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Thread: Genetic make-up of France

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    Well.. France is named after the tribe called "Franks". But they were only the ruling class in the north of France. I guess most French originate from celtic origin.
    The South has been influenced by the Roman period, so you could call that Gallo-Roman.

    Especially the Languedoc in the south happened to wealthy and nice to live in.
    The northerners saw that with envy. So they started to plunder the south.
    And they called that a crusade against the Cathars.

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    Country: France



    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    And what are they considered?

    it's an outdated stereotype that goes back to the time were southern French people spoke OC languages (like Catalan, Provençal) while OIL languages were spoke in the North. Standard French is an OIL Language.

    Then there are cultural diffrence. In northern France they used to cook with butter while in the South they cooked with Olive Oil.
    I Know that when Nice was annexed to France in 1860, they built a gothic Cathedral because it looked more "French".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    In Italy we call French "our cousins beyond the Alps". I dunno if they share this point of view. We do it becouse French Celts and Northern Italian Celts were the same people (Gauls) and Roman historicians proved that they continued to have contacts and to help each others againts Rome.
    Corsica was Italian until the XVIII century, when Tuscany sold the Isle to France. Corses, yet, still remain ethnically Italians.
    End endly, Southern France is close in history to Italy. We feel not so similar to Normans, Bretons, Alacians, but Southern France, in particular Provence, is considered the twin of Italy.
    The map confirms that parts of France are close to Northern Italy (violet) and other to central Italy (red).
    Btw I'd like to visit Provence this summer to see if the atmosphere is really Latin. :P
    I think that it's not Southern France in general but South Eastern France that is close to Italian culture. French Alp are quite close to Piedmont. Historically, Savoy and Nice belong to the House of Savoy that unified Italy. French was once spoken in Val d'Aoste (Piedmont)
    French riviera and Italian Riviera belonged to Liguria in ancient time.
    Lombardy was part of Cisalpine Gaul so many of the people there must have French descent. Milano was founded by the Gauls.

    And yes Provence is very Latin. I think it's even more southern italy than Northern Italy.

    BTW, South West France is very different

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    Quote Originally Posted by spongetaro View Post
    I think that it's not Southern France in general but South Eastern France that is close to Italian culture. French Alp are quite close to Piedmont. Historically, Savoy and Nice belong to the House of Savoy that unified Italy. French was once spoken in Val d'Aoste (Piedmont)
    French riviera and Italian Riviera belonged to Liguria in ancient time.
    Lombardy was part of Cisalpine Gaul so many of the people there must have French descent. Milano was founded by the Gauls.

    And yes Provence is very Latin. I think it's even more southern italy than Northern Italy.

    BTW, South West France is very different


    In Valle D'Aosta/Vallée d'Aoste there's a bilinguistic status, people speak both Italian and French and also if you want to obtain a public job or a degree you must speak both the languages. Piedmont is an other region, 100% Italian and there nobody speaks French, but the aristocracy of Piedmont are mostly of French stock, now mixed with Italians.

    I agree that South-East France, Provence and Languedoc, are very Italian, and actually I am almost sure that I'll go there this summer. I want to visit Avignone, Nizze, etc.etc. Italian literature was highly influenced by Provencal literature.

    And how's South-West France? In Italy South East France is as famous and prestigious as South West is ignote.



    In my opinion to be pretty Italian are Languedoc, Provence, Lyon and Corse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    And how's South-West France? In Italy South East France is as famous and prestigious as South West is ignote.
    South-West France has Bordeaux, Biarritz, the Dordogne region (one of the most beautiful region in France), Rocamadour, Toulouse, Carcassone... It's not as good as the South-East for beaches, but better for wine, foie gras, Paleolithic caves and mysterious places.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    South-West France... It's not as good as the South-East for beaches, but better for wine, foie gras, Paleolithic caves and mysterious places.
    Has anyone here researched the hypotheses that the Solutrean people of South-West France brought the Clovis type arrowhead to North-America during the last Ice Age?

    The American PBS station did a show about it with the transcript here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcr..._stoneage.html

    What is new is that there is now DNA to link the mtDNA of the Ojibwa of North-America to Europe.

