Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

[sparkey]

Further, it's well cited that the most genetically distant human groups, such as Northern Europeans and Sub Saharan Africans share 98.5-99% of base pairs, yet according to all the Neanderthal genomic data we have so far modern Euros and Neanderthal share 99.7% of base pairs... Anyone else starting to wonder about how this "disappearance" event could have actually consisted of?

These statistics sound wrong. Have sources?

Surely, all Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups present in modern Europeans are African Homo Sapiens in origin, rather than Neanderthal. That puts a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA Neanderthals could have introduced, especially considering that mtDNA in particular has a relatively low bottlenecking rate and little selection pressure. I don't discount the hypothesis that certain autosomal traits could have been introduced via Neanderthal interbreeding and then selected for, but the total autosomal input can't be nearly as high as you're suggesting.

[sparkey]

IJ and IJK haplogroups have never been found in nature, they've never been seen anywhere. They have just been "theorized" to exist, in order to explain the existence of haplogroup I, which is not tied to any other human yDNA haplogroup except for through these hypothesized IJ and IJK haplos.

You're right that IJ and IJK are currently unobserved (as is I* for that matter), but you're wrong about IJ and IJK being purely hypothesized. I is tied to J via common SNPs that mutate very slowly, so for IJ not to have existed at one point is a statistical impossibility. Same goes for IJ being tied to K to make IJK. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Haplogroup I does not share a common ancestor with J, probably from Asia, and a common African ancestor with the rest of the modern human Y-DNA haplogroups.

[Savant]

The dual origins notion is about the only reasonable contribution Coon made to evolutionary / physical anthropology. The man was wrong on just about everything else... A nut-job.

It could be worse. I mean, at least he's not Gould or Boas

[Savant]

Eventually enough hard evidence will be accumulated that provides sufficient proof of Cro-Magnon / Neanderthal mixing.

Funny how now that the Neanderthal issue has been raised they have juggled back and forth on what a "Cro-Magnon" actually is. Apparently it was decided a "Cro-Magnon" means something different in Europe than it does for everyone else, then when this was pointed out they ended up deciding that Cro-Magnon was not actually a scientific or anthropological distinction.

[Savant]

You're right that IJ and IJK are currently unobserved (as is I* for that matter), but you're wrong about IJ and IJK being purely hypothesized. I is tied to J via common SNPs that mutate very slowly, so for IJ not to have existed at one point is a statistical impossibility. Same goes for IJ being tied to K to make IJK. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Haplogroup I does not share a common ancestor with J, probably from Asia, and a common African ancestor with the rest of the modern human Y-DNA haplogroups.

You're trying to play a semantics game. The fact that IJ and IJK have never been observed means that they have been hypothesized. I APPEARS TO be tied to J but that merely reinforces MY point because J is supposed to have descended from the imaginary IJ and IJK haplogroups too. So the fact that I and J seem to share some (very old) commonality merely begs the question. We DO know that I lived among Neanderthal and inhabited the same Paleolithic refuge enclaves as Neanderthal, such as Doggerland, and coexisted for at least 10-15k years. We DO know that Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon interbred. So why then, do we "know" that all Y and mt haplogroups in Euros are of Afro-Sapiens origin? We DO know that Neanderthal and Cro-Mag interbred, we DO know that the lived together for thousands of years, we DO know that we can't tie I to the rest of the OOA sapiens haplogroups, other than through imaginary hypothesized haplogroups . So, how then is it that we "know" that's where it came from? Sounds a bit like an article of faith to me....

[Savant]

These statistics sound wrong. Have sources?

Surely, all Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups present in modern Europeans are African Homo Sapiens in origin, rather than Neanderthal. That puts a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA Neanderthals could have introduced, especially considering that mtDNA in particular has a relatively low bottlenecking rate and little selection pressure. I don't discount the hypothesis that certain autosomal traits could have been introduced via Neanderthal interbreeding and then selected for, but the total autosomal input can't be nearly as high as you're suggesting.

Your assertion is "surely" based on a false assumption. And no, even if all yDNA and mtDNA hgs were Afro Sapiens in origin this does not "put a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA" Neanderthals could have introduced. There are r1b men in sub saharan africa with almost entirely african autosomes. Further, even if this fairy tale were true, there's nothing which links I to the rest other than these imaginary haplogroups that no one has ever seen. Yet, there's strong evidence which suggests it could have come from previously present paleolithic populations.

[Savant]

According to Ken Nordtvedt, probably the most active yDNA hg I researcher:

We have never found a single haplotype of IJK, IJ, or I* And a very long time goes by between the IJK nodeman and the earliest clades of I that we see --- perhaps the I2* and I2a1 M26+ clades. We're talking several tens of thousands of years.

Just sayin....

[1rainman]

A few corrections:

Cro-Magnon only existed in Europe. Cro-Magnon looks like a modern European (except larger brain the modern Europeans and a bit more robust). The Cro-Magnon seems to be the result of a gentic bottleneck with homo erectus (or related) ancestors. That's where modern Europeans came from- Cro-Magnon. The "Nordic" racial type is nothing but a less robust cro-magnon, which again probably originated from a small tribe that genetically drifted/mutated a bit into modern Nordic features and spread due to adaptability.

