Politics Should Turkey Join The EU?

@Elias and Barbarian, I'm still waiting for an explanation how US is controlling Turkey.
elias wrote an answer which was close but not same with my thoughts. and i believe some of them comes from my previous replies.

i also believe that US wants to use turkey to control (in some ways) arabian countries. erdogan is already a hero for arabian countries at the moment. especially after his "serious" arguments with israel president, which was a populist theater game also since the economical relations between the countries are even getting better now.

i dont believe US go to lybia to stabilize the oil prices, i believe they go there to take the advantage of designing the new lybia. i believe the next target will be algeria. so the new "neighbour" of EU will be US.

the new alliances of turkey cannot be iran and syria. western countries invested too much in turkey, and there is almost no national company in the country anymore. so they will not allow turkey to be that much radical. but, if erdogan insists on such an idea, it is very easy to replace him with the reserve politicians with the help of very shallow democracy in turkey, just like they did in 2001 where they destroy the biggest 3 political parties in 1 election by creating a economic crisis. and replaced an islamic party (AKP) in 1 year having %33 of the total votes. the votes rised to %42 in the next selection. despite the 2008 crises, these days their vote is estimated around %50. thanks to continious positive economical comments and "hot money" coming from US. 20 years ago there was one islamic party having around %8 of the votes. the other islamic party, where erdogan was their young student before having his own party, accuse them for serving for the benefits of US.

at the moment %92 of the 30 biggest companies in turkey owned by western companies, export/import ratio is 0.57 (which means turkey needs hot money). after this year, the foreign companies will have the right to have the majority of the media companies (US companies already have some of them but not majority of the shares)

you can hear everyday from the goverment supporter radios and tvs that how turkish army is corrupted. same radios show sympathy to US and especially obama.

US supported turkey joins EU to have an extra vote and additional ally in EU. but, they did it so apparently that in fact they complicated the membership issue. because EU started to think that "are we discussing with turkey or with US? why do they want turkey in EU that much?" i believe these days EU membership is impossible because turkish goverment assigned to a new role which is not in EU, but in the east.

in terms of populatin:even the better educated europeans do not want turkey to join the club (e.g. the monastry school student julia90) because they are muslim. do you think less educated muslim majority in turkey wants to join a christian union? turkish people wanted to join EU, because they saw spain and port. turn into rich countries from poor countries. these days are different, turkey is growing fast (!-illusion) and getting richer while EU has problems, especially spain and port. and most of the people in turkey started to think no need to this christian club, especially, if they dont help each other in crisis times.
 
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when i firstly joined eupedia, i tried to start a treat named "is EU a superpower?". in that topic i wanted to argue how the superpowers fight for the world, the world markets, and the sources in the different parts of the world. but i failed. may be, we can do it now?

i believe the main powers of the world are EU, Russia (potentially), china. and there is one superpower in the name of US. and this SP wants to control all the world. for this purpose they must limit his competitors sources and markets. soon the arabian/african oil and market will be fully under the control of US.

i am sure the new targets will be ex-USSR countries like kazakhistan, turkmenistan etc (see the help of turkey). and finally if you control mongolia and provide freedom for tibet you can isolate russia from china and europe from energy sources. there will be only one choice for EU: to ally with russia.

i believe EU sees this scenario and trying to have stronger market and stronger army. who will fight for EU? who will be the new market? where will you find young workers?

turkey?

EU (may) need turkey. and i need EU personally, since i like european values. but, turkish population want EU less and less each day.
 
even the better educated europeans do not want turkey to join the club (e.g. the monastry school student julia90) because they are muslim. do you think less educated muslim majority in turkey wants to join a christian union? turkish people wanted to join EU, because they saw spain and port. turn into rich countries from poor countries.

I appreciate what turkey was in the past, christian and bizantine empire.
The fact is that muslims hate the occidental word (Usa, but also europe, see recent bombing in London and Madrid), so why a muslim country want to join the devil=europe?, the occidental world were women have the same right as the men, muslim refuse our model of society, i think it's too early even for turkey that is the most laic of the muslim countries, because turkey being muslim has ties with other muslim country?

So i think that europeans and turkish people both have to pose to themselves questions. What do they mean by european union? By being european, what does it mean?, what do they want it to be?, What turkidh feel closer to, european (occidental) or the muslim world?, do turkish people feel their culture more near to our culture?

