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View Poll Results: Should Turkey Join The EU?

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Thread: Should Turkey Join The EU?

  1. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    I guess the Turks will never be European, then.



    You Eurpeans could like Israel all that you like...

    That doen't I give it the right to attack neighbouring countries or peoples, like it did with Lebanon in 2006 or more recently in Ghaza.

    For me it will be interesting to know your opinion about the civilians killed in those aggressions...

    And don't worry, Julia90, I PERSONALLY ASSURE YOU that Erdogan is not "begging" the entrance in the E.U.

    Please, tell me what you think about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY83lsO5VrM

    Regards.
    I think he and whoever supports that position in the video is a big hypocrite. He tells the isreali presedent he should be ashamed for killings of arabs when he can't admit about two genocides that happened 100 years ago. His position on isreal is occupying arab land when northern cyprus still exists. He goes to germany and tells them its a crime to intergrate germans when thats what turks have forcefully been doing to the kurds for 100 years now.

    He is not a very smart person, and probably one of the reasons Turkey's EU accension is going so badly.

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    What kind of integration do the Germans want for the Turks living there?

    What will be your ideal of integration?.

    Could the Turks even become German, in all the sense of the word, like for example, a second generation Irish or German could become an "American", "Canadian" or "Brazilian"?
    To answer your last question first:
    No, I don't think so! It is a cliché I have to bring up, but I think there is some truth in it: The nations USA, Canada and Brazil are partly based on immigration, built up by people who migrated there and therefore also smooth the way for immigrants to come. It is in the mentality of the citizens. Of course those countries, due to some economic or social reasons, have their prejudices, too, and try to limit or widen immigration on certain targets of people who want to enter the country. But in Germany it is something different:
    It is a sad thing to say, and when I mention it infront of other Germans they usually agree ashamed to it, but still after over 60 years the nation is mostly based on "Blut und Boden", means, this country is for German blood line only. It happens subconsciously and without intended awareness. If it comes to Turks, if you speak fluently German, were born here, even your grandparents were born here, have German citizenship, studied at a German university, you will remain the Turk! Doesn't mean they are not tolerated to live here as long as the Germans don't feel disturbed.
    Other way round, immigrants who come to a country like Germany come for different reasons than for example to USA. If someone migrates to the USA, he wants to become American. If someone migrates to Canada, he wants to become Canadian. If someone migrates to Brazil, he wants to become Brazilian. But hardly someone wants to become German when migrating to Germany, the main reason is economics!
    Things are slowly changing, and both the views of Germans as well as immigrants are becoming somewhat different. But there is still a long way to go.

    Strangely, Germans and non-Turkish immigrants never really had a problem in the last decades with this attitude, simply because there was no reason to argue about. Italians, Greeks, Yugoslavians and other South and Eastern Europeans (ay, there is it again, thought I never wanted to use the terms South and East again ) lived peacefully apart together. These immigrants spoke their homeland languages at home, cooked their homeland meals, held their homeland parties, but, they did their work very well, paid taxes, simply did no trouble... And after some while intermarriages became more and more common and today you can't tell the difference anymore between a German and third-generation Italian in Germany.
    Things changed when the Turks arrived. I don't think so much that it was mainly Islam which played the major role, but see, those people didn't come from Istanbul or Ankara. They came from remote places of East-Anatolia, bringing customs and social structures very different from all previous immigrants. These families were heavily based on patriarchal structures, customs differed widely from other Europeans, with different values, and much less education than other Europeans brought. Even here, as long as the "guest-workers" (means they were supposed to leave soon again) did the dirty work Germans didn't want to do, this was no problem. But as more and more family members moved to Germany, social problems became more obvious: families were huge and only a few did feed the family through jobs (job means here for Germans: work that provides taxes!), although through living here social services could be entitled. And I can tell you from my experience, even besides that, working motivation is a little different from other Europeans... Of course not all East Anatolians are like that, it might also be the minority, but there is a fair number, or what I can call a huge minority of them! Moreover, of course from wellfare alone you can't make a living on the long run either, which is a problem for the kids who want to wear cool clothes of brand names and the latest technology. Which subsequently leads to the "criminal foreigner"...

