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Thread: Do modern Europeans partly descend from Neanderthal ?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I have read further studies mentioning that at first (until about 40,000 years ago), Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons had the same tools, technology and lifestyle. Both buried their deaths, with similar ornaments. The Cro-Magnons then developed new tools, which were either copied or developed independently later by Neanderthals. As a matter of intelligence, both seem to be equivalent. Skeletons of hybrids of the two species dating from 25,000 years ago, around the time of the disapperance of Neanderthals, may indicate that their disappearance was indeed due to a genetic absorbtion by the increasingly numerous Cro-Magnons. This latter would have outnumbered Neanderthals due to to the cooling of the climate and the fact that Neanderthals always lived more North, in colder regions with less food, while Cro-Magnon could migrate south more easily via the Middle East to Africa, then come back more numerous when climate warmed up again. There have been signs of trade between the two species, which show that they had amicable contacts, and could very well of interbred with each others.

    Furthermore, we see around 15-20,000 years ago, just after the hypothetical merger of the 2 species, the appearance of mural paintings in caves. This phenomemon is strictly limited to Western Europe. Why would such paintings have been done by European Cro-Magnon only, and not other Cro-Magnon (=Homo Sapiens) around the world ? I believe that this could be due to the racial convergence with Neanderthal, because Neanderthal had a more developed occipital lobe, and thus a better vision and visual memory, resulting in an earlier development of visual arts. This also explains the difference in skull shape, especially the more elongated occipital lobe, between Caucasoids and other humans, esp. compared to Mongoloids.

    Some French and American researchers also found convincing evidence of an direct evolution from the Asian Homo Erectus toward the modern Asian Homo Sapiens, probably after interbreeding with a new arrival of Homo Sapiens from the Middle East.
    I read those homos Neanderthalensis, better known as Neanderthals, are believed to be extinct hominid cousins of our species, Homo sapiens. However, scientists have recently discovered that some humans have genes in common with Neanderthals, an unexpected twist which dispels the former extinction truth. Some anthropologists have argued for years that there must be presence of Neanderthals genes in modern Homo sapiens, but their theory is based solely on the similarities of skull and skeletal structures.

    Despite the similarities in skull/skeletal structure, some anthropologist argued that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens were separate species, interbreeding was deemed impossible, and therefore it never occurred.

    The controversy can now be laid to rest as Dr Richard E. Green and fifty other members of an international research team have recently published a study for the American association for Advancement of Science in their journal science, that demonstrates a flow "of genetic material" between early Homo Sapiens and Neanderthals.

    The newest research into Neanderthals DNA is all the more compelling. It has unveiled that bits of genome, which modern Homo sapiens share with Neanderthals, are not present in Sub-Saharan African genes, but present in human populations in all other parts of the globe.

    In order for Neanderthal genes to be so widespread across the globe, and be present in parts of the world which Neanderthals never migrated, such as Papua New Guinea, interbreeding must have occurred very early in chronology of human migration, outside of Africa. It is inferred that the first human migrants out of Africa encountered Neanderthals, or perhaps another hominid species that had a component of Neanderthal genes, in Arabia or the Middle East, around 80 000 years ago.

    It is not speculated as to why interbreeding took place between Neanderthals and non-African homo sapiens, or if it was even consensual, but that the gene flow travelled only in one direction, from Neanderthals male to homo sapiens female. The resulting children were more likely to be raised by Homo sapiens, according to study results of mitochondrial DNA.

    In light of the recent developments of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens relations, academics specializing in hominid evolution agree that this discovery may suggest and more complex crowded human family tree, than the current model expresses. The current model may need to be altered in the future if more hybrid, intermediate subspecies, or variants on human species are discovered.

    Existing models of the human family tree depict Homo sapiens and homo Nederthanlensis as a separate species. However, with new DNA evidence suggesting non-African modern humans are more closely related to Neanderthals, the tree may need altering for non-Africans who are descendants of “humerthals” ...human/Neanderthals hybrids.

    A team led by Svante Paabo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Germany recently examined patterns of nuclear genome variation in modern humans. The study identified twelve genome regions where non-African possessed variants which weren't found in indigenous Africans, with ten variants matching genomes derived from Neanderthals.

    Those genome variants have led to non-African modern humans further evolving their genome from even that of Neanderthals, allowing greater survival through natural selection. The affected genes identified in the study are responsible for coding cognitive, metabolic and skeletal development.

    Also addressed by scientist, are concerns that their findings, which highlight genetic differences in modern non-African human relatedness to Neanderthals, may spark racial questions of inferiority. Scientific evidence confirms Neanderthals do not cause non-Africans to be inferior to indigenous Africans.

