European cultures : (1) The French

I feel equally much amused and embarrassed to see how many of 'stereotypes' apply to me - even though my French blood is a relatively small amount (or in the words of my mother "like putting sodium into water" :eek:kashii: :lol: ). But I find myself very much identifying with.........


argumentative and raleur... not afraid to say what they thought, even if it led them into trouble.
Argumentative is my middle name. Maybe it doesn't strike people that way on the internet, because in writing I can make a good effort :smug: but in real life - whew! :souka:

irrespectous of rules and laws => they mentioned that when a new law passed, an average French would determine him/herself whether it was reasonable enough to respect it.

not ashamed to talk openly about it [sex], or to display nudity at any time of the day
Ummmmmmmmm... yeah. Me. :sorry:

when you want to make a business phone call... you shouldn't do it before 9:30 to 10am as they only get started with their day and may be a bit grumpy or disorganised
Hell, my whole working time is spent being grumpy or disorganised... no, both! And heaven help those who call first thing in the morning... :bluush:

the importance of feelings over money in relationship
But I think a lot of people agree on that, yes? I certainly hope so! :souka: (unless that is why I am single... :( )

Strangely, I find Paris to be very friendly compared with the UK (especially London); I found people willing to easily start a relaxed conversation in some bar or other, in a very friendly way and to include you into their circle of friends, which was nice ^^... in the UK by contrast, I find people more reserved in these circumstances... especially in a bar, they will think you're trying to pick them up, or else they will be trying to pick you up... there is less of a how I say 'sense of cameraderie' and a more threatening feeling overall. :souka:

But generalisations / stereotypes, although interesting to discuss :p are of limited value anyway... there are always people who don't fit the stereotype... and then people like me who fit the wrong stereotype! :bluush:

Some of the things, like the working hours thing, are becoming IMO a bit old-fashioned... sure there is still truth in it, but as someone pointed out, things like non-late working depend on the company / business, and how senior the person is; some people will do it, or professional people have to do it.
 
That was an interesting post. You have me interested in the french culture now. A few stereotypes of Frenchmen apply to me. I am very argumentive, and I don't like recieving gifts that cost more money. Wouldn't you rather have someone put their feelings into a gift rather then get an expensive piece of technology? The expensive item is good too, but I'd rather have something that someone put thought into. Not a sleek new iPod, but maybe a book the person thought I would like.
 
French of mine

Maciamo said:
1) The French like complicated things.
- Illustration :
- Example : The Economist describes the French tax system to be of 'fiendish complexity'. They cite, for instance over 40 deductions in the French pay-slip, as opposed to just 2 in Britain.
2) The French are theoretical. They prefer rhetoric, abstractions and ideas to facts and practical thinking.
- if Shakespeare had been a Frenchman, he would have said : "To be or not to be, that is the question. But the question is badly formulated."
- The French favour design over practicality. They like innovation for the sake of creativity, even when there is no practical need for it. (btw, this is all the opposite of the Japanese)
- The French raison d'etre is "measured intellectual performance".
3) The French political dilemma : an autocratic egalitarian society.
They claim to follow the 18th-century Revolutionary values of "liberty, equality and fraternity" (written on coins, stamps, etc.), but France is actually one of the most hierarchical and vertical society in the Western world. The political and economical systems are extremely elitists. A few chosen ones study at the Grandes Ecoles, then join the administration at a high-level from the start to "learn how the system works, and make connections", then become top executives in major public (or private) companies. There are very close ties between big businesses and the government in France, and executives are criticised for knowing better how the government and administration works, than their own company. This creates a huge gap between the top of the company and the rest.
French society and language are also exceedingly formal compared to most other countries.
4) The importance of forging relations.
Like the Spaniards, the French like to create relations with someone over a long lunch before starting making business with them. They need to get to know what kind of the person they are dealing with, and create an emotional bond.
5) The decision-making process
French people (e.g. managers) typically make a quick decision that they might revise later on. This is the opposite of the Germans who think carefully about all the possibilities then make a decision that they will not change afterwards.
There is more to say, but I will stop here for now.


1) I agree. But maybe not only french ppl. Italian rules and taxes are so complicated that is not possible to follow all them. Or this is the reason why I don't follow them :blush:
2) mmm... yes and no, in my opinion. I mean: european latin culture is mainly theoretical (it comes I suppose from greek culture and catholic theology). Anglo saxon have a pragmatic attitude (Including germans, of sure). In philosophy this is much more evident. But as a matter of fact it seems to me that french people are able to put abstractions into reality. Not the same for italians (don't know about spanish or portugal)
3) yes, it seems like this.
4) don't know. But I surely like to lunch with someone to know him/her better.
5) yes. And in Italy is almost the same. Quick decisions. Quick change of mind. Then again a change, and then another one...and so on. :)

It's true that french ppl want you to speak french. Even if I met many kindly french that tried to understand my mix of italian french and english. Yes, in Paris too.