    Funny thing is that I can't even blame those Turkish immigrants. They are just living in the way they always lived, acting in the range of the basic conditions of law and society, confronted with their own problems within these conditions, too. Germans and also our politicians never really made any effort to understand their culture, make a comparison between theirs and ours, and see how to find an agreement and thus motivational input for integration. As I already mentioned at the beginning, things are very slowly changing by the usage of Turkish methods, incentives and restrictions, to practically push Turks into education and jobs that support our social system and not just making use of it (my most realistic ideal of integration btw). Some very small successes could already been observed.

    And now comes the part that upsets me. Each time such a small success could be made, we have a group of Turks who argue they have violently deprived of their culture and been forced to live a life they didn't want to. These are small trouble makers, but I hate it, and it happens often enough, that some Turkish media supports their aims, and especially it upsets me when some Mr. Erdogan, who actually knows about this problem very well, is only interested in the votes and feelings of the people of his country (and the people of Turkish nationality here can vote for him in elections!), ignoring the trouble abroad, only interested in his very own benefit. And it is the same he does when he deals with EU or Arab policy. Yes, he is a very good strategist...

  3. #203
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    It is good that I could clarify things with people...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    I think he and whoever supports that position in the video is a big hypocrite. He tells the isreali presedent he should be ashamed for killings of arabs when he can't admit about two genocides that happened 100 years ago. His position on isreal is occupying arab land when northern cyprus still exists. He goes to germany and tells them its a crime to intergrate germans when thats what turks have forcefully been doing to the kurds for 100 years now.
    OK, Elias2... you live in Canada... and how do I know that, besides that, you are not, say, Greek or Armenian?

    In which case you could say whatever you need to say (out of, at least explainable, anger), and I will not respond.

    I will defend Erdogan and Turkey for other reasons, with other people.

    He is not a very smart person, and probably one of the reasons Turkey's EU accension is going so badly.
    Again, he is not really interested in that. He has more important and productive things to think about.

    Regards.

  4. #204
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    @Mzungu Mchagga...

    I have read what you wrote... and I have to think about it.

    My first assessement of what you say, I will qualify it as very honest.

    (I don't know if it is a compliment or insult... but I think you are the most honest German I have talked in Internet in more than 5 years).

    So, I have to think my answer.

    Regards.

    (Good night).

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++

    P.S.

    Why you use an African(?) nickname? It's cool... besides of being Nurse you were interested also in African Cultures or Anthropology?

    +

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    It is good that I could clarify things with people...



    OK, Elias2... you live in Canada... and how do I know that, besides that, you are not, say, Greek or Armenian?

    In which case you could say whatever you need to say (out of, at least explainable, anger), and I will not respond.

    I will defend Erdogan and Turkey for other reasons, with other people.



    Again, he is not really interested in that. He has more important and productive things to think about.

    Regards.
    You can attack me personaly all you want but you can't attack my argument. If you want me to make personal comments about you and mexicans, I will, but I don't want to. He is very interested in EU membership, but in order for that to happen turkey needs to clean the skeletons out of its closet, which means the things I listed in my previous post. If Turkey suddenly decides not to persue membership, these issues will still not go away, and will have very big consequences on Turkey.

  6. #206
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    I find the opinion that everyone in the EU should all be christian and look the same rather odd, isn't it part of the EU's tennants that everyone has the right to religious, political and ethnical self expression? It can't be any other way, or we return to the bad old days of racial and religious discrimination or Nazism.

    Be all that as it may, I don't think Turkey should join the EU simply because Turkey is geographically not in Europe. Except for that little bit around Constantinople/Istanbul which is neither here nor there, Turkey is a part of the Asian land mass.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elias2 View Post
    You can attack me personaly all you want....
    And where, supposedly, I placed my "attacks"...

    ... but you can't attack my argument.
    I didn't intended to do so.

    If you want me to make personal comments about you and mexicans, I will, but I don't want to.
    Do what you want... then.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Now, to leave things clear... I do not want to enter in an argument about...

    a. If Turkey should enter the E.U. (it will not).
    b. If Turkey commited genocide against Armenians.
    c. If Turkey is being unfair or started the things in Cyprus...
    d. If Turkey opress or not the Kurds...
    f. Etcetera...