    NARRATOR: But Stanford argues that crucial evidence is missing, submerged under 300 feet of wateras rising sea levels inundated the Solutrean coastline at the end of the Ice Age.
    The debate raged on, with arguments for and against the Solutrean theory. Then came evidence that, again, seemed like it might end the battle: DNA.
    It was the latest report from colleagues of Doug Wallace who were investigating early human migrations. They were puzzling over mitochondrial DNA samples from a Native American tribe called the Ojibwa.
    DOUGLAS WALLACE: When we studied the mitochondrial DNA of the Ojibwa we found, as we had anticipated, the four primary lineages—A, B, C and D—but there was about a quarter of the mitochondrial DNAs that was not A, B, C and D.
    NARRATOR: There was a fifth source of DNA of mysterious origin. They called it X, and unlike A, B, C and D, they couldn't find it anywhere in Siberia or eastern Asia. But it was similar to an uncommon lineage in European populations today. At first, they thought it must be the result of interracial breeding within the last 500 years, sometime after Columbus.
    DOUGLAS WALLACE: We naturally assumed that perhaps there had been European recent mixture with the Ojibwa tribe and that some European women had married into the Ojibwa tribe and contributed their mitochondrial DNAs.
    NARRATOR: But that assumption proved wrong. When they looked at the amount of variation in the X lineage, it pointed to an origin long before Columbus, in fact, to at least 15,000 years ago. It appeared to be evidence of Ice Age Europeans in America.
    DOUGLAS WALLACE: Well, what it says is that a mitochondrial lineage that is predominantly found in Europe somehow got to the Great Lakes region of the Americas 14,000 to 15,000 years ago.
    NARRATOR: Could X be genetic evidence of the Solutreans in America? Further investigation raised another possibility. The ancient X lineage may have existed in Siberia, but died out, though not before coming over to America with Ancient migrations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post

    And how's South-West France? In Italy South East France is as famous and prestigious as South West is ignote.

    In South East France (Marseille, Nice, Provence) Food is a bite more like Italian food(sea food, olive oil, legume) while in South West Food is much what you would expect as "French" food (foie gras, truffe etc).

    South West French people are a bit stronger than South Eastern French. Almost all clubs of French Rugby League (which is the Best in Europe) are located in South West France. In South East France (especially Marseille and Monaco), football is much popular.

    There is a region in South West France called Dordogne were there are so many English settlers that they are almost as numerous as the local inhabitants. In South East France there are also British settlers, but also many Italians and Russian oligarchs.

    Two Presidents of the Fift Republic originated from South West France (Jacques Chirac and François Mitterand) and ruled France for 26 years from 1981 to 2007

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    Oddly, Spanish Catalonia and Spanish Basque country parctice football (the first especially) While French Catalonia and French Basque country are bad in Football but have among the best Rugby team in Europe (Biarritz and Perpignan)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    France is an ethnically complex country. It is the largest country in Europe.
    A very common mistake peoples make is to think the Europe is the same thing as European Union...But, in fact, Europe =/= European Union. I guess that mistake is made in the quoted assertion.

    Biggest country in Europe is Russia... France is 5th or 3th depending if you ignore or include countries like Kazakhstan & Turkey...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    If you wish. Paris is not really northern. For me northern France is any north of Paris.

    North-central France, he was right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sybilla View Post
    In my opinion to be pretty Italian are Languedoc, Provence, Lyon and Corse.
    Corsican is an Italian language, not French. Corsican language derives from Old Tuscan, with strong influences from Ligurian and southern dialects.

    While Languedoc and Provence are stricly connected with Gallo-Italic dialects spoken in Western-Northern Italy. Especially, Piedmontese and, probably, Ligurian, Lombard, Emilian.

    I don't think Piedmontese are 100% italian. Many piedmontese people share same heritage of Eastern-Southern French. In some western Piedmontese valleys and Aosta Valley French influence is stronger, even today. Valdôtain spoken in Aosta Valley is a form of Franco-Provençal.

    In Italy you can find deep French influences in South Italy too. In some communities in Apulia (Franco-Provençal), in Guardia Piemontese in Calabria (Occitan), in Basilicata (Gallo-Italic of Basilicata), in Sicily (Gallo-Italic of Sicily).

