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Thread: Montenegro votes for independence from Serbia

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    Arrow Montenegro votes for independence from Serbia



    BBC News : Montenegro 'chooses independence'

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    Montenegro has voted for independence from its union with Serbia, according to unofficial projections.

    If confirmed, the vote would erase the last vestige of the former Yugoslavia.
    I am in favour of the independence of Montenegro, the same way as I am for the independence of Kosovo.

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    I wonder if at least this split will come about peacefully.

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    New country for Europe

    It looks like Europe has gained yet another independant state in the Balkans as Montenegro has voted for independance from Serbia. Serbia has accepted the referendum see here for more
    Fair enough they want independance, but the next thing they'll want to do it join the EU. Leave a small union to gain their own government and then try and join a larger union, which will end up dictating on how to run your country on various matters.

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    It's different....with serbia they were not equal...pretty much never have been. They don't really have any benefits from being with Serbia as opposed to joining the EU. Serbia has abused the former yugoslav republics too much for any of them to wish and have to be under their dominion. I'm glad that montenegro will get independence and i hope kosovo shall get its soon as well. It would be a nice ending in the sad 90's chapter of Balkan history.

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    Kosovo now seems almost certain to secede from Serbia :

    The Economist : Serbia and Kosovo ; A province prepares to depart

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    I recognize this country name through my lifetime hobby of stamp collecting,it was once categorized as " dead nation " in the philatelic world for over a century.

    It's interest to read more and more formerly dead nations or territories swallowed up by powerful neigbors gradually regain their sovereignty.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ricecake View Post
    I recognize this country name through my lifetime hobby of stamp collecting,it was once categorized as " dead nation " in the philatelic world for over a century.
    It's interest to read more and more formerly dead nations or territories swallowed up by powerful neigbors gradually regain their sovereignty.
    Are you talking about about Montenegro or Kosovo ? When was either of them independent before (to print stamps) ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    Are you talking about about Montenegro or Kosovo ?

    When was either of them independent before (to print stamps) ?


    Montenegro,not Kosovo.

    I've vague memory now since many years passed I last saw postage stamps imprinted with Montenegro,were issued as either a nation or a territory.I have to look that up in next copy of subscribed weekly Linn's stamp newspaper,then I can confirm it.

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    I totally agree wit Duo's post. My country gained independance from former Yugoslavia 16 years ago and it was the best decision me coult have made. Too much money went to Belgrade with no apparent benefit. We are now EU members and on 1st January Eurozone members.

    Things are really complicated, politicaly, in Serbia. kosovo independance is pending and Serbia won't, in my opinion, let that happen. The radicals threatened armed conflict if Kosovo secedes.

    As for Montenegro, I'm sure that there will not be any conflicts. Serbs have other problems and Montenegro was never percieved as part of Serbia, wheres kosovo is a birthplace of Serbian nation.

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    Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by GorazdR View Post

    As for Montenegro, I'm sure that there will not be any conflicts. Serbs have other problems and Montenegro was never percieved as part of Serbia, wheres kosovo is a birthplace of Serbian nation.

    Says who ? Is funny like other slovenes i've talked to are quite not so enthusiastic about Kosovo being independent. THey still tell me that Kosovo was Serbian when there are enough historical facts to disprove that. It's just weird cuz slovenians started the whole break up of yugoslavia yet they dont seem so keen on this particular independence. Coherent thinking would let me to beleive that knowing what rule under Belgrade was there would be a bit more assistance or rather support for this particular issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?

    And even just as important Serbia doesn't control the territory anymore. There is not much they can do about it. Try an invasion and a fight with NATO forces?
    Just as the big powers granted Kosovo to Serbia they are taking it away again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    There is not much they can do about it. Try an invasion and a fight with NATO forces?
    Not likely.

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    It's done. Yesterday was Kosovo's turn to split from Serbia, almost 2 years after Montenegro.

