Humans : one species, infinite varieties

[LeBrok]

Easier is not a good word really in this case, its just one possibility compared to another, and it is very possible that europeans developed blonde hair and light eyes through a separate mutation,

Very well, as you wish. It is much more likely and faster to get already existing mutation from species who you can breed with, than develop spontaneous mutation. For spontaneous mutation you can wait from one generation to infinity. It doesn't really need to happen at all. You have to keep in mind that population way back was much smaller than today, therefore probability of this mutation was also much rarer. This is just a question of probabilities, and likelihood.

the Melanesians are proofe that this is possible

You just speculating, it's not a proof. It is possible that blond hair in their tribe was more common in the past, and now they are "regressing" to black hair. Who knows maybe in few generation their blond hair will be very rare or extinct. There is no need for blond hair in this climate, therefore this trait might be recessive. Anyway it exist only in kids. They might have just some melanin producing gene turned off till puberty. The mutant founder effect?

Also if all europeans carry Neanderthal dna, which they should if they mixed with them because Neanderthal was essentially located in all of Europe.

IIRC the Iceman from Alps had twice as much of Neanderthal genes than today's europeans. It means we are loosing original Neanderthal genes. Well, I guess genes mutated, and I think we have more Neanderthal's DNA but it is becoming unrecognizable after many mutations.

Then why are southern Europeans darker than northern europeans? because they live in a hotter climate where the sun is stronger and their bodies need to produce more melanin.

During Ice age climatic zones were pushed down south. It is logical then to see white Neanderthals around mediterranean.

Severe climates certainly push the body into extreme circumstances and we know that this does have a definite effect on evolution. I think that with the lack of melanin in the body in Nordic countries, the enviormental pressure would be very conducive to promoting light hair and eyes. Im not saying this is what exactly happened, but im saying that it could be very likely that europeans developed this on their own with out it coming from Neanderthals

There are few genes involved in it, not one, so it is obvious that Northern Europeans developed extra mutations for extra light skin. I'm just saying that Neandertals gave them a "kick start". They made possible for Africans to move North into Europe and Asia. Otherwise black Africans would have been dead in few generations in Moderate climates.

 

[silkyslovanbojkovsky]

Very well, as you wish. It is much more likely and faster to get already existing mutation from species who you can breed with, than develop spontaneous mutation. For spontaneous mutation you can wait from one generation to infinity. It doesn't really need to happen at all. You have to keep in mind that population way back was much smaller than today, therefore probability of this mutation was also much rarer. This is just a question of probabilities, and likelihood.


You just speculating, it's not a proof. It is possible that blond hair in their tribe was more common in the past, and now they are "regressing" to black hair. Who knows maybe in few generation their blond hair will be very rare or extinct. There is no need for blond hair in this climate, therefore this trait might be recessive. Anyway it exist only in kids. They might have just some melanin producing gene turned off till puberty. The mutant founder effect?



IIRC the Iceman from Alps had twice as much of Neanderthal genes than today's europeans. It means we are loosing original Neanderthal genes. Well, I guess genes mutated, and I think we have more Neanderthal's DNA but it is becoming unrecognizable after many mutations.

During Ice age climatic zones were pushed down south. It is logical then to see white Neanderthals around mediterranean.



There are few genes involved in it, not one, so it is obvious that Northern Europeans developed extra mutations for extra light skin. I'm just saying that Neandertals gave them a "kick start". They made possible for Africans to move North into Europe and Asia. Otherwise black Africans would have been dead in few generations in Moderate climates.

Look, I never denied anything you said. It is very possible what you are saying, but you are stating it as a 100 percent certain fact, which it is definitely not, it is just as much speculation. The fact that people in Melanesia have blonde hair, and even if it is in children(so what), is proofe that blonde hair can arise in a population with out influence from Neanderthals. That is not speculation. Also, of course it is faster to receive these genes from interbreeding, but that has no influence on peoples actions to mate! Cro-magnon wasn't thinking when he came into Europe "Hey those guys are lighter than I am which is better in this climate, I should breed with him so my children can have that." What I was saying is that southern Europeans are darker than northern Europeans yet both have Neanderthal dna, the fact that northern Europeans have lighter skin, eyes, and hair is because northern climates are conducive to these traits, I know you think that Neanderthal just kick started it, and Im not against this, im just stating another side of the coin. Neanderthal had these traits, and he certainly developed it on his own, why could this not happen again in a span of 40 thousand years. Of course this is all speculation. A lot of the threads, Maciamo's including, are just speculation. That's what intelligent people do is speculate. Also I do believe there was mixing but I don't think there is a HUGE amount of Neanderthal genes in Modern Europeans, because Modern Europeans very closely resemble Cro-Magnon much more than they do Neanderthal.

 

[silkyslovanbojkovsky]

Ok, fine then. Lets see YOUR data on autosomal diversity in europe that proves it's the least diverse and has fewer rare mutations. Good luck with that. I already told you 100% of that comes from comparison of y-DNA and mtDNA clades, which means nothing. Waste some of your own time to make your own case instead of wasting mine then failing to address any part of it.

I spent hours collecting some of that post's links and you obviously didn't read them and have no idea about any of the issues I am talking about.

I think it's telling the first thing you assume is that I have some agenda. Amazing as it might seem I just have an interest in archaeology and human origins and not a political agenda, though clearly that's not the case for most people here.

I didn't force you to do anything. If you spent hours doing something that's your own problem. Autosomal dna has proved even more that Europeans are the most homogenous continent on Earth, more so even then y-dna or mt-dna has. European countries cluster tightly to eachother compared to African clusters. Coming from a person who states that e1b was brought to Europe by Jews and J2 by the ottomans, Im not sure if you have any clue about genetics at all.