    (I hold to myself completedly my opinions about those things).

    The reason that I see the government of Erdogan so good, is that Turkey, as a nation State, simply maneouvered in the last years to give himself a patriotic goverment, that follows the best interest of its people, and that reflects the most positive face of said people. That thwarted plots intended to doblegate Turkey into a role of mere tool to imperialist designs, in the face of the most shameless blackmails, threats, and international intrigue, that I remember, and that now follows an internal and external policy popular among the best of its people.

    Very summarized, is as simple as that.

    Why, if not, is then so much hate and character assassination in the "West", against a man such as Erdogan, and the people of Turkey?

    Stories like this, regretably, we don't see to often.

    Regards.

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    Lynx


    It already has Spain. Do you think is working?

    Do you like the amazing socio-economic progress you are experiencing as of today?

    Don't forget to say "thanks".
    Spain's population: 45 milliions.
    Turkeys' population: 78 millions.

    Anyways, your reply is moronic and trollesque, as usual.

    Regards.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    And where, supposedly, I placed my "attacks"...



    I didn't intended to do so.



    Do what you want... then.

    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

    Now, to leave things clear... I do not want to enter in an argument about...

    a. If Turkey should enter the E.U. (it will not).
    b. If Turkey commited genocide against Armenians.
    c. If Turkey is being unfair or started the things in Cyprus...
    d. If Turkey opress or not the Kurds...
    f. Etcetera...

    (I hold to myself completedly my opinions about those things).

    The reason that I see the government of Erdogan so good, is that Turkey, as a nation State, simply maneouvered in the last years to give himself a patriotic goverment, that follows the best interest of its people, and that reflects the most positive face of said people. That thwarted plots intended to doblegate Turkey into a role of mere tool to imperialist designs, in the face of the most shameless blackmails, threats, and international intrigue, that I remember, and that now follows an internal and external policy popular among the best of its people.

    Very summarized, is as simple as that.

    Why, if not, is then so much hate and character assassination in the "West", against a man such as Erdogan, and the people of Turkey?

    Stories like this, regretably, we don't see to often.

    Regards.
    For the reasons I listed, also I also don't think turkey will join either. Turkey is still a tool of america and if it tries to difference itself by making growing ties with Iran and syria, which is has been doing, it will only end up in trouble. Beleive it or not Turkey needs the EU more than it needs it, dispite the political rhetoric comming from ankara.
    Last edited by Elias2; 04-03-11 at 16:39.

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mzungu mchagga View Post
    .... Even here, as long as the "guest-workers" (means they were supposed to leave soon again) did the dirty work Germans didn't want to do, this was no problem.

    But as more and more family members moved to Germany, social problems became more obvious: families were huge and only a few did feed the family through jobs .........

    Which subsequently leads to the "criminal foreigner"...
    Mzungu mchagga,

    germany didnt say or made any contract with them saying "you must go back home after 20 years after finishing the dirty work in the country". (by the way do the germans want to do dirty works by themselves now?)

    germany didnt put any qualification criteria or care about the education level in the selection of the workers.

    germany didnt put any quota to prevent the social problems, and let them create their own neighborhoods which would let them live like in their homeland.

    i believe most of the mistakes have done by the germany. and now, they must find a way to solve the problem.

    finally, i dont believe germany wants turks (kurds) integrate to germany. i believe they want them go back home. (it is just a hipothesis).

  11. #211
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    @Elias and Barbarian, I'm still waiting for an explanation how US is controlling Turkey.