As you said, french ppl doesn't fargot their revolution. Thank to god, I add.
Sometimes they are rude, but without french history, europe could not to be Europe. Simply. In good and bad things. But maybe this is just a personal opinion, not an historical evidence.
 
Here are two quotes from the book A year in the merde, by Sephen Clarke, that I think characterizes well the French mentality, especially in Paris :

- (after his French boss told a "striking" cafe waiter that he didn't care that he was on strike and wanted his dessert)

"I was witnesing an important lesson in Parisian life. I must't try to make people like me. That's much too English. You have got to show them that you don't give a shit what they think. Only then will you get what you want. I'd been doing it all wrong, trying to win people over. If you smile too much, they think you are retarded."

- (page 96, complaining about the ubiquitous dog turds on the Parisian pavements)

"Well, yes, it kind of sums up the French philosophy of life. You only ever think about yourselves. Instead of getting together to stop dogs from pooping on pavements, you just learn how not to step in the merde."

- (page 38, leaving the office for lunch)

"We left the building at 12:30 with "bon appétit" ringing in our ears. The people who saw us called it out like you would say "Happy Christmas". Every lunchtime, it seemed, was a celebration. And why not ?"
 
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Here is something I heard on LCI (a French news and debate channe) and I found excellent :

"Paris is hell, but that's still the place where Parisians prefer to live."
 
hehe, that's pretty funny. :giggle: But to be fair Paris has nice points, but I think it depends whether you have money or not, and what you do for a living. Like life in any city, "it's alright for some". :wary:
 
In The Secret Life of France, Lucy Wadham largely confirms my description of French culture and mindset.

Compared to the English, she perceives the French as :

- theoretical, obsessed about ideas (as opposed to the pragmatic, factual English)

- conformist and conservative in term of clothing (unlike the eccentric Brits)

- formal and civil when it comes to language (whereas the English are polite but informal)

- relaxed in their attitude to time (a world away from Germanic punctuality)


She rightly points out that French humour is actually more wit, with a heavy use of puns. The Brits, in contrast, like to make fun of themselves (something the image-conscious French can't understand) and have an acute sense of comic, absurd and sarcastic humour. Lucy Wadham writes that the French tend to prefer grandiose tragedy over comedy.

The French and English-speaking definition of freedom differs a lot, Wadham explains. For British or American people, freedom is linked to the sense of property and private space. Being free means owning your own house and having the right to protect it against intruders. I will add that "No trespassing" signs are indeed rare in French-speaking countries (or most of Europe outside the UK and Ireland). The French sense of freedom equates being freed from the burden of working so as to have free time to dedicate to one's hobbies and past times. This cultural difference is best illustrated by the attitude of the French vs British nobility in past centuries. While the French nobles had to leave their castle to attend the King's court in Versailles, the British aristocracy spent as much time (and money) in their castle as possible, because a big castle was the paragon of their status. Freedom for the French meant being able to enjoy your time as you liked, even if that meant staying at the King's court and abandoning their castle.

Gender roles represent another major cultural gap across the Channel. The Brits, like other Germanic and Protestant nations have become strongly feminist, giving rise to a strong tension between men and women. Men go out together, and women together, but the two groups do not mix much socially when they can avoid each others. France, like other Latin and Catholic countries, is just the opposite. Gender roles have not been shaken much by feminism in France, and society has consequently preserved a certain gender harmony, where men enjoy socialising with women and vice versa. Indeed, the French would be very bored without these constant male-female interactions and seduction games.

This relates to another primary cultural divergence. Aesthetics is one of the deepest French values. Beauty, elegance and charm are a national obsession. People have to be beautiful to be valued in France, however superficial that may sound to the British ears. In a society where both men and women put so much care (and artifice) about the way they look, it is only natural that seduction and gender roles should be of primordial importance. Wadham writes : "Paris is all about Beauty. Everything else - including such things as commercial gain, prosperity or efficiency - is secondary." She goes on saying that plastic surgery is five times as common in France as in Britain.