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    Nations less ethnically diverse than the French (based on mtDNA, Y chromosome and other markers):

    Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Spain.

    I'm sure many others, those are the ones I'm currently reviewing recent research on. There are websites with piecharts, etc. I don't have them handy on this computer.

    The "real" French may or may not live in remote villages. I'd need to hear a definition of "real" to comment. Certainly, people from Brittany regard themselves as somewhat apart from the rest of France (and they do have different percentages of alleles that statistically significant - although not each and every individual does, of course).

    And there are many, many people in the Loire Valley whose Y chromosomes go way way back - there are a few I-people still left in France - but does that make them "more real" than a cousin who is R?

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    Don't we need to call these southern French languages Occitan of which catalan is a close cousin!

    Currently in Cittadella, Veneto , there is a yearly festival with the catalans joining in to share their similar languages and some customs.

    maybe this goes back to when the Venetian republic and the kingdom of Aragon traded together in Greece.

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    My Family came from the Saintongs region of France former land of the Santone tribe but like the Pictones they became Romanized . The Santones even built a fleet of ships for the Roman invasion of England it's hard to pin point modern Celtic populations when it seems they would adapt to a invading culture some not all

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    My Family came from the Saintongs region of France former land of the Santone tribe but like the Pictones they became Romanized . The Santones even built a fleet of ships for the Roman invasion of England it's hard to pin point modern Celtic populations when it seems they would adapt to a invading culture some not all
    Same here, for my (tiny as a part of my ancestry... about 1/250 parts) French side. Do you know that your family is ancient in Saintonge? It was very much a gathering place for Huguenots from all over Western France; many came from areas that were not particularly close to settle near the secure walls of La Rochelle. I descend from a family that certainly was in Saintonge at the time that they emigrated, but their surname indicates that they may have more anciently lived in Haute Bretagne.

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    The world surname profiler shows the name of Brousse in higher numbers in the Limousin area. I really don't know you can look at my 8th Great Grandfathers Marriage certificate it's all I have to go on in France

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    8th Great Grandfathers certificate dated 1690
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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    The world surname profiler shows the name of Brousse in higher numbers in the Limousin area. I really don't know you can look at my 8th Great Grandfathers Marriage certificate it's all I have to go on in France
    I will try to get you links from my cousin in Toulouse. I cannot promise anything because we can only communicate in writing with he writing in occitan and me writing in venetian. ( about 70% interchangeable).
    Toulouse was also in the centre of Hugenot history

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    Can anyone translate the certificate in full for me? I can understand some of it but not all Thanks in advance

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    1 out of 1 members found this post helpful.
    I have a little trouble with the handwriting, and maybe spelling -- not so much with the French, but it's pretty straightforward except for a few words. It's from the parish register of a refugee church, isn't it? Anyway, if you go to Google Maps and enter Saint-Césaire, France for your search, then scale the map so that 5 kilometers is about an inch -- Taillebourg is northwest, and Cognac southeast, in that view. Homes of the bride and groom, before they became refugees.

    Here's a draft:

    On Sunday thirtieth of March 1690: were presented to the Consistory of this church: Jacques Brousse, Merchant Tanner, son of Elie Brousse and Marthe Allanes, Merchant of the town of Cognac in Saintonge, and Sarra Cornu, daughter of Daniel Cornu and Marie Garnier of the town of Taillebourg, also in Saintonge in the Kingdom of France. Who have requested us to have published in the Temple the news of their Marriage and of the Blessing, pursuant to the Discipline of our Churches. We have agreed to this their announcement with a good heart, in the presence of Jean Tartarin, M(aster?) cooper, and of Mathias Chaigneau, Merchant. All refugees in this town, who have all signed: J. Brousse, Tartarin J., Sara Cornu, M. Chaigneau.
    Last edited by razyn; 13-03-12 at 22:45. Reason: Added the text in English.

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    Thanks a million yes this document was found in London in the archives of the old Huguenot church . Jacques Brousse must have had some pull. In Manikin town he was elected Vestryman and went to plead the case for more supplies for the settlement to survive the winter. There are nobles listed in this group they never would have allowed a commoner to speak for them. Johnny Depp's 7th or 8th Great Grandfather was also in this group. I found naturalization records that shows in 1704 Jacques Brousse became James Bruce which is our surname and his son Perrier became Peter Bruce. These Protestant French could not live in any French colony so we retained none of our French heritage Like they did in Louisiana.

