Politics Catalonia may become an independent nation soon...

Serve as a button. In this photograph of a town in Catalonia can be seen that in a balcony there hung a banner of Republican Spain, there is not a single flag in the rest of balcony, what does a flag on a balcony if there are many more balconies no flag?

PD: Myself photo.



10352382_10152192434623547_8867191710065543556_n.jpg
Perhaps this building is occupy by emigrants?
 
Perhaps this building is occupy by emigrants?


Immigrants do not hang from balconies Spanish Republican flags. I imagine it will be a native who has uploaded a republican flag.
 
Most of my friends are in favor of independence, yet just a few of us have a flag in the blacony (and mine is just a normal Senyera).

Carlos desperately tries to fool himself counting flags. Don't ask him to count real votes, he may suffer from a heart attack.
 
Hello, how are you and how is everything? know that I wish you all the best for the future. A strong fraternal embrace.
 
What a shame, a waste of a beautiful nation (Spain), only for it to be sub-divided into little segments/provinces.

Don't worry; I am sure there will be some unity in the Iberian peninsula, whether or not Catalonia (or even the Basque country) gets independence. It won't happen anytime soon, obviously. But the reason for this is mainly that the Spanish culture and the Spanish name (Spain) are losing it's hold. Catalans are an Aragonese people, related to Southern French Occitans. At the time Catalonia was colonized by Spain, it had it's own language and culture but very few people. (less than 1 million) but now it has 7.5 million people.


It has already been hypothesized that Portugal may eventually become annexed and immersed into Spain. Inferior cultures will always die out, and stronger, healthier cultures will prevail and take their place. It's just the rule of the game.


Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection. I am afraid I may have to be biased here; and say that Spain has never really been that much of a country with a strong, healthy culture, or sense of unity. Compared to France or the UK; Spain has never been an all-together country, and it does seem like it is losing it's glue.
 
It has already been hypothesized that Portugal may eventually become annexed and immersed into Spain. Inferior cultures will always die out, and stronger, healthier cultures will prevail and take their place. It's just the rule of the game.
Watch out how you verse your thoughts, or you might have a war on your hand on Eupedia. It is not about culture per se but about technological superiority. Better guns, faster horses, more ammo, better trained soldiers. Otherwise you need to explain which religion, food, music, fashion, language are better. All the aspects of culture.


Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection.
Not necessarily, though often true. There was no one technologically and culturally more sophisticated than Roman empire, and yet it collapsed. Mostly due to climatic cooling, failed crops, pagues, lower population and strong migratory movements of barbaric tribes (who couldn't even read). Followed by Dark Ages. No "superior" culture won with Rome and took its place.
 
Watch out how you verse your thoughts, or you might have a war on your hand on Eupedia. It is not about culture per se but about technological superiority. Better guns, faster horses, more ammo, better trained soldiers. Otherwise you need to explain which religion, food, music, fashion, language are better. All the aspects of culture.


Not necessarily, though often true. There was no one technologically and culturally more sophisticated than Roman empire, and yet it collapsed. Mostly due to climatic cooling, failed crops, pagues, lower population and strong migratory movements of barbaric tribes (who couldn't even read). Followed by Dark Ages. No "superior" culture won with Rome and took its place.
Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

There is another alternative that Portugal could even take over Spain. But it seems right now, that this is much less likely. If I recall correctly, there was a time when Portugal was actually once unified under Spain; in the 16th or 17th century; but this did not last long and the Portuguese managed to get independence again. Very little known fact.

The Byzantine Empire was a really big and strong successful Empire; but it collapsed under the influence of invading Ottomans who were just too strong for Greco-Roman Emperors to fight off.

Personally, I've always believed Spain has had one of the most brutal and controversial histories, in it's creation. This is where it's nationalism comes at a fault. I feel that it is a controversial nation that expects every culture in Iberia to conform to the Spanish culture; while it also has had poor respect for it's autonomous communities and distinct cultures that encompass it. Many Spaniards like Catalans, Basques and even Galicians feel resentment towards Spain. And it is because they feel that they are not represented fairly; economically and culturally, while strictly expecting to be Spanish. A much similar nation in analogy would be the former Yugoslavia. If Spain can manage to treat it's citizens more fairly, then maybe there would not be so much internal tensions; as we saw in Yugoslavia.