    This makes of Kosovo of one the smallest European countries (3x smaller than Belgium in land area and 5x less population-wise). If Belgium splits in two, Wallonia and Flanders would still be bigger.

    Let's see now if they will merge Kosovo with Albania. That seems like the most logical thing to do, but I am not an expert on the matter.

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    Kosovo is not the smallest in Europe,Liechtenstein,Luxembourg,San Marino,Holy See,Monaco and Andorra are smaller.Kosovo is about 11000 km2 but Andorra is less than 1000.
    I trully believe that Croatia will found the way to recognize Kosovo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigSmoke View Post
    Kosovo is not the smallest in Europe,Liechtenstein,Luxembourg,San Marino,Holy See,Monaco and Andorra are smaller.Kosovo is about 11000 km2 but Andorra is less than 1000.
    I trully believe that Croatia will found the way to recognize Kosovo.
    This is why I wrote "one the smallest" which has a completely different meaning from just "smallest". Each word is worth something.

    Anyway, it is hard to see Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican or Lichtenstein as actual "countries" when they have less independence or less power than some federal states. These countries have no currency of their own, no proper army or police, and lack most ministries and institutions found in bigger countries. So they are more like semi-autonomous regions of France, Italy and Switzerland than "countries". I prefer to place them in the same category of "dependent states" as the Faroe Islands, Greenland, the Isle of Man, Jersey & Guernesey, Gibraltar, etc.

    Luxembourg is the smallest "functional" country in Europe.

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    I wonder if there are any Albanians or Kosovars here that have any information regarding this conflict.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Atzerrian View Post
    I wonder if there are any Albanians or Kosovars here that have any information regarding this conflict.

    What do you need to know? I can tell you everything.


    Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, the most ancient group of Indo Europeans that controlled the entire balkans.

    In the 7th century AD, Slavic barbarians invaded and killed off most of the Illyrians, or assimilated them, except for 1 tribe, the Albanians, who managed to survive to this day.

    Kosovo in Albanian is Dardania, which is an ancient Albanian Illyrian word. This land was always Albanian territory, until 1912 when Serbs stole it with the support of Russia, France, Germany, and England.


    Serbs also commited mass crimes and killed thousands of innocent Albanian civilians to try and "cleanse" them out of the land but it didn't work.


    As of February 2nd 2008, Kosova is the newest independent Nation in the world.


    Now we are only waiting to enter the UN, which is being blocked by Russia.

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    Kosovo or with full and official name: Kosovo and Metochia. Kosovo derived from Kosovo (polje) means Field of Black birds on Serbian. Metochia is greek word for monastery property. Every village, every hill, every river on Kosovo has serbian name. Kosovo was center of Serbian medieval state. All serbian cultural, historical monuments are located on Kosovo, and not only that, Kosovo has special place in Serbian national poems as the place of suffering and ressurection. It was simbol of european Christian resistance to Otoman Turks.
    To stole Kosovo from Serbs is like stole Canterbery from English people, Jerusalem from Jews.
    Over the centuries Albanian clans as muslims and Turk allies were settled on that holy serbian fertile land. They burned christian churches, raped christian girls, killed christian men forcefully occupying their properties and year by year, century by century they gained majority on Kosovo.
    On the end of story, only with help of Nato air force, Albanians became rulers of Kosovo, killing and deporting a few Serbs that survived. Serbian monasteries, under Unesco protection, are the only religious objects in Europe today protected day and night by Nato soldiers from wild Albanians which tried several times to burn it.
    And that is the true about Kosovo today. It is stolen teritory. Main thieves: Albanians, main colaborators: EU, Nato and United States.

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    I fear for the Balkans. I hope against hope that the people of the various "nations" can hold it together and bury old hatreds and inequalities and live peacefully next to each other. I am afraid that within a few years the old hatreds and unhealed wounds will end up in renewed violence.
    I think that the only way that will not happen if there is a very strong stance by the EU to try and keep the peace. It would be a shame for the governments of Europe to back away and rely on NATO or the UN to try and maintain order.

