Politics Montenegro votes for independence from Serbia

[LeBrok]

Exactly right iapetoc. Rastko is for the liberties, choices and democracy for all people on this planet,.....but it has to stop if he doesn't like the outcome. Please Rastko, think before you post, because you contradict yourself in your posts, or your position is so off the wall, that I don't know where to start. Try to be more like Homo Cogitans.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Exactly right iapetoc. Rastko is for the liberties, choices and democracy for all people on this planet,.....but it has to stop if he doesn't like the outcome. Please Rastko, think before you post, because you contradict yourself in your posts, or your position is so off the wall, that I don't know where to start. Try to be more like Homo Cogitans.

Your post shows that you have no idea about the issue of Kosovo. According to the United Nations Development Programme survey published in March 2007 only 2.5% Albanians in Kosovo thought that unification is the best solution. 96% said they want Kosovo to become independent within its present borders.

Unification with Albania is abolition of rights of the minorities - Serbs, Bosniaks, Roma, Gorani etc. Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.

By the way, Josip Broz Tito was not great by any means, but he was most certainly the best leader who ever ruled in this region. It held a world record for most of heads of states, ministers and presidents of legislative bodies in history until April 8, 2005 when the Pope's funeral broke it. Still, it was more visited then the funerals of JFK or Churchill. That tells enough about how world leaders of all nations - from USA to Soviet Union, from United Kingdom to China, respected Tito.

 

[how yes no 2]

Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.

khm, Kosovo is not really independent...
If it was independent, than its majority citizens of today would be able to join their native country - Albania... However, in 90s term Kosovars was invented to hide the fact that Albanians already have national state (Albania) and that expanding that state on account of its neighbour state (Serbia) cannot be seen as politically, morally or legally correct. It is as correct as if New Mexico is by Russians given to Mexico, Florida to Cuba, or if Marseille is by new superpower China given to one of Arab countries, or if south Italy or north Greece is given to Albania, or if part of Germany is given to Turkey....
It is not comparable to prospect that e.g. Kurdistan could become independent country, because Kurds despite extremely large area in which they are majority for long time, do not have national state...

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

khm, Kosovo is not really independent...
If it was independent, than its majority citizens of today would be able to join their native country - Albania... However, in 90s term Kosovars was invented to hide the fact that Albanians already have national state (Albania) and that expanding that state on account of its neighbour state (Serbia) cannot be seen as politically, morally or legally correct. It is as correct as if New Mexico is by Russians given to Mexico, Florida to Cuba, or if Marseille is by new superpower China given to one of Arab countries, or if south Italy or north Greece is given to Albania, or if part of Germany is given to Turkey....
It is not comparable to prospect that e.g. Kurdistan could become independent country, because Kurds despite extremely large area in which they are majority for long time, do not have national state...

National state is the 19th century concept which is DEAD. All modern countries are multicultural and multiethnic progressive democracies based on the principles of freedom and human rights. Kurdistan shall be independent, as well.

The genocidal operation "Potkovica", the massacres in Suva Reka, Račak, Podujevo, Velika Kruša, Izbica, Drenica, Gornje Obrinje, Ćuška, Bela Crkva, Orahovac and in Dubrava prison, violated the rights of the majority population on self-determination and consequently they led to North Atlantic Treaty Organization's humanitarian intervention and finally the independence of Kosovo.

 

[LeBrok]

You are missing the point. In your democratic and liberal priorities let citizens of Kosovo choose what they want. Don't tell them what they can or can't, especially basing your judgment on your political agenda or feelings. Shouldn't you let people to decide what to do? Make your mind dude.

 

[iapetoc]

Your post shows that you have no idea about the issue of Kosovo. According to the United Nations Development Programme survey published in March 2007 only 2.5% Albanians in Kosovo thought that unification is the best solution. 96% said they want Kosovo to become independent within its present borders.

Unification with Albania is abolition of rights of the minorities - Serbs, Bosniaks, Roma, Gorani etc. Human rights are above all and Kosovo must stay independent and sovereign within its present borders. Everything else is irredentism and threat to stability, democracy and human rights in the region.

By the way, Josip Broz Tito was not great by any means, but he was most certainly the best leader who ever ruled in this region. It held a world record for most of heads of states, ministers and presidents of legislative bodies in history until April 8, 2005 when the Pope's funeral broke it. Still, it was more visited then the funerals of JFK or Churchill. That tells enough about how world leaders of all nations - from USA to Soviet Union, from United Kingdom to China, respected Tito.

so you are not supporting unificatio in order of minorities,
But you support a country like Fyrom which already has much more minorities, to make more, to be a country of 4 primary nations, languages and religions,
Really your point of view is not the best,
Fyrom is a mood for fight, and boarder change,
the UN solutions for kossovo are just to achieve peace, and are not the best for any part,
in time Kossovo people will decide,
the no change boarder in bosnia and kossovo for me it is mistaken,
but you agree to change boarders Greece and Bulgaria, just to create a country of 4 primary nations, 4 primary languages who knows how many other minorities or cultures like tsiggani roma gorani pomaks etc,
what stability in the region offers Fyrom?