Personally I believe that Spain's future does not look good at all, and it will take a lot of effort for Madrid to restore it to a healthy, unified, prosperous nation.
 
Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

.
Not mentioning that France and Italy had nothing to do with Rome collapse and showed up on map of Europe hundreds years later. In this case you can argue that USA took place of Rome as a leader of the world. Still has nothing to do with your conclusion:
Empires and cultures always die only to be taken by better or stronger ones. It's like natural selection
 
Actually, there were superior nations that took the place of Rome. You have to argue that France and Italy seem to be the strongest of them.

There is another alternative that Portugal could even take over Spain. But it seems right now, that this is much less likely. If I recall correctly, there was a time when Portugal was actually once unified under Spain; in the 16th or 17th century; but this did not last long and the Portuguese managed to get independence again. Very little known fact.

The Byzantine Empire was a really big and strong successful Empire; but it collapsed under the influence of invading Ottomans who were just too strong for Greco-Roman Emperors to fight off.

Personally, I've always believed Spain has had one of the most brutal and controversial histories, in it's creation. This is where it's nationalism comes at a fault. I feel that it is a controversial nation that expects every culture in Iberia to conform to the Spanish culture; while it also has had poor respect for it's autonomous communities and distinct cultures that encompass it. Many Spaniards like Catalans, Basques and even Galicians feel resentment towards Spain. And it is because they feel that they are not represented fairly; economically and culturally, while strictly expecting to be Spanish. A much similar nation in analogy would be the former Yugoslavia. If Spain can manage to treat it's citizens more fairly, then maybe there would not be so much internal tensions; as we saw in Yugoslavia.

Personally I believe that Spain's future does not look good at all, and it will take a lot of effort for Madrid to restore it to a healthy, unified, prosperous nation.




I have to agree with your observation that stronger cultures absorb the weaker ones. But the process of assimilation is very long if it happens naturally. Look at Rome! Italic peninsula had over 10 different ethnic groups at the time of Rome. They are all gone now. Had Rome lasted for another 300 years all Balkans would have been proud Latins now. So the element of time is very important.
That's the law of nature and nothing can stop it.
Look at English culture now! No matter how proud a German or a French is they have to learn English to function in the world. If this process continuous for a thousand years they will all speak English.
I thought that Iberic peninsula was an place of tranquility. Obviously I was wrong!
 
Not mentioning that France and Italy had nothing to do with Rome collapse and showed up on map of Europe hundreds years later. In this case you can argue that USA took place of Rome as a leader of the world. Still has nothing to do with your conclusion:

Rome had a plague in the 5th century.
In dominant cultures population size is crucial.
Hellenes had the most developed culture of the antiquity but they never rose to dominance!
They lacked the manpower.
Anglo-Sakson culture will also die if the population numbers go down.
Nothing lives for ever in this world.
 
Just a few remarks:

- It is incorrect to say that Catalans are an Aragonese people. What was called "The Crown Of Aragón" included different entities, for instance, the Kingdom of Aragón and the Principate of Catalonia among others. All those territories were in fact independent states with different laws, and in the case of Catalonia and Aragón, there was not even a common language: Aragonese is still a language today (almost extinct, though), while Catalan, of course, is Catalan. One can say that the Crown of Aragón was some sort of confederation of states with a common King, with the peculiarity that the royalty in question could not affect the regional laws.

- Linked to the former point, "Spain" never colonized Catalonia, but Castille. Spain as a national concept exists only since 1812. The whole Crown of Aragón and Castille became united as a single Crown (not to be confused with kingdom) when Isabel and Fernando got married. This marriage did not implicate uniformity at first, this only came with Felipe V (French origin, by the way), whose ideal was, of course, absolutism. Catalans supported the Habsburg Dinasty hoping to preserve their privileges, which were in serious danger considering what the French government model was at that time. The rest is a well known fact: Catalans were brave but it wasn't enough to defeat the Bourbonic army.
 