    I'm starting to believe that it was the same way it controls Egypt and Libya.
    Many countries take US dollars, even Pakistan, North Korea and Iran. People think, US is paying them, and money means power and control, so obviously US is controlling them. It's an illusion, even the BBC, NBC and US citizens, not mentioning many members on this board, fall pray to it. Even with 100 thousand Marines on the ground the control of Iraq and Afghanistan is difficult and wont last without constant presence of military forces.
    When US wants to exercise this implied control over other countries, what do we hear? The total "Screw you", echoing through Middle East and North Africa these days. US will be better off saving their billions for their debt repayment, and stop being a biggest socker in history of the world.
    The biggest demand and control Obama can exert on Turkey is what side of a table he will sit during joined meeting. All the billions can buy. :)

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    Mzungu mchagga,

    germany didnt say or made any contract with them saying "you must go back home after 20 years after finishing the dirty work in the country". (by the way do the germans want to do dirty works by themselves now?)

    germany didnt put any qualification criteria or care about the education level in the selection of the workers.

    germany didnt put any quota to prevent the social problems, and let them create their own neighborhoods which would let them live like in their homeland.

    i believe most of the mistakes have done by the germany. and now, they must find a way to solve the problem.

    finally, i dont believe germany wants turks (kurds) integrate to germany. i believe they want them go back home. (it is just a hipothesis).
    Yes, I've already said that I can't blame the Turks for coming to Germany. They were offered the jobs, and the government of that time - well actually still today, and not only in that aspect - was really short-sighted and didn't think about anything! They didn't think about the option that people wouldn't want to leave, they didn't think about the option that unemployment in Germany would become a topic one day, they didn't think about the over-aging of society, they didn't think about integrating people into a society that, as already mentioned, was subconsciously for German blood only!

    And yes, now it is our (Germany's) task to think about a solution! In contrast to what the media says and people think, a vast number of Turks are integrated into German society!!! They speak German well, go to work, pay taxes, are unpolitical/quiet and thus don't contradict to what the government says (the ideal subject so to say)*. Thanks to the efforts of the majority of Turkish immigants, not the politicians, they have found their place in German society that doesn't disturb anyone, so I don't see why improved work from German side shouldn't be continued with the huge minority of Turks who are unwilling to fit into the social system.

    Sadly, it is Erdogan who encourages these people not give up their life style. It is hypocricy as I don't think he would have any interest in people in his own country who are not willing to pay their duties and avoid education. But these people are not living in his country, so it's not his problem, plus he needs their votes as they are his support in the upcoming elections. So what better thing to do than telling those people "Relax, do what you want, I'll care for you!"

    Erdogan had to send his daughters to the US because they wouldn't have been allowed to study at university in Turkey wearing a headscarf. I think that says it all! Oh yes, Erdogan is such a cool rebel...



    *Actually we have very good politicians of Turkish descend, Cem Özdemir is one of them!
    Last edited by Mzungu mchagga; 04-03-11 at 22:58.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    Why you use an African(?) nickname? It's cool... besides of being Nurse you were interested also in African Cultures or Anthropology?

    +
    *lol*
    My ex-girlfriend is a Chagga http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagga I've also spend one and a half years in Tanzania (Zanzibar plus mainland) living partly at a Chagga family. Mzungu means "Whitey" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mzungu but can actually been refered to anyone of European or Western descent, who is not African, Asian or Arab. Even black US tourists or our Cuban social worker were all "Mzungu".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sirius2b View Post
    I guess the Turks will never be European, then.



    You Eurpeans could like Israel all that you like...

    That doen't I give it the right to attack neighbouring countries or peoples, like it did with Lebanon in 2006 or more recently in Ghaza.

    For me it will be interesting to know your opinion about the civilians killed in those aggressions...

    And don't worry, Julia90, I PERSONALLY ASSURE YOU that Erdogan is not "begging" the entrance in the E.U.

    Please, tell me what you think about this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oY83lsO5VrM

    Regards.
    Well let's put it in this way, i think turkey is not yet full a laic country, and if we have to take religious countries i prefer those chatolic, ebraic, even buddist.

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    @ Leborke

    America is using turkey to control the middle east. They're not really interested in the people of the middle east but want control over the supply and demand of its oil. The same goes with central asia in the turkic countries like uzbekistan etc. That's why there is also tension between USA and Russia even though USSR fell 20 years ago, they both want control over central asia's oil. (former USSR territories)

    There are reasons why america went in to Iraq and not other countries ruled by a dictator, and now recently USA is pondering using troops in Lybia because the price of oil went up due to the civil war going on.