Tito was smart, he took advantage of Cold war and went to 3rd world, that ment profits for him and his party, in ex Yugoslavia secret meeting of both happened,
we all know that the best CIA and KGB agents were in Beligradi,
But Tito solutions F..k up the whole Balkans,
1 Bosnia
2 Croatia (kraina I think)
3 kossovo
4 fyrom

the Yugoslavia was an artificial country, to serve both Ussr and Usa,
Tito named Macedonia an Area that was never Makedonia, and Forgot Dusan's capital Skopje that was Serbia, why?
Besides in many articles I read that he de-industrialize Serbia which was the bigger industry before WW2 in Balkans

while you lived in a block Tito had lion's in his garden in a island in Dalmatia.

the хвала Tito days are over, face truth
People can think and judge, and search and speak
we don't need communist party propaganda to tell us, whom and who to applause, and when

how many wars in Balkans, and still there is open the case for 1 more the Fyrom-Greece

Tito was a Criminal against Humanity,
he accepted Tens of Thousands of Greek children from north Greece and never return them back
Are you supporting that
are you supporting to take kids from their mothers change their names and never turn them back?
in order to create an artificial nation? or to expand communism.

face truth, the man was the most discusting Leader the late years, worse than Ottomans that had Yenicars


the case of kossovo Bosnia Fyrom is one,
Nations are bounded by blood, culture, language, common memories and not by Geographical terms or a peace treaty.the no change boarders is a temporary solution, and not a terminal,
the multicultural of now days, we are not certain if will be in future,the multicultural of EU can brake Eu back to the begging,
the case of Belgium, Spain (Basques Catalania etc) the late in Scotland (parliament etc) proves us that multicultural Europe is not a reality, and can go back to unification movements of 1700-1800
EU is still a money Union,

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

You are missing the point. In your democratic and liberal priorities let citizens of Kosovo choose what they want. Don't tell them what they can or can't, especially basing your judgment on your political agenda or feelings. Shouldn't you let people to decide what to do? Make your mind dude.

This is exactly why I was against minaret referendum in Switzerland - you cannot put human rights on the referendum. If Kosovo unites with Albania human rights of minorities are abolished. Therefore, there are certain issues about which majority cannot decide. Those issues are sensistive and related to basic individual freedoms.

 

[how yes no 2]

National state is the 19th century concept which is DEAD. All modern countries are multicultural and multiethnic progressive democracies based on the principles of freedom and human rights. Kurdistan shall be independent, as well.

perhaps your liberal ideology makes your views fuzzy and unrealistic, but world is and always was governed by force of stronger...

I do not think Kurdistan will be independent any time soon...
Turkey is important part of NATO and in case of NATO-Russia war will have to do largest sacrifice... therefore, it is given right to keep its part of Kurdistan as long as it wants it...

The genocidal operation "Potkovica", the massacres in Suva Reka, Račak, Podujevo, Velika Kruša, Izbica, Drenica, Gornje Obrinje, Ćuška, Bela Crkva, Orahovac and in Dubrava prison, violated the rights of the majority population on self-determination and consequently they led to North Atlantic Treaty Organization's humanitarian intervention and finally the independence of Kosovo.

well, I know that ideologists of neoliberal attitudes from Serbia, are very ready to repeat names of those supposed events to spit on own nation...but although, as in most wars, some grouse war crimes did happen, most of the mentioned events are simply invented as documented in this documentary of German TV...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_scokGJga8c

essentially, wars from 90s were just indirect NATO-Russia war...Milosevic was pro-Russian element and the leaders of the nations who were in war with him were pro-NATO elements...

 

[Elias2]

Turkey is important part of NATO and in case of NATO-Russia war will have to do largest sacrifice... therefore, it is given right to keep its part of Kurdistan as long as it wants it...

Why do people think Russia is still the USSR?

 

[how yes no 2]

Why do people think Russia is still the USSR?

it is not, but strategic games are not changed over night...

