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Thread: Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaden View Post
    Further, it's well cited that the most genetically distant human groups, such as Northern Europeans and Sub Saharan Africans share 98.5-99% of base pairs, yet according to all the Neanderthal genomic data we have so far modern Euros and Neanderthal share 99.7% of base pairs... Anyone else starting to wonder about how this "disappearance" event could have actually consisted of?
    These statistics sound wrong. Have sources?

    Surely, all Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups present in modern Europeans are African Homo Sapiens in origin, rather than Neanderthal. That puts a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA Neanderthals could have introduced, especially considering that mtDNA in particular has a relatively low bottlenecking rate and little selection pressure. I don't discount the hypothesis that certain autosomal traits could have been introduced via Neanderthal interbreeding and then selected for, but the total autosomal input can't be nearly as high as you're suggesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jaden View Post
    IJ and IJK haplogroups have never been found in nature, they've never been seen anywhere. They have just been "theorized" to exist, in order to explain the existence of haplogroup I, which is not tied to any other human yDNA haplogroup except for through these hypothesized IJ and IJK haplos.
    You're right that IJ and IJK are currently unobserved (as is I* for that matter), but you're wrong about IJ and IJK being purely hypothesized. I is tied to J via common SNPs that mutate very slowly, so for IJ not to have existed at one point is a statistical impossibility. Same goes for IJ being tied to K to make IJK. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Haplogroup I does not share a common ancestor with J, probably from Asia, and a common African ancestor with the rest of the modern human Y-DNA haplogroups.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    The dual origins notion is about the only reasonable contribution Coon made to evolutionary / physical anthropology. The man was wrong on just about everything else... A nut-job.
    It could be worse. I mean, at least he's not Gould or Boas

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cambrius (The Red) View Post
    Eventually enough hard evidence will be accumulated that provides sufficient proof of Cro-Magnon / Neanderthal mixing.
    Funny how now that the Neanderthal issue has been raised they have juggled back and forth on what a "Cro-Magnon" actually is. Apparently it was decided a "Cro-Magnon" means something different in Europe than it does for everyone else, then when this was pointed out they ended up deciding that Cro-Magnon was not actually a scientific or anthropological distinction.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    You're right that IJ and IJK are currently unobserved (as is I* for that matter), but you're wrong about IJ and IJK being purely hypothesized. I is tied to J via common SNPs that mutate very slowly, so for IJ not to have existed at one point is a statistical impossibility. Same goes for IJ being tied to K to make IJK. Don't fool yourself into thinking that Haplogroup I does not share a common ancestor with J, probably from Asia, and a common African ancestor with the rest of the modern human Y-DNA haplogroups.
    You're trying to play a semantics game. The fact that IJ and IJK have never been observed means that they have been hypothesized. I APPEARS TO be tied to J but that merely reinforces MY point because J is supposed to have descended from the imaginary IJ and IJK haplogroups too. So the fact that I and J seem to share some (very old) commonality merely begs the question. We DO know that I lived among Neanderthal and inhabited the same Paleolithic refuge enclaves as Neanderthal, such as Doggerland, and coexisted for at least 10-15k years. We DO know that Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon interbred. So why then, do we "know" that all Y and mt haplogroups in Euros are of Afro-Sapiens origin? We DO know that Neanderthal and Cro-Mag interbred, we DO know that the lived together for thousands of years, we DO know that we can't tie I to the rest of the OOA sapiens haplogroups, other than through imaginary hypothesized haplogroups . So, how then is it that we "know" that's where it came from? Sounds a bit like an article of faith to me....

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    These statistics sound wrong. Have sources?

