Should Turkey Join The EU?

[barbarian]

If the answer is that you feel closer to us, i think you are european, i think being european you hav to embrace christian values (not being christian), but to be like the christians are in europe, and not muslim (that is still like medieval christianism, cruciades etc..).
and if you feel european you have to break all your ties to the muslim world because europe doesn't need muslim values. and obviously by breaking ties with the muslmi you don't have to feel proud of being muslim.
muslim world and europe are the opposite, you see it nowdays and in the past when for ex. in spain, southern italy, greece and the balkans muslim were considered the evil, and the in most cases foght them back, opposing to their values. europe exist as today what it is because the countries of europe bordering the mediterranean didn't want muslim values.

the funnier part came after my reply by edit.
the europen values do not come from christianity. they mostly comes from ancient greece. christianity, itself, comes from mesapotomia/anatolia. there is no native european religion at the moment.

rest of your pharagraph is so absurd and affrontly, even for a atheist, that i will not even response.

[barbarian]

I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey

of course turkish people feel closer to other islamic countries than christian countries. but believe me, most of them less radical then you.

see you tomorrow.
peace

[julia90]

the funnier part came after my reply by edit.
the europen values do not come from christianity. they mostly comes from ancient greece. christianity, itself, comes from mesopotomia. there is no native european religion at the moment.

rest of your pharagraph is so absurd and affrontly, even for a atheist, that i will not even response.

then instead the comes from muslim value, christianity has shaped europe for 2.000 years, it has had an influence. of course christianity was not the only value that shaped europe.
you are right we are laic, but there are indirect influence of christianity in europe.

listen to, me i want your sincere opinions, i search a confront, not because i want to starts arguments, or increase intollerance etc.
is turky enough distanciated from traditional muslim values?do you not care to be annexed to christian (indirect influenced) europe? do you like europeans monuments (of wich churches compose a majour architecture) how do you feel about european ancient history (of which the church played a major role)?

[julia90]

of course turkish people feel closer to other islamic countries than christian countries. but believe me, most of them less radical then you.

see you tomorrow.
peace

that is the point, most of eu country are laic with christian indirect influenced.
my opinion is that turkey to enter in eu, should feel closer to eu countries than the other muslim countries, otherwise it's not part of europe, it's part of something else.

I appreciate turkey, because it's mostly laic, and it's growing fast economically, and this are the point that makes it closer to europe, another point of closer to europe it's part of turkish history, the bizantine empire (who ad an influence in italy and in the balkans).

But muslim "brotherhood" it's what distanciate turky from europe.

[Elias2]

@ Julia

Christianity is not what modern europe is based on, it is based on Greco-roman values and thought. It was called the Renaissance because europe went away from christian ways to more classic way of thinking, and it worked. Of course religion will always be around, it's the opium for the masses, but it should never again have the power it held during the middle ages.

The problem for muslims countries, and uneducated muslims, is they never had a renaissance. The Ottoman empire never went through what europe did from the 15th-19th century (barbarian I'm not trying to take a shot at you), it was basically a medieval empire from start to end. They never had a separate institution for church (mosque) and state either, which is why the two never really grew apart and only now are they are trying to modernise and are facing problems with secularism and radical groups trying to bend politic to their like.

"Christian" countries in europe arn't really christian anymore, it's more of a cultural inheratance. Some people might take christianity seriously but I would say most don't, which is why when they look at muslims countries where they do infact take it serious, europeans feel alienated to them and to muslims. There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

I think turkey might actually be going away from secularism to a more conservative, non-attaturk way of governance thanks to AKP, which is a slippery slope. Even though the Roman Empire was in North Africa and the levent, people there just don't want to look at it as an example.

[Antigone]

I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey

Common sense would tell anyone that the feeling of "brotherhood" amongst the people of Turkey is as fractured and complicated as it is in any country of the world.

Even so it is hardly a fair demand Julia, how can Barbarian give anything but his personal opinion when you yourself have given us nothing but your personal opinion, certainly not the opinion of Italy or the EU as a whole.

