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    Talking question number **** whatever



    What is the difference between the dream and the illusion ?
    ...
    after some thinking - and the desire

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    Do you mean what do these words mean? If so, this belongs in the 'learning English' section. Otherwise, please elaborate.

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    I Think ......

    this is susposed to be a "deep thinking" contemplation on life question?

    Frank


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    Do you mean like philosophy
    It sounds like it's verging on something philosophical. Especially if somebody has an answer to the question...

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    For what it's worth...

    For me, dream is the vision in your mind, it's usually meant in a good way and also often as something you intensely want (as in: "His dream is to visit Japan" or "to be a famous artist" or something of that nature). So, often as something to aspire to, but acknowledged that it isn't 'reality'.

    Illusion for me is a thing that seems like something else. Whether or not you really believe it. Like you can be aware you see an illusion, also some people are accused of 'having an illusion' with the implication that they don't see it but instead really believe it. In some ways it can be more negative than 'dream'. Dream has more 'soft and fluffy' sound to it somehow... (maybe because of the association with sleeping?) Like it's always a good thing... Whereas 'illusion' more often (not always) has the negative association in a kind of melancholy way, a feeling of hopelessness... oh I don't know, does that sound stupid?

    Desire of course has more intense and active to it... Desire has an object and a direction, whereas 'dream' and 'illusion' don't need to have (although they can and often do). If 'dream' can be also ambition or aspiration, I would say 'dream' and 'desire' often go hand in hand. But 'desire' implies action to pursue aims, 'dream' by itself is a little more static, for instance, to call someone "a dreamer" implies that they have many dreams but don't really do much about pursuing them.

    Phew! What possessed me to reply, and so long? ... oh well, I have been away for a while, so now... I try to use my brain a little

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    Ha, ha that's really good. Very pensive.
    My two cents:
    To me, dream is a vision, an ambition, a hope to achieve something no matter on what timescale it might reley on (tommorow, next year, five years). Often "dream" means pursuing this hope regardless of the sacrifices you might have to make.

    When I think of "illusion", I think of something that perhaps isn't your in best interests or that maybe you don't see the whole picture in the situation. I don't believe that an illusion is something that is negative for ones self but perhaps somebody else might have negative feelings about.
    Often a "Catch 22" situation as what you might think is an illusion is somebody elses dream. For example my dream is to one day see Japan. Somebody else might percieve that as a illusion. Regardless of the reason which could range anything to "he'll never raise enough money to go over there" or "he won't fit in".

    You could say desire and dream are closely linked. As is not your desire to achive your dream. You could argue that a desire is more impulsive and a certain craving sensation to it but this leads back to the dream.
    Certainly I have a desire to one day fulfill my dream.
    Perhaps some don't have a desire to achieve their dreams but only create their dreams as something to latch onto for security?
    Desire sort of sounds like it depends on the person, a lot like dream and illusion.

    It's all hypothetical really.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nebiki
    Perhaps some don't have a desire to achieve their dreams but only create their dreams as something to latch onto for security?
    I guess this could be in situation where dream is related to illusion more closely than to desire.

    For example, dream like maybe yours is: "I really want to go to Japan, so I'm working really hard to save up enough money and learning some of Japanese language" (dream + desire). But sometimes is the case that a person might have a thought like: "I really want to go to Japan, because it sounds like a really cooooool and amaaaaazing place and all the girls are cute..." (dream + illusion).

    Well, it's just an idea!

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    Exactly. I completely agree with you.
    It seems to be a concept that works with either two componants (dream + desire, dream + illusion).
    Like: "I have a desire to go to Japan because all the girls over there are gorgeous." Which would be desire + illusion.
    It appears that this is a mixture that works no matter which way you arrange it.

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    Kinsao, I notice that you are from the same country as me, presumably we have the same native language and possibly a similar culture, but your ideas are quite different from mine!

    I think that 'dream' has two quite distinct meanings - the first is somewhat similar to 'desire' - 'dream' in this sense is something I aspire to, that I would dearly like to happen, although it may seem unlikely. My dream is to win the lottery! This is definitely a positive meaning in the sense that it gives me pleasure to contemplate it.

    The other meaning of 'dream' is a scenario that comes involuntarily to the mind's eye, such as a nightmare or a daydream. This can be positive or negative.