    Surely, all Y-DNA and mtDNA haplogroups present in modern Europeans are African Homo Sapiens in origin, rather than Neanderthal. That puts a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA Neanderthals could have introduced, especially considering that mtDNA in particular has a relatively low bottlenecking rate and little selection pressure. I don't discount the hypothesis that certain autosomal traits could have been introduced via Neanderthal interbreeding and then selected for, but the total autosomal input can't be nearly as high as you're suggesting.
    Your assertion is "surely" based on a false assumption. And no, even if all yDNA and mtDNA hgs were Afro Sapiens in origin this does not "put a limit on the amount of autosomal DNA" Neanderthals could have introduced. There are r1b men in sub saharan africa with almost entirely african autosomes. Further, even if this fairy tale were true, there's nothing which links I to the rest other than these imaginary haplogroups that no one has ever seen. Yet, there's strong evidence which suggests it could have come from previously present paleolithic populations.

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    According to Ken Nordtvedt, probably the most active yDNA hg I researcher:
    We have never found a single haplotype of IJK, IJ, or I* And a very long time goes by between the IJK nodeman and the earliest clades of I that we see --- perhaps the I2* and I2a1 M26+ clades. We're talking several tens of thousands of years.


    Just sayin....

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    A few corrections:

    Cro-Magnon only existed in Europe. Cro-Magnon looks like a modern European (except larger brain the modern Europeans and a bit more robust). The Cro-Magnon seems to be the result of a gentic bottleneck with homo erectus (or related) ancestors. That's where modern Europeans came from- Cro-Magnon. The "Nordic" racial type is nothing but a less robust cro-magnon, which again probably originated from a small tribe that genetically drifted/mutated a bit into modern Nordic features and spread due to adaptability.

    Cave Paintings along with flutes, advanced religion, knowledge of astronomy etc. is assocaited with cro-magnon early on and with no other human species at this time.

    Physcially the "Kazar" racial type (often associated with Ashkenazi Jews) is the closest modern physical resemblance to a Neanderthal. From what I've read though there was some interbreeding and some small percentage of neanderthal in modern Europeans. Yet this is maybe 2%. Pretty much all the mutations associated with modern Europeans occured in cro-magnon. Neanderthal might have contributed something though.

    Jotuns are the equivalent of Greek Titans and Norse mythology doesn't vary much from other Aryan mythologies.


    From Indian (Aryan-Vedic) records we have an understanding of Aryan mytholgoy in which the Asuras (Aesir) are assocaited with "heaven". These are astrological gods which progenated the "Aryan" race. The Aryan race has light feature as a result, namely blue eyes. The story is also in the Bible (influenced by Aryan mythology) when the sons of god mated with the sons of man to great the nephilim- giants of old.

    This is where the concept of "white devil" or "blue eyed devil" comes from. According to this line of thought Aryans are aliens to this planet and non-Aryans are the natives. Is it supposed to be a literal story? It comes down in fragments. The "Gods" are planets- mars, mercury etc. could be simply that Aryans had a knowledge of astrology and associated themselves with being the "sky people". In India you see the gods depicted as blue skinned (like the sky) elves are known as "the shining ones- brighter than the sun" blond hair shining like the sun etc. it's all associated with sky.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 1rainman View Post
    A few corrections:

    Cro-Magnon only existed in Europe. Cro-Magnon looks like a modern European (except larger brain the modern Europeans and a bit more robust). The Cro-Magnon seems to be the result of a gentic bottleneck with homo erectus (or related) ancestors. That's where modern Europeans came from- Cro-Magnon. The "Nordic" racial type is nothing but a less robust cro-magnon, which again probably originated from a small tribe that genetically drifted/mutated a bit into modern Nordic features and spread due to adaptability.

    Cave Paintings along with flutes, advanced religion, knowledge of astronomy etc. is assocaited with cro-magnon early on and with no other human species at this time.

    Physcially the "Kazar" racial type (often associated with Ashkenazi Jews) is the closest modern physical resemblance to a Neanderthal. From what I've read though there was some interbreeding and some small percentage of neanderthal in modern Europeans. Yet this is maybe 2%. Pretty much all the mutations associated with modern Europeans occured in cro-magnon. Neanderthal might have contributed something though.