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Kosovo or with full and official name: Kosovo and Metochia. Kosovo derived from Kosovo (polje) means Field of Black birds on Serbian. Metochia is greek word for monastery property. Every village, every hill, every river on Kosovo has serbian name. Kosovo was center of Serbian medieval state. All serbian cultural, historical monuments are located on Kosovo, and not only that, Kosovo has special place in Serbian national poems as the place of suffering and ressurection. It was simbol of european Christian resistance to Otoman Turks.
    To stole Kosovo from Serbs is like stole Canterbery from English people, Jerusalem from Jews.
    Over the centuries Albanian clans as muslims and Turk allies were settled on that holy serbian fertile land. They burned christian churches, raped christian girls, killed christian men forcefully occupying their properties and year by year, century by century they gained majority on Kosovo.
    On the end of story, only with help of Nato air force, Albanians became rulers of Kosovo, killing and deporting a few Serbs that survived. Serbian monasteries, under Unesco protection, are the only religious objects in Europe today protected day and night by Nato soldiers from wild Albanians which tried several times to burn it.
    And that is the true about Kosovo today. It is stolen teritory. Main thieves: Albanians, main colaborators: EU, Nato and United States.
    Why you just dont Stop whith your well known serbian propaganda to present the occupier like e victim. All the world knows now that you south slavs came(invasion) in Illyrian(Balkan) peninsula from VI-VII century onwards. And changing the Illyrians, Dardanians... (Albanians) toponyms, to slavic and that does not mean that you are there before albanians.
    And one more thing: Stop using the religion to make anti-albanian propaganda, because the world knows that albanians accept christianity from the I century (before slavs) and we change our religion as many times as is necessary to disringuish from the occupant (as you know-We have a survival history).
    We have now 3 religions operating in harmony, because the "nation" concept to us, is more important than the religion.
    P.S: Stop ruining all topics here in this wonderful forum, whith your propaganda that does not drink water anymore like before. Albanians does not have propaganda in their culture but that doesn't mean that "objectivity" will stay indifferent anymore.
    Last edited by Besir Bajrami; 06-09-10 at 13:11.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Duo View Post
    It's different....with serbia they were not equal...pretty much never have been. They don't really have any benefits from being with Serbia as opposed to joining the EU. Serbia has abused the former yugoslav republics too much for any of them to wish and have to be under their dominion. I'm glad that montenegro will get independence and i hope kosovo shall get its soon as well. It would be a nice ending in the sad 90's chapter of Balkan history.
    lol, what a bunch of propaganda non-sense coming from being brain-washed for years with mainstream west media, black and white picture, about evil Serbs and good everyone else...
    ...
    I lived in Serbia...
    ...
    in fact, in so called communism (or socialism as it was called there) Serbs were most oppressed as a nation simply because they were most populous, next most oppressed were Croatians... while e.g. Slovenians were, taking into account their low numbers, much more influential than they should have been, while Albanians benefited the most from economical help of others that was given to most poor parts...

    Tito, life long ruler of comunist (or more precisely socialist) Yugoslavia was half-Croat, half-Slovenian...
    only Serbs who could advance in comunist party were the ones who were not feeling as Serbs at all, who were international comunist oriented...

    in fact, during communism most of top managers in Serbia were from Montenegro, as they did stick together and push each other...
    even Milosevic and his closest colaborators origin from Montenegro...

    and btw. that Milosevic was probably less guilty for crisis and wars in ex-Yu than leadership of some western countries, neo-nazi Croatian leadership, and NATO strategy planners who did see Milosevic as pro-Russian comunist and Serbs (being ortodox, Slavic and historically freedom striving nation) as little Russians....