    Rather, inbreeding with Neanderthals would have evolved migrating Homo sapiens (non-Africans) quicker by transferring genes crucial to survival in any harsh condition. Neanderthals had already acquired these genes as they had migrated out of Africa thousands of years prior to Homo sapiens.

    Furthermore, anybody who claims to be indigenous Africans but possesses genes indicating a genetic heritage to Neanderthals be included in the category of non-African, even if they continue to reside in the continent of Africa. There are two potential scenarios to explain these occurrences:

    Scenario 1: An African's ancestor(s) migrated out of Africa at some point in time, bred with a non-African(s), and then back migrated into Africa where they reside today.

    Scenario 2: An African's ancestor(s) bred with somebody of non-African descent in Africa.

    Either scenario would have allowed Neanderthal genes to be administered to an African genome and cause the individual to no longer belong to a group of purely indigenous Africans.

    Often, is the case in North Africans, where heavy amounts of non-Africans back-migrated and settled, causing the modern populations to possess Neanderthals genes even if their ancestors resided in Africa as long as 20 000 years ago.

    Also in the case of African Americans. Their ancestors’ relocation outside of Africa allowed breeding with non-Africans, causing some modern African Americans to possess Neanderthals genes like non-Africans.

    So, according to these studies, non-Africans are all Neanderthals not just Europeans. We are the reason Neanderthals never became extinct. They live on each and every one of our genomes.



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    There was interbreeding in SW Asia ca 55-60 ka.
    Haplo A, B and E didn't interbreed with Neanderthal. Mota E 4.5 ka didn't have Neanderthal admixture.
    That leaves C, D and F. Did they interbreed all 3 or just one of them?
    IMO only C did and it got to F and D through admixture with C.

    Basal Eurasian didn't have Neanderthal DNA.
    IMO Basal Eurasian is FGH which split from IJK ca 48 ka and then lived in isolation in central & southern India till ca 30 ka.
    FGH was free of Neanderthal admixure till ca 30 ka.

    The Oase I sample didn't get his Neanderthal DNA in SW Asia ca 55-60 ka, it got it in Europe ca 40 ka, right before the Neanderthals got extinct in Europe.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/sc...asia.html?_r=0

    According to the above article, researchers found a peculiar pattern in non-Africans: People in China, Japan and other East Asian countries have about 20 percent more Neanderthal DNA than do Europeans.

    The article also mentioned that most Neanderthal genes probably had modestly bad effects on the health of our ancestors, Dr. Sankararaman and other researchers have found. People who inherited a Neanderthal version of any given gene would have had fewer children on average than people with the human version.

    Then it went on and has informed us that If Neanderthals became extinct 40,000 years ago, they may have disappeared before Europeans and Asian populations genetically diverged. How could there have been Neanderthals left to interbreed with Asians a second time?

    It is conceivable that the extinction of the Neanderthals happened later in Asia. If that is true, there might yet be more recent Neanderthal fossils waiting to be discovered there.

    Or perhaps Asians interbred with some other group of humans that had interbred with Neanderthals and carried much of their DNA. Later, that group disappeared.

    “That’s a paradox the field needs to address,” Dr. Lohmueller said.


    Ok, so people in here are saying that Nordic ppl who have light features would therefore have the highest percentage of Neanderthals genomes. Well, apparently, this latest research have just debunked their theories. They are now saying that people in China, Japan and other East Asian countries have about 20 percent more Neanderthal DNA than do Europeans.

    Neanderthals have large heads according to the studies I have read. If you notice East Asian people do indeed have larger heads in comparison to their bodies unlike Caucasian and African people. East Asian people are also shorter on average than the other people, with the exception of Koreans and Northern Chinese. East Asians can appeared to be quiet light in skin colors, but do not have light hair or eyes unlike Caucasians. Anyway, they are saying except the indigenous Africans, everybody else is a hybrid of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, so only certain features would be inherited, and others have gone through genetic mutations overtime.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    That's what I also hypothesised here and here.

    Central Asia appears to be the most likely place for Homo Sapiens-Neanderthal intermingling. Blond and red hair as well as blue eyes might well have come to Europe with the Indo-Europeans from the Eurasian plain. I think it is very probable that modern humans got fair skin, hair and eyes from Neanderthal in Central Asia around 45,000 years ago. These new hybrid modern humans would have belonged to Y-haplogroup K, who has spawned haplogroups L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S and T.

    L and T moved back to South and South-West Asia (T as far as North-East Africa). M and S went all the way to Australia and Papua. N moved north to Siberia, O east to East Asia. P, Q and R remained in Central Asia for many millennia, then Q moved to north-east Siberia and the Americas around 20,000 years ago. R1 and R2 developed in Central Asia. R2 moved to northern India and Pakistan. R1 split into R1a and R1b. R1a remained all over Central Asia, with a branch in the Pontic steppe. R1b moved to northern Mesopotamia and Anatolia, the rejoined the western R1a branch across the Caucasus. Their fusion gave birth to Indo-European culture and people, then expanded into Europe and back to Central and South Asia.