    Because the american dollar is the universal petrol dollar, any sudden rises causes major economic problems in america which is trying to get out of a recession.

    Now recently Turkey's forign policy is floating back eastward, making economic and social ties with contries that are "enemies" to america; Iran, Syria. The Turkish/Isreali flotilla incident made permanent division between relations of those two said countries and has become a more vocal supporter of the palestinian cause.

    Also if you've noticed, the two biggest supporters of Turkey's EU accension are Britain and America, because they want turkey securely lock in the "west", in other words to continue to ask what they want of it, and for it to follow. This anglo-english duo trying to make the EU a geopolitical "hard" power. Also with Turkey in the EU, Britain can have a partner in EU politics against the current franco-german alliance, which also means USA will have a say in EU politics because it controls both Britain and Turkey.

    What will be more interesting is what turkey's politics will do once NATO starts using more forceful actions to prevent Iran from getting a nuclear bomb. Theocratic dictatorships should not get the bomb, especially ones that threatend other countries existance. Will Turkey invade Iran? will it side with Iran? if the latter is true there could be a fairly significant war looming on the horizon.

    There is a larger game being played here then simply Turkey getting into the EU, like Romania or Bulgaria did, it has alot to do with money, oil, imperialism, and power. And turkey knows this as well and uses the threat of "stopping EU accension" to get what it wants. Why hasn't the EU imposed more sanctions on turkey over northern Cyprus? it threatened to end negotiations. Why hasn't america ackowledged the armenian genocide? beacuse they don't want to hurt theirs ties with turkey, or force it into a friendlier position with Iran. Why is the PKK considered a terriorist organization, or condemed turkey over its treatment of monorities? beacuse america turns a blind eye to it.

    Then there is Isreal, but I don't want to start talking about that.

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    It is exagerated to say that the US controls Turkey, of course it doesn't. It is natural that the US wants an ally on it's side in the Middle East, just like Elias2 explained.

    The other thing is that Britain and the US know that Turkey's membership in the EU would weaken the EU due to hardly overcoming political positions, which would just be their aim. Of course USA and Britain want stabile nations in Europe with strong economies and an open market, no question!!! But not to the prize to loose their own authority in politics and economy! So the aim is to keep the power of the European nations balanced to the degree that peace is preserved and their economies strong, but politically disunited on the international stage.

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    No, Turkey shouldn't join at all. First off, the Turkish immigrants you get in places like Germany aren't the best assimilated types overall. The racist image of them in Germany is referred to them as "Kanaken", you'd be guaranteed to get more of these types if Turkey joined the EU.

    Secondly, they have had a long history of the Ottoman Empire that was foreign to Europe for a long time. They may be the most secular Muslim country, but some of their natives are radical in terms of religious and political ideology.

    Neolithic descended Europeans may have ancient ancestry from Anatolia but that was long ago, autosomally they are different today, regardless of SE Europeans.

    Although, some Greeks, Bulgarians and other Southeastern European folk may cluster with them, this doesn't make them being European as a whole. Also, modern day Western Turks have lots of Balkanic ancestry another reason why they cluster with some Southeastern Europeans.

    In ancient times, Galatia was European, overall Turkey doesn't seem like a good idea to join the EU nowadays. Just my two cents.

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    @ mzungu

    When I say America controls Turkey I mean it gives it incentives to follows a similar foriegn policy path that it want to persue aswell, not that it has actual physical control. If the EU wants real control over its domestic and foreign policy, it needs to say goodby to US troops stationed on the continent. Secondly, it needs to withdraw itself from NATO and form a new EURO military alliance. NATO is to much abused by the US for its own needs.