USA won cold war by pulling down iron curtain...
as a result of this it has spread its influence via NATO far into east Europe...
that makes Russia nervous as it needs to be sure to preserve vast natural resources in Siberia for its future generations...

also, by Russia being more and more economical partner of EU, USA strategy makers can see it as treat that may help west Europe to break free from its dependency from USA in military sense....

so, Russia stays natural enemy of USA... and other way around..it is natural rivalry of the two big powers and large countries... that is quite normal...hopefully, this rivalry will be more and more replaced by partnership for better world...but it is quite possible that in parallel with that ongoing process the two will occasionally keep playing their strategic games through wars between smaller nations...

most important for future of the world is to avoid global direct confrontation between USA and Russia, as that would likely be the end of the world as we know it... at least in northern hemisphere...

 

[Antigone]

I think the US is living in the past and therefore making another big mistake. Russia is no longer the enemy they seem to think it is, it will be China.

 

[iapetoc]

This is exactly why I was against minaret referendum in Switzerland - you cannot put human rights on the referendum. If Kosovo unites with Albania human rights of minorities are abolished. Therefore, there are certain issues about which majority cannot decide. Those issues are sensistive and related to basic individual freedoms.

what about the basic majority to speak your mother's language, and return Home?

did Tito and Fyrom gave that right to the kidnaped children?

what about the right to claim your ID and not accept a fake ID that is given to you by a paper, since you are supporting Fyromians and their constitution about liberation of Other nation by their own people,

seems like you don't care about Human rights but only to make troubles,

it is a Human right to be son of someone, and not accept any name or ID is given to you by a treaty or a paper,

why you don't respect the Human rights of Makedonians?

possibly you are another politician like many in Balkans (including Greeks) that takes orders from somewhere else.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

what about the basic majority to speak your mother's language, and return Home?

did Tito and Fyrom gave that right to the kidnaped children?

what about the right to claim your ID and not accept a fake ID that is given to you by a paper, since you are supporting Fyromians and their constitution about liberation of Other nation by their own people,

seems like you don't care about Human rights but only to make troubles,

it is a Human right to be son of someone, and not accept any name or ID is given to you by a treaty or a paper,

why you don't respect the Human rights of Makedonians?

possibly you are another politician like many in Balkans (including Greeks) that takes orders from somewhere else.

You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.

 

[Elias2]

You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened.

Are you saying there isn't proof children were taken across the iron curtain by communists to be brainwashed into thinking they are someone else?

 

[Elias2]

it is not, but strategic games are not changed over night...

USA won cold war by pulling down iron curtain...
as a result of this it has spread its influence via NATO far into east Europe...
that makes Russia nervous as it needs to be sure to preserve vast natural resources in Siberia for its future generations...

also, by Russia being more and more economical partner of EU, USA strategy makers can see it as treat that may help west Europe to break free from its dependency from USA in military sense....

so, Russia stays natural enemy of USA... and other way around..it is natural rivalry of the two big powers and large countries... that is quite normal...hopefully, this rivalry will be more and more replaced by partnership for better world...but it is quite possible that in parallel with that ongoing process the two will occasionally keep playing their strategic games through wars between smaller nations...

most important for future of the world is to avoid global direct confrontation between USA and Russia, as that would likely be the end of the world as we know it... at least in northern hemisphere...

I understand your logic but why would Russia go to war with NATO?, at least the european NATO members? if EU wants russia's partnership so it can be less dependent on USA, russia would be happy with this new relationship because it favors russia over America. I think NATO is a debunked organization nowadays anyways, they can't even agree when it came to Lybia what to do, and to much politics came in the way. I don't think EU should be worried about a eurasion invasion, only USA is worried beacuse they want the oil from central asia but the countries seem to favor Russia over them, so they pretend like Russia is still an enemy, and try to make it look like this is the case but it isn't. Like Antigone said they should be looking at China.

 

[iapetoc]

You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.

are you sure?

 

[iapetoc]

You have not a single objective proof that such a thing ever happened. If those children want to go back to Greece, who can prohibit them from doing that? Everyone has the right of free movement, today, if they have a proof they are Greek they can acquire citizenship.

are you sure?

read my post #141 at

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24964-The-case-of-Macedonia/page6

there you find not only proves but documents from ex Yugoslavian tv or cinema of the time,in serbian language,

Communist even change their names,

from a friends of my fathers, he found his brother and his 2 sisters while they all still miss 1 sister somewhere in ex communist countries,
2 of them lived in Skopje and 1 romania, one is still missing from red cross, the younger, kidnaped at age of 3,


I even have UN desisions and numbers you .... tito worshiper,

Fyromians and Tito destabilize the Balkans and create crimes against Humanity,

3 march 1948 Beograd communist party of youth,
Document in written results of congress
decision on how they handle the Greek kids