If the answer is that you feel closer to us, i think you are european, i think being european you hav to embrace christian values (not being christian), but to be like the christians are in europe, and not muslim (that is still like medieval christianism, cruciades etc..).
and if you feel european you have to break all your ties to the muslim world because europe doesn't need muslim values. and obviously by breaking ties with the muslmi you don't have to feel proud of being muslim.
muslim world and europe are the opposite, you see it nowdays and in the past when for ex. in spain, southern italy, greece and the balkans muslim were considered the evil, and the in most cases foght them back, opposing to their values. europe exist as today what it is because the countries of europe bordering the mediterranean didn't want muslim values.
 
I appreciate what turkey was in the past, christian and bizantine empire.
The fact is that muslims hate the occidental word (Usa, but also europe, see recent bombing in London and Madrid), so why a muslim country want to join the devil=europe?, the occidental world were women have the same right as the men, muslim refuse our model of society, i think it's too early even for turkey that is the most laic of the muslim countries, because turkey being muslim has ties with other muslim country?

So i think that europeans and turkish people both have to pose to themselves questions. What do they mean by european union? By being european, what does it mean?, what do they want it to be?, What turkidh feel closer to, european (occidental) or the muslim world?, do turkish people feel their culture more near to our culture?

those bombers were terrorist. they bombed in istanbul also. dont think that every muslim are terrorist (i am not muslim, but atheist, i have a baphtised daughter).

you have some neo nazis. does it make italy nazi?

you speak about laicism, but saying the prequest for EU is being non-islam.:embarassed:

suprisingly, your last pharagraph is logical. EU must decide:

will they create a introverted, culturally stronger bonded, humble, safe, union or bigger, more dynamic, expanding, more powerfull (with the extra additions like russia, ukraine) alliance with the less common values.
 
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those bombers were terrorist. they bombed in istanbul also. dont think that every muslim are terrorist (i am not muslim, but atheist, i have a baphtised daughter).

you have some neo nazis. does it make italy nazi?

you speak about laicism, but saying the prequest for EU being non-islam.:embarassed:

suprisingly, your last pharagraph is logic. EU must decide:

will they create a cultural, introverted culturally stronger bonded, humble, safe, union or bigger, more dynamic, expanding, more powerfull (with the extra additions like russia, ukraine) alliance with the less common values.

I understand that they were terrorist, and obviously turkey is the most laic of muslim world. but turkey being muslim has ties with the muslim world i presume. we have to see better what kind of ties it has because in some muslim country (the most integralistic, i saw flags of usa, that is multicultural, but it has "occidental values" being burned, also it's not the people but the class of wich a country is ruled that count. does you ruling class have ties with the most integralistic muslim countries, do your rule class and common people feeel "brotherhood" with the muslim world?

I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey
 
If the answer is that you feel closer to us, i think you are european, i think being european you hav to embrace christian values (not being christian), but to be like the christians are in europe, and not muslim (that is still like medieval christianism, cruciades etc..).
and if you feel european you have to break all your ties to the muslim world because europe doesn't need muslim values. and obviously by breaking ties with the muslmi you don't have to feel proud of being muslim.
muslim world and europe are the opposite, you see it nowdays and in the past when for ex. in spain, southern italy, greece and the balkans muslim were considered the evil, and the in most cases foght them back, opposing to their values. europe exist as today what it is because the countries of europe bordering the mediterranean didn't want muslim values.
the funnier part came after my reply by edit.
the europen values do not come from christianity. they mostly comes from ancient greece. christianity, itself, comes from mesapotomia/anatolia. there is no native european religion at the moment.

rest of your pharagraph is so absurd and affrontly, even for a atheist, that i will not even response.
 
I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey
of course turkish people feel closer to other islamic countries than christian countries. but believe me, most of them less radical then you.

see you tomorrow.
peace
 
the funnier part came after my reply by edit.
the europen values do not come from christianity. they mostly comes from ancient greece. christianity, itself, comes from mesopotomia. there is no native european religion at the moment.

rest of your pharagraph is so absurd and affrontly, even for a atheist, that i will not even response.