    I will skip explaining how surprisingly all the tragical incidents used to punish Serbs were mostly media staged... and will use just an episode to illustrate the role of USA in starting the war in Bosnia:

    The Carrington-Cutileiro peace plan, named for its authors Lord Carrington and Portuguese ambassador Jorge Cutileiro, resulted from the EC Peace Conference held in February 1992 in an attempt to prevent Bosnia-Herzegovina sliding into war. It proposed ethnic power-sharing on all administrative levels and the devolution of central government to local ethnic communities. However, all Bosnia-Herzegovina's districts would be classified as Muslim, Serb or Croat under the plan, even where no ethnic majority was evident.
    On 18 March 1992, all three sides signed the agreement; Alija Izetbegović for the Bosniaks, Radovan Karadžić for the Serbs and Mate Boban for the Croats.
    On 28 March 1992, however, Izetbegović withdrew his signature and declared his opposition to any type of division of Bosnia, after meeting with then US ambassador to Yugoslavia, Warren Zimmermann, in Sarajevo.
    What was said and by whom remains unclear. Zimmerman denies that he told Izetbegovic that if he withdrew his signature, the United States would grant recognition to Bosnia as an independent state. What is indisputable is that Izetbegovic, that same day, withdrew his signature and renounced the agreement..[1]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_p...he_Bosnian_War

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Serbia won't have the choice but let Kosovo gain its independence. The Eu will pressure them on that issue. What could be worse for Serbia but be isolated within Europe ?
    worse would be to give away its birthplace part of the land in order to be new Bulgaria and Romania whom noone really wants in EU....

    Quote Originally Posted by YLLIRJANIngaYLLIRIA View Post
    What do you need to know? I can tell you everything.
    Albanians are descendants of the Illyrians, the most ancient group of Indo Europeans that controlled the entire balkans.
    In the 7th century AD, Slavic barbarians invaded and killed off most of the Illyrians, or assimilated them, except for 1 tribe, the Albanians, who managed to survive to this day.
    Kosovo in Albanian is Dardania, which is an ancient Albanian Illyrian word. This land was always Albanian territory, until 1912 when Serbs stole it with the support of Russia, France, Germany, and England.
    Khm, I think story you tell is just fake story you've been thought to believe in, in order to be able to fanatically hate Serbs...
    Actually, there is no proof that Albanians origin from Illyrians, though I agree that as assumption it makes some sense...
    Illyrians retreated from most of ex-Yu much before arrival of Slavs... they were not even mentioned in history for like 6-7 centuries before supposed arrival of Serbs...

    in fact, according to historian Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) Illyrians were destroyed well before his time...

    I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
    The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
    The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
    http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/...r=5&highlight=
    Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

    But how to explain that to several generations of Albanians who learned in their "schools" as basic fact how they are Illyrians and Dardanians and that evil Serbs did kill innocent Illyrians to steal their land which they have all right to claim back...

    Albanians were not really threatened by Milosevic's regime... that was staged thing...at least in the begining... it was about their request to get republic (in order to get right to separate) and their choice to play victim by refusing to participate in political system and by refusing education in which they will not learn about evil Serbs bashing poor Illyrians in 7th century (which never happened as Illyrians were not there and as Serbs settled area peacefully in abandoned lands given to them by Byzantine emperor) ...

    anyway, as a result of political decision of Albanians (which from this point of view turned out to be wise one, though the whole game they played was ultimately dishonest) two parallel worlds existed in Kosovo, two parallel school systems, political systems, medical systems, media systems,,... which is very ill situation, but Milosevic was happy as it did allow him to get 1/3 of votes in Serbian parliament just from votes from Kosovo (as Albanians ignored elections and Kosovo Serbs adored him because in previous comunism time they were heavily oppressed by Albanian community comunist leadership of autonomy area... in fact, they were so oppressed that Milosevic did manage to "buy" them by promising that no one will be allowed to physically molest them / beat them anymore... soon after he used legal means to take over political power in Kosovo and he kept power due to the decision of Albanians to boycott the system until they get republic / independence)

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    anyway, despite all obstacles there is slowly emerging truth about the people who were during the Balkan wars in western media depicted as noble heroes fighting for freedom against villain Serbs ....

