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Thread: Do the winners of wars get away with crimes?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Yes. Take for example the communists, they comitted far more crimes than the Nazis, yet the later is seen as the bad one (which was) but the first is not seen as bad, even portrayed as cool (Soviet Union films, videogames and such.). Because the war was won by the USA and URSS, nothing more.
    The point is, the Nazi's planned their atrocities.
    Their system was to kill people on purpose, based on an American "Eugenetics" theory.

    And in Russia, the regime of Stalin was very hard.
    But the man was paranoid, and that caused a lot of deaths on his account, but it wasn't in the communist system.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    The point is, the Nazi's planned their atrocities.
    Their system was to kill people on purpose, based on an American "Eugenetics" theory.

    And in Russia, the regime of Stalin was very hard.
    But the man was paranoid, and that caused a lot of deaths on his account, but it wasn't in the communist system.
    The soviet crimes were also planned, and killed in purpose, yes. Same in the China of Mao. It was all calculated from offices. And the soviets had more concentration camps than the Third Reich. No excuses, crimes are crimes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    The soviet crimes were also planned, and killed in purpose, yes. Same in the China of Mao. It was all calculated from offices. And the soviets had more concentration camps than the Third Reich. No excuses, crimes are crimes.
    You seem to be a right wing provocateur.
    The Nazi's were more bloody than the communists ever were.
    I agree the communist regimes of Stalin and Mao were stupid.
    But not on purpose.
    They just had to start all over again. After a total breakdown of their civilization, caused by foreign influence.

    The Russian Empire was exploiting farmers and workers in a feudal system until the Russian revolution.
    The Chinese Empire was abused by many western tradesmen and governments.
    The west didn't have gold to buy Chinese goods anymore, so the British, the French, the Americans, and other westerners invented the Opium trade to get their materials from China.
    That was the main reason for the BOXER revolt, and it lead directly into the founding of a communist China.

    And China is still supported by western capitalist GREED.

    The difference is, the Chinese don't do drugs anymore.

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    Re: "The difference is that the Chinese don't do drugs anymore!

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/dru...by/asia/china/

    It is estimated that there are between 3-7 million drug user in China as we "chat".

    Re: Greed

    Greed is a human condition not limited to Western capitalists. What does one think brought Mubarak and his sychophants down, and all the greedy rulers in our total human past and more to come from all points of the compass?

    Melusine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    You seem to be a right wing provocateur.
    The Nazi's were more bloody than the communists ever were.
    No. Communism has killed more 100 million people, that's far more than Nazism. Not to mention Fascist Italy, which killed very few people, less people than some current countries, like the USA. Im just stating facts, not emotions.

    I agree the communist regimes of Stalin and Mao were stupid.
    But not on purpose.
    Not on purpse ? Really ? They killed intententionally and sistematically more than 100 million people, but not on purpose ? Do you realize how stupid is what you are saying.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    Re: "The difference is that the Chinese don't do drugs anymore!

    http://www.drugpolicy.org/global/dru...by/asia/china/

    It is estimated that there are between 3-7 million drug user in China as we "chat".

    Re: Greed

    Greed is a human condition not limited to Western capitalists. What does one think brought Mubarak and his sychophants down, and all the greedy rulers in our total human past and more to come from all points of the compass?

    Melusine
    Haha,, You don't believe this shit about China, do you!
    Just try to get drugs into China, and they get you facing a firing squad.
    Another American Hooha propaganda twit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    No. Communism has killed more 100 million people, that's far more than Nazism. Not to mention Fascist Italy, which killed very few people, less people than some current countries, like the USA. Im just stating facts, not emotions.


    Not on purpse ? Really ? They killed intententionally and sistematically more than 100 million people, but not on purpose ? Do you realize how stupid is what you are saying.
    It proves what for a real ass you are.

    And you can't even spell English properly.