    For me 'illusion' need not have negative connotations. An illusion is a trick of the mind, which can come from within or without. I am under the illusion that I am valued at work. This illusion comes entirely from within my own mind. But a conjurer can create an illusion in my mind by external means. Are internal illusions always negative?

    'Desire' is something that I want badly. I think desire is usually harmful, but then I have read a lot about Buddhism. There is a distinction between 'desire' and 'a desire'. We are all constantly subject to desire (unless we are Buddha!), but the nature of that desire changes. I have a constantly present desire not to go to work, but at the moment I desire a cup of coffee.

    The first 'desire' is almost indistinguishable from my first definition of 'dream'. Although it gives me pleasure to dream about not having to go to work, it is ultimately harmful because I do have to go and I don't want to accept that. The second desire is transient, and only becomes harmful if it develops into an addiction - two cups of coffee a day won't kill me, but if I give in to that desire every hour I will do myself harm.


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    outline #1

    Sorry, for not elaborating, but looks like you`ve done good job even without
    it ;)
    Let me provide some introduction, though it might seem a bit late.
    In Russian language we have two separate words for a 'dream' as a vision we get while sleeping, and 'dream' as some image you create in a vigil state. Yet, they are somewhat related. Here i meant the second.

    I picked the 'desire' among the others (crave, long, aspire, wish, want, ...),
    probably, for one reason - it has strong meaning, but, yet, balanced, not
    desperate

    So, desire, illusion, dream...

    Kinsao
    Dream [...] So, often as something to aspire to, but acknowledged that it
    isn't 'reality'.

    Whereas 'illusion' more often (not always) has the negative association in a kind of melancholy way, a feeling of hopelessness...

    Desire has an object and a direction, whereas 'dream' and 'illusion' don't need to have (although they can and often do). If 'dream' can be also ambition or aspiration, I would say 'dream' and 'desire' often go hand in hand. But 'desire' implies action to pursue aims, 'dream' by itself is a little more static, for instance, to call someone "a dreamer" implies that they have many dreams but don't really do much about pursuing them.
    1. We all know dream is not a reality (we shall not brag now about what
    reality really is and why my reality, for ex, different from yours )

    2. Illusion also seems not to be real and pretty often has negative tincture

    3. Desire is more like a vector, ne?

    =================
    Nebiki
    To me, dream is a vision, an ambition, a hope to achieve something no matter
    on what timescale it might reley on...

    When I think of "illusion", I think of something that perhaps isn't your in best interests or that maybe you don't see the whole picture in the situation. I don't believe that an illusion is something that is negative for ones self but perhaps somebody else might have negative feelings about.

    Certainly I have a desire to one day fulfill my dream.

    Perhaps some don't have a desire to achieve their dreams but only create their dreams as something to latch onto for security?
    1. Dream also as a vector (but also an image)?

    2. Illusion as a part of you, but not of much use? (unreal and not full/true/correct vision) and negative for onlooker?

    3. Desire and Dream closely linked

    4. Desire to dream for the sake of dreaming, illusive desire, vector pointing
    to nowhere?

    ================
    Tsuyoiko
    I think that 'dream' has two quite distinct meanings - the first is somewhat
    similar to 'desire' - 'dream' in this sense is something I aspire to, that I would dearly like to happen, although it may seem unlikely.

    The other meaning of 'dream' is a scenario that comes involuntarily to the
    mind's eye, such as a nightmare or a daydream. This can be positive or negative.

    For me 'illusion' need not have negative connotations. An illusion is a trick of the mind, which can come from within or without.

    'Desire' is something that I want badly. I think desire is usually harmful, but then I have read a lot about Buddhism. There is a distinction between 'desire' and 'a desire'. [...] The first 'desire' is almost indistinguishable from my first definition of 'dream'. [...] The second desire is transient...
    1. Dream as a vector (but also an image)?

    2. Dream (2nd meaning) ~ illusion?

    3. illusion can be imposed from outside and from within. But it`s seen as the
    illusion (unreal and not full/true/correct vision) only from without?

    4. i`ll leave it for dessert


    p.s. in about 1\2 an hour i shall bring 'outline #2' as our old discussion, and hopefully the 'outline #3' of this thread at the moment

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    outline #2

    This discussion occured around January, we made some conclusions. A few days ago my friends were talking about the same staff. It was nice to dive there again.