Hello Knovas! how are you?, I hope well, I could not get before, work too much, but I've tended in thinking all this time, I hope you do everything right especially on labor issues, because our country is going through a tough time and it is when we have to struggle. Greetings and a very big hug.


In a kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Spain will not fall into provocations few weak able to dominate the electorate like sheep. Spain is one of the largest nations that has given mankind a nation that has changed the course of humanity. They have some years been a bit silly for having distracted, regionalist nationalism from democracy have inhibited symbols and even the language, Zapatero spent his entire government saying in this country, to say "in Spain" yes indeed regionalist nationalism had a plan if one day the system privileges just for their benefit and to the detriment of themselves, but this vile skirmish has made us wake up and can now recover without symbols and language that relate to retrograde ideologies.

!VIVA ESPAÑA!

España es mucha España.
 
Just a few remarks:

- It is incorrect to say that Catalans are an Aragonese people. What was called "The Crown Of Aragón" included different entities, for instance, the Kingdom of Aragón and the Principate of Catalonia among others. All those territories were in fact independent states with different laws, and in the case of Catalonia and Aragón, there was not even a common language: Aragonese is still a language today (almost extinct, though), while Catalan, of course, is Catalan. One can say that the Crown of Aragón was some sort of confederation of states with a common King, with the peculiarity that the royalty in question could not affect the regional laws.

- Linked to the former point, "Spain" never colonized Catalonia, but Castille. Spain as a national concept exists only since 1812. The whole Crown of Aragón and Castille became united as a single Crown (not to be confused with kingdom) when Isabel and Fernando got married. This marriage did not implicate uniformity at first, this only came with Felipe V (French origin, by the way), whose ideal was, of course, absolutism. Catalans supported the Habsburg Dinasty hoping to preserve their privileges, which were in serious danger considering what the French government model was at that time. The rest is a well known fact: Catalans were brave but it wasn't enough to defeat the Bourbonic army.
I've known this before. Although I still believe that Aragonese and Catalonians are the same people.

The Aragonese of Aragon are not the real Aragonese though. And neither is the language. (it is actually a dialect of Aragonese that was mixed with Mozarabic, it was taken by Moors and Sephardic Jews who were expelled into the region by the Castillian aristocracy) the real Aragonese language is extinct; and/or was more related to Catalan. If you observe the "Aragonese language" it is basically a language related more to Spanish and Portuguese, than to Catalonian, Gascon or Occitan. And it actually has tiny fragments of Arabic words in it. It is a mongrelized (mixed) dialect and is not the real Aragonese language. It is basically a dialect of Castillian (Spanish) mixed with Arabic; the only reason it is called "Aragonese" is because its speakers inhabit the region of Aragon. Research this for yourself.

The only two other languages that are related to Catalan are Occitan and the nearly-extinct Gascon. The Catalonian people are the real Aragonese. (I actually read somewhere that the origin of the name "Catalonia" was a misnomer, and has a Germanic/Latin origin. Unfortunately, I don't know if this is true. But the etymology of Catalan and Catalonia is unknown.)
 
You know, here is something some people here may want to consider: I was actually having a chat with a man from Madrid about two days ago; and he was indifferent to Catalonia splitting from Spain. He admitted to me that he thinks they should have a polling referendum and be allowed to decide. He said he has Catalan friends; and even if Catalonia were to split, he would still keep in touch with them and visit them regardless of differing nationalities.

Wonder if this represents the majority of Spaniards. Maybe it is their government that is harsh. He was from Madrid but admitted that Spain had a bad economy; and told me that he did not like the Spanish government.
 
Privileges, decades, centuries of finished and what privileges the privileged regions have shown? have nothing for nothing, they are not even capable of having an airline, corruption butt, no, no, no, no way, all that is over.