    No, I already told the communist rules were stupid.
    They caused a massive hunger.
    Sigh.. Read some books about it.
    Before you enter a European forum.
    You're so pathetic.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    The point is, the Nazi's planned their atrocities.
    Their system was to kill people on purpose, based on an American "Eugenetics" theory.
    Nitpicking because I'm not sure I want to join this lively debate: eugenics cannot said to be an American invention. Modern eugenics was systematized based on (a misunderstanding of) Darwinian evolution by Francis Galton, who was English. Before that, even Plato espoused a form of it, which he hoped would be implemented via controlled marriages. It's true that America led the way with compulsory sterilization in particular, however, they were not the only ones to do it, and the Nazis took it farther. American eugenicist Joseph DeJarnette commented in 1934: "The Germans are beating us at our own game."

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    Did anyone notice on my previous post on Drugs in China that the"Greedy Dutch" introduced smoking opium with a pipe. ?

    More on China drug use:

    URL (Sina)
    http://www.china.org.en/english/China/86705.htm


    and from the BBC

    http://cdnedge.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/...fic/778357.stm

    Note: before "trashing" fellow /lady posters "do a little research to back up your hateful claims.

    Melusine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wilhelm View Post
    Yes. Take for example the communists, they comitted far more crimes than the Nazis, yet the later is seen as the bad one (which was) but the first is not seen as bad, even portrayed as cool (Soviet Union films, videogames and such.). Because the war was won by the USA and URSS, nothing more.
    Bullshit. There was a mass rape and Soviets collaborated with Nazis from 1939 to 1941, but it's factually incorrect that Soviets were "far worse" then Nazis. And yes, Stalin was not a communist, but a typical anti-semitic nazi. Later soviet leaders were of authoritarian left, just as was Lenin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Melusine View Post
    Did anyone notice on my previous post on Drugs in China that the"Greedy Dutch" introduced smoking opium with a pipe. ?

    More on China drug use:

    URL (Sina)
    http://www.china.org.en/english/China/86705.htm


    and from the BBC

    http://cdnedge.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/...fic/778357.stm

    Note: before "trashing" fellow /lady posters "do a little research to back up your hateful claims.

    Melusine
    Haha... Chinese link doesn't work.
    And the BBC link doesn't say anything about drug history in China.

    The English were the first to use opium to addict Chinese.
    And like always, the English blame the Dutch for what they did themselves.

    The English, French, Americans, and later on the Germans had influence, traders and even military personnel in China. The Dutch weren't even there!

    The only thing the Dutch did was send their ships to China for trade.
    They didn't have the channels to sell opium.

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    We all know of the Axis War crimes - the Nazi Death/labour camps and the Japanese camps; etc, plus the thousands of smaller, sproradic and random atrociries committed against civilian and serviceman/woman alike, but which Allied actions were war crimes?

    The carpet bombing of Germany by the RAF and the USAAF?
    The carpet bombings and later the Atomic/Plutonium bombs on Japan?

    Soviet
    Mass rape and other war crimes by Soviet troops during the occupation of East Prussia (Danzig), parts of Pomerania and Silesia; during the Battle of Berlin, and the Battle of Budapest.

    Canadians

    Leonforte, July 1943. According to Mitcham and von Stauffenberg in The Battle of Sicily, The Loyal Edmonton Regiment killed captured German prisoners. The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada randomly burned houses in Friesoythe, northwestern Germany in April 1945.

    British

    The German revisionist historian Jörg Friedrich, claims that "Winston Churchill's decision to bomb Germany between January and May 1945 was a war crime." The historian Donald Bloxham states that "The bombing of Dresden on 13-14 February 1945 was a war crime".
    He further argues that there was a strong prima facie for trying Winston Churchill among others and that there is theoretical case that he could have been found guilty.
    "This should be a sobering thought. If, however it is also a startling one, this is probably less the result of widespread understanding of the nuance of international law and more because in the popular mind 'war criminal', like 'paedophile' or 'terrorist', has developed into a moral rather than a legal categorisation."
    The subject of British involvement in war crimes during the campaign in North West Europe, between D Day and VE Day, was covered by historian Sean Longden in a chapter entitled 'Rage Revenge and Retribution' in his book 'To the Victor the Spoils'.