    Always when concept of a Dream pops up it seems to be tight up to teleology (not in a divine meaning of it). Dream - an unreal image as a goal to move toward to. Some of the goals have to be vague and unobtainable (like the target of one`s life)
    Desire - a state of mind and a process (vector) to bring some of the goals
    to reality. When Dream fullfilled Desire dies... but what about the Dream? It can evolve into another milestone of one`s life, image can be stored in some mental archive, or put into the folder 'censored' or 'touchy. avoid if possible'.

    The tricky question when are both (Dream and Desire) are being born? Got no
    answers yet (and, maybe, never) Dream as image is definitly finds its birth in a mind, but also can be triggered from within or without as well. Good or bad one depends on one`s luck (or smth else?). We carefully foster it, shape the sculpture, add more strokes to the painting, taking it out to adore, enhance some more... Some day you want to bring it close at hand, to reality. Time for a desire, i guess.
    Dream is an image, Desire is a vector... But no matter how perfect is your
    dream and how strong is desire, their alloy can`t do nothing without...
    without what? Some efforts have to be made to give birth of ideal into real
    world.

    Well balanced tripod (of dream, desire and action) is a key to success, other
    weight`s distribution can lead to funny or/and disasterous confusions

    -------------------

    Illusion, maya... whatever. An ideal image, but incomplete/untrue... Its
    rootlessness rarely noticed from within. Can come both ways - from inside
    and outside. When desire is not supported by action can it turn altogether
    with a dream it linked to into Illusion?

    ---------

    whooshh... sorry, people, with part 3 i`ll continue tomorrow. The call of
    Hypnos too strong

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    Maybe a 'dream' in the sense of something I hope for (call this Dream) comes to us through a 'dream' in the sense of a scenario in the mind (call this dream).

    I certainly daydream about winning the lottery and not having to go to work. But then it is 'desire' that makes us dream about our Dreams. So maybe it is desire that comes first. It is our dissatisfaction with the way things are now that causes the desire.

    What has caused this dissatisfaction? Whatever caused the dissatisfaction is the root cause of our Dream. A Buddhist would say that it comes from within - that in some sense we choose to be dissatisfied. I want to think it is because the world is crappy, but I have a nagging feeling that I am just letting myself believe that, and that the Buddhist is right.

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    sketch #3

    Maybe a 'dream' in the sense of something I hope for (call this Dream) comes to us through a 'dream' in the sense of a scenario in the mind (call this dream).
    i think this is an attempt to separate the indivisible. Dream can be an image, plan or (scenario) shaped with words or like some map, but it can be presented by feelings and emotions as well. You live with it and through it, happy or upset, whatever suits you. this image/scenario/feeling can feed many other emotions and feelings (hopes, despair, joy, anger and so on)

    We are finely tuned systems on our journey from point A to point B. We are open systems and interact with outer world, we are complicated systems and have various interrelations within - between our components. Once system can find itself out of balance. We are trying to restore it, looking for the cause. No one likes to feel uncomfortable, the answer has to be found, problem solved and system has to continue its journey to the unknown.
    Yeah, i know, a bit mechanical, but this 'desire' what gives the birth to a new dream can be just a well disguised instinct of self-preservation, or hedonistic search for pleasure and comfort, or strange demand to jump over your oun head - to evolve

    Some feel comfortable in their dreams, without need to bring them into reality. And the only desire is to create more dreams when old are worn out and lost attractiveness. And they are perfectly aware of what they are doing.
    Some can live through an illusion till the end and be happy with it, thus, maybe it is a reality for them?

    To say that any of them (desire, illusion, dream...) is negative or positive would be quite a mistake if judging in general, `cause it`s very individual

    About Buddism. I have not much of knowledge, but i think it is not the desire what is harmful. But our dwelling upon it. If you can`t fullfill it (no matter the nature of reasons) then let it go, if you can and willing - then do it. When you ride a car and look at the side window you see the trees, lanterns and other staff passing by. If you`ll try to catch every one of it with your eyes - 90% you`ll get sea-sick. Same with desires. Therefore, i think this is a mistake, when it is said that Buddism claim "don`t desire and you`ll find the peace of mind"...
    or maybe, it is "don`t desire the desire"?

    p.s. A.E.Poe "All what we see and seem is but a dream within a dream"
    Last edited by Void; 22-07-05 at 19:35.