Already many Spanish scholars and historians from around the world have begun to speak and pulling them by the ears regionalist nationalism to manipulate history. This manipulation of history and tired and does not fool anyone in the world, only deceive themselves. You can not pretend to be or to have been what is not nor has been.


Pd: Knvs regards I love you.

I understand that the regionalist nationalism is making a ridiculous spectacle and is a disgrace and an international scandal image and they are giving all the corruption they have, without the amorality of attacking their own country.


But do not worry everything is under control. A few regionalist political fools, madmen and surrealistic not get away with Spain.
 
@ Melancon

The modern aragonese language depending on the region is more similar to Catalan or Castilian. But it is still considered a different language. You can translate this yourself: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_aragonés

At the end of the day, all latin languages are dialects, so it is normal to find transitional elements between some languages, which doesn't necessarily mean they should be grouped.

Of course it is called Aragonese because it is there where it is found. The word Aragón comes from Basque/Euskera, so obviously a latin language doesn't match with this.

And I don't think it is correct to say that the original people of Aragón were Catalans, nor the other way around. The original people in both territories were non indoeuropean speakers who were influenced by Romans (and previously by Celts who failed to impose their language), and at some point, the latin language started to change (the same as in other parts of Iberia and Europe). That's what really makes sense as we have many examples of it.

What is true is the real mistery concerning the origin of the word "Catalonia". Probably you read something about Otger Cataló.

Finally, I know not all the people in Madrid is like Carlos. But still there's too much people like him, and specially the politicians. So it is better for us to keep going on with the process.
 
@ Melancon

The modern aragonese language depending on the region is more similar to Catalan or Castilian. But it is still considered a different language. You can translate this yourself: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idioma_aragonés

At the end of the day, all latin languages are dialects, so it is normal to find transitional elements between some languages, which doesn't necessarily mean they should be grouped.

Of course it is called Aragonese because it is there where it is found. The word Aragón comes from Basque/Euskera, so obviously a latin language doesn't match with this.

And I don't think it is correct to say that the original people of Aragón were Catalans, nor the other way around. The original people in both territories were non indoeuropean speakers who were influenced by Romans (and previously by Celts who failed to impose their language), and at some point, the latin language started to change (the same as in other parts of Iberia and Europe). That's what really makes sense as we have many examples of it.

What is true is the real mistery concerning the origin of the word "Catalonia". Probably you read something about Otger Cataló.

Finally, I know not all the people in Madrid is like Carlos. But still there's too much people like him, and specially the politicians. So it is better for us to keep going on with the process.

Hi,

I meant to point you in the direction of this ("Aragonese") language:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Navarro-Aragonese

It is apparent that it went extinct by the 16th century. This one was the "original".

The modern "Aragonese" language that exists today in Aragon; actually seems to derive itself from Castillian and a mix of Moorish Arabic. From what I have read. Not anything related to the original (now extinct) Aragonese (Navarro-Aragonese), Gascon, Catalonian, Occitan language family.
 
Hello Knovas! how are you?, I hope well, I could not get before, work too much, but I've tended in thinking all this time, I hope you do everything right especially on labor issues, because our country is going through a tough time and it is when we have to struggle. Greetings and a very big hug.


In a kingdom of the blind the one eyed man is king. Spain will not fall into provocations few weak able to dominate the electorate like sheep. Spain is one of the largest nations that has given mankind a nation that has changed the course of humanity. They have some years been a bit silly for having distracted, regionalist nationalism from democracy have inhibited symbols and even the language, Zapatero spent his entire government saying in this country, to say "in Spain" yes indeed regionalist nationalism had a plan if one day the system privileges just for their benefit and to the detriment of themselves, but this vile skirmish has made us wake up and can now recover without symbols and language that relate to retrograde ideologies.

!VIVA ESPAÑA!

España es mucha España.