    American
    Canicattì slaughter: killing of Italian civilians by US army Lieutenant Colonel McCaffrey. A confidential inquiry was made, but McCaffrey was never charged with an offence relating to the incident. He died in 1954. This incident remained virtually unknown until Joseph S. Salemi of New York University, whose father witnessed it, publicised it.
    # The Dachau massacre: killing of German prisoners of war and surrendering SS soldiers
    # In the Biscari massacre, which consist of two instances of mass murders, U.S. troops of the 45th Infantry Division killed roughly 75 prisoners of war, mostly Italian.
    # Richard Dominic Wiggers asserts that not only did American food policy in post-war Germany violate international law by directly and indirectly causing the unnecessary suffering and death, from starvation, of large numbers of civilians and POWs in occupied Germany. The adequate feeding of the German population in occupied Germany was an Allied legal obligation, under international law (Article 43 of The 1907 Hague Rules of Land Warfare).


    Rape
    It has been claimed that some US soldiers raped Okinawan women during the Battle of Okinawa in 1945. While the number of rapes committed by US troops is not known, historian Peter Schrijvers states that an Okinawan historian[who?] has estimated that the number may have exceeded 10,000. There were 1,336 reported rapes during the first 10 days of the occupation of the Kanagawa prefecture.

    "When US paratroopers landed in Sapporo, an orgy of looting, sexual violence and drunken brawling ensued. Gang rapes and other sex atrocities were not infrequent." Some of the rape victims committed suicide.
    "A former prostitute recalled that as soon as Australian troops arrived in Kure in early 1946, they 'dragged young women into their jeeps, took them to the mountain, and then raped them. I heard them screaming for help nearly every night'."
    The Allied occupation forces suppressed news of its criminal activities, on September 10 1945 SCAP "issued press and pre-censorship codes outlawing the publication of all reports and statistics 'inimical to the objectives of the Occupation'."

    Allan Clifton, an Australian officer of the BCOF who acted as interpreter and criminal investigator wrote:
    "I stood beside a bed in hospital. On it lay a girl, unconscious, her long, black hair in wild tumult on the pillow. A doctor and two nurses were working to revive her. An hour before she had been raped by twenty soldiers. We found her where they had left her, on a piece of waste land. the hospital was in Hiroshima. the girl was Japanese. The soldiers were Australians.
    The Moaning and wailing had ceased and she was quiet now. The tortured tension on her face had slipped away, and the soft brown skin was smooth and unwrinkled, stained with tears like the face of a child that has cried herself to sleep.
    "

    As to Australian justice he writes regarding another rape that was witnessed by a party of cardplayers:
    "At the court martial that followed, the accused was found guilty and sentenced to ten years penal servitude. In accordance with army law the courts decision was forwarded to Australia for confirmation. Some time later the documents were returned marked 'Conviction quashed because of insufficient evidence'."

    In 1998 the remains of three US Marines stationed on Okinawa were discovered outside of a local village. Accounts from elderly Okinawans verify that the men had made frequent trips to the village to rape the women that lived there but were ambushed and killed by men from the village on one of their return trips. According to the same article, published in 2000,
    "rape was so prevalent that most Okinawans over age 65 either know or have heard of a woman who was raped in the aftermath of the war."

    Okinawan historian Oshiro Masayasu (former director of the Okinawa Prefectural Historical Archives) writes based on several years of research:

    Soon after the US marines landed, all the women of a village on Motobu Peninsula fell into the hands of American soldiers. At the time, there were only women, children and old people in the village, as all the young men had been mobilized for the war. Soon after landing, the marines "mopped up" the entire village, but found no signs of Japanese forces. Taking advantage of the situation, they started "hunting for women" in broad daylight and those who were hiding in the village or nearby air raid shelters were dragged out one after another.

