Genetic make-up of Europe

[Maciamo]

Maciamo what do you think about this table I've made:

Most Greco-Neolithic countries in Europe (E1b1b + J2 + G2a):

1. Greece: around 51%
2. Albania: around 48%
3. Bulgaria: around 45%
4. Rep. Macedonia: around 41%
5. Italy: around 37%
6. Romania & Austria: around 30%
7. Portugal: around 29%
8. Serbia: around 27%
9. Hungary: around 25%
10. Bosnia: around 22%

I suppose you have made the total of (E1b1b + J2 + G2a based on my Y-DNA frequency table. The only problem is that we still don't know for sure that all E1b1b and J2 are or Neolithic origin. Most of the European E1b1b could be Paleolithic/Mesolithic or Neolthic or both. But some could even be more recent than that. As for J2, I think that it could have come partly during Neolithic, but mostly during the Bronze Age and Iron Age (or at least expanded from Greece and Anatolia during that period). I also think that a lot of European J1 and T could be Neolithic.

[how yes no 3]

Maciamo what do you think about this table I've made:

Most Greco-Neolithic countries in Europe (E1b1b + J2 + G2a):

1. Greece: around 51%
2. Albania: around 48%
3. Bulgaria: around 45%
4. Rep. Macedonia: around 41%
5. Italy: around 37%
6. Romania & Austria: around 30%
7. Portugal: around 29%
8. Serbia: around 27%
9. Hungary: around 25%
10. Bosnia: around 22%

I think some of G may be older...ancient DNA samples consistently show it in Europe...and there is also much later some G that came to Europe with Alans.. so it is not correct to lump all G together into greco-neolithic spread...

G2a is also most frequent in Europe (together with I2a1) in Sardinia that is considered to be genetic isolate...

look at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...x?section=ymap

there all 3 G samples from Serbia are G1 (2 times G1c and once G1a)..G1c is in their database found only in east Europe (Poland, Baltic countries, Belarus and Ukraine) while G1a is in their database found in several clusters (one in Baltic/Belarus/Poland, and others sparse but in various unrelated places including Asia minor, Italy, Spain, Germany) ... the last study on population from Serbia finds 5.8% of G2a in Serbia and no G1

in Slovenia/north Croatia yfamilytreedna shows cluster of G2a3

it would be also interesting to have separate maps for J2a and J2b

[zanipolo]

I suppose you have made the total of (E1b1b + J2 + G2a based on my Y-DNA frequency table. The only problem is that we still don't know for sure that all E1b1b and J2 are or Neolithic origin. Most of the European E1b1b could be Paleolithic/Mesolithic or Neolthic or both. But some could even be more recent than that. As for J2, I think that it could have come partly during Neolithic, but mostly during the Bronze Age and Iron Age (or at least expanded from Greece and Anatolia during that period). I also think that a lot of European J1 and T could be Neolithic.

i think this "system" of dalecooper has some merits in determining genetics trends between neighbours.
as an example, i would next use J2+G2a+I2a , and slowly move in different directions to finally have a europe map which overlays each other with these major haplotypes.

The given example already states after the first 3 nations are clear seperation from the 4th and onwards

[Savant]

Well, this means that Croatians are by genetic THE oldest Europeans :)

Actually, no. It doesn't mean that at all...

[Savant]

Not if Bosnia is included.

Oh internet....First of all you'e conflating yDNA haplogroups with whole genome ancestry, big mistake. A couple of Balkan states have high amounts of I2a, which is certainly a Paleolithic haplogroup. However the overwhelming majority of Balkan genetic input is of Indo-European, Neolithic origin, not Paleolithic, and Balkans whether Bosnian or Croatian are in no way the most Paleolithic population of Europe.

[Alan]

So people, what do you think about video I've made and uploaded to youtube? here it is:


As "non-european" HG's I've named HG's such as J1, Q, T & H... means all of HG's which are present in Europe just in last 1000 or 2000 years... so don't take this term "european and noneuropean" as somethin racist, I hope you understand :)

J1, G2 and R1b are Neolthic, R1a and J2 are Bronze age immigrants. E1b1b* and I* are probably paleolithic/mesolthic.