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    The second Noble Truth of Buddhism is this: Desire is the cause of all suffering.

    Eliminate desire and suffering will cease. I don't think it matters whether you dwell on the desire or not - where do we draw the line between dwelling and not dwelling? If I am thirsty, I might say 'I want a drink', but this is not really a desire, just the recognition that our body needs water. I think it is only desire if we wish for something that we do not need, and Buddhism certainly considers this harmful, IMHO.

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    Frankly speaking, i am not much familiar with Buddhism. At school i`ve read a lot about Buddha`s life, but whenever i tried to read the books about teaching
    (or of the teaching itself) i could never go further few pages. For me they are too 'overladen' with words.
    Because of interest in fencing i ran across some works of Yagyu Munenori (sp?) "Taiya`s sword chronicles" and his teacher and advisor Zen monk Takuan Soho (sp?) "Letters of Zen master to the master of the sword". Clear language, that makes feel that people knew what i they were talking about, knew and expirienced it.

    I am not handy at english translation of Buddhist terms, so, feel free to correct me or ask when it doesn`t make any sense to you ;)

    Eliminate desire and suffering will cease. I don't think it matters whether you dwell on the desire or not - where do we draw the line between dwelling and not dwelling?
    The only place where you can eliminate a desire is a grave. Desire is a part of you as any other emotion, feeling or thought. Where to draw the line? Do you control your desire or it rules over you? If it distorts your being and causes suffering, more likely, the second. Well, we can put it in 'mental jail' and say "i am not paying attention to you". It even may work for a while, but, probably, after some time it`ll jump out even uglier than before. Or we can follow O.Wilde instruction "To overcome the temptation - surrender to it"

    According to Zen, one of the main mental deseases is 'attachment', attachment of our mind (consciousness). For ex, if i stand with a sword and think how should i make the blow precise and strong, all of my mind concentrated on it (dwells upon this thought-desire) - 90% i`ll fail. Btw, there can be few other thoughts (like "not to harm the opponent" and "not to look stupid") and my mind will be jumping among them. Have you ever seen several people offering the dog someting yummy, when it rushes about unable to choose what to snatch first? Almost the same situation

    Free mind means free flow of it, when attention (and therefore, the action) attracted only when it is neccessary. It is 'to forget about consciousness without forgetting about it'

    Takuan
    "Buddhistic image of the Lord of Motionless Light signifies such state of mind when mind as whole doesn`t move, what means - doesn`t change, doesn`t lose the balance. Not to change and not to get out of oneself means not to fix the consciousness. To distinguish things at the first glance without fixing your mind upon them means to be motionless. Because when mind becomes attached to the things different thoughts appear, and each of them has its own way
    [...]
    Another Buddhistic image is Boddhisatve with thousand arms. If his mind will be focused on one arm other 999 will be inactive. Only because his counsciousness is not fixed all of them doing their work.
    When you look at one leaf of a tree, you don`t see the others. If you just look at the tree without focusing your vision upon one leaf, you will be able to see all ot them.
    [...]
    The one who perceived this is Boddhisatva of thousand arms and eyes"

    I think it is only desire if we wish for something that we do not need
    The only proble to deside what you really don`t need, and what is you an illusion stating that you don`t need it

    You can`t cut off part of your mind or heart, you have to learn to live with them without being severely and endlessly distressed.

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    What you are basically saying is that Buddhism is unrealistic. I agree. If it is at all possible to achieve freedom from desire, it is certainly not possible for those of us living a 'normal' life, as it is partly our desires that help us to achieve things that seem worthwhile to us.

    I have tried that 'free mind' thing though, and it works a treat. If you really have to concentrate on something, concentrate instead on your tanden point and you do better. Have you tried it?

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    it is said to concentrate on tanden point is also a `disease'. Free flow means free flow, no wandering or sticking at some point, thus you`ll have all of your attention when you really need it. At proper time, space and capacity.

    it really works, but since i am no Buddha i am, yet, unable to stay in that condition long and often. It`s like a random glare, to freeze in awe, to scratch the nape... and go on as usual

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    Good point, but I suppose it is an intermediary measure. You can use it to wean yourself off concentrating on the thing you are concentrating on. Or something.

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    *neighs* desire to become free from the 'mental disease' is also a 'disease'
    but an advanced, second stage of it

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