since I let my friend put some highlights in my hair, the dye had stripped colour pigments from my hair thus making it thinner. You're right about the latter self-derisory part, though, I just turned her silly comment around to mean that I'm a pretty stupid person. (So all I really did was to give her a very truthful answer )