    That's a very brief and schematic summary of how Neanderthal genes spread all over Eurasia.

    As for why fair hair and eyes are not found among the first branches to depart from Central Asia (N, O and Q), there are several possibilities.

    1) N, O and Q people mixed early with another human population and lost the fair hair and eyes gene before expanding. My guess is that they mixed with another hybrid, of Homo Sapiens and the descendants of the Peking Man, which gave the Mongoloid features to East Asians, Siberians and Native Americans. These older Homo Sapiens in East Asia belonged to Y-haplogroup C and D. N, O and Q might have replaced them as paternal lineages for any of the reasons that R1a and R1b replaced older Y-lineages in Europe. I am increasingly in favour of a genetic predisposition for these haplogroups to father more boys.

    2) The fair hair and eyes mutations were not present in the people who migrated north and east from Central Asia. It was only inherited by another tribe, who later became the R people.

    3) The fair hair and eyes mutation did not come from Neanderthal but was a later independent happening.

    I think this is possible, they found another species "Denisovans ",but they need more DNA samples to construct the physical appearance of this 3rd human species found. A mysterious new species of human being who lived alongside our ancestors 30,000 years ago has been discovered by scientists.

    The cavemen, called Denisovans, were identified from DNA taken from a tooth and finger bone found in a cave in Siberia.

    They walked the Earth during the last Ice Age when modern humans were developing sophisticated stone tools, jewellery and art.

    The finding means there were at least three distinct members of the human family tree alive at the time - modern humans, Denisovans and Neanderthals.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...w-species.html
    Last edited by Minty; 02-07-16 at 11:25.



    桃李滿天下

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    Where is evidence is there that IJK came out of Africa? I haven't seen, just a politically correct slogan. The IJK population were likely always living next to the Neanderthals which they eventually out-competed. I can't think of a haplogroup least related sub-Sahara Africa than haplogroup I, the whole concept is laughable.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I guess that the more archaic Homo Sapien haplogroup CT is out of Africa that gave birth to all populations outside Africa.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_CT




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    Where is the proof that it ever came out of Africa? Haplogroup E most likely developed near Israel and migrated to Africa displacing obsolete hominids there. This out of Africa slogan is more of like a belief commandment.

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    So why do we consider Neanderthals extinct? Couldn't it have been that simply they became outnumbered by the other homo species and through 10s of 1,000s of years of mixing their isolated gene pool disappeared into the species we are today?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty View Post
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/20/sc...asia.html?_r=0

    According to the above article, researchers found a peculiar pattern in non-Africans: People in China, Japan and other East Asian countries have about 20 percent more Neanderthal DNA than do Europeans.

    The article also mentioned that most Neanderthal genes probably had modestly bad effects on the health of our ancestors, Dr. Sankararaman and other researchers have found. People who inherited a Neanderthal version of any given gene would have had fewer children on average than people with the human version.

    Then it went on and has informed us that If Neanderthals became extinct 40,000 years ago, they may have disappeared before Europeans and Asian populations genetically diverged. How could there have been Neanderthals left to interbreed with Asians a second time?

    It is conceivable that the extinction of the Neanderthals happened later in Asia. If that is true, there might yet be more recent Neanderthal fossils waiting to be discovered there.

    Or perhaps Asians interbred with some other group of humans that had interbred with Neanderthals and carried much of their DNA. Later, that group disappeared.

    “That’s a paradox the field needs to address,” Dr. Lohmueller said.


    Ok, so people in here are saying that Nordic ppl who have light features would therefore have the highest percentage of Neanderthals genomes. Well, apparently, this latest research have just debunked their theories. They are now saying that people in China, Japan and other East Asian countries have about 20 percent more Neanderthal DNA than do Europeans.

    Neanderthals have large heads according to the studies I have read. If you notice East Asian people do indeed have larger heads in comparison to their bodies unlike Caucasian and African people. East Asian people are also shorter on average than the other people, with the exception of Koreans and Northern Chinese. East Asians can appeared to be quiet light in skin colors, but do not have light hair or eyes unlike Caucasians. Anyway, they are saying except the indigenous Africans, everybody else is a hybrid of Neanderthals and Homo sapiens, so only certain features would be inherited, and others have gone through genetic mutations overtime.




    I think this is possible, they found another species "Denisovans ",but they need more DNA samples to construct the physical appearance of this 3rd human species found. A mysterious new species of human being who lived alongside our ancestors 30,000 years ago has been discovered by scientists.