Clearly the issue is with the castilian cortes in not being subservient to their king Fernando.
You know the castilian queen isabella died over a decade before the catalonian king Fernando died.
The Castilian cortes did not obey the king, they even tried to prevent his marriage to a navaresse princess.

If the castilian cortes did the correct procedure as with other courts in Europe, then the capital would have been Barcelona and the language of Spain should have be catalonian . But this is not the case, as the castilian did not want to play the game, so too now, the catalonians do not want to play the game. This is fair , don't you agree?

best is a seperation , the castilian must realise they cannot have everything they want both past and present
 
To start Fernando was not Catalan. Please do not manipulate the history that is very ugly. And moreover Queen Isabella of Castile Catalan peasantry freed exclavitud to which they were subjected by the Catalan nobility. The Castelana expasión, the mentality is not comparable to the small Catalan fact the Castilian factor acquires dimensions that can not be compared Catalan factor. I think you have no perception of reality. The current problems are due solely to a claim by regionalist nationalism sector in perpetuating the system of privileges to another segment of their region regionalist nationalism lives in fantasy and believe they are a great European nation to the level of Germany, Italy or even Spain itself could say they are paranoid. Yes, have implemented a social engineering with their constituents and do what they want with them, but Spain is no longer afraid, for democracy achieved the regionalist nationalism inhibit our symbols, including language, but now we're recovering from this subrealismo and recuperandon our symbols, we are regaining freedom, remember what the origins of the ridiculous import regionalist nationalist doctrine established in these two Spanish regions within their means in the end is madness are.
 
Enkvist: "Catalonia is an example of how education can be used for evil purposes: the nationalist indoctrination"

While receiving twentieth Tolerance Award, the Spanish scholar, essayist and educator Swedish appeals to "recover the value of truth" versus "manipulation" of nationalism. Enkvist charge against nationalism for trying to "condition thought" and "jeopardize the proper functioning of democracy."

The Spanish scholar, essayist and educator Swedish Inger Enkvist denounced Friday that "Catalonia is an example of how education can be used for evil purposes, for indoctrination" nationalist.


This has positioned during reception twentieth Tolerance Award, awarded by the Association for Tolerance, which was held in a downtown hotel in Barcelona.


Appeal to "recover the value of truth"


Enkvist has appealed to teachers, journalists and politicians to "recover the value of truth" as a way to combat the "manipulation" being made by Catalan nationalism in areas such as humanities, language, literature and history.


The educator said that this type of "lies", which also occur in other countries, is a kind of "intellectual and moral corruption." It has taken a few words of writer George Orwell to criticize nationalism for trying to "contaminate mental processes, ie condition thought", which "threatens the proper functioning of democracy."


Review the mandatory immersion in Catalan


In the ceremony of prize-where he recalled the allegation Enkvist in the regional parliament of Catalonia during the drafting of the Law on Education of Catalonia (LEC) - have also intervened Professor in Spanish language and literature Carmen Leal; Professor of English Mercè Vilarrubias; writer and philologist Pericay Xavier; and President of the Association for Tolerance, Eduardo Lopez-Dóriga.


To award the prize to Enkvist, the jury highlighted her love of teaching with the conviction that the fundamental aspects of personality are forged in the early years. As well as his staunch defense of the teaching of languages ​​as a vehicle for the full development of the intellect, appearing opposite to the exclusion of Castilian as the language of the public education system in Catalonia.


It takes over Victoria Prego


Enkvist takes over from the journalist Victoria Prego, awarded in 2013. In the past, the prize has been awarded since 1995, went to Felix Shepherd, Regina Otaola, Xavier Pericay, Mingote Antonio Carlos Herrera, Mario Vargas Llosa, Rosa Díez, Arcadi Espada, Antonio Muñoz Molina, Iván Tubau, Fernando Savater, Felix de Azua, Gregorio Peces-Barba, Francesc de Carreras, Albert Boadella, enough is Enough! Baltasar Garzon, among others.

https://laverdadofende.wordpress.co...es-perversos-el-adoctrinamiento-nacionalista/
 

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