    Jotuns are the equivalent of Greek Titans and Norse mythology doesn't vary much from other Aryan mythologies.


    From Indian (Aryan-Vedic) records we have an understanding of Aryan mytholgoy in which the Asuras (Aesir) are assocaited with "heaven". These are astrological gods which progenated the "Aryan" race. The Aryan race has light feature as a result, namely blue eyes. The story is also in the Bible (influenced by Aryan mythology) when the sons of god mated with the sons of man to great the nephilim- giants of old.

    This is where the concept of "white devil" or "blue eyed devil" comes from. According to this line of thought Aryans are aliens to this planet and non-Aryans are the natives. Is it supposed to be a literal story? It comes down in fragments. The "Gods" are planets- mars, mercury etc. could be simply that Aryans had a knowledge of astrology and associated themselves with being the "sky people". In India you see the gods depicted as blue skinned (like the sky) elves are known as "the shining ones- brighter than the sun" blond hair shining like the sun etc. it's all associated with sky.
    Such nonsense is not tolerated here. Banned.

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    Surely he was joking... I'm unrestrained by orthodoxy as they come, but THIS guy, wow!! Nordics are CMs who are like Ashkenazi Jews who are like Neanderhtals who are like Greek Titans and Aryan deities?! Because they have blue eyes? and are "sky people"?



    That guy is going to be passing out the green kool-aid and selling tickets for the next comet any day now... He's pretty hard-core. That one is gonna be hard to top...

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    OK so ? What does cro - means and what does magnon - means ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopion View Post
    OK so ? What does cro - means and what does magnon - means ??
    You return again under a different name to avoid your previous bans. Oh, I think you're banned again.

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    I think that was just to harsh towards a boy, oh well. Btw what does Cro-magnon means ??

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    That's the thing; they can't make up their mind what Cro-Mag means, they did decide that it means something else for Europeans than it means for everyone else, then they decided that it wasn't an actual scientific distinction at all. I'm not sure what the current designation it is for the term. If I had to guess I'd say it's probably now categorized as a "social construct".

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    How I traced my ancestry back to the Stone Age

    As genome research continues at a greater pace than ever before, sometime in the next decade the cost of having your whole genome sequenced - all three billion letters of the code - will become affordable. When that happens, it will change genetic genealogy all over again, the experts I talked to say.


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    I heard some people methoded this thing in college, but I doubted

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    Human societies everywhere on Earth have lived for thousands of years with gender roles. In fact humans have separated tasks between men and women ever since the stone age. Men went hunting or warring while women were gathering, taking care of the children or sewing clothes from animal skins. Hormones influence the specialisation of the brain. This is why men and women think and feel differently. Gender role division runs deep into our genes.

    Gender equality is something that appeared in Northern Europe. Medieval Norse societies were already much more egalitarian, socially and sexually, than any other part of Europe at the time. Even though women's rights activism has now spread through most of the Western world and has reached other countries since (e.g. China, thanks to communism), the only societies where women can really aspire to act and be treated like the equal of men are only found in Nordic countries.

    Now what is interesting is that Neanderthals did not practice gender role division, like Homo Sapiens. Both men and women went hunting together. Some specialists have argued that could be why Homo Sapiens ultimately got an advantage over Neanderthals, as women had spare time to make clothes, build tools or make pottery vessels, becoming technologically superior to their distant cousins.

    If gender roles are genetically determined in modern humans, how comes that out of all humans in the world some came to act differently, more like Neanderthals. Maybe a percentage of the Scandinavians have always behaved this way justly because they inherited the "gender equality" gene from Neanderthal. It does not mean at all that they are the modern Neanderthals, just that they inherited at least this gene. It only takes one accidental mating with a Neanderthal at one point to spread some of their genes through a Homo Sapiens population. If it is useful it is survive natural selection, even if only locally.