2nd congress in Sofia

3 March 1948 newspaper of Democratic (communist) Army mention that the operation is about 150 000 kids from Greek Makedonia and Thrace to transport to Yugoslavia

thank god not that many kidnaped

April 1948 first actions or return by UNSCOB A/AC 16/251
no answer by Tito


commander θανασης Μητσοπουλος thanashs mitsopoulos, Communist army,
in charge,
sent 12 000 kids in yugoslavia
bulgaria 2000
east Germany 1000
Hungary 1000
poland 3500
romania 5664
Ussr 1000
Chech-slovakia 3500

all where examned by Petros kokkalis doctor,

documents are many
only about 600 manage to return, the bigger ones age >15
the rest learn the truth after 1975, 27 years living with a fake ID

the Greek boys at 1 December 1948
at charita katholica Βαρι Chechoslovakia
secret photo given by red cross to Greek embasy,

the report of
Ligue des Societes de la Croix Rouge 1948

27 November 1948 UN decision, of return,
only romania and chechoslovakia accept red cross mans
TITO AS ..... HE WAS HE DID NOT PERMIT RED CROSS TO SEARCH OR TO CONTACT WITH KIDS,

1948 a photo of Greek kids in communist countries, given by fraince Red cross to mothers in Greece

12 august 1949
VERN Helvetia red cross gathers the demands of parents,
Even 15 muslim kid where kidnaped,

Pope of rome letter to USA foreign minister,

29 december since Tito say no
NATIONAL DAY OF DEATH,
29 december 12 000 mothers received a NO from tito and is consider the burial of the missing children,
All >26 000 children passed though Yugoslavia, accordirg communist doctor Kokkalis
the video in the post i mention

writers about that

Lars Baerentzen
Ole L Smith
Annete Bak Malle
Ida Enemark

Milan Ristovic A long Journey home,
Greek refugee children in Yugoslavia 1948-1960


all UN desissions sources, documents sources, and congress results are here,

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...nPSHdD&sig=AHIEtbRLW2PY_zyF6aFHitVOW6CyL4jBjA


Weber Laurence (Geneve 2007)
all the documents of CICR

as you I have evidence,
Tito and Yugoslavia until 1960 did permit Red Cross even to find under conditions they lived,
the first attempt was made 12 years later of kidnaping 1960
the family names to most BUT NOT ALL were given at 1975, so people could search for relatives,

only Tito and Stalin did not permit Red cross to find Children

3 years old Children Hidden in Skopje learn who were they at age of 30

UN nation decisions, and Pope's personal interest is not for Bullshit,

Due to respect to forum I will not characterize you.

the proves are in papers, UN decisions, and even in Videos in the post I mention,

#141 at

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?24964-The-case-of-Macedonia/page6

one video is document from either cinema news or tv but is a document in a very well know language,
guess,


thank you today some of them live in greece,
If they spend all their life in Skopje and Yugoslavia, will they return at the age of 40-50
after spending 30-40 years in Yugoslavia, to a mother who probably is dead or they never knew,

remember only Tito and Stalin send away red cross

I even can give you names,


Josip Broz Tito
Јосип Броз Тито
THE HEROD OF THE BALKANS
one of the titles he deserves

tell me what language and what mark is that in videos, min 1:30 (speaker not kids)


How to return to Greece, when Tito made them slavic-fake Makedonians?
and lived 40 years with the Idea that they are the real Makedonians, and Alexander was Slavic
the creation of slavic Makedonian state, made by Tito and Communists, victims Greek children,
ottomans style,

These Kids spoke and Sing Greek in 1rst Video, why they Speak Slavic as Adults???

proves of what a ... was Tito and Fyromians are

only Turks did that to Greeks,
Not even German Nazi,
Tito and Stalin

Objectives proves are given, more than 1

Hitler and Marco Vafeiades side by side??????? !!!!!!!

What About the fortune and properties of Greeks of Strumnitsa Perlepe Monasterion,
what happened to them,
where are the 40 000 greeks of monasterion?

Tito who expected Albania to be 9 democracy of yugoslavia, and Greece 10.
simply make proud Serbians of WW1 to be the bad quys of the balkans.
made proud partisans, fighters against NAZI, to reconsider if they act correct.
After 12 years left Red cross to visit children

 

[Reinaert]

iapetoc, you seem to be a crusader for your own cause. Blaming Tito, while the western nations on the right wing did exactly the same.

Please read this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Civil_War

What the hell were the English doing in Greece anyway?
They got the right wing in power, with all the problems later on.
Be aware who to blame for the misfortune of Greece.
Blame the English!

And of course, anyone who wants to go back to Greece can do so, if they want.

 

[Rastko Pocesta]

Exactly. There was a civil war and many people fled to SFRY. Children were most likely rescued from the bloodbath happening there.

 

[Elias2]

Exactly. There was a civil war and many people fled to SFRY. Children were most likely rescued from the bloodbath happening there.

Most likely? we know why they were taken, you just can't seem to want to comprehend this.