    Thirdly, there needs to be a more common economic policy to strengthen to eurozone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    I'm starting to believe that it was the same way it controls Egypt and Libya.
    Even with 100 thousand Marines on the ground the control of Iraq and Afghanistan is difficult and wont last without constant presence of military forces.
    lebrok,
    these arabian countries borders were designed mostly by GB. and in that time west was aware of how oil would be important in the future. oil was both gift and curse for arabians. it was curse because oil was too valuable to leave just to arabians. the dictators (they prefer dictators because it is much easier to negotiate with one man) should have shared the profit otherwise they must have gone and new one would come (see iran, iraq, egypt, soon syria,algeria, lybia, iran 2). if you share it there is no problem (see kuwait, saudi arabia, UAE, qatar)-by the way there is no UAE, qatar, kuwait countries in history. they were just designed in small parts to control easier after ww1. what kaddafi said 2 days ago was interesting "i will replace US and western banks and companies with the brasilian and russian ones"

    controlling and occupying are two different words. who needs to occupy such a hot and dirty countries? when you can just control them?
    Last edited by barbarian; 06-03-11 at 02:17.

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    @Mzungu mchagga

    .......... Erdogan..........

    you are lucky to see him once in a year. we have to face him everyday.


    *Actually we have very good politicians of Turkish descend, Cem Özdemir is one of them!

    we dont have it.
    Last edited by barbarian; 06-03-11 at 02:15.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    @Elias and Barbarian, I'm still waiting for an explanation how US is controlling Turkey.
    elias wrote an answer which was close but not same with my thoughts. and i believe some of them comes from my previous replies.

    i also believe that US wants to use turkey to control (in some ways) arabian countries. erdogan is already a hero for arabian countries at the moment. especially after his "serious" arguments with israel president, which was a populist theater game also since the economical relations between the countries are even getting better now.

    i dont believe US go to lybia to stabilize the oil prices, i believe they go there to take the advantage of designing the new lybia. i believe the next target will be algeria. so the new "neighbour" of EU will be US.

    the new alliances of turkey cannot be iran and syria. western countries invested too much in turkey, and there is almost no national company in the country anymore. so they will not allow turkey to be that much radical. but, if erdogan insists on such an idea, it is very easy to replace him with the reserve politicians with the help of very shallow democracy in turkey, just like they did in 2001 where they destroy the biggest 3 political parties in 1 election by creating a economic crisis. and replaced an islamic party (AKP) in 1 year having %33 of the total votes. the votes rised to %42 in the next selection. despite the 2008 crises, these days their vote is estimated around %50. thanks to continious positive economical comments and "hot money" coming from US. 20 years ago there was one islamic party having around %8 of the votes. the other islamic party, where erdogan was their young student before having his own party, accuse them for serving for the benefits of US.

    at the moment %92 of the 30 biggest companies in turkey owned by western companies, export/import ratio is 0.57 (which means turkey needs hot money). after this year, the foreign companies will have the right to have the majority of the media companies (US companies already have some of them but not majority of the shares)

    you can hear everyday from the goverment supporter radios and tvs that how turkish army is corrupted. same radios show sympathy to US and especially obama.

    US supported turkey joins EU to have an extra vote and additional ally in EU. but, they did it so apparently that in fact they complicated the membership issue. because EU started to think that "are we discussing with turkey or with US? why do they want turkey in EU that much?" i believe these days EU membership is impossible because turkish goverment assigned to a new role which is not in EU, but in the east.

    in terms of populatin:even the better educated europeans do not want turkey to join the club (e.g. the monastry school student julia90) because they are muslim. do you think less educated muslim majority in turkey wants to join a christian union? turkish people wanted to join EU, because they saw spain and port. turn into rich countries from poor countries. these days are different, turkey is growing fast (!-illusion) and getting richer while EU has problems, especially spain and port. and most of the people in turkey started to think no need to this christian club, especially, if they dont help each other in crisis times.
    Last edited by barbarian; 06-03-11 at 02:24.

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    when i firstly joined eupedia, i tried to start a treat named "is EU a superpower?". in that topic i wanted to argue how the superpowers fight for the world, the world markets, and the sources in the different parts of the world. but i failed. may be, we can do it now?

    i believe the main powers of the world are EU, Russia (potentially), china. and there is one superpower in the name of US. and this SP wants to control all the world. for this purpose they must limit his competitors sources and markets. soon the arabian/african oil and market will be fully under the control of US.

    i am sure the new targets will be ex-USSR countries like kazakhistan, turkmenistan etc (see the help of turkey). and finally if you control mongolia and provide freedom for tibet you can isolate russia from china and europe from energy sources. there will be only one choice for EU: to ally with russia.

    i believe EU sees this scenario and trying to have stronger market and stronger army. who will fight for EU? who will be the new market? where will you find young workers?

    turkey?