[Antigone]

There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

Not even Greece anymore, the older generation still cling to the church but the younger generations are as disillusioned with organised religion as the rest of Europe. Churches are empty except for a handfull of the elderly and if asked, the majority of younger people would describe themselves as athiest.

[julia90]

@ Julia

Christianity is not what modern europe is based on, it is based on Greco-roman values and thought. It was called the Renaissance because europe went away from christian ways to more classic way of thinking, and it worked. Of course religion will always be around, it's the opium for the masses, but it should never again have the power it held during the middle ages.

The problem for muslims countries, and uneducated muslims, is they never had a renaissance. The Ottoman empire never went through what europe did from the 15th-19th century (barbarian I'm not trying to take a shot at you), it was basically a medieval empire from start to end. They never had a separate institution for church (mosque) and state either, which is why the two never really grew apart and only now are they are trying to modernise and are facing problems with secularism and radical groups trying to bend politic to their like.

"Christian" countries in europe arn't really christian anymore, it's more of a cultural inheratance. Some people might take christianity seriously but I would say most don't, which is why when they look at muslims countries where they do infact take it serious, europeans feel alienated to them and to muslims. There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

I think turkey might actually be going away from secularism to a more conservative, non-attaturk way of governance thanks to AKP, which is a slippery slope. Even though the Roman Empire was in North Africa and the levent, people there just don't want to look at it as an example.

You are wrong christianity shaped europe.
But as you said i'm afrad turkey might not be enough secularised; muslim values don't fit in europe

[julia90]

Common sense would tell anyone that the feeling of "brotherhood" amongst the people of Turkey is as fractured and complicated as it is in any country of the world.

Even so it is hardly a fair demand Julia, how can Barbarian give anything but his personal opinion when you yourself have given us nothing but your personal opinion, certainly not the opinion of Italy or the EU as a whole.

The opinion on italy, is that we feel brotherhood to europe, not to the muslim world, as we have never been muslim.

[Antigone]

You are wrong christianity shaped europe.
But as you said i'm afrad turkey might not be enough secularised; muslim values don't fit in europe

Don't you see the contradiction in what you have written?

[Antigone]

The opinion on italy, is that we feel brotherhood to europe, not to the muslim world, as we have never been muslim.

You are allowing your own religious bias to interfere in what should be a political consideration. As far as I am aware it is immaterial what religious beliefs a person holds within the EU, isn't that why a person's religious affiliation is no longer printed on ID cards?

[Elias2]

EU Parliament approved the annual progress report for Turkey’s accession



As it was scheduled today the European Parliament held a vote on the progress report for Turkey’s accession process. The results of the vote approved the original report without amendments that would make Turkey’s path easier.
The report characterizes the progress of Turkey as still being at the starting point of a long-lasting process. Critical to the vote were the recent arrests of journalists in Turkey with the EU MP’s being concerned about the deterioration of freedom, and censorship of press. It was also noted that Turkey has made no progress in the last 8 months which is the longest period of inactivity since the process begun in 2005. For fifth consecutive year Turkey has failed to fulfil the Copenhagen criteria meaning that the conditions of the Turkish judiciary, have not yet improved sufficiently to ensure the right to a fair and timely trials. The EU Parliament has also requested that Turkey stops the flow of immigrants from Turkey to Northern Cyprus immediately to avoid changing the demographic character of the territory at a time when reunification talks are being made. The report also mentions the fact that Turkey has not stopped the acts of aggression towards Greece, and stresses that the Greek air space violations should stop. Furthermore, reference is made to the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, which is signed by the 27 EU members plus all other candidate states except Turkey, and is invited to do so immediately.


http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/03...eys-accession/

[GP850mAh]

In my opinion it shouldn't. In fact I think it should give up some of its European, such as Istanbul and the lands West of it. Most of its land is in the Middle East and it would be better if they were to join the Middle Eastern or West Asian Union if such a union takes place. I don't even think it should be a candidate.
What do you think?