    The cavemen, called Denisovans, were identified from DNA taken from a tooth and finger bone found in a cave in Siberia.

    They walked the Earth during the last Ice Age when modern humans were developing sophisticated stone tools, jewellery and art.

    The finding means there were at least three distinct members of the human family tree alive at the time - modern humans, Denisovans and Neanderthals.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...w-species.html

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    They wouldn't have been "humerthals", but if you really need a name only "Neandomagnons" because in hybrid species the name of the father makes the first part and the name of the mother the second part.

    And in order for this offspring and their descendants to have survived (and been incorporated in modern human/CroMagnon societies), their mothers would have had to be modern human/CroMagnon. Because if their mothers were Neanderthals, they would have disappeared with the predomianntly Neanderthal groups without modern human admixture.

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    http://www.heritagedaily.com/2016/12...of-2016/113678
    item 7 on this list is Neanderthal artwork/temple or what?
    But it shows that they had AMH concepts too.

    and the other items in the list are good too

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    I agree. Theory is nothing much, except being Politically Correct...

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    Since there is no link to any other Haplogroup...I* is direct Y-DNA descendant from male Neanderthal through Cro-Magnon female, right? They got blue eyes to survive harsh cold from Neanderthal and kept tan skin from mtDNA CroMagnon. Those Neanderthal male who couldn't find a CroMagnon 'wife' - got extinct. Modern I1 and all variations are the 'new Neanderthals' born by CroMagnon mothers and totally became CroMagnons Culturally later mating only with CroMagnon females...thousands of years of mutations and still Y-DNA Neanderthal.
    Isn't that wunderbar?
    I understand, it's just a speculation...
    and what a spectacular speculation.
    I hope we'll get solid genetic proof soon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenburg View Post
    Since there is no link to any other Haplogroup...I* is direct Y-DNA descendant from male Neanderthal through Cro-Magnon female, right? They got blue eyes to survive harsh cold from Neanderthal and kept tan skin from mtDNA CroMagnon. Those Neanderthal male who couldn't find a CroMagnon 'wife' - got extinct. Modern I1 and all variations are the 'new Neanderthals' born by CroMagnon mothers and totally became CroMagnons Culturally later mating only with CroMagnon females...thousands of years of mutations and still Y-DNA Neanderthal.
    Isn't that wunderbar?
    I understand, it's just a speculation...
    and what a spectacular speculation.
    I hope we'll get solid genetic proof soon.
    Please read this thread from start and find other threads about neanderthals on Eupedia. We discussed all of it in relation to newest research.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    I have 1.5% neatherthal and 3.3% Denisovan ...........is there a central-asian link on having both of these ancient ?

    I cannot recall Denisovan ever reaching modern Iran or the Ural mountains

    Data via both natgeno2 and havard
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnenburg View Post
    Since there is no link to any other Haplogroup...I* is direct Y-DNA descendant from male Neanderthal through Cro-Magnon female, right?
    Not a chance. Haplogroup I is deeply nested within modern human Y DNA.

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    I know that blood type and haplotype show little-to-no correlation. But do we have any way of knowing what blood type or types were prevalent among the various subspecies of Neanderthal?

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    I know that blood type and haplotype show little-to-no correlation. But do we have any way of knowing what blood type or types were prevalent among the various subspecies of Neanderthal?
    Embrace autosomal DNA. It is so much telling than Y hg or blood type.
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    I have autosomal results from Ancestry.com and FamilyTreeDNA. Perhaps I'm simply ignorant as to what I'm supposed to be looking for, but all it seems to give me is some vague indication of my geographical heritage. It says nothing of my genetic links to Neanderthals. Or am I missing something?

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    I've never done this myself, but I'm positive that there is published neanderthal genome, or neanderthal genes which are in people. You can compare it to yours to see which genes you have. Many of them function is known.
    Also you can use GedMatch for some quick comparisons. They have Neanderthal kit # F999902
    https://www.gedmatch.com/login1.php
    Be wary of people who tend to glorify the past, underestimate presence, and demonize the future.

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    The specimens examined in Spain were blood type O. No rh factor specified.
    http://rhesusnegative.net/origins/neanderthals/
    The Denisovans, according to the Max Planck Institute, were not only rh positive, but +/+ genotype wise:
    The Denisova and Altai Neandertal are homozygous for the ancestral “A” variant at position 25629943 on chromosome 1 that determines rhesus type in modern humans. This variant means that both are likely rhesus positive.

    ... from the informative position that determines
    rhesus type in humans, both are homozygous rhesus positive.



    Quote Originally Posted by stevenarmstrong View Post
    I know that blood type and haplotype show little-to-no correlation. But do we have any way of knowing what blood type or types were prevalent among the various subspecies of Neanderthal?
    I am curious:
    HOW do you know this?

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