    EU (may) need turkey. and i need EU personally, since i like european values. but, turkish population want EU less and less each day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    even the better educated europeans do not want turkey to join the club (e.g. the monastry school student julia90) because they are muslim. do you think less educated muslim majority in turkey wants to join a christian union? turkish people wanted to join EU, because they saw spain and port. turn into rich countries from poor countries.
    I appreciate what turkey was in the past, christian and bizantine empire.
    The fact is that muslims hate the occidental word (Usa, but also europe, see recent bombing in London and Madrid), so why a muslim country want to join the devil=europe?, the occidental world were women have the same right as the men, muslim refuse our model of society, i think it's too early even for turkey that is the most laic of the muslim countries, because turkey being muslim has ties with other muslim country?

    So i think that europeans and turkish people both have to pose to themselves questions. What do they mean by european union? By being european, what does it mean?, what do they want it to be?, What turkidh feel closer to, european (occidental) or the muslim world?, do turkish people feel their culture more near to our culture?

    If the answer is that you feel closer to us, i think you are european, i think being european you hav to embrace christian values (not being christian), but to be like the christians are in europe, and not muslim (that is still like medieval christianism, cruciades etc..).
    and if you feel european you have to break all your ties to the muslim world because europe doesn't need muslim values. and obviously by breaking ties with the muslmi you don't have to feel proud of being muslim.
    muslim world and europe are the opposite, you see it nowdays and in the past when for ex. in spain, southern italy, greece and the balkans muslim were considered the evil, and the in most cases foght them back, opposing to their values. europe exist as today what it is because the countries of europe bordering the mediterranean didn't want muslim values.

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    Quote Originally Posted by julia90 View Post
    I appreciate what turkey was in the past, christian and bizantine empire.
    The fact is that muslims hate the occidental word (Usa, but also europe, see recent bombing in London and Madrid), so why a muslim country want to join the devil=europe?, the occidental world were women have the same right as the men, muslim refuse our model of society, i think it's too early even for turkey that is the most laic of the muslim countries, because turkey being muslim has ties with other muslim country?

    So i think that europeans and turkish people both have to pose to themselves questions. What do they mean by european union? By being european, what does it mean?, what do they want it to be?, What turkidh feel closer to, european (occidental) or the muslim world?, do turkish people feel their culture more near to our culture?
    those bombers were terrorist. they bombed in istanbul also. dont think that every muslim are terrorist (i am not muslim, but atheist, i have a baphtised daughter).

    you have some neo nazis. does it make italy nazi?

    you speak about laicism, but saying the prequest for EU is being non-islam.

    suprisingly, your last pharagraph is logical. EU must decide:

    will they create a introverted, culturally stronger bonded, humble, safe, union or bigger, more dynamic, expanding, more powerfull (with the extra additions like russia, ukraine) alliance with the less common values.
    Last edited by barbarian; 06-03-11 at 02:31.

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    Quote Originally Posted by barbarian View Post
    those bombers were terrorist. they bombed in istanbul also. dont think that every muslim are terrorist (i am not muslim, but atheist, i have a baphtised daughter).

    you have some neo nazis. does it make italy nazi?

    you speak about laicism, but saying the prequest for EU being non-islam.

    suprisingly, your last pharagraph is logic. EU must decide:

    will they create a cultural, introverted culturally stronger bonded, humble, safe, union or bigger, more dynamic, expanding, more powerfull (with the extra additions like russia, ukraine) alliance with the less common values.
    I understand that they were terrorist, and obviously turkey is the most laic of muslim world. but turkey being muslim has ties with the muslim world i presume. we have to see better what kind of ties it has because in some muslim country (the most integralistic, i saw flags of usa, that is multicultural, but it has "occidental values" being burned, also it's not the people but the class of wich a country is ruled that count. does you ruling class have ties with the most integralistic muslim countries, do your rule class and common people feeel "brotherhood" with the muslim world?

    I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey

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