Seduction inevitably leads to sex, another French forte. According to a Durex survey I mentioned in the Interesting facts about France on this website, the French are the nation where people have the most sex in a year. Wadham reveals a hidden facet of Parisian bourgeoisie that is much more difficult observe than other cultural aspects of France : adultery. The second chapter of her book is entirely dedicated to it, and the book's title makes a reference to what she calls the Secret Garden, in reference to the French saying that everyone is entitled or his or her jardin secret (meaning "secret love life"). She explains that adultery does not carry the same strong negative feelings as in the UK, or even Italy, and that the French accept it as an inevitable and necessary part of life, as long as it is kept discreet. She says that most married people have at least one secret lover, and that both husbands and wives expect their partner to have one - although they don't want to know about it. France is still a libertine nation.

This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium, and maybe not that common outside the Parisian bourgeoisie. French-speaking Belgium would be much more like puritan Britain, I would say, where men and women are jealous and uncompromising about cheating. The figures speak for themselves; Belgium has the highest divorce rate in Western Europe just above Denmark and the UK.
 
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This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium

...And not shared with France too.

It's just another typical anglo-saxon cliché about France. Useless.
Btw, the part about the French nobles also is completly false.
 
The Brits, in contrast, like to make fun of themselves (something the image-conscious French can't understand) and have an acute sense of comic, absurd and sarcastic humour. Lucy Wadham writes that the French tend to prefer grandiose tragedy over comedy
Please Maciano, stop to talk about france and French culture...

1- To make fun of ourself is the national sport in France...

2-We prefer tragedy???
Shakespeare was English...Molière was French...
The biggests success of our cinema in our country are:
-Bienvenue chez les ch'ti (comedy)...
-La grande vadrouille (comedy)...
-Les visiteurs (comedy)...
-Le corniaud (comedy)...
-Astérix et Obélix (comedy)...
-Le bronzés (comedy)...
-Le diner de cons (comedy)...
-etc...
 
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VonRoust.. It is a subjective writing of Maciamo.
He just cited... An English article..
And says he largely agrees with it.

Well, I don't.

In The Secret Life of France, Lucy Wadham largely confirms my description of French culture and mindset.

It only proves how wrong the English think about Europe.
People in Belgium have a tendency to have a garage sale of their own heritage and culture.
First they supported the Spanish, then the Austrians, then the French, then the Germans, and now the British and Americans.
 
People in Belgium have a tendency to have a garage sale of their own heritage and culture.
First they supported the Spanish, then the Austrians, then the French, then the Germans, and now the British and Americans.

What are you talking about ? It is not because what is now Belgium passed from one country to another that Belgians "supported" these countries. I fail to grasp your point.
 
Please Maciano, stop to talk about france and French culture...

1- To make fun of ourself is the national sport in France...

VonRoust, you misunderstand a lot of what I write. I think it is because of your level of English. French people might like to make fun of other French people, or to criticise the government. But it is a rare thing to hear French people in an international community making fun of French language, culture and historical heritage. The French are very chauvinistic about their country, language and culture. Almost every time I tell a French speaker that French language has a poor vocabulary compared to English, French people almost automatically protest and try to defend their mother tongue. It's funny because it is also true of native French speakers in Belgium. I am myself a native French speaker, but my multilingualism has led me to have a more critical view of my own mother tongue.

2-We prefer tragedy???
Shakespeare was English...Molière was French...
The biggests success of our cinema in our country are:
-Bienvenue chez les ch'ti (comedy)...
-La grande vadrouille (comedy)...
-Les visiteurs (comedy)...
-Le corniaud (comedy)...
-Astérix et Obélix (comedy)...
-Le bronzés (comedy)...
-Le diner de cons (comedy)...
-etc...

Yes, I have seen all these films, and like all of them. But in the passage I quoted, Lucy Wadham wasn't writing about film-making, or literature for that matter. She was referring to French social and political life, to the way people interact with each others. One excellent example of grandiose tragedy is what is happening with Dominique Strauss-Kahn now. ;) You have to admit that there is little comedy in French business or politics. Contrarily to American, Australian or British politicians or CEO's who like to open a meeting or conference with a joke, the French look very serious. High-ranking French people like to look important, grandiose... France is a very vertical society, where people look up to the boss, and speech is very formal and distant. It contrasts with the much more egalitarian approach of Germanic people (especially Scandinavians) as well as English speakers (especially Australians and Americans).
 
What are you talking about ? It is not because what is now Belgium passed from one country to another that Belgians "supported" these countries. I fail to grasp your point.

Well.. It's very simple. People in Belgium are accustomed to blow with every wind.
I am Dutch, and I know the Dutch have also done that. But don't make an intellectual fuzz about it.

But if there is one thing I don't like, is the way English write about other people.
English humor is very rare.
Only brought by true English intellectuals.. Like the Monty Python team.
For the rest the English are quite boring.
And a lot of humor is very cheap. For instance.. Benny Hill..