No, I don't think they should join for geographical reasons. Only 3% of Turkey is in Europe, the rest is in the middle east. It would be much harder to controll EU's external borders with Turkey as a member since the EU would then have to controll 3-4 different borders against middle eastern countries rather than just against Turkey. We should instead form a partnership and cooperate with them like we do with Russia, but they should not become a member state.

[Rastko Pocesta]

No way! Turkey is an undemocratic dictatorship. If it reforms, it may join, but today's Turkey is far from the European principles of free, open societies and pluralist democracies.

[Elias2]

Turkey to enforce compulsory Internet filtering in August

On 22nd August in a move that many now call ‘The End of Internet’ Turkey will implement a country-wide Internet filter which will classify connections into 4 categories: child, family, domestic and standard. Users will be called to choose one of the four options but according to Internet advocates, even the least restricting option ‘Standard’ is still government mandated and government controlled.Turkey already has a track record of banning access to websites; it is believed that at least 12,000 sites are not accessible from Turkey, the list at times including some high profile sites such as YouTube. The list of blocked sites is kept secret. Recently the Turkish Telecommunications Directorate has also banned 138 words from being part of Turkish domain names (this includes words such as ”gay,” “beat,” “escort,” “homemade,” “hot,” “nubile,” “free”, “teen” and the number 31 which apparently in Turkey is slang for male masturbation (for example ‘hotmail.com.tr’ is not be accessible since it contains the word ‘hot’. Currently many internet users browse the web through proxies abroad to gain access to these banned websites but this is only a temporary solution since under the new regulations, attempts to circumvent the filters will be considered a criminal act and face heavy fines.


http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/05...ing-in-august/

Ankara government controls the media and now the internet in turkey. It looks like they're taking tips from their new friend Iran.

[Elias2]

The "modern" and "free" contemporary Turkey, where freedom of speach is of upmost value.

Netherlands grants asylum to ex-judge charged in Turkey


"A former Turkish judge who says he was prosecuted for his views on the fate of Armenians and Kurds has been granted asylum in the Netherlands.
Cagatay Cetin, who is of Armenian-Kurdish descent, claimed asylum after arriving in the country in January last year.
Charges against him in Turkey include forging documents and false accusation.
The Dutch government refused to say why Cetin had been granted asylum, adding it did not comment on individual cases.
Turkey has prosecuted individuals who describe the mass killing of Armenians in the early 20th Century as genocide.
Mr Cetin says he did "insult Turkish identity" - a criminal offence according to Article 301 of the country's penal code - by saying a genocide of Armenians had happened, his lawyer in the Netherlands, Marq Wijngaarden, told BBC News Online.
Mr Wijngaarden said his client had been accused under Article 301.
"He was interrogated on this accusation by a Dutch court, at the request of the Turkish prosecutor," he added.
Mr Cetin admits he left Turkey under a false passport, his lawyer said, but insists he did not forge documents or make false accusations."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13467865

But in the mind of Turkey they won't get in EU because they are a muslim country and EU is a "christian" club.

[DVDK]

I don't think Turkey will ever join the European Union, just way to many important European countries are against.
The most populair excuse would be that it isn't even inside Europe at all, but rather Asia.
Another excuse would be that they're afraid that a lot of Turkies will move to West-Europe for work, getting flooded by non-native language speakers, who wouldn't accept the countries cultural values.
A problem which a lot of politicians discuss every day in especially West-Europe.

[Antigone]

Well that may be the excuses or justifications given but it is not really about a lot of Turks moving into Europe for work, there are already a lot of Turkish immigrants inside Europe and with very little problems, culturally, linguistically or otherwise. Plus there are labour shortages in Europe which Turkish membership in the EU would help to fill.

The real reason that larger EU countries like France and Germany block Turkish membership is because France and Germany are the biggest manufacturers of weapons in the EU and whilst Turkey and Greece are at each others throats there is much money to be made in the sale of submarines, ships, planes, helicopters and arms etc. Greece, for example, is in favour of Turkey joining because it will put and end to the endless squabbling and territorial incursions into Greek air and sea space but the larger countries continually block the move.