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    Quote Originally Posted by L.D.Brousse View Post
    These Protestant French could not live in any French colony so we retained none of our French heritage Like they did in Louisiana.
    True for the most part. It's interesting that the French Reformed Church no longer survives as a denomination in the US, whereas all of the other ethnic Reformed denominations seem to be doing fine. The German Reformed Church, although it merged mostly into the UCC, still exists in its old ethnic form as the RCUS. The Dutch Reformed Church has two large remnants in the RCA and the CRCNA. Congregationalist and Presbyterian churches are common, representing mainly the English and Scottish Calvinists, respectively. But nothing exists anymore in the US in direct continuity with the Huguenots, save some independent churches, like the Huguenot Church in Charleston, South Carolina.

    Of course, there are still Huguenot heritage organizations in the US, like the Huguenot Society of America, the National Huguenot Society, and the Huguenot Society of the Founders of Manakin in the Colony of Virginia. And I'd add that cultural preservation wasn't really the goal of the Huguenot refugees. I don't know if you are, but if you're Protestant, or especially Calvinist, then you've succeeded in preserving what they would have actually felt to be important to preserve.

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    I'm Southern Baptist My 5Th Great Grandfathers brother Philip Bruce was a famous Methodist preacher he rode with the Bishop Asbury and was a chaplain at the battle of Kings mountain my 5th Great Grandfather Arnold Bruce fought in the war as well with Col. Ambros Ramsey orange county NC militia but he was not well know like his brother.In the Bishop Asbury's papers on line it has many stories about run ins Philip had with the local Torries and some of Tarleton's troop
    Last edited by L.D.Brousse; 15-03-12 at 21:26.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sparkey View Post
    Same here, for my (tiny as a part of my ancestry... about 1/250 parts) French side. Do you know that your family is ancient in Saintonge? It was very much a gathering place for Huguenots from all over Western France; many came from areas that were not particularly close to settle near the secure walls of La Rochelle. I descend from a family that certainly was in Saintonge at the time that they emigrated, but their surname indicates that they may have more anciently lived in Haute Bretagne.
    Sparky you seem to know about Huguenot history so I will present this question to you:

    My ancestors Pigmon/Pimond were always said to be French and I am finding out that after around 1620 they left France to go to Hunstanton, Norfolk, England where the name is spelled Pigman. In France Pigmon is (even today) being indexed as Pimond. I find most of the family in the area of Pimond, Chanac-Les-Mines, Correze, Limousin but some are in Rhone-Alpes. I have also found in the 1600's some Pimond in the La Rochelle area. I have searched to no avail for many years on ship passenger lists. Is there any way of finding (Huguenot?) records on my family who may have come from LaRochelle to Hunstanton and Norwich, Norfolk and then in the late 1600's to the U.S. colonies?

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    3/4 Colonial American, 1/8 Cornish, 1/8 Welsh
    Country: USA - California



    Quote Originally Posted by Pi gman View Post
    Sparky you seem to know about Huguenot history so I will present this question to you:

    My ancestors Pigmon/Pimond were always said to be French and I am finding out that after around 1620 they left France to go to Hunstanton, Norfolk, England where the name is spelled Pigman. In France Pigmon is (even today) being indexed as Pimond. I find most of the family in the area of Pimond, Chanac-Les-Mines, Correze, Limousin but some are in Rhone-Alpes. I have also found in the 1600's some Pimond in the La Rochelle area. I have searched to no avail for many years on ship passenger lists. Is there any way of finding (Huguenot?) records on my family who may have come from LaRochelle to Hunstanton and Norwich, Norfolk and then in the late 1600's to the U.S. colonies?
    In general, you have to hope for a stroke of luck that there is a surviving passenger list with your ancestor on it. Here are some examples: Mary & Ann, Peter & Anthony, and Nassau. I didn't see any Pimond/Pigmon passengers on those, though. Many Huguenots can't be traced all the way back to France. A useful tool for figuring out where they may have originally come from is Geopatonyme, although it seems you have already done your homework with respect to where the Pimond family is based out of (clearly Corrèze).

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