In The Netherlands cabaret and also stand up comedians with a sharp political and sarcastic style of entertaining were influenced by comedians in Paris.
In Belgium the people were totally unaware of that.
Some Belgian artists were only accepted in Belgium, after they had a successful tour in The Netherlands.

I know the people of the French speaking part of Belgium wanted to identify themselves with France years ago, but the French only see them as "More Roman than the Pope".

I speak 4 languages, Dutch, German, French and English, and I pretty well experienced what Europeans think of each other.

And my sympathy goes to...
France.. Twelve Points... Douze Points.
Germany.. Eleven Points ... Onze Points.

This were the points I give. The rest gets nothing.

One remark.. I hope the French kick Sarkozy out of office soon.

And Maciamo, it isn't very wise to cite a text from an English writer.
They didn't die from the first lie they wrote, and even all the other lies they produced after that.

The best way to solve a lot of problems in the EU is to throw the English out!

 
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The best way to solve a lot of problems in the EU is to throw the English out!
But they do a lot of things with European countries...

With the passage of time, our economics and political differences will disappear and they will understand that U.E. is the best way to peace and social innovations...

The French has changed their point of view about England since "Eurotunnel" have been built...and i think the reverse is true :drunk:

They are our oldest allies and our best enemies...
 
The French are theoretical. They prefer rhetoric, abstractions and ideas to facts and practical thinking.
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.

Find me, in the English litterature, something that can compare to La Démocratie en Amérique by Alexis de Tocqueville: nothing, niets, nada!

Have you ever read Das Spektrum Europas, of Hermann Keyserling? If not, you should. This book was first published in the 20's and is still amazingly insightful. Here again, the quality of equivalent British/American essays is just appalling.
 
IFrance is still a libertine nation.

This was a revelation even to me, as this part of French culture is not shared with Belgium, and maybe not that common outside the Parisian bourgeoisie. French-speaking Belgium would be much more like puritan Britain, I would say, where men and women are jealous and uncompromising about cheating. The figures speak for themselves; Belgium has the highest divorce rate in Western Europe just above Denmark and the UK.
Divorce rate is per se of no significance if marriage rate is not taken into account.
In France, like in Scandinavia and UK, about half of all births happen out of wedlock. Surprisingly, Belgium clusters with Southern Europe with less than 25%, which probably reflects the strength of the Catholic church in Flanders.

I recently had a look on Mrs Wadham's book. Honestly, it's a heap of sweeping generalizations and flat out demented assumptions. One of few interesting pages is the one when she says being ashamed at the pervading and illogical British hatred of the French, which she admits is not at all reciprocated.
 
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.

I'm feeling something,....feeling strong emotions.... emotions of ....hmmm,...nationalizem?
Viva la France!
 
Let's rephrase it: The French are keen at collecting solid significant facts able to support a valid theory.
The Brits (and Americans), when it comes to foreign cultures, tend to pick up irrelevant facts, randomly chosen, biased enough to suggest assumptions actually made out of thin air.

And you expect me to think that you are not entirely biased toward your country ? (to the point of jingoistic bigotry, obviously)
 
Divorce rate is per se of no significance if marriage rate is not taken into account.
In France, like in Scandinavia and UK, about half of all births happen out of wedlock. Surprisingly, Belgium clusters with Southern Europe with less than 25%, which probably reflects the strength of the Catholic church in Flanders.

You are not contradicting my assertion that France is more libertine than Belgium, Britain or Germanic countries. The French are much more free about sex, more open about marriage and take cheating more lightly, almost as an inevitable part of life.

It's interesting that in that regard the French are culturally closer to the Japanese, with the notable difference that the French are less scrupulous about dissimulating their affairs (the French would have sex with their extra-marital lovers at work, in a car or even in the conjugal bed, rather than in a discreet and anonymous "love hotel", ubiquitous in Japan).
 
The thing I find most perplexing about the French is the reluctance to accept new words into the language, or to borrow words from other languages.
This is my first post on the forum. I am the first generation born in the US from a French speaking family from Quebec. I am trying to understand my French heritage and this seems to be a wonderful place to learn. I believe to learn a culture one has to understand their history. Not the history of kings and queens but the history of the people. So I pose this more as a question then a statement. My understanding of Modern French is that in reality it is a relatively new language. Before the French revolution if one left Paris and traveled into the interior of France a person would have a great deal of difficulty understanding the langauge. In fact one village would find it difficult to understand the next village. The French revolution took great efforts to standardize the language and eradicate these dialects. Eventually not speaking proper French was taken as a sign of ignorance and through time generalized to all non french languages. This is just a speculative thought.
 
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