Cave Paintings along with flutes, advanced religion, knowledge of astronomy etc. is assocaited with cro-magnon early on and with no other human species at this time.

Physcially the "Kazar" racial type (often associated with Ashkenazi Jews) is the closest modern physical resemblance to a Neanderthal. From what I've read though there was some interbreeding and some small percentage of neanderthal in modern Europeans. Yet this is maybe 2%. Pretty much all the mutations associated with modern Europeans occured in cro-magnon. Neanderthal might have contributed something though.

Jotuns are the equivalent of Greek Titans and Norse mythology doesn't vary much from other Aryan mythologies.


From Indian (Aryan-Vedic) records we have an understanding of Aryan mytholgoy in which the Asuras (Aesir) are assocaited with "heaven". These are astrological gods which progenated the "Aryan" race. The Aryan race has light feature as a result, namely blue eyes. The story is also in the Bible (influenced by Aryan mythology) when the sons of god mated with the sons of man to great the nephilim- giants of old.

This is where the concept of "white devil" or "blue eyed devil" comes from. According to this line of thought Aryans are aliens to this planet and non-Aryans are the natives. Is it supposed to be a literal story? It comes down in fragments. The "Gods" are planets- mars, mercury etc. could be simply that Aryans had a knowledge of astrology and associated themselves with being the "sky people". In India you see the gods depicted as blue skinned (like the sky) elves are known as "the shining ones- brighter than the sun" blond hair shining like the sun etc. it's all associated with sky.

[Taranis]

A few corrections:

Cro-Magnon only existed in Europe. Cro-Magnon looks like a modern European (except larger brain the modern Europeans and a bit more robust). The Cro-Magnon seems to be the result of a gentic bottleneck with homo erectus (or related) ancestors. That's where modern Europeans came from- Cro-Magnon. The "Nordic" racial type is nothing but a less robust cro-magnon, which again probably originated from a small tribe that genetically drifted/mutated a bit into modern Nordic features and spread due to adaptability.

Cave Paintings along with flutes, advanced religion, knowledge of astronomy etc. is assocaited with cro-magnon early on and with no other human species at this time.

Physcially the "Kazar" racial type (often associated with Ashkenazi Jews) is the closest modern physical resemblance to a Neanderthal. From what I've read though there was some interbreeding and some small percentage of neanderthal in modern Europeans. Yet this is maybe 2%. Pretty much all the mutations associated with modern Europeans occured in cro-magnon. Neanderthal might have contributed something though.

Jotuns are the equivalent of Greek Titans and Norse mythology doesn't vary much from other Aryan mythologies.


From Indian (Aryan-Vedic) records we have an understanding of Aryan mytholgoy in which the Asuras (Aesir) are assocaited with "heaven". These are astrological gods which progenated the "Aryan" race. The Aryan race has light feature as a result, namely blue eyes. The story is also in the Bible (influenced by Aryan mythology) when the sons of god mated with the sons of man to great the nephilim- giants of old.

This is where the concept of "white devil" or "blue eyed devil" comes from. According to this line of thought Aryans are aliens to this planet and non-Aryans are the natives. Is it supposed to be a literal story? It comes down in fragments. The "Gods" are planets- mars, mercury etc. could be simply that Aryans had a knowledge of astrology and associated themselves with being the "sky people". In India you see the gods depicted as blue skinned (like the sky) elves are known as "the shining ones- brighter than the sun" blond hair shining like the sun etc. it's all associated with sky.

Such nonsense is not tolerated here. Banned.

[Savant]

Surely he was joking... I'm unrestrained by orthodoxy as they come, but THIS guy, wow!! Nordics are CMs who are like Ashkenazi Jews who are like Neanderhtals who are like Greek Titans and Aryan deities?! Because they have blue eyes? and are "sky people"?



That guy is going to be passing out the green kool-aid and selling tickets for the next comet any day now... He's pretty hard-core. That one is gonna be hard to top...

[Hopion]

OK so ? What does cro - means and what does magnon - means ??

[Taranis]

OK so ? What does cro - means and what does magnon - means ??

You return again under a different name to avoid your previous bans. Oh, I think you're banned again.

[Klausin]

I think that was just to harsh towards a boy, oh well. Btw what does Cro-magnon means ??

[Savant]

That's the thing; they can't make up their mind what Cro-Mag means, they did decide that it means something else for Europeans than it means for everyone else, then they decided that it wasn't an actual scientific distinction at all. I'm not sure what the current designation it is for the term. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably now categorized as a "social construct".

[edao]

How I traced my ancestry back to the Stone Age

As genome research continues at a greater pace than ever before, sometime in the next decade the cost of having your whole genome sequenced - all three billion letters of the code - will become affordable. When that happens, it will change genetic genealogy all over again, the experts I talked to say.


"What you'll be able to do is look at an individual's genome and say, all right, they have this mutation, which arose in a particular village in the south of France, for example," says Harvard genetecist expert Joe Pickrell.


"You'd be able to say with nearly 100% certainty that you have some ancestor who came from that particular village."



source

[misssunlight]

I heard some people methoded this thing in college, but I doubted