:disappointed:
then instead the comes from muslim value, christianity has shaped europe for 2.000 years, it has had an influence. of course christianity was not the only value that shaped europe.
you are right we are laic, but there are indirect influence of christianity in europe.

listen to, me i want your sincere opinions, i search a confront, not because i want to starts arguments, or increase intollerance etc.
is turky enough distanciated from traditional muslim values?do you not care to be annexed to christian (indirect influenced) europe? do you like europeans monuments (of wich churches compose a majour architecture) how do you feel about european ancient history (of which the church played a major role)?
 
of course turkish people feel closer to other islamic countries than christian countries. but believe me, most of them less radical then you.

see you tomorrow.
peace

that is the point, most of eu country are laic with christian indirect influenced.
my opinion is that turkey to enter in eu, should feel closer to eu countries than the other muslim countries, otherwise it's not part of europe, it's part of something else.

I appreciate turkey, because it's mostly laic, and it's growing fast economically, and this are the point that makes it closer to europe, another point of closer to europe it's part of turkish history, the bizantine empire (who ad an influence in italy and in the balkans).

But muslim "brotherhood" it's what distanciate turky from europe.
 
@ Julia

Christianity is not what modern europe is based on, it is based on Greco-roman values and thought. It was called the Renaissance because europe went away from christian ways to more classic way of thinking, and it worked. Of course religion will always be around, it's the opium for the masses, but it should never again have the power it held during the middle ages.

The problem for muslims countries, and uneducated muslims, is they never had a renaissance. The Ottoman empire never went through what europe did from the 15th-19th century (barbarian I'm not trying to take a shot at you), it was basically a medieval empire from start to end. They never had a separate institution for church (mosque) and state either, which is why the two never really grew apart and only now are they are trying to modernise and are facing problems with secularism and radical groups trying to bend politic to their like.

"Christian" countries in europe arn't really christian anymore, it's more of a cultural inheratance. Some people might take christianity seriously but I would say most don't, which is why when they look at muslims countries where they do infact take it serious, europeans feel alienated to them and to muslims. There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

I think turkey might actually be going away from secularism to a more conservative, non-attaturk way of governance thanks to AKP, which is a slippery slope. Even though the Roman Empire was in North Africa and the levent, people there just don't want to look at it as an example.
 
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I want your answer (not of your pesonal belives, you are an atheist and you don't care about muslim values), but i want your ansver of what thecommon feeling of "brotherhood" are among people in turkey

Common sense would tell anyone that the feeling of "brotherhood" amongst the people of Turkey is as fractured and complicated as it is in any country of the world.

Even so it is hardly a fair demand Julia, how can Barbarian give anything but his personal opinion when you yourself have given us nothing but your personal opinion, certainly not the opinion of Italy or the EU as a whole.
 
There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

Not even Greece anymore, the older generation still cling to the church but the younger generations are as disillusioned with organised religion as the rest of Europe. Churches are empty except for a handfull of the elderly and if asked, the majority of younger people would describe themselves as athiest.
 
@ Julia

Christianity is not what modern europe is based on, it is based on Greco-roman values and thought. It was called the Renaissance because europe went away from christian ways to more classic way of thinking, and it worked. Of course religion will always be around, it's the opium for the masses, but it should never again have the power it held during the middle ages.

The problem for muslims countries, and uneducated muslims, is they never had a renaissance. The Ottoman empire never went through what europe did from the 15th-19th century (barbarian I'm not trying to take a shot at you), it was basically a medieval empire from start to end. They never had a separate institution for church (mosque) and state either, which is why the two never really grew apart and only now are they are trying to modernise and are facing problems with secularism and radical groups trying to bend politic to their like.

"Christian" countries in europe arn't really christian anymore, it's more of a cultural inheratance. Some people might take christianity seriously but I would say most don't, which is why when they look at muslims countries where they do infact take it serious, europeans feel alienated to them and to muslims. There are still some very religious christian countries in europe like Poland, Romania and Greece, western europe not so much.

I think turkey might actually be going away from secularism to a more conservative, non-attaturk way of governance thanks to AKP, which is a slippery slope. Even though the Roman Empire was in North Africa and the levent, people there just don't want to look at it as an example.