    Kosovo's prime minister is the head of a "mafia-like" Albanian group responsible for smuggling weapons, drugs and human organs through eastern Europe, according to a Council of Europe inquiry report on organised crime.

    Hashim Thaçi is identified as "the boss" of a network that began operating criminal rackets in the run-up to the 1999 Kosovo war, and has held powerful sway over the country's government since.

    The report of the two-year inquiry, which cites FBI and other intelligence sources, has been obtained by the Guardian. It names Thaçi as having over the last decade exerted "violent control" over the heroin trade.

    ....

    While deploring Serb atrocities, Marty said the international community chose to ignore suspected war crimes by the KLA, "placing a premium instead on achieving some degree of short-term stability".

    He concludes that during the Kosovo war and for almost a year after, Thaçi's forces meted out revenge against Serbs, Roma and ethnic-Albanians accused of "collaborating" with the enemy.

    Thaçi and four other members of the Drenica Group are named in the report as having carried out "assassinations, detentions, beatings and interrogations". This same hardline KLA faction has held considerable power in Kosovo's government over the last decade, with the support of western powers keen to ensure stability in the fledgling state.

    The report paints a picture in which ex-KLA commanders have played a crucial role in the region's criminal activity over the last decade.

    It says: "In confidential reports spanning more than a decade, agencies dedicated to combating drug smuggling in at least five countries have named Hashim Thaçi and other members of his Drenica Group as having exerted violent control over the trade in heroin and other narcotics."

    Marty adds: "Thaçi and these other Drenica Group members are consistently named as "key players" in intelligence reports on Kosovo's mafia-like structures of organised crime. I have examined these diverse, voluminous reports with consternation and a sense of moral outrage."

    His inquiry was commissioned after the former chief prosecutor for war crimes at The Hague, Carla Del Ponte, said she had been prevented from investigating senior KLA officials.

    Her most shocking claim, which she said required further investigation, was that the KLA smuggled captive Serbs across the border into Albania, where their organs were harvested.

    The report, which states that it is not a criminal investigation and unable to pronounce judgments of guilt or innocence, gives some credence to Del Ponte's claims. It finds the KLA did hold mostly Serb captives in a secret network of six detention facilities in northern Albania.

    Thaçi's Drenica Group "bear the greatest responsibility" for the ad-hoc prisons and the fate of those held in them.

    They include a "handful" of prisoners said to have been transferred to a makeshift prison just north of Tirana, where they were killed for their kidneys.

    The report states: "As and when the transplant surgeons were confirmed to be in position and ready to operate, the captives were brought out of the 'safe house' individually, summarily executed by a KLA gunman, and their corpses transported swiftly to the operating clinic.''

    The same Kosovan and foreign individuals involved in the macabre killings are linked to the Medicus case, the report finds.
    ....

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...ike-mafia-boss

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I am in favour of the independence of Montenegro, the same way as I am for the independence of Kosovo.
    Short BBC report for proponents of Kosovo independance.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/9294175.stm

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    Quote Originally Posted by iapodos View Post
    Short BBC report for proponents of Kosovo independance.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...ht/9294175.stm
    Don't buy this nonsense iapodos.

    The Brits and Americans played a very wicked role in ex Yugoslavia.

    The American government in those days wanted to establish peace between Israel and the Palestinians. So they had contacts with the KLA to support them.
    Together with Al Qaeda agents. The KLA was also financed by countries like Saudi Arabia.
    The civil war in Yugoslavia was ignited by the German minister of foreign affairs back then. Slovenia got weapons for their police force smuggled in from Austria. And so Slovenia went for independence.

    That triggered a series of other bombs to explode.

    Organized looting of human body parts?
    Bullshit.
    Too complicated to shoot them, and then sort them out.

    It would be more like the Americans do..
    Put them in jail or camps..
    Do tests on them..
    Execute them when organs are needed.

    I guess the Chinese do it that way too.

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