[Mzungu mchagga]

Well that may be the excuses or justifications given but it is not really about a lot of Turks moving into Europe for work, there are already a lot of Turkish immigrants inside Europe and with very little problems, culturally, linguistically or otherwise. Plus there are labour shortages in Europe which Turkish membership in the EU would help to fill.

The real reason that larger EU countries like France and Germany block Turkish membership is because France and Germany are the biggest manufacturers of weapons in the EU and whilst Turkey and Greece are at each others throats there is much money to be made in the sale of submarines, ships, planes, helicopters and arms etc. Greece, for example, is in favour of Turkey joining because it will put and end to the endless squabbling and territorial incursions into Greek air and sea space but the larger countries continually block the move.

Nah, I don't think so!
First of all, and please be honest, do you really think that Greeks want Turkey in the EU because it stops their military aggression? What does it change for Turkey if Aegean territory is in the EU or not?
And secondly, even though the German arms industry will of course get hurt if the exports drop -like actually any army if there's peace- it's influence on the German government is not that high as it might seem. The arms export contributes about 1% of the German GDP (with about again 1/4 of it to Turkey and Greece). Basically the goal of any government is to create economic stability in all regions, which can only be preserved by reduction of any conflicts. So peace in the Aegean would create a higher benefit than the export of arms, especially as it's a region within the EU.
Also I have never heard about a serious debate of keeping Turkey outside of the EU for THIS reason.

[LeBrok]

Exactly Mzungu, not sure why people still believe that weapon industry have such big influence over governments and dictate polices.
It's been proved again and again in last century, that peaceful coexistence and economic cooperation between nations does more good for citizens than benefiting from arm sales and making wars. In majority of countries arm industries are 1% or less GDP. They don't have much of a voice in general politics.

[Marianne]

Not even Greece anymore, the older generation still cling to the church but the younger generations are as disillusioned with organised religion as the rest of Europe. Churches are empty except for a handfull of the elderly and if asked, the majority of younger people would describe themselves as athiest.

I don't agree 100%. Churches are empty of young people, but only a few describe themselves as atheist. They do when they are at their teen years, but after the age of 20 I have met very few people who don't believe in God. I think that the majority of teenagers just call themselves atheist just because during teen years they want to feel special and rebel against their parents. When their hormones balance out they believe again!

[Antigone]

It wasn't teenagers I was thinking of actually as they are too young to know their own mind fully. It was my children and their sphere of friends and aquaintances, both where we live and away at their universities and the age range is from 24 and over. Very few would admit to believing in God. That, as you say, may still change later (for some) when marriage and children come along but even so, the church will never again see the devotion to which it became accustomed and which the older generations display.

The younger generations are well educated, articulate and are able to think for themselves, thus the control and power of the church over the population of Greece has been broken, finally.

[Benkimim]

As a Turk, I'm against. We don't need the E.U., we grow up very fast and need no union or alliance. Turkey is a secular republic but I think that the government must work more on this and be more laic. When Erdogan is gonna leave the position of prime minister, I think & hope that Turkey will be a better country... I think that Turkey should stop those "muslim" relations with so called "muslim BROTHER countries" It makes me sick... I'm against, Turkey should return to former values of Atatürk. Peace!

[Selim]

I definetely don't want Turkey to join E.U,it's completely nonsense and baseless.Neither Europans nor Turks want this.

[Cimmerianbloke]

The EU should suspend all current membership applications until 2015 or at least before the current crisis is sorted. The founding fathers technique to allow peace to prosper was to intertwine the members destinies so closely war would not be possible anymore. We see the damage that naive thinking has done. The EU is a monster with many heads and no brains, and no nervous system to coordinate her. She is a Frankenstein creature on the loose. EU, Eurozone, NATO, ECB, absolutely nothing makes sense. Allowing Turkey to join would be risking a major upheaval from an economic, political and cultural point of view. We're still struggling to come to terms with the previous enlargement, and it might take a generation to realize if it was successful or not. To add my 2 cents to the previous posts of this link, I think modern Europe has herself inspired from Christian values, and from Renaissance and the French revolution to develop into her current form.