[Knovas]

I am not sure about G2a being entirely Neolithic, some or even more than expected could be much older.

[Taranis]

I am not sure about G2a being entirely Neolithic, some or even more than expected could be much older.

There's also the question of where in Europe a Haplogroup is how old. Other people made the valid points before that for instance although R1b and R1a both appear to be in Central Europe (and hence Western) since the Copper/Bronze Age, there's the fair possibility that R1b was already on the Balkans during the Neolithic while R1a may have been lurking in Eastern Europe at the same time period.

[MOESAN]

outside remark: two problems of definition: some examples:
neolitihic: time or economy-culture?
neolithic, paleo, meso, bronze, iron etc... where? a HG can be 'paleo- old' here and 'bronze age old' there...
it is of worth precising the place AND the time

[Alan]

I am not sure about G2a being entirely Neolithic, some or even more than expected could be much older.

Your right. I, G2, E1b1b paleolithic. J1, R1b Neolthic and J2, R1a, T Bronze age immigrants. The correlation between J1 and R1b in West Asia is also interesting. Lezgians high in J1 and R1b, Assyrians high in J1 and R1b, Kurds and Armenians high in R1b with notable presence of J1 (~10%).

[sparkey]

Your right. I, G2, E1b1b paleolithic.

Would you be able to place G2 and E1b subclades on a map like I've done with I? E1b seems to be a possible fit in Southern Europe, where Haplogroup I didn't extend, but I haven't observed an obvious Paleolithic/Mesolithic pattern for G2. That makes me think that some E1b in Europe is at least Mesolithic, but for G2, I'd like to explore that hypothesis with greater precision before coming to a conclusion.

R1a... Bronze age immigrants.

Does that mean you're disassociating R1a from Corded Ware culture? Because it began in the late Neolithic, and the only ancient YDNA samples we have from Corded Ware turned out to be R1a.

The correlation between J1 and R1b in West Asia is also interesting. Lezgians high in J1 and R1b, Assyrians high in J1 and R1b, Kurds and Armenians high in R1b with notable presence of J1 (~10%).

The nearness of Assyrian-type R1b (L23+ L150+ L51-) to Western/Central European R1b (L23+ L150+ L51+) is really intriguing. They're closer to each other than either is to Southeast European-type R1b (L23+ L150- L51-).

[julia90]

Map created by me, with my personal view about the genetic of europe

[Mzungu mchagga]

Map created by me, with my personal view about the genetic of europe

What do the colors stand for?

[julia90]

Blue North west european."Celts"

Red south western europeans, the most south western ones are sardineans

Green south eastern european-higher west asians genes

Yellow germanic-scandinavian nordics

Purple "Slavics"

[Alan]

Would you be able to place G2 and E1b subclades on a map like I've done with I? E1b seems to be a possible fit in Southern Europe, where Haplogroup I didn't extend, but I haven't observed an obvious Paleolithic/Mesolithic pattern for G2. That makes me think that some E1b in Europe is at least Mesolithic, but for G2, I'd like to explore that hypothesis with greater precision before coming to a conclusion.



Does that mean you're disassociating R1a from Corded Ware culture? Because it began in the late Neolithic, and the only ancient YDNA samples we have from Corded Ware turned out to be R1a.



The nearness of Assyrian-type R1b (L23+ L150+ L51-) to Western/Central European R1b (L23+ L150+ L51+) is really intriguing. They're closer to each other than either is to Southeast European-type R1b (L23+ L150- L51-).

Sorry for my sooo late response. I had some of my exams and when I was online from time to time I didnt wanted to login here otherwise I knew I would stay longer as I should and couldnt learn as much as I wanted.



Well I always thought E1b might be mesolithic maybe even paleolithic in Europe. I just stated it is Neolthic because most people thing of it like this.

About R1a I always thought it came by Bronze age. If the findings of R1a are older and indeed from Neolthic times this gives me another hint that Indo-European language might very well be linked to Neolthic revolution. As we all know at late Neolthic the Hunthers and Gatherers from the Steppes and East Europe had already adopted pastoralism, who knows maybe they also adopted the Indo- European language from these Shepherds.