    Grim, but do the horrors suffered by the civilians and troops by the Japanese and Nazis across the globe justify the anger and hatred borne by the allied lads?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    The point is, the Nazi's planned their atrocities.
    Their system was to kill people on purpose, based on an American "Eugenetics" theory.

    And in Russia, the regime of Stalin was very hard.
    But the man was paranoid, and that caused a lot of deaths on his account, but it wasn't in the communist system.
    Yes it was comunist sistem , in base of comunist sistem was killing and robing every richer man and anyone that oposed them , thats what they done during every revolution - Russia ( remember Tzar and his family ) , China , Hungary , Bulgaria , Yugoslavia , Albania , Cambogia ,...
    Comunism is based on revolution- violence and it is crime by itself .
    Lenin sistem killed lot of peoples , and Stalin killed more Russians than a Hitler. You never lived in comunistic country so you dont know what you are talking about .

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    Winers never face consequences of they war crimes , remember Russian and American crimes in Germany ( Dresden bombing , rapings and killings in Prussia , Ukraine and Finland,... ) , Americans crimes agains Native - Americans - they killed almoust all of them ( remember South America where sistem was hard and full of crimes , but they show more mercy then USA) , british crimes against Indians , Germans crimes in German Africa ( nobody blaimed them for that ) , nobody ( not even Stallin ) used atomic bomb except USA which make it most criminal country in world ( speacking about democratie ), what about crimes in Iraq and Afganistan for which no one will respond. So long live hipocracy. Only one that win with sword can take pen and write down history , and that is all that future generations will know unless we change it

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    After the second world war ended, the allies force starved 8 millions germans and took away it's means to feed itself and have a stable economy. It might not count as a war crime, as it was not during the the war, but it's still the victor of a war doing crimes on the looser, and not mentioning it in history books.

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    Hi ultralars, never heard about forced starvation of Germans. I'm assuming, that by forced you meant, it was planed and executed, and not coincidental. Can you link us with something credible.
    If it comes to German starvation, I remember documentaries about Americans feeding West-Berliners.

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    I think ultralars seems to mean WW ONE.
    That was from 1914-1918.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Hi ultralars, never heard about forced starvation of Germans. I'm assuming, that by forced you meant, it was planed and executed, and not coincidental. Can you link us with something credible.
    If it comes to German starvation, I remember documentaries about Americans feeding West-Berliners.
    http://library.flawlesslogic.com/bacque_1.htm

    Read up on " the morgentau plan "

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    History is written by the winners.
    If Nazi had won, we would have probably had a trial for Stalin(if he was still alive) or Bomber Harris, yet this doesn't mean Allied Crimes(including all countrless soviet atrocities) have to be forgotten, indeed, they should be remembered.

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    Yep. Winners are the ones who write history. Why would they hold themselves accountable?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reinaert View Post
    It proves what for a real ass you are.

    And you can't even spell English properly.

    No, I already told the communist rules were stupid.
    They caused a massive hunger.
    Sigh.. Read some books about it.
    Before you enter a European forum.
    You're so pathetic.
    If he is so wrong why do you have to use fallacies like calling him ***** and refering to his bad spelling? Stalin was a big murderer, no doubt. But like every winner after a war his crimes are relativised. Had Hitler won the war he would be considred at least far more bening and not a modern version of Dracula like nowadays. The Holodomor is recognised as a planified famine by USA and many European countries like Spain. So it's not a provocative point of view at all, maybe just for rampant leftists who don't accept facts. I don't know if Stalin was worse or not worse than Hitler, but I would put him in the very same league along with other blood-thirsty communist dictators like Pol-Pot and Mao. I hope my bad spelling is not an impediment to express my thoughts. LOL.

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