You are wrong christianity shaped europe.
But as you said i'm afrad turkey might not be enough secularised; muslim values don't fit in europe
 
Common sense would tell anyone that the feeling of "brotherhood" amongst the people of Turkey is as fractured and complicated as it is in any country of the world.

Even so it is hardly a fair demand Julia, how can Barbarian give anything but his personal opinion when you yourself have given us nothing but your personal opinion, certainly not the opinion of Italy or the EU as a whole.

The opinion on italy, is that we feel brotherhood to europe, not to the muslim world, as we have never been muslim.
 
You are wrong christianity shaped europe.
But as you said i'm afrad turkey might not be enough secularised; muslim values don't fit in europe

Don't you see the contradiction in what you have written?
 
The opinion on italy, is that we feel brotherhood to europe, not to the muslim world, as we have never been muslim.

You are allowing your own religious bias to interfere in what should be a political consideration. As far as I am aware it is immaterial what religious beliefs a person holds within the EU, isn't that why a person's religious affiliation is no longer printed on ID cards?
 
EU Parliament approved the annual progress report for Turkey’s accession



As it was scheduled today the European Parliament held a vote on the progress report for Turkey’s accession process. The results of the vote approved the original report without amendments that would make Turkey’s path easier.
The report characterizes the progress of Turkey as still being at the starting point of a long-lasting process. Critical to the vote were the recent arrests of journalists in Turkey with the EU MP’s being concerned about the deterioration of freedom, and censorship of press. It was also noted that Turkey has made no progress in the last 8 months which is the longest period of inactivity since the process begun in 2005. For fifth consecutive year Turkey has failed to fulfil the Copenhagen criteria meaning that the conditions of the Turkish judiciary, have not yet improved sufficiently to ensure the right to a fair and timely trials. The EU Parliament has also requested that Turkey stops the flow of immigrants from Turkey to Northern Cyprus immediately to avoid changing the demographic character of the territory at a time when reunification talks are being made. The report also mentions the fact that Turkey has not stopped the acts of aggression towards Greece, and stresses that the Greek air space violations should stop. Furthermore, reference is made to the United Nations Convention on Law of the Sea, which is signed by the 27 EU members plus all other candidate states except Turkey, and is invited to do so immediately.


http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/0...annual-progress-report-for-turkeys-accession/
 
In my opinion it shouldn't. In fact I think it should give up some of its European, such as Istanbul and the lands West of it. Most of its land is in the Middle East and it would be better if they were to join the Middle Eastern or West Asian Union if such a union takes place. I don't even think it should be a candidate.
What do you think?
No, I don't think they should join for geographical reasons. Only 3% of Turkey is in Europe, the rest is in the middle east. It would be much harder to controll EU's external borders with Turkey as a member since the EU would then have to controll 3-4 different borders against middle eastern countries rather than just against Turkey. We should instead form a partnership and cooperate with them like we do with Russia, but they should not become a member state.
 
No way! Turkey is an undemocratic dictatorship. If it reforms, it may join, but today's Turkey is far from the European principles of free, open societies and pluralist democracies.
 
Turkey to enforce compulsory Internet filtering in August

On 22nd August in a move that many now call ‘The End of Internet’ Turkey will implement a country-wide Internet filter which will classify connections into 4 categories: child, family, domestic and standard. Users will be called to choose one of the four options but according to Internet advocates, even the least restricting option ‘Standard’ is still government mandated and government controlled.Turkey already has a track record of banning access to websites; it is believed that at least 12,000 sites are not accessible from Turkey, the list at times including some high profile sites such as YouTube. The list of blocked sites is kept secret. Recently the Turkish Telecommunications Directorate has also banned 138 words from being part of Turkish domain names (this includes words such as ”gay,” “beat,” “escort,” “homemade,” “hot,” “nubile,” “free”, “teen” and the number 31 which apparently in Turkey is slang for male masturbation (for example ‘hotmail.com.tr’ is not be accessible since it contains the word ‘hot’. Currently many internet users browse the web through proxies abroad to gain access to these banned websites but this is only a temporary solution since under the new regulations, attempts to circumvent the filters will be considered a criminal act and face heavy fines.


http://www.cyprusupdates.com/2011/05/turkey-to-enforce-compulsory-internet-filtering-in-august/

Ankara government controls the media and now the internet in turkey. It looks like they're taking tips from their new friend Iran.
 

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