    There is overwhelming evidence that modern humans inherited at least some genes from Neanderthal (see above). Maybe that it less than 0.1% of our genome, but it is there. Blue eyes and red hair could very well have come from Neanderthal too. Why not the gender equality gene ? I am not even arguing the existence of such a gene. It is evident from the archeological evidence about the difference of lifestyle between Homo Sapiens and Neanderthal. It could not have been cultural. Some animals also have gene for gender equality (e.g. ducks), while others are genetically determined for role separation (e.g. lions).

    Had gender equality been characteristic of many human societies on Earth for centuries, we could argue that the gene might have spread worldwide. However I think that this phenomenon is more limited to people of Scandinavian descent, who spread the gene through most of the Western world at varying levels with the Viking invasions. Gender equality is not so much cultural as genetic. Parts of Europe closely related to Scandinavia, be it the Baltic, the Netherlands or East England all have a higher tendency to gender equality. Conversely, the most genetically distant countries (Greece, Southern Italy) also have the most marked gender division.
    Interesting, but lets not forget that cultural influence and ideas have a huge affect on the way people perceive things and live there life. You stated northern Slavic people have along with other mainly northern European peoples more Neanderthal genes, but Gender roles are quite different in Slavic culture, actually in all eastern European culture.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silkyslovanbojkovsky View Post
    Gender roles are quite different in Slavic culture, actually in all eastern European culture.
    Different compared to who (other nations), or different to each other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeBrok View Post
    Different compared to who (other nations), or different to each other?
    Im stating that gender roles are apparently different in Slavic culture. Im not comparing it to any specific nation. Maciamo was stating that in Neanderthal culture males and females had similar roles hunting, gathering etc. Where as this was not the case in Cro-Magnon where they had very different roles. In Slavic culture women have always had very different roles than men. Even in Modern times when I compare the times Ive lived in western Europe to eastern Europe, there was a very apparent difference in the way women were expected and did act in eastern Europe as apposed to in western Europe. This is even apparent in the Slavic languages where the grammar for females is very different than the grammar for males. Maciamo had stated earlier that Northern Slavic people probably had higher genes from Neanderthal, but if this is the case why would they not be like Nordic countries, and not have as much distinction in gender roles, because Slavic culture does have this distinction. I understand Maciamo is just stating thoughts that maybe these culture traits can come from genetics, but I think a lot of times we, im using this term broadly, anthropologists make the mistake of thinking culture doesn't have as big an affect as it really does.

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    Gender equality was absolute in celtic societies and was never completely lost. The english imposed it more on the cymry and irish than they ever practiced it themselves.

    edit: The funny thing about him getting banned is if he replaced aryan (ancient name for persian) with Indo European "race" then it would fit almost exactly with what maciamo claims happened with indo europeans. Though I'd say this clearly didn't really happen anyway, and these r1b have been all over a long time and the gedrosian marker is simply invalid. You can't choose a marker and assume it's got no selection on it when the population you study is nearly homogenous. That means it's in a selective sweep. Invalid methodology, end of story. You can only get some kind of info out of autosomals when they are relatively rare remnants that are obviously not under selection, like when looking for introgression of ancient hominids.

    I also can't see any support to say neanderthal features are primarily nordic. It's just not true. Basque, Irish, and certain jews and nonjew ukrainians(the real khazarian type that is not that common any more, often with red or reddish hair, blue eyes and large skull) show much more neanderthal features than any other populations. Only similarity to neanderthals and nordics is a longer skull, front to back, but that exists in some black africans, too. With no occipital bun it's clearly not neanderthal in origin.
    Last edited by Noman; 30-08-13 at 23:11.

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    Noman

    Modern Europeans have much "Indo-europeean" heritage. The persians are mostly arabic/semitic with small procent of aryan admixture.

    You talk much shit to be hounest. I can tell your a superculturemarxist.

    And i dont even bealive Northeuropeans are superior. I am italian myself - I just dont like the idé of Indians and Persians to be some civilisation starters. Becuse thats a pure LIE.

    Sorry for my bad english.

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